Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello,
   As I read through many of the threads the idea that religion was a private matter was a common idea. My hope for this thread is to discuss the idea of religion being private rather then public. My response will attempt to offer a Christian perspective on this issue. I will attempt to show how the Christian scriptures (if assumed to be true) teach a public faith and also show how making Christians have a private religion will have a significantly negative impact on society.
   When one takes time to examine the Christian scriptures they will find a substantial amount of evidence towards a public faith. Take for example the words of Jesus in Matthew 28:19. "19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." This verse clearly illustrates a public faith. According to the words of Jesus his message was for all. Again, if we look to the early church (Book of Acts) we can find the early Christians spreading the gospel from Jerusalem to Rome. The Christian scriptures give a clear command to share the gospel.
   Earlier I stated that if Christians stopped sharing the gospel (both in word and deed) there would be a significant negative impact on society. Before I address this I want to briefly state why Christians do what we do. Colossians 3:17 commands us to do whatever we do in the name of Jesus Christ and give honor to him in doing so. We do what we do out of a response from what Jesus has done for us. By telling Christians to keep their faith private is to tell them not to give honor to Jesus for what they are doing. For Christianity we can not separate our secular from sacred. The word and deed of Christians should be focused on furthering the kingdom of God. If we take Jesus out of what we do we have no reason to do anything that we do.
   To show the impact of what will happen I will briefly mention a few things the Salvation Army in the name of Jesus Christ and does it only because of Jesus.
-It work to fight against human trafficking
-relief it provided for 9/11
-offering comfort (food, counseling, shelter) to fire fighters and those evacuated from buildings on fire
-much more on both a large and small scale all around the world
   In writing this post I understand that humanity (Christians) have done much harm under the Christian banner in the public view. Regardless of any organization, faith based or not, it will have both a negative and positive effect on society. It is my thought that if Christians are forced to live a life of private worship the many great things done through Christianity will be lost and will have a negative impact on society. In writing this I do not excuse Christians for being disrespectful, ignorant, and cruel or any other inappropriate practices. I write this post with an attempt to offer a Christian perspective on the idea of private religion. If you feel I have at all used poor biblical study please feel free to challenge my interpretations. I look forward to reading and discussing further responses. I apologize for the length of my post.
      James

James,

What IS "the gospel"?  What is the thing that must be shared?

Cindi

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 11, 2007, 10:32:35 PM
Take for example the words of Jesus in Matthew 28:19. "19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

"teach"... "baptize"... do you place your emphasis in this verse on the willing and eager student who wants to listen and learn or do you stop at "go and make"?

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 11, 2007, 10:32:35 PMAgain, if we look to the early church (Book of Acts) we can find the early Christians spreading the gospel from Jerusalem to Rome. The Christian scriptures give a clear command to share the gospel.

Since you failed to quote a specific example should we look at Paul who converted the jailer after he was asked why he didn't leave escape prison? Do you feel your religion teaches you you must thrust it upon others or does it teach you to live by example so people will ask you why you are different? The word "share" doesn't mean you have to force it on the unwilling.

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 11, 2007, 10:32:35 PMEarlier I stated that if Christians stopped sharing the gospel (both in word and deed) there would be a significant negative impact on society. Before I address this I want to briefly state why Christians do what we do. Colossians 3:17 commands us to do whatever we do in the name of Jesus Christ and give honor to him in doing so. We do what we do out of a response from what Jesus has done for us. By telling Christians to keep their faith private is to tell them not to give honor to Jesus for what they are doing. For Christianity we can not separate our secular from sacred. The word and deed of Christians should be focused on furthering the kingdom of God. If we take Jesus out of what we do we have no reason to do anything that we do.
   To show the impact of what will happen I will briefly mention a few things the Salvation Army in the name of Jesus Christ and does it only because of Jesus.
-It work to fight against human trafficking
-relief it provided for 9/11
-offering comfort (food, counseling, shelter) to fire fighters and those evacuated from buildings on fire
-much more on both a large and small scale all around the world

Are you a member? How do you spend your time serving through this organization?

You tell us why we should tolerate you forcing your religion on us by using scripture.(2 verses lol) How have you applied this passage to your life?

Quote from: Matthew 19:16-21
   16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

   17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

   18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

   19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

   20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

   21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Religion should be an utterly private thing.

You quote the Bible to prove your point as if it has any modicum of truth in it. However, there are contrasing views on this subject. I think the bible is a bunch of random nonsense used to control people socially.

You then quote a few good things Christians do. I would like to point out a contrasing list...
YOU SAY- Christian organazations fought human trafficking
I SAY - Christians were the primary force behind slavery

YOU SAY- Christian organazations provided relief on 9/11
I SAY - Christan organazations CAUSED 9/11 by helping Bush get elected

YOU SAY - Christian organizations offered food, counseling and, shelter to the needy
I SAY - It's hard to critisize that one.

I also think that if religion were a private issue, transsexuality would be talked about from more of a scientific basis - and perhaps we could get the health care we need.

Just an agnostic's perspective,
Bri

Quote from: Brianna on January 11, 2007, 11:34:35 PM
YOU SAY - Christian organizations offered food, counseling and, shelter to the needy
I SAY - It's hard to critisize that one.

Christian organizations tell the needy their need is punishment for sin.

Christian organizations tell desperate girls they shouldn't have had sex now they have to be a mother.

Christians offer GLBT people rejection and condemnation.

It's hard to say reducing the influence of christiantity on the world would be a bad thing when there are so many counter examples. Every good thing cited for the salvation army is also done by secular organizations but without the religious baggage like the above.

hello,
      Thanks for the responses. Just to make a few comments. I would like to respond to this comment.
"You tell us why we should tolerate you forcing your religion on us by using scripture.(2 verses lol) How have you applied this passage to your life?" The reason I did not use more then two was due to room. I did not want to make my post longer. If you want more I can find you more. In regard to the membership question the answer is yes. I belong to inner city corp "church" in winnipeg and bi-weekly help the friday night soup kitchen. (this is limited due to school) Growing up I have seen and experienced what the Salvation does for people. It is for this reason I choose the army.

you say-Christian were the primary force behind slavery. Please find a reference to this claim. I know they justified it but it was much more then the christians who brought slavery in, it was a cultural mindset.
you say- Christians organizations caused 9/11 by voting in bush. prove to me that 9/11 happened because of bush. I don't think the talaban thought to themselves will if kerry wins we won't attack. This simply is an outrages claim until further proof is displayed.

Cindi Jones, the gospel means "good news" The good news as a christian will describe is that Jesus came to give us life. (both physically and spiritually) A prominant Christian thinker said "Christ did not come to make bad people good but to make the dead live agian." I know this is a short answer and I would be willing to answer any questions you have regarding it. Thanks for the post. Its good to discuss these things openly. Thanks for the oppurtunity.
      James

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 11, 2007, 11:58:50 PM

"You tell us why we should tolerate you forcing your religion on us by using scripture.(2 verses lol) How have you applied this passage to your life?" The reason I did not use more then two was due to room. I did not want to make my post longer. If you want more I can find you more. In regard to the membership question the answer is yes. I belong to inner city corp "church" in winnipeg and bi-weekly help the friday night soup kitchen. (this is limited due to school) Growing up I have seen and experienced what the Salvation does for people. It is for this reason I choose the army.

your idea of applying "go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." to your life is serving soup twice a month?

Quote from: Mark 12:41-44
41And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Two nights a month which side of this example would Jesus place you on and why?

James,

"Good news" is good.  Love is good.  Openess, sharing, and charity are all good.  Please share those things.

Please remember that this is a support site for transgendered people.  Some of us have been highly ridiculed and persecuted as modern day lepers by religious oranizations and their constituents.  Many members here are outstanding members of their faiths whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewsih, Budist, Hari Krishna, Wiki, Druid, Atheist and others.  I can personally vouch that many are better "Christians" in action than most Christians I know in the general public, regardless of the faith they identify with.

Christ taught unconditional love and acceptance.  Very few have a tolerance for different people in our society these days.  We who have suffered at the hands of zealots are all too sensitive when we start to hear someone spout scripture out of the gate.

Where you can share your opinions to help uplift those of us who have nothing, who have been discarded from their families, who have been sent packing from their lifelong faith, we heartily weclome you.  But please, if your intent is to preach a religion here, we've seen it, heard it, and experienced it first hand.

And for everyone else... let's cool down a little and return to a less combative conversation.

Chin up!

Cindi

i think that what is inaccurate with christianity is that the christian god is [not] bipolar.

most all other gods have a dualistic aspect to them, they [create], and they [destroy]. christianity has just moved god's more destructive traits to an altogether different entity, satan.

everything in the bible is so paradoxical that frightens me.

[my coughed up source]


http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

hello, response to cindi jones
       I would first like to assure my intent is not to preach the christian gospel. All I am trying to do is defend and explain the christian perspective. If I start making false claims about TG people someone will step up and defend what is true. I've seen this happen on a comment when someone said all TG were gay and someone replied they aren't. Why is that when I offer a christian perspective supported by many scholars and Christian thinkers. Just as you said that some TG get sensative when hearing scripture I likewise get sensative/defensive when, what I believe to be true (christian scriptures) gets mocked, riduculed and misreprensented to suit ones personal view point. It has in no way been my intent to justify or support the practice of christians who attack, degrate, accuse, harm, etc... any people in society. If my message has in anyway encouraged the practice of such behavior I strongly apoplogize.


"Two nights a month which side of this example would Jesus place you on and why?" As much as I enjoy to answer (to the best of my ability) questions I would like to pass on this one. My reason for this is that no matter which way I answer i'll appear either as a self-righteous christian or a hypocrite who says one thing and does the other.

My intent is not in preaching the christian gospel but instead to challlange the many assumptions about the christian faith that are said to be true. My apologies for any harsh words or claims.
       James

Dear James,

This is a transgender support issue site. All are welcome here, as long as they follow the rules.

It would be all but impossible for me to have a more negative impression of Christianity - yet I do feel there there are exceptions. I'll count you among them, on a basis of not having information to the contrary.

That said, Cindy is right. I feel your prostletizing is innapropriate here.

Your faith algedly teaches love and acceptance for all. Mazel Tov. Perhaps you should redirect your efforts twords Christians that are denying me civil rights, cheerleading the American genocide in Iraq, and slandering the GLBT community.

Bri

James, please realize that many of us were in fact raised in the Christian religion, but because of the treatment and hypocrisy that is portrayed by many of it's followers, it has given us a really bad taste.  I myself was raised in the christian religion and when I came out as TS, I realized that many of the things I was taught became contrary to reality.

Regarding christian intolerance from those different than me, I have many emails that actually demonstrate this.  It hurts being told that those christians you thought loved you unconditionally suddenly tell you to stay away and out of their lives because you are a "deviant" and you "chose this lifestyle" and that it's a "perversion".

They say actions speak louder than words.  Christians say they are loving, but their actions say different, so the true message comes in loud and clear.

P.S. Don't quote the bible to support that Christianity is the right religion.  It is very biased and you will find almost all major religions say they are the only right one and to "spread the word".

Melissa

Hello James,


                I first want to say you have always been gracious, polite and considerate of everyones feelings here.  Your first 4 posts indicated that crossdressing may have been part of your life. The 45 posts since then have all been regarding your views on christianity without mention of cross dressing as far as I can see. We have a Spirituality Forum that is here for Transgender members and their families/significant others to discuss subjects including christianity. This Spirituality forum is not really for the general public to come to post their views. I am not christian but understand there is a need to counter the blind hate that is sometimes expressed here but I belong here for reasons beyond occasionally defending christian people. What are the reasons you are hear other than to counter anti christian thought?

                 My question is,  Why are you posting in a transgender forum?  What is your connection to transgender issues other than religion?  If you have a connection here, why have you not expressed any views in other topics beyond spirituality and christianality?



beth

One more thing regarding the subject of this post:

⁵"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. ⁶But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Matthew 6:5-6

Nuff said.

Melissa

Quote from: katia on January 12, 2007, 12:49:28 AM
i think that what is inaccurate with christianity is that the christian god is [not] bipolar.

most all other gods have a dualistic aspect to them, they [create], and they [destroy]. christianity has just moved god's more destructive traits to an altogether different entity, satan.

The Christian god does destroy. Examples - the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah.

James;
  That is an interesting topic.
  The "great commission" was giiven to a church in a time when our Lord was crucified and there really was no church. It was, in a sense, starting a church and was therefore neccessary for the disciples to go preach, teach and baptise.
  Since that time we now have churches on every corner and they teach a variety of things in spite of the fact that there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism and one God and Father of all who is above all, in all, and through you all in respect to those who believe.
  There is no need of that great commission today. What the church needs today is a great repentence from behind the pulpits that may be witnessed by flocks taught to love this world and bring a curse on themselves as they judge others and give money to rich preachers when we have the poor with us often overlooked.
  This belief and faith which is private in respect to every man giving an answer for the hope which abides in him and answering for his own sins has been made very public and and has made more of a mockery of Christianity than it has helped to gather the lost.
  While it is true that Jesus Christ is the only way to God as he said, it doesn't seem that many of the clergy believe it.
  While they tell me I am saved by grace and that I have eternal life through belief they tell me that my clothing is an abomination.
  A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways the scriptures tell us. Because they were neither hot nor cold the Lord told them he would spew them out in Revelation.
  The original churches were listed as being in people's houses like Aquilla and Priscilla. As they grew men wanted to have the pomp and glory and it has become a big show in many areas. The love of God is often overlooked and we are expected to fit their individual idea of what a Christian is.
  Daniel and Revelation clearly show that there will be a time of the gentiles and shows when the fullness of the gentiles comes and the seventh angel sounds the two witnesses shall have finished their testimony and the beast will overcome the saints and kill them. What will become of these people when their prayers aren't answered at this time and they've been deceived into thinking they have something that they don't? Will they have any faith when the nobody can buy nor sell and there are no tithes? Will the preachers stay and preach when their income is gone? That should seperate the wheat from the chaff and those who love God from those who don't. The richest preachers will probably be the first to take the mark and tell their flocks it will be all right as well.
  If the public churches would take their focus off my wallet and my clothing maybe they could help prepare a flock to overcome the beast by the word of their testimony and the blood of the lamb. I realize not all churches are worldly and greedy but I do admit that many have made such a mockery of Christ that I wouldn't want to attend their services.
  From what I see today there are as many unbelievers in the church as out of it as declared by the scriptures. ( I don't wish to appear to be judging anyone)
  May God bless you.
  Tiff

I believe in God, only one God but of many names. That is the only part of religion I believe in. How can anyone believe in a book that has 6 versions and which was authorized  by a king in England, King James. Not to mention all the translations it has gone through over the centuries. Do you believe in everything you read. Even history books have changed to suit the needs of society.
Sheila

I've peeked in on this little sequel and umm do not have much to say except there is no room in the inn tonight so i cannot rent any space out for the christianity bit, sorry.........(Melissa spoke of some of the issues i feel as well)
I would agree with the moderators about the postings....
A lot of the posts seem to have some form or relationship to a religion but they are not the sole reasons for the post just tidbits other add in.  the reasons are more gender related in some form.
Please do not take that the wrong way...
I enjoyed some of your dialogue and posts.  i guess we all shoot each other down from time to time maybe this was just not the best place for it? as mentioned there is a religion area, wonder how much traffic it gets?
Hey when you burn a cake just get it together and bake another one!
i'll have to look tomorrow.. Meanwhile hunny and i have some food munching to do for now!
Good night and s weet dreams to all!
Ricki

Quote from: Nero on January 12, 2007, 01:36:08 PM

Quote from: katia on January 12, 2007, 12:49:28 AM
i think that what is inaccurate with christianity is that the christian god is [not] bipolar.

most all other gods have a dualistic aspect to them, they [create], and they [destroy]. christianity has just moved god's more destructive traits to an altogether different entity, satan.

The Christian god does destroy. Examples - the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah.

your statement:

Quote from: neroThe Christian god does destroy.  Examples - the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah

suggests that one would need to [believe in god] to consider it a factual event.


secondly, many archeologists don't think that Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed.

even if they did exist and they were destroyed, I'd have to go with natural disasters for $500, Alex.

Quote from: katia on January 12, 2007, 07:47:34 PM
secondly, many archeologists don't think that Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed.

...and some archeologists believe that they did.

Quote from: katia on January 12, 2007, 07:47:34 PM

Quote from: Nero on January 12, 2007, 01:36:08 PM

Quote from: katia on January 12, 2007, 12:49:28 AM
i think that what is inaccurate with christianity is that the christian god is [not] bipolar.

most all other gods have a dualistic aspect to them, they [create], and they [destroy]. christianity has just moved god's more destructive traits to an altogether different entity, satan.

The Christian god does destroy. Examples - the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah.

your statement:

Quote from: neroThe Christian god does destroy.  Examples - the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah

suggests that one would need to [believe in god] to consider it a factual event.


secondly, many archeologists don't think that Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed.

even if they did exist and they were destroyed, I'd have to go with natural disasters for $500, Alex.

My point was not to argue whether or not these events actually occurred. You said that the Christian god does not destroy. Whether the Christian god is mythological or not, according to the Christian religion, he DOES destroy.

Dear Beth, & Others
   Above all I would like to thank you for your gracious and compassionate words towards my character. You words have greatly encouraged me as I write this post. In your post you gave four questions important questions about why I partake at Susan's. I feel that these are important questions and I will try to offer a suitable answer to each.
   You asked, "What is your connection to transgender issues other than religion?" Other connections to Susan's are that I have feelings to cross-dress as mentioned in earlier posts but not re-enforced in later posts. Ever since I was between the age of nine and thirteen I have had a curiosity and desire to wear women's clothing. The reason that brought me to Susan's in the first place was my desire to better understand my feelings/desires.
   You also asked, "Why are you posting in a transgender forum?" I briefly mentioned above that I want to better understand my feelings/desires towards women's clothing. I feel that by posting at this site I am able to better understand significant aspects of my life: sexuality and faith. This site has allowed me to understand a position of aged experience by many TG or cross-dressers and how they view God in the mix of this all.
   You asked, "why have you not expressed any views in other topics beyond spirituality and Christianity?" As you noted I predominantly post in the spirituality forum. This does not mean that I limit my reading to this topic alone. Being twenty one I have two things on my mind: faith and sexuality (and occasionally school) Often when I log onto Susan's I will read over the sexuality topic and spirituality and possible others depending on many circumstances. The reason for all my posts on spirituality is due to my comfort level in talking about spiritual issues and my lack of knowledge or confidence in other topics. Though my posts make it appears as if I only read the spiritual topic I also look over sexuality and occasionally cross-dresser talk.
   My reason for attending Susan's is to learn about two major aspects of my life at my current age: sexuality and faith. Susan's has challenged many of my views and forced me to critically think about other perspectives. For this reason I have gained much knowledge about my own journey and its path. I feel it important to continually read new posts and post some responses to reflect my views. My hope is that I will challenge other people's assumptions in life allowing them to continually grow in their journey.
   I hope that these answers have been satisfactory and have clearly showed why I do as I do. Please feel free to ask me any questions regarding my answers or thoughts.

James,
I would like to try and add something here.  do not limit yourself to Spirituality/faith and your existing sexual/cross dress situation.
The one may be an issue your are dealt with and clearly (i am convinced due to your knowledge in the area) the religion is  a passion.  But the human body and the human mind is capable of experiencing far more things aften a lot at once!
I wish i was 21 again!  I think i never slept when i had that vigor...
But what i did do was embrace a lot of things and continue to do so, not speaking of them on the site does not mean i have other interests socially or whatever, but even at a limited age i think you'd have more to offer than just your curiosity about cross-dressing and religion.
In the scope of things we all know so very little about each other and learning is a great time for us. 
I do not know i guess there are many lessons and things in life to learn and not everything has to be tied to a religious aspect. 
One could say religion and nature go hand in hand but i do not chose to experience the outdoors in that light i chose to experience it as it is, natural, wild, unpredictable, free, dangerous, calming.. Know what i mean?
I cannot speak for others only myself but a lot of issues here and elsewhere can easily be tied into a religious aspect or conversation but they also do not have to be?  There are a lot of firm believers in this group i think but there is also a lot of past bad experiences a lot of us have lived and experienced through our given religions or those around us.   Tying the religion to a lot of it stirs up a lot of good and bad memories for some and sometimes makes the issue harder to just talk about?
Do you know what i mean?
Just my thoguhts
Peace and hugs
ricki

thank you for your answer and encouragement ricki. Most appriciated.
       James

I agree that religion should be a private affair.

I have allready stated that my own personal belief is that I do not believe in God, Spirituality or a higher being of any kind.

One of my core values is that I believe everyone has the right to believe (or not as the case may be). I respect every religion (or culture) and they are not right or wrong, just different in my own opinion.

If you find happiness, solace in your own personal faith then that is a wonderful thing and I richly applaud that.

My own personal pet hates concerned with religion are that I respect peoples right to believe, but more often than not, religious people do not respect my right to not believe.

The statement .. Religion is a Private affair, also makes my blood boil, I wish it was a private affair. How many wars, crusades, mass murders have taken place in the name of religion. How many times have people been persecuted because of their beliefs?

How can religion also be private when some of the largest landowners and richest organisations in the world religious based?

Religion can never be a private affair, it has helped shape our society and lives into what we are today and will do for many years to come perhaps eternity.

We may settle our differences in all other areas (Race, economical, uniting against killer diseases), but I doubt if we can ever reconcile our differences on religion.

Buffy

PS... Please dont think in anyway I am anti religious as I am not. I only post an alternative view in that religion has its downsides and well as it's upsides. I am sure many benefit from the religious beliefs and compassion that comes with that on a local scale, but on a global scale that is not the case in my opinion.

thanks James!
again best wishes fully!
Interesting side note:  myself and another rmanager were talking about dept and operational budgeting and expenses and how the numbers all jive at the end of the year regardless of month to month fiasco's..
He stated anything can look good on papper.
I make the ignorant guess that this can carry on into anything in life's terms.  a map and route can look easy on paper sometimes it is; other times its very different than the real deal you may have to drive on.
I dunno just an open ended thoguht here..
gotta close on this post ........how lovely :P
Hunny sends sloppy boxer hugs to all
Ricki

Let's see what my no so humble self can offer on this matter:

"Take for example the words of Jesus in Matthew 28:19. "19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.""

Sort of the issue with things like initiation and formalities is that they are inherently pushy, which seems to run counter to the love they are supposed to promote.  You can still make disciples out of people, but that is best done by inspiring them with the desired attitudes, not pouring water over the heads (it's just a symbolic ritual) or even necessarily expecting them to attend church (as that environment may not be best suitable for their enrichment).  But even worse, even when the message is spread, it is often done wrongly, as we've seen considerable prejudice from religious sorts -- and TGers are typically victims in this regard.  In fact, many of the people "spreading the word" (particularly higher-ups) seem to resemble sociopaths looking for personal gain, and these sorts are the most dangerous (your Falwells and Haggards).

"Earlier I stated that if Christians stopped sharing the gospel (both in word and deed) there would be a significant negative impact on society."

Education (science, philosophy, sociology, fine arts, etc) is reasonably capable of picking up the slack, as people without religion tend to pay more diligence to non-religious education.  While you are probably partial to your religion in this capacity, I believe secular education has better answers, as it has shown itself to be more responsive and methodical in obtaining its results (especially when it is free of the religious meddling seen in centuries past).

"To show the impact of what will happen I will briefly mention a few things the Salvation Army in the name of Jesus Christ and does it only because of Jesus."

There are secular organizations that are equally capable of providing charity, and they do it without promoting a religious agenda.  They'll pick up the slack if the religion ones were to disappear.

From someone else: "you say- Christians organizations caused 9/11 by voting in bush. prove to me that 9/11 happened because of bush. I don't think the talaban thought to themselves will if kerry wins we won't attack. This simply is an outrages claim until further proof is displayed."

It's a very weak connection. Bush's administration had downgraded the threat value for al Qaeda before 9/11.  Also, Bush does present a religious arrogance (he said he was God's choice for President for crying out loud) that helps fuel hatred against the United States on the basis of religion.  He didn't cause the attack as much as made us more vulnerable and by adding fuel to the fire.  CIA deserves primary blame, as they were the ones who provided Osama's organization with weapons throughout the '80s (to fight the Russians in a Cold War-related battlefront), and they also failed to give Clinton's administration the go-ahead to execute their battle plans back in the '90s.

........

Sort of my feeling on the original premise of the thread is that religion is not necessarily supposed to be a private or personal thing, but it should be a *personal* thing.  It is okay to gather in large groups to talk about it, but people should not be in the business of preaching at others.  People should be given the freedom to decide what is right for themselves rather than rely on the judgment of others.  We are too-well educated nowadays to look at each other as vessels to pour our beliefs into.  We should recognize the humanity of others and be willing to learn from them just as we hope they might learn from us.  Some people will have greater expertise than others, but it's necessary for even the lowest to take responsibility for their own beliefs, so that they have a foundation they can trust -- and even they are capable of compelling us to refine ideas we had taken for granted.

"This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now."