Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm not here to pick fights with christians, but I've already made more posts about christianity than about transsexual topics. So after this thread if I see a thread is in the Spirituality forum I will disregard it.

Source (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html)

World Annual Death Rate: 8.67 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)

World Population 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.)

6,525,170,264/1000=6,525,170.264*8.67=56,573,226

56 MILLION died last year

Christians 33.03%

56,573,226 * .6697 = 37,887,089

37 MILLION people died last year not believing in your god

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 7:13–14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

37 MILLION people a year comes down to 1.2 people dying without believing in your god EVERY SECOND.

My two questions to every christian that reads this is

1. How many people do you believe DIED AND WENT TO HELL while you read this post?

2. If your answer to question #1 is a number greater than 0 why are you here reading this post instead of out dedicating every second of your life to decreasing that number by 1?

Oh Nikki... why in the world is this on your mind?  ;)  You know something else?  All those people that died believing in the Christian God.... They're dead too!  That's right, they be dead people.  All dead. ;)

I've been up all night with an illness.  And I must say that your post here gave me quite a chuckle.  I know that you posted in a serious frame of mind.  But from the bottom of my heart, I thank you for putting a smile on my face on an otherwise dreary night.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 12, 2007, 04:55:31 AM
Oh Nikki... why in the world is this on your mind?  ;)

Because thankfully it's been years since I've had to deal as directly with christianity as I have recently on these forums. After James thread about public christianity I spent some time thinking about what my objection is. And in a nutshell it comes down to those two questions. If a christian in second hand clothes holding a well worn bible(or a new one because (s)he keeps giving his/hers away) came to my door I wouldn't mind. They wouldn't convert me but I'd have to respect their dedication to their beliefs. But millions of christians would rather spend an hour watching a football game than trying to reach people they believe are going to hell. For those christians who have no problems watching a football game believing 4320 people died and went to hell in that hour they sat entertaining themselves... I don't want to hear about respecting their beliefs when they so obviously care so little about the people around them. I don't want to hear them tell me how I should live my life when they think at the end if it I'm going to hell and all they care is what I do now. And I certainly don't want to waste 5 minutes of my life listening to some christian invite me to church sunday so he can feel better about the hour of his life he wasted on that football game. Anyone who calls themselves a christian and believes the bible is the word of god, if they want me to respect their beliefs they should live like they believe it themselves.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 12, 2007, 04:55:31 AMYou know something else?  All those people that died believing in the Christian God.... They're dead too!  That's right, they be dead people.  All dead. ;)

*cracks up* very true and I believe when you die it's over. So my goal should be to live every second based on the belief that a second I spend unhappy is a precious second of my short life I just wasted. Easier said than done(emotions suck lol) but I think I've really altered my focus in life since I spent a week going to sleep not knowing if I was gonna be alive two hours later to be woken up for a breathing test.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 12, 2007, 04:55:31 AMI've been up all night with an illness.  And I must say that your post here gave me quite a chuckle.  I know that you posted in a serious frame of mind.  But from the bottom of my heart, I thank you for putting a smile on my face on an otherwise dreary night.

Glad I could help, hope you feel better.

Edit: Oooo... 15 is the magic number, I just saw the option to applaud you. I'm out of jail :-)

Well for those types, I'm glad that they are watching their football game instead of parked on my porch!

No one can tell me how to live my life.  I do the best I can.  I enjoy my life.  If that will land me in hell, well, then we'll do some redecorating, turn down the heat, kick Satan out, and have a party.

Personally, I could never believe in the hell part.  Why would a "loving" god condemn his own children to a "hell"?  It makes no sense.  But that's what makes the power play work. Follow me or you are doomed. Do what I say or you are doomed. For those that rule, hell was invented. That can not be something that Christ taught.  I can't believe that it was in him.

I really get the impression that Christ would not have created an organized religion.  I don't believe that was his style.  It was more of a "hey let's get together and enrich each others' lives" sort of thing.  When I see the tapestry, pomp, and circumstance of the organized faiths, I can't connect them to a poor man wandering Galilee in an old frock sharing his wisdom.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 12, 2007, 05:57:33 AMNo one can tell me how to live my life.  I do the best I can.  I enjoy my life.  If that will land me in hell, well, then we'll do some redecorating, turn down the heat, kick Satan out, and have a party.

Woot! save me a spot on the dance floor :-)

Nikki;
  I'm a Christian and I am here because I believe that we should allow the Spirit of God to guide people to us and not beat them over the head with a Bible. It's like using the whole word of God. Tell all whom the Lord leads to us.
  Sadly, I'm not accepted on straight site and from what I see of straight Christian sites I find it better to come here and learn about othe issues in my life that straight Christians can't deal with and just blindly condemn me for anyway.
  Tiff

Nikki_W,

I couldn't agree more with what you are saying. This single point you are making is one of the major reasons I came to the conclusion that Christianity was just a lie. If you consider all the people who die every day without hearing about the aleged Jesus - it's astonishing. Under Baptist theology, even the Pope and mother Teresa will burn in hell. It's just absurd to belive, I think.

And you know, I hear you making tepid apologies somewhat for this line of reasoning. I feel that a transgender site is a quite reasonable place to pose very hard questions to the ideology that hates and opresses us.

Bri

Quote from: Brianna on January 12, 2007, 02:24:01 PM
And you know, I hear you making tepid apologies somewhat for this line of reasoning. I feel that a transgender site is a quite reasonable place to pose very hard questions to the ideology that hates and opresses us.

I'm not making apologies I can't think of a single thing more selfish than believing you are going to heaven when you die and believing without the information you hold other people will go to hell when they die, but not doing EVERYTHING in your power to prevent as many people as possible from going to hell.

I'm not making apologies for this post unless it's to myself. Christians can think they are going to heaven when they die and their time here on earth is their time to waste. I don't, my time on earth is my time to live and when I'm staring death in the face and ask myself if I did everything I could to maximize what I got out of my life I don't want my memories to be those of arguing with selfish hypocritical people. I cheered Cindi up last night so all is not lost but for the most part I consider time spent on the Spirituality forum arguing with christians to be time I lost that I didn't have to waste.

Hmmmmmmmmmm :icon_paper:
This is very curious to me.
I have my own beliefs and do not really get involved much with what others believe or not believe i feel that is for them to consider and have in their life's work.  I am one of those maybe more rare-minded people that sidelines a lot of what some others see or put out there, I just simply do not let it rent space in my head.  I have way to many other issues to contend with in my life.  unfortunately religion is not one of them i waste a lot of time mulling over....
I have mine and what i have and i do not try and do anything beyond that normally?
I just sometimes wonder why all of this bothers so many people or why its such an issue? 
Is an issue or someone elses problem only a problem if you let it become one of yours too?  I dunno just thinking that outloud!
anyway post away Nikki everyone should be able to express themselves anyway they need to!
hugs
Ricki

Quote from: Nikki_W on January 12, 2007, 05:27:41 AM
I believe when you die it's over.

i won't go to hell, then? ;)

terrific questions nikki!

Quote from: Nikki_W on January 12, 2007, 05:27:41 AM...
I believe when you die it's over.
...

Ah, if only...

But more to the point of the topic... lets just say my understanding, which is perhaps flawed, is that the followers were not meant to devote 24/7 of their lives to herding up people as it were.  Regardless I tend to agree with the view that not all Christians are actually Christians.  However, I am sure I am not so I will just shush now.

^{*small voice*} Not all people are bad people. Most are simply busy living their own lives as best they can. Blame them not for trying.

Firstly I don't believe at all in God, but I do believe that people have the right to believe in what ever they wish if they find happiness in that. What is written below is my own personal feelings.

I believe man created God, not the other way round, I can find no evidence that shows me that a higher being actually exists any thing I wish to believe in can in my opinion be explained by science or the force of nature.

Personaly, I have also found that within most religions, Christians tend too be the biggest hypocrits and I am yet to find anyone that can profess to not breaking any of the 10 commandments.

Religion has always been a way to control people, to manipulate how people think and indeed act.....

At University I was invited to a dinner by a Pentecostalist friend, It was a "Bring a Sinners" evening and I guess I was viewed as a sinner. I was treated to a variety of Murderers, Rapists and wife beaters, who stood up and talked about how they had repented and found God and where now "Good People"

Being TS I have also seen how unforgiving as me, with a medical condition some of the professed Christian people I know are. I am deemed unworthy as in the eyes of God, I have committed a sin by changing gender.

I decided that I have not done enough bad things in my life to be Christian.

Buffy

No, I do not believe that people go to hell if they are not Christian ... or Jewish, or Muslim or whatever.  And, no, I do not believe that atheists go to hell, either.

Organized religion should be about sharing our experiences with the Almighty, both past and present.  Problems come up when the power trips begin - when someone stands up and says, "Do THIS and not THAT, or G-d will be very angry...!"  THis is when the Almighty suddenly sounds like a spoiled child.

I believe that when the Second Comming occurs, we will find Jesus working inthe soup kitchens of NYC; helping the poor in Calcutta; feeding and providing cool water in Dafur; holding the hand of someone dying of AIDS...

And we will find Jesus sitting in with our LGBT support groups.  Listening.  Comforting.  And encouraging us to be who we truly are.

Chaunte

hello,
    Wow, what a topic. First of all I would like to thank Nikki_W for posting such an important topic regarding the Christian faith. I have enjoyed reading all the responses and hope to continue to do so in the near future. Nikki_W thanks agian for the question.

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 13, 2007, 02:30:43 AM
hello,
    Wow, what a topic. First of all I would like to thank Nikki_W for posting such an important topic regarding the Christian faith. I have enjoyed reading all the responses and hope to continue to do so in the near future. Nikki_W thanks agian for the question.

Given that you consider this topic so important would you like to pitch in with your own answers?

hello,
I would really love to pitch in my answer. Due to the magnitude of this question I was going to post my response within a couple of days so I could think over my words carefully and what I want to say. My apologies for the delay in my response.

The Mormons believe that all will have the opportunity to hear the gospel.  That is why they perform ordinances for the dead in their temples.  That way if they only get a chance to learn about God in the afterlife, their ordinances will be done.

For what it is worth.

Cindi

Quote from: Nikki_W on January 12, 2007, 04:43:08 AM
I'm not here to pick fights with christians...

Are you serious?  It sounds like that's just what you are intending to do.  For what purpose?  You could have accomplished the same thing by saying "I don't believe in Christianity because......."  In about 3 sentences your argument would have been made and respected.

I don't usually get into arguments which are nothing more than rhetorical questions in the guise of intelligent questions.  I really don't want to respond in turn.  What if I asked you:  How can any athiest sleep at night knowing that one day they will wake up in hell?  The question is fallacious from the start because it makes assumptions of "every Christian" that are not true.  It is either an argument in the form of a question, or nothing but a trap, and the answer has already been written to pounce on any Christian who dares answer it.  The way the question is framed reminds me of the old classic:  Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

However, since you asked, and in case you really do want to know, I'll give you a little bit of my views.  Yes, Christians are supposed to share their faith with others.  That is a given.  And you are right, Nikki, that those who don't are being very selfish.  On that we agree.

But how are we to share the faith?  In essence, it is in becoming like Christ, which often bears little resemblance to the stereotype you have portrayed.  As I've said in other posts, Christ was a true radical.  It is hard to argue with the assertion that if all of us lived the kind of love He taught, this world would be a much better place.  And I find that most people are not too turned off by Jesus.  Mostly they are turned off by their experience of the church.

That being said, I think that the scripture passage you allude to is found in Matthew 28:19, often called the Great Commission.  In most English translations it says, ""Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations..." or something close to that.  English is a miserable language compared to some others.  In Greek this is a present active participle.  All that means is that the most accurate translation into today's language would be something like "While going into the world, make disciples..."  In other words, it is assumed that Christians will be going lots of places.  That still happens today.  While we are going about our daily lives, wherever life takes us, we are to so model Christianity that others will want to follow as well.  This is what becomes problematic.  Christians, like everybody else, are humans.  They mess up, some quite badly.  We have taken the Great Commission and turned it into the Great Omission.  I like what one theologians says:  The only problem with Christianity is that no one has ever really tried it.

Buffy is right that she will not find anyone that can profess to not breaking any of the 10 commandments.  This is why grace and forgiveness are needed, daily.  However, it is not my job to save anyone.  It is not my responsibility even if someone sees the good news modeled perfectly and still rejects it.  That is the job of the Holy Spirit.  And I will let God worry about the particulars.

Finally,  the bulk of what Jesus taught is not really about going to heaven or hell.  It is about following a true and living way.  It is about a God who "loved the world so much that He gave..."  It is about self-sacrifice and seeing others as even more important that yourself.  It is about being set free from failures, past and present to experience what life was meant to be.  It is about a powerful, unexpected good news for any who wish to receive it.  Anything else is a fringe benefit at best. 

Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Kristi,

Wow. If you feel enboldened with the right to peddle your Christianity in my face, is there a single reason in the world I shouldn't try to peddle my hardline atheism back into yours? Is there a reason I shouldn't go knock on your doors and try to convince you not to go to church, not to worship the aleged jesus and not to follow the teachings of the aleged bible?

No, you say? Oh, why is that? Because it's not respectful of your beliefs?

Exactly.

Bri

Quote from: Kristi on January 13, 2007, 10:23:28 PM

Quote from: Nikki_W on January 12, 2007, 04:43:08 AM
I'm not here to pick fights with christians...

Are you serious?  It sounds like that's just what you are intending to do.  For what purpose?  You could have accomplished the same thing by saying "I don't believe in Christianity because......."  In about 3 sentences your argument would have been made and respected.

Very serious and I've discovered the ignore forums setting today. After this thread dies I will be using that option on this forum.

Quote from: Kristi on January 13, 2007, 10:23:28 PMI don't usually get into arguments which are nothing more than rhetorical questions in the guise of intelligent quetions.  I really don't want to respond in turn.  The way the question is framed reminds me of the old classic:  Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

For not wanting to "respond in turn" this is pretty insulting.

Quote from: Kristi on January 13, 2007, 10:23:28 PMHowever, since you asked, and in case you really do want to know, I'll give you a little bit of my views.  Yes, Christians are supposed to share their faith with others.  That is a given.  And you are right, Nikki, that those who don't are being very selfish.  On that we agree.

No I wasn't referring to the "great commission" and consider it rather irrelevant to my question. I wasn't asking why christians don't do "x" item the bible tells them to. If that was the question I could ask why people leave church then run a stop sign on the way out of the parking lot.

You've framed you answer in terms of following your obligations to the bible. I didn't quote matthew because I wasn't asking about obligations. I don't know what you believe, Chaunte doesn't believe there is a hell so my question wasn't directed to her. The church I grew up in did teach a hell and if you die and your not "saved" you go to that hell to burn for eternity. If you believe that if you really truely believe the non-believer next to you is going to hell to burn with no end or relief to their suffering. What is more important than doing everything in your power to prevent people from suffering that fate. I'm not asking in terms of what your bible tells you your obligations are I'm asking in terms of you as a human how can you sleep at night believing people you know will suffer like that and knowing your not doing everything possible to prevent that suffering.

The question isn't rhetorical back when I was a kid and believed this stuff I spent many nights laying awake asking myself those two questions. And I'm ashamed to say my response was well my parents don't my pastor doesn't no one I know does why should I? But personal responsibility for your actions and beliefs isn't about your community is it? It's about what do YOU believe and are YOU acting on those beliefs.

Yes I hate christianity but my questions weren't directed at attacking the religion my questions were serious boil it all down questions for it's adherents.

Quote from: Brianna on January 13, 2007, 10:31:28 PM
Kristi,

Wow. If you feel enboldened with the right to peddle your Christianity in my face,
Bri

Well Bri, I didn't do that and never have.  In fact, I never asked you to believe it.  I realize that you won't and I love you anyway.  Look at the title of the thread.  I was trying to give an honest answer.  And in response to what you said, you are welcome in my home or church any time.  You would find yourself warmly received and not judged.

You are a beautiful girl and you don't wear hatred very well. 

Nikki,
I did attempt to give an answer from a Christian perspective.  Look at your title.  Guess you didn't want that after all.  Sorry I misunderstood.  But if you ask a question directly and specifically to Christians, please don't get offended when they answer you from their perspective, which generally does include the Bible.  Your question was about sharing with those who do not believe and the importance of it.  I did my best to answer the question you asked, even though it sounded like in asking you were really asking for permission not to believe.  Of course you don't need that.  You already have it and have exercised that option.  I fully support your right to do so.

By not wanting to respond in turn, I meant that your question seemed loaded, and asked in an unfair, unfactual way.  If I misread it, then I apologize.

What I was attempting to say was that some Christians are not Baptists (in fact, the majority) and have a very different idea of how they share the good news.  For some it is not about fire insurance (i.e., your question).  Rather, it is about a way of life.  I am one of those.  And I do sleep quite well most nights.

Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Does anybody else find it ironic that Christians love to quote passages from the bible to non-believers in order to prove that the bible is credible?

By the way, I'm not an athiest; just a person who was raised in christianity and then had it snubbed in my face when I came out as TS as well as it being used as an excuse for my parents to show their bigotry towards me and not have to take responsibility for their actions.  It's given me a bad taste for the religion and frankly, I'm not sure what direction I'll go at this point in time in regard to my beliefs.

Melissa

hello,
   Just to set some clarity out there. When myself or other christian quote scripture we ARE NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU ARE THE BIBLE IS CREADABLE. The reason for this is because the scriptures play a significant role in what christians think and practice. When you ask for a christian perspective it would be unreasonable not to use scripture. When Christians state a perspective we simply are giving our perspective on the issue and NOT TRYING TO FORCE OUR VIEW ON YOU. If you do not want to read our response you do not have to.

Brianna if you wish to discuss your atheist beliefs I would look forward to doing so if that is appropiate to the site rules. Regardless of our faiths/religions it will have a great impact on the individual's journey and effect how they view themselves in light of their situations in life. If you could start a thread on how atheism has played a role in your life regarding your TG or cross-dressing I would love to read about it.
    James
     

Quote from: Melissa on January 14, 2007, 11:13:00 AM
Does anybody else find it ironic that Christians love to quote passages from the bible to non-believers in order to prove that the bible is credible?

Oh, Melissa.  I didn't do that either.  Not my style.  I would call that circular reasoning.  The question was about a Christian view.   I gave my answer.  I never even mentioned proving the Bible's trustworthiness, nor did I prooftext what I said.  I simply said that this is where the Christian understanding comes from, then showed the meaning of the passage, even to translating it from the Greek.  Why does that surprise, let alone anger anyone?  Didn't everyone know that already that most Christian viewpoints come from scripture?  And if you really read what I wrote, it flies in the face of the fundamentalist belief of what Bri and many others seem to believe as the stereotype of all Christians.  Really, again, read the title of the thread.  If you don't want to know, don't ask. ;)

I wish you the best in your search.  I agree with you that many have been the victims of some terrible things in the name of the church and of Christ.  I am grieved over that as well.  I'm not crazy about the church.  But I do separate it out from my Christian beliefs about Christ and his teachings.  That is what I get excited about.

Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
Kristi

I never said you did Kristi.  I just happened to think of that at the time. :)

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 14, 2007, 01:37:43 PM
When you ask for a christian perspective it would be unreasonable not to use scripture.

I'm not the one who asked for a christian perspective, since that is what I already best understand.  I have not practiced any other religion.  It's just right now, I've kind of stepped back to sort things out better.  Honestly though, please do not feel I am attacking you.  It was just a question.  If you were not trying to prove the bible was credible, then obviously the question did not apply to you.

Melissa

Not exactly in defense of christianity, but it sort of does, the other religions that I know also believe that non believers wont receive whatever reward is greatest in their religion. Non budhists are going to find it pretty hard to reach Nirvana, without knowing the right way. Doubt any non Jewish are going to receive their greatest rewards. I dont know much about muslim, but I am sure a non islamic person will reach their greatest reward. Religions that I know of sorta do this and create (or if you prefer state, or say that god says) that only certain people (members) will receive the rewards. And the non believers will either receive lesser rewards, or even punishments (aka hell like states).

So I tend to know that even though that number may be correct for christianity, that the other religions also have a similar number, so the number is actually higher, when you include all the religions.

Although I am not a fan of christianity, I want to remain more partial to include the others in such attack.

I'm a Christian  :) It's all about how you interpret the faith.

QuoteI believe that when the Second Comming occurs, we will find Jesus working inthe soup kitchens of NYC; helping the poor in Calcutta; feeding and providing cool water in Dafur; holding the hand of someone dying of AIDS...

I'm not Christian, however I wish to thank Chaunte for a wonderful post. When or if the messiah should come, I believe he/she'll be working at the front lines to end suffering as she describes above.

No comment as to whether Christians should be spreading the word instead of watching a football game (LOL), but when they (Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc) come knocking on my door, please notice the mezuzah, and take the message elsewhere.

zythyra

Hello,
   A response to the questions posed by Nikki_W
   1) How many people do you believe died and went to hell while you read this post?
   2) If your answer to question one  is a number greater then zero why are you here reading this post instead of out dedicating every second of your life to decreasing that number by one.

   My response to these questions will be done in a threefold manner: 1) response to the first question, 2) response to second question, 3) and offer a challenge to people

   Like many other Christians I shall give you a similar answer. I simply don't know how many went to hell during my reading of your post for it is not my place to decide on who is going to hell or heaven. Your probably thinking about the verse were Jesus says I am the way the truth and life and no one gets to the father except through me. For some this may seem as clear evidence on what it takes to gain salvation. It appears as if your view implies that we need to accept or believe in Jesus to gain salvation. I am taking this from your comment "dying without believing in your God every second."
The problem with the view you are presenting is that it is not one found in the Christian scriptures. (Acknowledging this theory has been taught) Christians believe that the saints of old we be in heaven. How can this be if they did not know or accept Jesus? The answer is really quite simple; salvation is not a matter of acceptance but instead an issue of rejection towards God (Christian God). God will judge his creation according to their hearts, what was revealed to that individual. In acknowledging or "accepting" what God has done for you does not "save" you rather it gives you the assurance that through the blood of Jesus you have gained salvation.

Your second question deals with two issues: 1) A Christian's sense of urgency, 2) what does it look like for a Christian to live a life for Jesus?
1) As you mentioned in your post Christians should have a sense of urgency in spreading the gospel message. It breaks my heart to write that Christians do not always live a life commanded by Jesus. I know with great confidence that I could give you a list of things I do I in my life that go against the words of Jesus. What I am trying to say is that humans, whether Christian or not, make mistakes and could not fully match up against the commands of Jesus. The reason why Christians do not always display a sense of urgency is simply because were human not because we believe that being a Christian means we have a responsibility to be hypocrites. After saying this, I do agree with you that if Christians displayed a greater sense of urgency and lived a life according to the teachings of their savoir Christianity would gain more respect.

2) The other part of the question I would like to answer is what does this urgency look like? You made mention that if someone came to your door in rags and a torn bible you would respect them for their convictions. The reality is that people will live out this urgency in many different forms. When looking back on history we can see this quite clearly. Take for example the early Revivalist movement in 1800's or the approach of the silent person living a Godly life and someone asks him a question about why he/she does as they do. We may believe certain approaches work better in our lives but this does not mean that other ways are wrong though may be harmful in certain contexts. There is no one way to get across the Christian message in various cultures and philosophical worldviews. The best way I have heard evangelism described is through Francis of Assisi, "At all times preach the gospel, if necessary use words."

Since there is not set plan on how to spread the gospel message every Christian will have to figure this out for themselves in their context of time and space. AS Christians figure out how this urgency is to look they will likely make mistakes and turn people away from the Christian God. Christian must therefore then have faith that their God is a fair and just God (topic I'm not intending to start a discussion on) who will take human mistakes and judge us according to what we know. I am in no way excusing Christians for continual inappropriate behaviour for we are told to be BECOME like Jesus the Christ.

Finally I would like to offer a challenge,
If you believe you have found the secret to a happy life would you keep it to yourself when many people die living empty lives?

   Let me take for example the atheist belief if I may. For an atheist who does not believe in life after death the focus then becomes living on earth. An atheist should display a strong sense of urgency in teaching their ways because time is an essential issue. We can see this in Jean Paul Sarte an atheistic existentialist who would teach about atheist existentialism in public areas. My intent is not to single out atheists and their beliefs but rather illustrate that the question posed to "Christians" in this thread can be applied to all other worldviews. I would love to some responses on how other faiths or religious groups would answer these two questions. Thanks.
         James

Quote
Finally I would like to offer a challenge,
If you believe you have found the secret to a happy life would you keep it to yourself when many people die living empty lives?

Yup.  No problem.  You see, I don't have to spread my word.  I live it.  If people want to know my secret, all they need do is watch.  By their works ye shall know them sort of thang.

Cindi

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 15, 2007, 11:31:52 PM
Finally I would like to offer a challenge,
If you believe you have found the secret to a happy life would you keep it to yourself when many people die living empty lives?

The secret to a happy life is within.

When I think someone needs a nudge I will if I think it is of value to them and it feels right to intervene.

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 15, 2007, 11:31:52 PM
   Let me take for example the atheist belief if I may. For an atheist who does not believe in life after death the focus then becomes living on earth. An atheist should display a strong sense of urgency in teaching their ways because time is an essential issue. We can see this in Jean Paul Sarte an atheistic existentialist who would teach about atheist existentialism in public areas. My intent is not to single out atheists and their beliefs but rather illustrate that the question posed to "Christians" in this thread can be applied to all other worldviews. I would love to some responses on how other faiths or religious groups would answer these two questions. Thanks.
         James

That is a fascinating thought. MUST an atheist NOT believe in reincarnation? I say no, because frankly I can (rather easily) describe reincarnation with no deity involved.

However, I do not have a 'strong sense of urgency' in a large part because I view many things in the world going according to plan and frankly I do not want to mess things up. In essence sometimes we want poopie to happen.

Or said another way I have no urgency because I KNOW you cannot escape the truth.

As for saving people from Hell and Hell in general, well, :eusa_wall:.


Still, whatever makes people happy... as long as they remember to be kind and compassionate.
:icon_flower:

Wow , well whether i believe in some things or not the information here is amazing!  I guess if you guys were chef's you'd give me some good competition but alas its religion and scripture i cannot compete but i am reading and trying to understand the information and everyones views!
James you are very informed, good deal!
Kirsti, sweetie you are too! wow this would be like the iron chef competition but more like the iron angels competition.
anyway although passionate very good information!
kisses and crosses! :o
ricki

Hi Nikki_W,

Tough questions.  And, I do think you're picking a fight (though not necessarily wrongly so) with "christians".  Being one of them, I hope to give an answer.  I don't know how many folks have died since I read and am now answering you. I am sure it is more than -0-.  As far as why am I "here reading this post instead of out dedicating every second of your life to decreasing that number by 1?", I hope that by reading this post and honestly trying to answer, I may be doing just that.  Being a christian isn't about me anyway, it's about Him and what He did and does, and who He is.  I am certainly a flawed human being (actually veeeery flawed).  I am also amazingly grateful and humbled by what I've learned that Jesus' actions in his earthly life, his crucifixion, and his resurrection have accomplished.  I love folks to meet Him... and get to know Him... I'll fail, probably often, but He never does.  To me, the foot of the Cross is a great equalizer... we're all the same there.  I hope that's answered your question.  LGF

I don't want to get too involved in this thread, but there's a few comments I would like to make (even though a few are redundant, I want to emphasize them).

The way *some* Christians (and practitioners of many other religions) act towards "non-believers" is ugly and betrays their faith.  A worthy philosophy is one built on love ("love your neighbor as yourself") and should be open-minded and patient towards emerging issues -- and believers should find real life applications with those attitudes in mind.  People should remain dedicated to expanding upon those evolving principles rather than performing stagnant rituals and memorizing facts of questionable origin, for reasons of functionality if nothing else.  "Believers" and "non-believers" alike embrace "love" to a varying degree.

Regardless of one's faith, constant diligence in spreading their word is not required, no matter how high the stakes -- people deserve some personal time, and perhaps the only way the bigoted can hope to temper their faith is if they take time to step back and reflect for a while.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
  --  Mahatma Gandhi

"Most people are willing to take the Sermon on the Mount as a flag to sail under, but few will use it as a rudder by which to steer."
  --  Oliver Wendell Holmes

Those quotes sum up my views on the subject.

Jessica

Lets toss this in the mix....

QuoteBowling for Columbine did it to the gun culture.
Super Size Me did it to fast food.
Now The God Who Wasn't There does it to religion.

Holding modern Christianity up to a bright spotlight, this bold and often hilarious new film asks the questions few dare to ask.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=3809295249394275228
or you can watch the slightly larger version (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3809295249394275228) at google

Your guide through the world of Christendom is former fundamentalist Brian Flemming, joined by such luminaries as Jesus Seminar fellow Robert M. Price, professor Richard Dawkins, author Sam Harris and historian Richard Carrier.

See the movie the Los Angeles Times calls "provocative - to put it mildly."

Hold on to your faith. It's in for a bumpy ride.

It's available for sale at their website (http://www.thegodmovie.com/), I've already bought a copy. If you like it buy one too. We need to reward documentaries like this one!

Btw I believed in God before this, I still do after watching this. But I have never felt Jesus was intended to replace God as many Christians do, he's just a signpost along the way showing a way to god...

QuoteLet me take for example the atheist belief if I may. For an atheist who does not believe in life after death the focus then becomes living on earth. An atheist should display a strong sense of urgency in teaching their ways because time is an essential issue. We can see this in Jean Paul Sarte an atheistic existentialist who would teach about atheist existentialism in public areas.

I am agnostic and yet also believe that reincarnation is possible. These beliefs aren't necessarily counter to each other.

zythyra

I am a Christian, I was not raised as a Christian, I made the decision to accept Christ at the age of 30 and have been very involved in Christian Ministries.

Having worked with several well known Christian ministries and publishers, I found they were more interested in posting high numbers of conversions, not in the actual "individual" who converted.  And from experience, the numbers were highly inflated.

Having said that, it is unfortunate that most churches (I meant to use the lower case) do not accept Transsexualism and they are not "shy" about how they react to us.  Most of the time, the Church leadership does not welcome us (that does not mean that some individual members will not welcome us).

It is unfortunate that many use the Bible as a weapon of hate instead of love and fellowship.

I am still a Christian (just of the female persuasion now), I still believe in Christ, but have little respect for the local church and unfortunetely no real fellowship with them anymore.

Sarah L.

I hope this makes sense

While not flawless, that is a pretty good documentary.  I like the effort that goes into the timeline, and to comparing Christianity against other mythologies.

QuoteLet me take for example the atheist belief if I may. For an atheist who does not believe in life after death the focus then becomes living on earth. An atheist should display a strong sense of urgency in teaching their ways because time is an essential issue. We can see this in Jean Paul Sarte an atheistic existentialist who would teach about atheist existentialism in public areas.

If an atheist were to take up the cause of spreading atheism, he/she would not be an atheist.  Atheism is not a belief system.  How can you share "nothing"?

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 26, 2007, 09:11:23 PM

QuoteLet me take for example the atheist belief if I may. For an atheist who does not believe in life after death the focus then becomes living on earth. An atheist should display a strong sense of urgency in teaching their ways because time is an essential issue. We can see this in Jean Paul Sarte an atheistic existentialist who would teach about atheist existentialism in public areas.

Atheism is not a belief system. 
Cindi

according th margaret atwood, atheism is not only a belief system but a religion. >:D

It depends on your definition of religion.  www.dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion) primarily defines it as so...

"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

Atheism and non-theistic agnosticism do not attribute anything to superhuman entities and thus by this standard do not meet the definition of "religion."  They also notably lack the secondary characteristics typical of religions (rituals, moral code).  The alternative definitions provide little to suggest anything beyond a weak fit.

Atheism does seem to constitute a belief system, but it's nothing gooier than that.

Quote from: Katia on January 26, 2007, 09:17:38 PM

Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 26, 2007, 09:11:23 PM

QuoteLet me take for example the atheist belief if I may. For an atheist who does not believe in life after death the focus then becomes living on earth. An atheist should display a strong sense of urgency in teaching their ways because time is an essential issue. We can see this in Jean Paul Sarte an atheistic existentialist who would teach about atheist existentialism in public areas.

Atheism is not a belief system. 
Cindi

according th margaret atwood, atheism is not only a belief system but a religion. >:D

Anyone who believes Atheism to be a religion is purely ignorant to a provable and easily accessable fact that Atheism is not a religion. Same for Evolution, even though creationist propaganda will get hard core Christian sheep into believing it is.

I recommend a read of Christ's newest book, called A Course in Miracles, which was 'channeled' by an atheist Jewish Psychologist about 30 years ago.  (Why not?  The New Testament gospels weren't written by the people for whom they were named - Matthew, John, Luke, Mark.  This latest isn't named for Helen.)

Anyway, there is no hell.

Our only function in this illusion of reality is forgiveness. 

"I am not a body; I am free,  I am still as God created me."  (An eternal spirit seeking a human experience.)

Robyn

Quote from: reikirobyn on January 26, 2007, 10:49:22 PM
"I am not a body; I am free,  I am still as God created me."  (An eternal spirit seeking a human experience.)

Robyn

Brilliant! :)

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

P.S.  Well, and what about Madalyn Murray O'Hair?  didn't she believe that atheism was some kind of religion as well or am I mistaken?

Quote from: reikirobyn on January 26, 2007, 10:49:22 PM
Our only function in this illusion of reality is forgiveness.

I would dispute that, actually.  I think acceptance is a much higher state of spiritual awareness than forgiveness.  Because when you accept everything, there is no longer anything to forgive.

I'm talking about unconditional love.

I'm totally blown away here.  I just joined this forum a couple of days ago hoping to find some support and commonality with some sisters that know my struggles. In fact this will be my first post and maybe my last.  What I have found here is some real hate and intolerance. The same things that we scream so loud about when they are directed at us. Nikki, you have obviously got some unresolved issues.  Do you really know as much about christianity as you profess?  The real christians that I know aren't anything like what you describe.  Kristi, you are right on the mark imho. :o

Quote from: Teresa on January 28, 2007, 12:46:56 AM
I'm totally blown away here.  I just joined this forum a couple of days ago hoping to find some support and commonality with some sisters that know my struggles. In fact this will be my first post and maybe my last.  What I have found here is some real hate and intolerance. The same things that we scream so loud about when they are directed at us. Nikki, you have obviously got some unresolved issues.  Do you really know as much about christianity as you profess?  The real christians that I know aren't anything like what you describe.  Kristi, you are right on the mark imho. :o

hate and intolerance? just because i'm an atheist doesn't mean i'm [hateful or intolerant]. for me it wasn't really a matter of choice. i was overwhelmed by the evidence that my religious beliefs were based in outright [falsehood] at worst and [baseless assertion] at best.
but i can tell you what has changed in my life as a result. the many hours a week i was [serving the church] now go into making a difference in my community. and the money i once gave to [build churches] and pay staff now pays for treatment of children with cancer, and after school programs, and safe homes for battered women and kids and a college education for an orphan. the hours i spent [studying myths] and fantasy and debating over minutiae of religious dogma and notions of apocalypse and the god's will now go into relationships and making a difference and [not] screening my friends based on religion has sure enriched my life.
my growth, joy and maturity [were stunted] by christianity. in other words, all the time, treasure and thought i put into a [lie] and a [fraud] is now put into enjoying life and enjoying people and trying to make something of this life and this world because there won't be another. i [no longer have to struggle] with the concept of a god of torture who demands flattery and who gives eternal agony for temporal errors. i no longer have to struggle with a god whose ego is more fragile than my own, who is jealous, vengeful, petty and whose best offer to his children's an eternity of kissing his butt and telling him [how pretty] he is.
but at its [essence], i left the church because the claims were either probably false or unprobable, and the notion of a god that gives us a brain and tells us not to use it, a god who [embodies] some of our [own worst traits], just made [no sense]. any one can change their life with any religion. moslems and jews and buddhists would all say their religion changed their lives. but for me, religion had to be more than a lifestyle that changed how i felt and what i did. it also had to be objectively true and it simply is not.  sorry if this post offends you but it's just how it is and how i feel.  and no, i haven't found hatred or intolerance here and you won't either if you decide to stay.

Hello Teresa,

As you know we are humans first, transgendered second and as such are as varied as any other hum, special interest group I suppose.

The point being please don't let a few odd views scare you off from this place. Susan's is a place worth at least lurking at, I think.

Welcome to you...

Everyone is walking their own path in life.

Don't hate them for it.  Respect them for it.

Quote from: Teresa on January 28, 2007, 12:46:56 AMDo you really know as much about christianity as you profess?  The real christians that I know aren't anything like what you describe.  Kristi, you are right on the mark imho. :o

Yes I do, I know them by their acts and the acts I see have driven me away from organized Christianity. I still believe in and talk with God, I follow the teachings of Jesus, but I don't follow what most people see as "Christianity" today. I doubt Jesus himself would recognize it if he came back today.

There is no hate in me for Christians, only pity that they can't see the road he so clearly pointed out to humanity during his life. I hope they can grow spiritually enough to see the truth Jesus came here to teach, that the church later lost in it's efforts to control man rather than enlighten him. I explain what I see as my path to God, it's not the same for everyone.  People make their own choices.

The creed is explained rather well by my bot in the chat.....

QuoteBasically Susan's policy is this. "You talk to god your way and we will talk to god our way. In the end god will decide who was right and wrong."

I think God gives everyone a path to walk to find him. I know I am walking mine.

Quote from: Kimberly on January 28, 2007, 01:16:49 AM


As you know we are humans first, transgendered second and as such are as varied as any other hum, special interest group I suppose.

The point being please don't let a few odd views scare you off from this place. Susan's is a place worth at least lurking at, I think.[/color]

You're right; so I'll stay around for a bit I suppose.  It just hurts me to see people in denial of their own creation.  I've given a large portion of my life serving others around the world in the name of Christ. I wasn't paid to do it; in fact, I've paid my own expenses. I've seen too many things to doubt my beliefs.  I am measured by what I know and what I do with that knowledge, not by what anyone elses does or knows. I don't have time to worry about the person that professes knowledge or belief but does nothing with it whether that be christianity, democracy, or atheism. 

Quote from: Susan on January 28, 2007, 02:01:32 AM
I think God gives everyone a path to walk to find him. I know I am walking mine.

:)

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Teresa on January 28, 2007, 02:17:08 AM
It just hurts me to see people in denial of their own creation.

Don't be.

I don't think people deny the fact that one way or another they are brought into this world.  The issue has more to do with whether we are brought in this world by some divine force called God in the way the Bible (or at least your Bible) says.  Those critical of Christianity (keeping in mind that it is one of many religions, and which also has many of its own distinct denominations) usually do not reject the story of creation on the basis of reactionary refusal.  There are other religions that contradict Christianity.  There is compelling scientific that show this theory to be highly improbable.  As such, accepting the story of creation is not a trivial thing that non-believers are trying to block out of their head; there is good reason to not take it literally.  (Even my *catholic* Holy Bible has footnotes that pretty much say the two stories of creation are just stories).  It is not necessary for you to accept the other theories for yourself, but you should accept that many others here (and anywhere) may believe in alternatives, and they're justified in doing so.  Likewise, others must do the same for you.

As with all belief systems (including atheism), there are believers of Christianity that have been rather ugly in professing their "faith" (Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson), and sometimes even demonstrating hypocrisy of great magnitude (Ted Haggard), and such people can turn others away from their faith.  Even greater numbers have attacked those who are GLBTS, CD, Andro, etc.  They all made it easier for *me* to abandon the idea that the Bible is literal word (as opposed to a collection of fables and stories to be read in context), although doing so was probably a foregone conclusion; it was just a matter of time.

There are plenty of "reasonable" people of most if not all belief systems (atheism and most forms of Christianity included), but they are typically not the ones given the greatest voice.  At message boards like this one, there's pretty decent regulation (and it's not a platform for making lots of money), so the greatest of blow-hards don't get a soap box here.  But this isn't the place to let out pent-up frustration on others, because the others have taken garbage as well, and it's not nice to beat up on fellow downtrodden sorts.  All of us have been hurt, and we need to respect that.

Quote from: Susan on January 28, 2007, 02:01:32 AM

Quote from: Teresa on January 28, 2007, 12:46:56 AMDo you really know as much about christianity as you profess?  The real christians that I know aren't anything like what you describe.  Kristi, you are right on the mark imho. :o

Yes I do, I know them by their acts and the acts I see have driven me away from organized Christianity. I still believe in and talk with God, I follow the teachings of Jesus, but I don't follow what most people see as "Christianity" today. I doubt Jesus himself would recognize it if he came back today.

There is no hate in me for Christians, only pity...

I would never want to get into a peeing match over whether there are hypocrites out there in christendom.  Of course there are.  And there are also some shining examples I have met.  In advance, please forgive the scripture references given here.  They are not meant to offend anyone, but to provide further reading if anyone wishes to follow up.  I never will stoop to excusing the actions of the church when it is wrong.  (BTW, in Acts 15, Paul opposes Peter over this whole issue of religious bigotry and non-acceptance of people with a slightly different experience.)  So this is nothing new.

However, there is a major misunderstanding here about "if he came back today."  It is our firm belief that Christ is right now among those who are hurting and outcast.  Wherever we see acts of charity, of compassion, of fairness, of justice, of love, Christ is already there.  Further, Christians will not be judged one day on their degree of religiosity, but on how we have clothed the naked, fed the hungry, given drink to the thirsty, cared for the sick, visited those in prison, and welcomed the stranger.  This is the true essence of real faith.  For when we do not do those things, we have not done them to Christ  (Matthew 25:31-46).  This judgment will be quite a shock to many who consider themselves religious, and to many who do not. 

As I said, Susan, I agree that much of what is called the church today is nothing like what Christ had in mind.  And I refuse to defend what cannot be defended.  However, I truly believe that Christ is here, alive and active in hearts which may or may not recognize his presence, bringing about seemingly random acts of kindness in ways we could never imagine.

Peace, Please!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

hate and intolerance? just because i'm an atheist doesn't mean i'm [hateful or intolerant]. for me it wasn't really a matter of choice. i was overwhelmed by the evidence  that my religious beliefs were based in outright [falsehood] at worst and [baseless assertion] at best.

Hello,

    I would  like to say that it has been wonderful to read the variety of responses and thoughts. I was drawn quickly to the comment made by Tereasa which is mentioned above. I was wondering if it would be possible to start a thread that would discuss the overwhelming evidence against christianity. My intent is not that i could argue the christian perspective but I am most curious to the arguments considering my experience has been the opposite to that assertion. If that is at all possible that would be great. If not thats cool. Thanks. James

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 29, 2007, 08:57:23 PM
I was wondering if it would be possible to start a thread that would discuss the overwhelming evidence against christianity. My intent is not that i could argue the christian perspective but I am most curious to the arguments considering my experience has been the opposite to that assertion. If that is at all possible that would be great. If not thats cool. Thanks. James

Yep feel free.... Spirituality is for a discussion of religion, that includes the absence of it.