Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I talked to a kid who has posted near complains about trending(?) FTM. She said something along the line of "many of them are transgendered/transsexual just to be different or attention or for fashion" So I asked her why because it wasn't first time seeing this and I'm thinking is that something have to do with masculinity or fitting into the traditional male stereotype? I didn't ask her more because she didn't sound want to be bothered so..  :P

I saw this claim on a seriously transphobic lesbian's blog once. She was making claims that 'perfectly balanced' lesbians were transitioning to men just to fit better into the binary/stereotypes or some bull. Saying they were 'perfectly decent' before and turned into some misogynistic pig after they transitioned and... just a bunch of awful stuff. She was also taking letters from other lesbians claiming trans people were overrunning 'THEIR' clubs and organizations...wtf?

Horrendous people they were =_=

Honestly though, even if it is a trend, I'd agree with caleb. This isn't exactly an easy road. I cannot see a fake traversing it unless they were seriously delusional about themselves o_O

Maybe they see transfolk going to therapy and endos and etc. etc. and they're just jealous of all the "attention" we're getting :-\?

Semi-serious point I'm making - I know there are documented accounts of men in the UK deliberately becoming HIV+ because they were isolated and/or socially awkward and were attracted to the support network they perceived HIV+ men as having access to.

Most people who don't know trans folk well aren't aware of all the hoops we're made to jump through in order for the doctors and surgeons to be confident that we know why we're doing what we're doing, so it's easy for them to assume you can do this on a whim or as a fashion statement. I notice my friends who aren't cool about this (very few) are either assuming it's just a passing fancy, or at the other extreme, they want to tell me how complicated and difficult it's going to be, because of course I haven't researched it properly(!).

We need to find more ways of educating people without lecturing them.

Ah that is a good point, seems like some cases of Munchausen syndrome and Munchausen by proxy are a perfect example of the mentality and ridiculous lengths some people will go through to get the attention they want/feel they need x_x

Well, and the fact that some people retransition or detransition suggests that some of those are indeed initially getting into it for the wrong reasons.

And there seems to be a strong "feminist" narrative that is pathologically unwilling to see anyone as a woman who wasn't born one biologically, so there's a lot of group conditioning going on, aside from any more mainstream hetero-/gender-normative prejudices.

For perspective, I've heard exactly the same kind of invective among gay men when talking about bisexuals.

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 03:58:41 AM
Maybe they see transfolk going to therapy and endos and etc. etc. and they're just jealous of all the "attention" we're getting :-\?

Semi-serious point I'm making - I know there are documented accounts of men in the UK deliberately becoming HIV+ because they were isolated and/or socially awkward and were attracted to the support network they perceived HIV+ men as having access to.

Most people who don't know trans folk well aren't aware of all the hoops we're made to jump through in order for the doctors and surgeons to be confident that we know why we're doing what we're doing, so it's easy for them to assume you can do this on a whim or as a fashion statement. I notice my friends who aren't cool about this (very few) are either assuming it's just a passing fancy, or at the other extreme, they want to tell me how complicated and difficult it's going to be, because of course I haven't researched it properly(!).

We need to find more ways of educating people without lecturing them.

Exactly. It's depressing when people make such assumptions :/

I think with any group of people, or just people in general, some of them are going to be full of sh**. And yes, I believe some of them will go to extremes because of it.

I would actually like to be normal, but not for those ignorant people.
And well... it's too late to be normal anyway.

The ironic thing is that so many people are "queer" in one way or another, that the "normal" people are in the minority  :-|.

Quote from: JayUnit on March 23, 2011, 08:13:54 AM
I think with any group of people, or just people in general, some of them are going to be full of sh**. And yes, I believe some of them will go to extremes because of it.

I completely agree. And hey, if they were stupid enough to medically transition then they'd become a real transsexual.

There's a girl on YouTube (username is MattzBoii) who socially transitioned to male at the age of 14. She went back to living as female because - and she actually said this - she missed being a lesbian. After asking a few questions on Formspring, she said that if she had the option at the time she would have started medical transition. She didn't really see it as a big deal at all because most of the effects of testosterone are reversible anyway. *Cough*.

In all honestly, I think there is somewhat of an FTM trend.

It doesn't matter who is trans and who is confussed.
We all have a life path to walk, things we need to learn and do to fulfil our lifes mission.
Those who detransition, and those who relise they are not trans somewhere along the way, all needed to learn something from this journey.
Regardless of the reasons someone starts to transition, they will learn some incredible life lessons that can only be learned by walking this path.

I think trend is a loaded term.

The internet is a place for people to 'try out' who they are and who they want to be in many different ways. Do I think there is a 'trend' for people to identify as trans? Quite possibly. Adolescence is a time of figuring out your identity, being confused, and the brain is still developing. Even though I think the classic statistics about transsexualism understates how prevalent it is, I am still highly suspicious that as many young people who claim to be trans - and probably believe that they are - actually *are* trans & will be as adults.

When I was growing up (yeah, this makes me sound old), there wasn't a "trend" of being emo, and there wasn't a "trend" of young people cutting themselves. Do I think that people didn't self-harm? I'm sure some did, but I do think that some disordered behaviors allow people to feed on one another, get ideas, and almost 'compete' (I'm thinking of eating disorders or other body dysmoprhic disorders), which means that technology & communication has probably made "trends" out of more disordered acts. While I view actual "gender identity disorder" as a medical condition and not a disorder, that doesn't mean that some of the people who THINK they have GID aren't actually disordered or confused. My hope is that advances in neuroscience may hold some keys and answers to figuring out what the condition known as GID really is and how it manifests itself, though I'm sure we're still quite a number of years away from having much to rely on.

That said: No one has any evidence about how many of the young FTMs out there (whether posting on youtube or forums or blogging) are *actually* transitioning. It really isn't so easy for teens under the age of 18 to just start HRT or get surgery. I don't think it is actually a "trend" until we have proof of actual transitions, rather than trans identification. Adolescents cutting their hair and calling themselves boy names or bro or binding their chests and even calling themselves "FTM" is definitely a "trend" - but it doesn't mean there is actually a trend of people who are and will ultimately transition to live lives as men.

I do fear that if transitioning were easier, especially for young teens, there would be a lot more de-transitioning going on, and it ultimately would harm the abilities of people who really do need to transition to do so. And I do find it difficult finding the right balance between supporting youth and teens - whether they are trans or not - and being open to the fact that not everyone who thinks he or she is trans really is or will be in the future.

Quote from: cynthialee on March 23, 2011, 10:10:24 AM
It doesn't matter who is trans and who is confussed.
We all have a life path to walk, things we need to learn and do to fulfil our lifes mission.
Those who detransition, and those who relise they are not trans somewhere along the way, all needed to learn something from this journey.
Regardless of the reasons someone starts to transition, they will learn some incredible life lessons that can only be learned by walking this path.

agree sfm

Just so it's clear, I wasn't making a judgement about people who de- or re-transition, I was just making the point that some people do that, and that some of those do so because they went into it and then found they'd made the wrong decision (at least at the time). So the non-trans public is right (though for the wrong reasons, mostly) if it thinks not everyone always makes the right decision (but that's within a huger human spectrum of people making wrong decisions during their learning-curve that we call life!). And anyway, that was just to lay another view alongside the "jealous of the attention" idea. Society is generally right behind people deciding to do big stuff at a young age so long as it's something declared normal (armed forces, sex, marriage) but as soon as something's not considered "normal", society thinks young people are incapable of deciding for themselves. It really wasn't so long ago in the UK that you were considered old enough at 16 to know who you wanted to ->-bleeped-<-, if it was girls you wanted to ->-bleeped-<- with - but for some reason you weren't considered old enough to know it might be guys until 5 years later (though at 16 you're old enough to kill people in wars). Weird world.

As for "trends", I suppose that there are more and younger people now than 5 or 10 years ago who know transition's a possibility, and who know not everyone in the world thinks it's crazy or evil, and who are therefore more open and public themselves about considering it as a possibility, desire, longing. So it might appear like a trend, but actually it's just that the volume got turned up :).

I assume you're talking about 'that blog.'  It's a terrible thing, but I can't look away!  The lesbian in question recently made a post "proving" that FTMs transition just to get male privilege, and that's the only reason.  Plenty of commentators disagreed with her, only to be told they were lying or delusional.  It's just... so sad to see someone so hateful, within our own community.  Not that she wants to be part of any "queer alphabet soup" as she calls it.  That's great Dirt, stick to your lesbian community then and stop stalking FTMs on Youtube.

Is there a trans trend?  Maybe so.  I know that on places like deviantART and anime forums, many girls become obsessed with bishounen/anime pretty boys and want to be like them.  However doing just a little bit of research on the effects of hormones will tell you that if you take T, you probably won't turn into something like that; you'll become hairy and manly.  The average, nontrans girl doesn't want that... I think it's good that it's so hard to get access to hormones and surgery, the system tends to filter out the people who aren't serious about it.

What stands out there for me is the difference between people who just want to look like the opposite gender (or an idealised fantasy of it), and people who just want to be the opposite gender (for whom looking the part may be very important, but is still secondary).

That blog woman is no part of any community I'm part of, that's for damn sure! If I could be bothered, I'd ask to see her official papers declaring her spokeswomyn on behalf of all womyn everywhyre.

Quote from: Sylvester on March 23, 2011, 11:33:35 AM
I assume you're talking about 'that blog.'  It's a terrible thing, but I can't look away!  The lesbian in question recently made a post "proving" that FTMs transition just to get male privilege, and that's the only reason.  Plenty of commentators disagreed with her, only to be told they were lying or delusional.  It's just... so sad to see someone so hateful, within our own community.  Not that she wants to be part of any "queer alphabet soup" as she calls it.  That's great Dirt, stick to your lesbian community then and stop stalking FTMs on Youtube.

I honestly believe she has bigger issues.  I think there is a bunch of internalized transphobia and jealousy against those who have admited their gender problems/are transitioning. 

I think that said blogger is sick and tired of people seeing her as a male due to her unique physiology that she has snaped and takes it out on those she resembles. Trans men.

I wasn't making a judgement about people who de- or re-transition
Sure you were:
Well, and the fact that some people retransition or detransition suggests that some of those are indeed initially getting into it for the wrong reasons.

There could be a host of reasons why they decide to do that, and to label them 'wrong' is a value judgement.

That being said there is a huge range of variation in GID, (in itself, a variation) and an ever expanding number of ways in which to become who you are.  Everyone who is trying has a few false starts, particularly in the beginning when all the choices do not seem as obvious.  There is also a problem with those of a limited imagination who can only ever see two choices, And then you have the problem of listening to those who would take the anecdotal evidence of their own life (hardly a source of objective knowledge) and extol it as gospel, and 'The Way' - and the "Right" way, or "Real" way at that.   

I can see how it'd seem like that value judgement if you didn't read it as I intended it, as "...for (what they obviously decided were) the wrong reasons..." - all I meant was the more general sense that when you're doing something and then decide to pause or stop, it's because you decide that carrying on at that time is wrong.

And then others choose to interpret that as invalidating that person's experience, or even that of everyone doing the "same thing".

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 03:58:41 AM

Semi-serious point I'm making - I know there are documented accounts of men in the UK deliberately becoming HIV+ because they were isolated and/or socially awkward and were attracted to the support network they perceived HIV+ men as having access to.

Say WHAT?
Oh, that's just twisted. Reminds me of this one girl on Deviantart who seems to almost glorify AIDS. All her little OC-characters have AIDS. And drug addictions. And melodramatically tragic backstories.
It's actually kind of disgusting.

Quote from: Sean on March 23, 2011, 10:57:05 AM
I don't think it is actually a "trend" until we have proof of actual transitions, rather than trans identification.

When you say "actual transitions," I'm assuming you mean medical (hormone therapy/surgery) transition. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I just wanted to point out that no matter what stage you are at in your transition or how you handle your transition (HRT and top/bottom surgery, just top surgery, just HRT, being non-op for any reason be it financial issues, against your moral compass or religious beliefs, unable to seek help, etc etc), doesn't make you any less valid as being transgender than the next person. Yes, there are supposedly "posers" out there, but each person is choosing to transition for one reason or another. It can be difficult to pick out who is doing it sincerely or is doing it for attention, but if your transition is very important to you, should it really matter whether or not someone else around the block is as serious about their transition? Stop focusing on others and focus on yourself, your well being, and your personal goals and maybe there would be less "posers" or people trying to fit into a trend just because "it's cool and everyone else is doing it". I hope I haven't offended anyone, just stating my opinion.

Quote from: Kohdy on March 23, 2011, 01:22:53 PM
When you say "actual transitions," I'm assuming you mean medical (hormone therapy/surgery) transition. Please correct me if I am wrong.
]

You have misunderstood me.

When I say "actual transitions," I do NOT mean medical transition.

I am referring to what most people would consider "Full-time" or "RLE" of living in the transitioned sex.

It does not take hormones or surgery to do this. It doesn't even necessarily require a full and comprehensive legal recognition of the new sex (in part because that's not always possible).

You can be trans or have a trans identity without transitioning. I'm sure there are a lot of people like that. And there is no magic moment of transition or "done" clock that tells you "a-ha! now you have transitioned."

But there is no "trend of transitioners" without people who are actually transitioned and living on the other side of the binary (and of course not everyone has to accept or adopt the binary anyway).

I don't view most young people who wish to transition or begin steps toward a more male presentation as actually living as the other sex, not because they lack medical transition, but because they lack most steps of social transition. They are typically not attending schools as male, and they are often not even out to their families or friends or social networks. Transition may be a goal or a wish or a desire. It isn't their reality, no matter what haircut they have.

Ok thank you for clarifying. I'm not familiar with these young people who are "transition-trending" because I don't seek them out myself, and don't understand the concept of how it could be a trend in the first place.

Quote from: cynthialee on March 23, 2011, 10:10:24 AM
It doesn't matter who is trans and who is confussed.
We all have a life path to walk, things we need to learn and do to fulfil our lifes mission.
Those who detransition, and those who relise they are not trans somewhere along the way, all needed to learn something from this journey.
Regardless of the reasons someone starts to transition, they will learn some incredible life lessons that can only be learned by walking this path.

^Very well put cynthialee. I suppose it's not really our job to judge is it? :)

Interesting. I just came over here after reading this article a friend sent me:

Gender bending: let me count the ways
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/gender_bending_let_me_count_the_ways/ (http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/gender_bending_let_me_count_the_ways/)

And instead of posting a new topic, I'll just throw it into here because it kinda fits.

On one side, I think it's important for people to just be themselves - to be allowed to be themselves (so long as it doesn't involve anything illegal or hurting someone else) and like other people have said here already, your mind changes all the time about who you ARE. We're all in a state of evolution (or we should be) in that we're trying to be the best people we can be ... we're trying to be happy, etc. If someone feels they are trans but then realize that their mind or viewpoint changes, that's part of personal evolution. This is part of the reason why I hate labels at all.

That article mentions something like 23 different "variations" of "gender" among other points. Personally, I feel that some of the classifications are more sexual fetish than they are gender choice. It'd be like comparing "furries" to transsexuals ... or not really comparing but lumping them in the same category - which obviously they are not. I don't have any kind of personal problem if someone wants to be a furry ... or if someone wants to call themselves pansexual or whatever. You can all yourself a purple potato and I'll be like, "ok, if that makes you happy, then by all means go for it". But I can also see the realistic viewpoint in that there's a ton of levels where gender applies in society - we're not there as a culture, race, society, etc. for all of us to accept it all. I can also see how some people actually mistake trans(gender/sexual) for a fetish rather than a condition.

Now, getting back to the original, "I just can't really tell who's like... seriously transgendered". For me, personally, I always had a problem with being called transsexual (although I've been called transgendered by psychologists as well - seemed to shift based on their own personal viewpoint as to what they'd "diagnose" me as) because it is a construct of the psychological field in the way it is classed "medically". So is homosexuality if you want to get right down to it. By that I mean that at a point in time, psychologists had deemed that to be a disease - an abnormality - a disorder. Unlike a medical doctor diagnosing a disease of the body, we have psychologists basically judging other people based on the way their minds work - the way they feel love - the way they view their own body. These are not diseases to me. It's not like schizophrenia or other detrimental psychological conditions. You're not crazy if you feel you were "born in the wrong body" but psychologists for a very long time classified it as crazy (probably still are some today that do as well).

That bit about psychology is just my opinion of course. I realize that the field DOES help some people. I'm also fully aware that without a diagnosis one can not peruse things like HRT, surgery, etc. I know that many are actually relieved when they get a diagnosis such as being transsexual because it "fits" - it makes sense of why things were not "normal" for them for however much time passed before they sought help and it's the 1st step in doing what we now all call "transition". But there is a detrimental side to it imo. I'm not one of those people who were helped at all by it, so yeah I have that different viewpoint but can at least acknowledge that it works for some people. Everyone is different.

I can't "tell" who's transgendered either - especially on the internet where anyone can basically be anything they want. On a personal level, it might not matter to me. Because psychology is involved, because being trans effects everything about someone's life from their interaction with their families to their work to the laws that effect them, it does matter.

I'm in between in trying to digest some of the points brought up in that linked article for example. It seems a great many things are in flux, some things are beneficial, some are detrimental when it comes to gender and acceptance.

In regards to the trend thing - someone else brought up when they were growing up there was no trend of emo or cutting yourself. I can totally relate to this because not only did that not exist when I was growing up but transition itself was not a well-known thing. It was a very rare thing and I don't think I even became aware of it until I was well into my 20s. Would I have opted for something like that had I known about it when I was 14? I can't really say because my 14 year old mind was a lot different from my mind now. I knew a lot less things about the world and myself and I can definitely admit that I made a lot of other ignorant decisions about other things at that age so I'm kind of thankful in a way it wasn't an option to me early on.

idk about trans trending, but i do think some people get over excited and start physically transitioning before they are ready for it.

Quote from: Mark on March 23, 2011, 04:42:55 PM
idk about trans trending, but i do think some people get over excited and start physically transitioning before they are ready for it.

Yeah I've noticed some of this sometimes, not so much the "trans-trend" stuff...

Quote from: Birgitta on March 23, 2011, 08:43:53 AM
I would actually like to be normal, but not for those ignorant people.
And well... it's too late to be normal anyway.

When I said something to my therapist about wanting to be normal, he said, "You ARE normal--you're a normal transsexual."

Sometimes, in my darker moments, I still think that's an oxymoron, but I get his point.

Quote from: Kohdy on March 23, 2011, 01:22:53 PM
When you say "actual transitions," I'm assuming you mean medical (hormone therapy/surgery) transition. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I just wanted to point out that no matter what stage you are at in your transition or how you handle your transition (HRT and top/bottom surgery, just top surgery, just HRT, being non-op for any reason be it financial issues, against your moral compass or religious beliefs, unable to seek help, etc etc), doesn't make you any less valid as being transgender than the next person. Yes, there are supposedly "posers" out there, but each person is choosing to transition for one reason or another. It can be difficult to pick out who is doing it sincerely or is doing it for attention, but if your transition is very important to you, should it really matter whether or not someone else around the block is as serious about their transition? Stop focusing on others and focus on yourself, your well being, and your personal goals and maybe there would be less "posers" or people trying to fit into a trend just because "it's cool and everyone else is doing it". I hope I haven't offended anyone, just stating my opinion.

I TOTALLY agree with you 100%!

Quote from: Caleb Jeremy on March 23, 2011, 05:24:23 PM
I agree with the folks who say that transition should remain a little more difficult to access.

I've been living as a guy since October 2009. So...it'll be about two years of RLE before I actually start T. Now, I am just as trans as I was two years ago but I have evolved SUBSTANTIALLY. If I had been able to take T two years ago I would not have been ready emotionally. I can't say what effect it would have on me, probably still good as I am a true transsexual, been approved for T without question by...like 7 people in total? medical and psychological doctors. So T may have been beneficial at the time in some ways, but having this waiting period has allowed me to evolve as a man, as a person.

Sadly, I have had the very unsettling feeling that there is somewhat of an FTM trend going on. I hate that because I feel like I am discrediting others' feelings and identities but I think there are people who transition who would never have even wanted to live as men if they didn't know the option was there. I wanted to be a man with everything I had, and as soon as I learned that the option was there it was like a dream come true. It wasn't an option, it was the answer.

You bring up a really good point - "transition should remain a little more difficult to access." I'd actually add the word medical in front of transition there. I'm sure a lot of people would have a difference of opinion on that but it's just like in the article I posted in my earlier response - it's kind of a "where do we draw a line" question. I think we're all well aware of how much variation there is out there but what about legal and safety issues? I don't think it's necessarily discrediting others feelings and identities, but there does need to be the system of checks and balances. There's laws and rules and all that for a reason.

Although I don't personally agree that being "trans" is a mental disorder or disease of any sort (I think it's a perfectly natural human variation and occurrence), it's not "normal" as viewed by the bulk of society and its bi-gender rules and therefore we all have to deal within those. Also, without some sort of medical diagnosis it's even hard to do a RLE thing. I know some have and then there's people like me who kind of walk the line or just choose to be androgynous to most of society without taking medical or legal steps to transition, but I'm sure certain situations can get difficult. Work, travel, etc. You get "caught" using a women's restroom and you have a male body (or vice versa) can get you in trouble. If you have a letter from a psychologist that you're doing RLE and have a diagnosis, that can get you out of trouble.

Quote from: Mark on March 23, 2011, 04:42:55 PM
idk about trans trending, but i do think some people get over excited and start physically transitioning before they are ready for it.

can you elaborate on this? 

People will use anything to be "special" and "unique" (which includes being anorexic, bisexual, or having any sort of a mental disorder)  "Being trans" is no different.  Those fakers tend to be extremely annoying and sometimes it is hard to pick them out.  I've seen this first hand and it's extremely sad.  They tend to be very dramatic and love to draw in attention because they cannot handle their real issues (most people who do fake disorders and such normally have a different kind of problem, so that problem gets pushed back to make room for the fake problem): so it puts a bad name on everyone else who can't see (or know) the difference.  It also makes the real problem fester...so it's just a cycle.

Quote from: Rain on March 23, 2011, 08:08:11 PM
Being anorexic, being bisexual, having any sort of mental disorder, it's all just dumb fads some people use to try to get attention or feel special.  "Being trans" is no different.  Those people are extremely annoying and sometimes it is hard to pick them out.  I've seen this first hand and it's extremely sad.  They tend to be very dramatic and love to draw in attention: so it puts a bad name on everyone else who can't see (or know) the difference.

lol r u srs? 

I don't know about the others, but being bisexual kind-of is a trend. It can make it harder for people who are actually bisexual to come out. Well, that among other reasons....

Quote from: Rain on March 23, 2011, 08:08:11 PM
Being anorexic, being bisexual, having any sort of mental disorder, it's all just dumb fads some people use to try to get attention or feel special.  "Being trans" is no different.  Those people are extremely annoying and sometimes it is hard to pick them out.  I've seen this first hand and it's extremely sad.  They tend to be very dramatic and love to draw in attention: so it puts a bad name on everyone else who can't see (or know) the difference.

so legitimately having low self confidence, feeling desires for both sexes, being born with a mental disorder, or struggling with gender identity makes a person one who "loves to draw in attention"?
you might want to reword this.

Quote from: Andy8715 on March 23, 2011, 08:37:10 PM
lol r u srs?

Yeah I am.  Say, a young girl goes online, seeing the word "transsexual" and then she goes "Hm, wonder what that is!"  So she googles it, and goes "Wow!  I must be transsexual because I hate my period too!"  So then she tries to get all involved, gets support, cuts her hair, "becomes" attracted to girls, insists everyone call her a "he", and loudly lets everyone who she is a proud transsexual and has embraced her manhood.  She complains all the time about being called a girl and having breasts and colors "->-bleeped-<- Pride!" on her notebooks and all that.  This goes on until time passes and she matures and realizes she really isn't a transsexual at all (the fad goes away).  So she just goes on with life as a normal female from then on.  I know it seems like she could have been, but it's often really hard to tell.  So, nothing you can do about it really.  They have to just grow up until they mature or can face the actual issue. (And no offensive to people who are doing this/did this.  I'm only talking about the fakers.  Everybody is different in how they discovered themselves, and if you went through this exactly then more power to you.)

Quote from: mL on March 23, 2011, 09:02:01 PM
so legitimately having low self confidence, feeling desires for both sexes, being born with a mental disorder, or struggling with gender identity makes a person one who "loves to draw in attention"?
you might want to reword this.

Oh no, I just meant for those few who fake it to draw attention. 

It's like with everything else, there's always a bunch of asses giving the larger group a bad name.

Quote from: Andy8715 on March 23, 2011, 07:24:17 PM
can you elaborate on this? 

What I meant by this was that sometimes people will read about being transgendered and instantly think its the right choice for them. Such as gettin on T and getting top surgery before really taking time to think about it for more then a few months. I have known a few people who THOUGHT they were trans, but later realized they were not trans but just a masc women or fem male. Sometimes people confuse the two in the race to find themselves. If those people were to have jumped on T and having surgery before sitting down and really understanding themselves, they might have made a mistake for them personally. When people start HRT and later ask questions that they should have researched way before they even thought about HRT (such as effects and perm changes), i think they may have jumped the gun.

Quote from: Fumbling Towards Ecstasy on March 23, 2011, 08:39:38 PM
I don't know about the others, but being bisexual kind-of is a trend. It can make it harder for people who are actually bisexual to come out. Well, that among other reasons....

I def agree with you on this one. It was a BIG thing back in at my high school, mostly females though.

Reading back over this, I'm finding myself wanting to make a further distinction. I'm not that comfortable with the term "faker" - I get that there are a small number of people who get into things because they need the attention; or because they need to divert the attention away from something else they can't cope with right now (and I think coping strategies are not to be dismissed, they got most of us as far as we are today!) and I think "faker" is pretty harsh, but I can see how it fits from the point of view of people genuinely dealing with gender issues who are frustrated with being lumped in with the above.

But I think there's a category we've been referring to here of people who are in some way genderfluid, but aren't ready to do more than dip their toes into it and see how it feels; and that's not "faking" in my book, so I've decided to take a stab at coining a new term for them: how do you like "gendercurious"? :)

Quote from: Rain on March 23, 2011, 09:06:32 PM
Yeah I am.  Say, a young girl goes online, seeing the word "transsexual" and then she goes "Hm, wonder what that is!"  So she googles it, and goes "Wow!  I must be transsexual because I hate my period too!"  So then she tries to get all involved, gets support, cuts her hair, "becomes" attracted to girls, insists everyone call her a "he", and loudly lets everyone who she is a proud transsexual and has embraced her manhood.  She complains all the time about being called a girl and having breasts and colors "->-bleeped-<- Pride!" on her notebooks and all that.  This goes on until time passes and she matures and realizes she really isn't a transsexual at all (the fad goes away).  So she just goes on with life as a normal female from then on.  I know it seems like she could have been, but it's often really hard to tell.  So, nothing you can do about it really.  They have to just grow up until they mature or can face the actual issue. (And no offensive to people who are doing this/did this.  I'm only talking about the fakers.  Everybody is different in how they discovered themselves, and if you went through this exactly then more power to you.)

If she legitimately believes herself to be transgender then I don't think it's really a fad. If she's not doing it to be trendy, but instead is doing it because she thinks that it might help her on the path to finding out who she is and how she identifies then there is not a problem. If she was identifying as trans just because she thought it was cool, that would be another thing entirely. The wording in this honestly makes me a little uneasy, because I don't think anyone in the situation you described could really be described as a "faker". It was the right choice for them at the time.  :-\

Kohdy, when I though of gendercurious, I was pleased because it also deliberately avoids using 'trans-' (which to me still implies some kind of transition taking place), and instead validates just exploration without requiring a 'transition identity'.

I'm not the first person to coin it, as it turns out (no big surprise). I have no investment in it catching on here (well, hardly any...:))

It's like with everything else, there's always a bunch of asses giving the larger group a bad name.

1% is the standard theory here, taking off from a reference to a statement by the American Motorcycle Association that 99 percent of American motorcyclists are law-abiding. The association made this statement denouncing a violent incident between two early outlaw biker groups in Hollister, California, in 1947.  The AMA denies ever saying this, still it has stuck and spread to other areas.

But that's not who were really talking about.  The problem comes not from the asses, since those 1% people - by nature - are not listening to anyone else anyway. Christine Jorgenson, Jameson Green, and Rennie Richards were 1%ers, most pioneers are.  They too were accused of all sorts of stuff, including the feared 'giving some group a bad name.'   

Nope, this problem comes from those who are seen to be now joining in, piling on, faking it, being some sort of gender poseurs, interlopers, or those who have just absently-minded just sort of wandered in.  Or so it would seem.

What you have here is the the problem of listening to those who would take the anecdotal evidence of their own life (hardly a source of objective knowledge) and extol it as gospel, and 'The Way' - and the "Right" way, or "Real" way at that, as someone said on the first page.  So statements like: If I had been able to take T two years ago I would not have been ready emotionally, fit in perfectly.  Or, two years ago but I have evolved SUBSTANTIALLY. 

I mean just because you were not ready 2 years ago what proof do we have that:
a) everybody else was/was not ready in the same amount of time as you were,
b) that two more years made you more ready (would 4 years then have made you 2x as ready?)
c) would ten more years make you ten times more evolved,
- but mostly -
d) what do your very limited (we're talking a set of one), and highly personal experiences have to do with making decisions for an entire group of people?

So, here we are after decades and decades of trying to open up this process to all who would benefit from it now debating making it harder because 'those ->-bleeped-<-s now, they're not like we were, no, they are not as serious etc.'

What funny (at least to me because I worship irony) is that the arguments some people are now using on others are EXACTLY the same arguments that were used on them.

You know what, even if it is trendy (oh do people hate to be told their little rebellion is just a fad), or a bad choice, or a flat out stupid choice (as it's going to prove for a whole lot of people, but then again so are marriage and college just to name two other huge mistakes for most people) we can be sure about two things.
1. It's not YOUR choice.
2. It's most likely not even your place to say.

I wonder - well I do more than that actually - if a lot of what I'm reading above is that as this phenomena (much better word than 'trend') grows (because understanding, services, theories and treatments has both expanded and in many cases been reduced in price so it's open to more people) if the real problem is that as all that happens it becomes less of a thing, less of 'special' deal, and more of an everyday occurrence and that in some way detracts from you being special.  And that's the problem, their standing up saying "Look at me" takes away from the number of people who are looking at you.

there are people who transition who would never have even wanted to live as men if they didn't know the option was there.
So we should shut down the net, hide what we know, cut back on education and outreach?  I mean, that was exactly and precisely the point of doing all of that in the first place. 

it's kind of a "where do we draw a line" question.
Where we draw the line is of much less interest to me than who gets to draw that line - that tends to be the problematic issue.  And, the line was drawn years ago - amidst much argument - that 'if you say you are, you are.'  That it.  That's all.  No matter how much or little HRT/GCS you have had, or how much RLT you've lived through - if you say you are, you are.

So now you want to push that back a little?  A lot?  And who decides?  Having given into demand, the TS professional ranks (mostly medical) have grown in both numbers and power, and they tend to be in control over most of the process, should that power be taken away?  If so, who should the new gatekeepers be?  What would their set of hoops look like?

Sounds a lot to me like the old California distinction between a conservationist and a developer.

The conservationist is the guy who is already living in his house on the hill, the developer is the guy who now wants to build his house on the hill.

Really, y'all are beginning to sound like Gramps prattling on about how back in the day he had to walk five miles through the snow, uphill both ways, just to get HRT when he's not yelling at the kids to get off his lawn.

Be very, very, very careful about calling down others for being 'not real', fake, in it for the wrong reasons, having not 'really thought it out and thought it through', least any of those standards come back to haunt you.

Quote from: tekla on March 24, 2011, 10:47:18 AM
It's like with everything else, there's always a bunch of asses giving the larger group a bad name.

1% is the standard theory here, taking off from a reference to a statement by the American Motorcycle Association that 99 percent of American motorcyclists are law-abiding. The association made this statement denouncing a violent incident between two early outlaw biker groups in Hollister, California, in 1947.  The AMA denies ever saying this, still it has stuck and spread to other areas.

But that's not who were really talking about.  The problem comes not from the asses, since those 1% people - by nature - are not listening to anyone else anyway. Christine Jorgenson, Jameson Green, and Rennie Richards were 1%ers, most pioneers are.  They too were accused of all sorts of stuff, including the feared 'giving some group a bad name.'   

Nope, this problem comes from those who are seen to be now joining in, piling on, faking it, being some sort of gender poseurs, interlopers, or those who have just absently-minded just sort of wandered in.  Or so it would seem.

What you have here is the the problem of listening to those who would take the anecdotal evidence of their own life (hardly a source of objective knowledge) and extol it as gospel, and 'The Way' - and the "Right" way, or "Real" way at that, as someone said on the first page.  So statements like: If I had been able to take T two years ago I would not have been ready emotionally, fit in perfectly.  Or, two years ago but I have evolved SUBSTANTIALLY. 

I mean just because you were not ready 2 years ago what proof do we have that:
a) everybody else was/was not ready in the same amount of time as you were,
b) that two more years made you more ready (would 4 years then have made you 2x as ready?)
c) would ten more years make you ten times more evolved,
- but mostly -
d) what do your very limited (we're talking a set of one), and highly personal experiences have to do with making decisions for an entire group of people?

So, here we are after decades and decades of trying to open up this process to all who would benefit from it now debating making it harder because 'those ->-bleeped-<-s now, they're not like we were, no, they are not as serious etc.'

What funny (at least to me because I worship irony) is that the arguments some people are now using on others are EXACTLY the same arguments that were used on them.

You know what, even if it is trendy (oh do people hate to be told their little rebellion is just a fad), or a bad choice, or a flat out stupid choice (as it's going to prove for a whole lot of people, but then again so are marriage and college just to name two other huge mistakes for most people) we can be sure about two things.
1. It's not YOUR choice.
2. It's most likely not even your place to say.

I wonder - well I do more than that actually - if a lot of what I'm reading above is that as this phenomena (much better word than 'trend') grows (because understanding, services, theories and treatments has both expanded and in many cases been reduced in price so it's open to more people) if the real problem is that as all that happens it becomes less of a thing, less of 'special' deal, and more of an everyday occurrence and that in some way detracts from you being special.  And that's the problem, their standing up saying "Look at me" takes away from the number of people who are looking at you.

there are people who transition who would never have even wanted to live as men if they didn't know the option was there.
So we should shut down the net, hide what we know, cut back on education and outreach?  I mean, that was exactly and precisely the point of doing all of that in the first place. 

it's kind of a "where do we draw a line" question.
Where we draw the line is of much less interest to me than who gets to draw that line - that tends to be the problematic issue.  And, the line was drawn years ago - amidst much argument - that 'if you say you are, you are.'  That it.  That's all.  No matter how much or little HRT/GCS you have had, or how much RLT you've lived through - if you say you are, you are.

So now you want to push that back a little?  A lot?  And who decides?  Having given into demand, the TS professional ranks (mostly medical) have grown in both numbers and power, and they tend to be in control over most of the process, should that power be taken away?  If so, who should the new gatekeepers be?  What would their set of hoops look like?

Sounds a lot to me like the old California distinction between a conservationist and a developer.

The conservationist is the guy who is already living in his house on the hill, the developer is the guy who now wants to build his house on the hill.

Really, y'all are beginning to sound like Gramps prattling on about how back in the day he had to walk five miles through the snow, uphill both ways, just to get HRT when he's not yelling at the kids to get off his lawn.

Be very, very, very careful about calling down others for being 'not real', fake, in it for the wrong reasons, having not 'really thought it out and thought it through', least any of those standards come back to haunt you.

So well written.  I agree so hard with all of this but am not near a good enough writer or thinker to have put it down like this. 

Quote from: tekla on March 24, 2011, 10:47:18 AM
it's kind of a "where do we draw a line" question.
Where we draw the line is of much less interest to me than who gets to draw that line - that tends to be the problematic issue.  And, the line was drawn years ago - amidst much argument - that 'if you say you are, you are.'  That it.  That's all.  No matter how much or little HRT/GCS you have had, or how much RLT you've lived through - if you say you are, you are.

So now you want to push that back a little?  A lot?  And who decides?  Having given into demand, the TS professional ranks (mostly medical) have grown in both numbers and power, and they tend to be in control over most of the process, should that power be taken away?  If so, who should the new gatekeepers be?  What would their set of hoops look like?

Who decides is not us as far as it comes to a medical or legal level. Psychologists decided a long time ago for all of us that we're all mentally ill. Over time those psychologists have "lessened" that to a "disorder" but they're still the ones making the real decisions about who is and who isn't. To me, most of them have no business making those decisions, but we're all stuck with that and the consequent medical requirements and laws put into place, etc. So at best, it will be the medical field deciding - at worst it could be some conservative, bible-banging judge.

The power that we have is whether to get in or stay out of the system. For many, there's really no choice because they're facing suicide if they can't do something to align the body with the mind - so they're basically forced into the system and have to play by the system's rules. Many people willingly get into the system, but may find out that it wasn't what they were looking for. That's their personal choice though, it's not for me to say.

I think what some people are getting at is that since it's one of those drastic life choices, the upper choices (medical treatments beyond simple therapy) in the system should be more in favor of helping those who can not go on without treatment rather than those who are just questioning. Going to college or getting married is not going to change your physical gender.

However, you can go down to a body piercing shop and put 18 rods through your dick if that's what floats your boat and there's no law against that. You don't have to go to a shrink first and tell him all about your life and why you feel your life would be better with a bunch of metal pierced through your body.

Why are some things considered "body modification" and can be done at a private business and other things like taking HRT to change your body in such a way as to develop breasts or grow a beard require you to jump through a myriad of hoops? (Besides the obvious that HRT requires a prescription, of course.) Getting tattoos, piercing your body, etc isn't changing your gender. That's where the gist of all of this lies. Gender is society's pandora's box - it's still some taboo thing, unlike getting a tattoo. No matter whether people want to admit it or not, changing your gender just goes too much against the grain of society's constructs so of course there's going to be a lot more hoopla over that.

The more segments of the society open up and we have 23+ terms for various ways people view their gender or sexuality it'll only complicate the system. Can someone who identifies as genderqueer get HRT or surgery? Will there one day be HRT shops alongside piercing shops? That's the type of "line" I'm talking about but we're still not the ones to have the final say where it's drawn. We can come up with 100 different definitions for ourselves and those can work out just fine in our private lives but it won't work throughout society (or in every part of the world). If you go to the doctor, they're still going to want you to check off "M" or "F" so they can base their medical treatment of your physical body on your chosen selection (unless of course you're intersex or have undergone surgery and then you can put a check box in both or neither and then do some explaining).

"You are who you say you are" is a very adult way of thinking and being. It's not wrong. But it has very little to inform us about how children and adolescents should be treated. If I sound like a grampa in my own lawn chair, so be it. I still don't tihnk "kids these days" should have the same set of choices that adults do, because I think it's pretty clear that youth don't have the same ability to process information or the same self-awareness that adults do.

Kids have rights too. What's been happening to intersexual, transsexual and other gender variant, non-binary or noncomforing youth and teens is absolutely horrible. I think what you've shared in other threads (insideontheoutside) is absolutely horrifying, and of course, it calls into question WHO has been allowed to make decisons about treating kids who are incapable of consenting or deliberately lied to.

At the same time, there SHOULD be some form of recognition that how we treat young people when the brain is nowhere near finished developing and identity is not remotely fixed or understood need NOT mirror how we treat adults or wish ourselves to be treated.

There ARE laws against getting a tattoo or shoving metal through your body if you are below a certain age.

The fact that the people in power have oppressed and mistreated trans people (and others) does not mean that the best reaction is eliminating ALL barriers to free choice and consent, even for people whose age and brain development means that they are INCAPABLE of actual free choice and consent.

Kids are not miniature adults. Teenagers are not miniature adults. They are real people with real problems and real needs, and they need these problems solved with solutions that can acknowledge the role of information, consent & choice in age-appropriate ways. It does everyone a disservice to suggest that we are all the same or that adult experiences can be translated or projected onto the experience of children and teenagers to extrapolate or predict what can or should happen.

Quote from: Sean on March 24, 2011, 03:21:16 PM
There ARE laws against getting a tattoo or shoving metal through your body if you are below a certain age.

Yeah you're totally right there - under 18 you really do not have choices in that front along with many others because in our society you're not "legal" until after that age.

And you bring up a lot of excellent points that I totally left out - the under 18, youth crowd is totally different from the adult crowd (and really, even when you are 18 that doesn't magically change your brain ... hell I wouldn't have even considered myself as adult and mature at age 25!) and that has to be acknowledged. The teen years in general are an exploratory realm where you're trying to figure stuff out, you're more easily influenced by what your friends/peers are doing, etc.

Kids do have rights, but the adults in their lives are still left to make decisions when it comes to medical treatments, etc. By all means they should be allowed therapy and other forms of help and guidance.

This is true - though for me it's an issue not of "rights" but of responsibility. If someone's not able to be responsible yet (e.g. through immaturity), someone else (or the state) has to take that on for them until they can be - and ideally is teaching them how to be responsible, but that's another story!

EDIT: and of course, one person at 16 can be way more mature and responsible than the next 25-year-old, which is where part of the problem lies. Societies generally operate on a one-size-fits-all system when it comes to age and consent and so on, and each one assumes it's got it right - but then why are ages of consent (for all kinds of different activities) so different in different countries? And why is it always assumed that you're able to make a responsible decision younger, if the choice you're making happens to be the "normal" one (e.g. different ages of consent for gay/het sex)?

Quote from: insideontheoutside on March 24, 2011, 02:48:19 PMWe can come up with 100 different definitions for ourselves and those can work out just fine in our private lives but it won't work throughout society

That sounds like a problem with society, not with me.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on March 24, 2011, 05:16:26 PM
That sounds like a problem with society, not with me.

And we are subject to "society's problems". We also can't expect the whole world to just acknowledge whatever personal definition we come up with next. Sure someone can say, "I'm now male, but I was born female" but because that deals with gender society then deals with it a certain way. Someone can also say, "I am now a genderless banana, even though I was born male". Yes, that's a flippant example but society and all its laws and rules and regulations does not have a place for genderless bananas. You can call yourself whatever you want but in "the system" you have to deal with what's set up.

Quote from: yoxi on March 24, 2011, 03:15:35 AM
Reading back over this, I'm finding myself wanting to make a further distinction. I'm not that comfortable with the term "faker" - I get that there are a small number of people who get into things because they need the attention; or because they need to divert the attention away from something else they can't cope with right now (and I think coping strategies are not to be dismissed, they got most of us as far as we are today!) and I think "faker" is pretty harsh, but I can see how it fits from the point of view of people genuinely dealing with gender issues who are frustrated with being lumped in with the above.

But I think there's a category we've been referring to here of people who are in some way genderfluid, but aren't ready to do more than dip their toes into it and see how it feels; and that's not "faking" in my book, so I've decided to take a stab at coining a new term for them: how do you like "gendercurious"? :)

Hmmm, this is true.  I'll have to re-think some of what I said, because that's a good point.

QuoteI talked to a kid who has posted near complains about trending(?) FTM. She said something along the line of "many of them are transgendered/transsexual just to be different or attention or for fashion" So I asked her why because it wasn't first time seeing this and I'm thinking is that something have to do with masculinity or fitting into the traditional male stereotype? I didn't ask her more because she didn't sound want to be bothered so.. 

sound to me like some transphobic butch lesbian  blogger got to this kid

Quote from: insideontheoutside on March 24, 2011, 05:49:51 PMSomeone can also say, "I am now a genderless banana, even though I was born male". Yes, that's a flippant example but society and all its laws and rules and regulations does not have a place for genderless bananas. You can call yourself whatever you want but in "the system" you have to deal with what's set up.

Then I'll make the system deal with genderless bananas.

My opinion: It's not really our business to decide who's "fake" and who's "real." Leave that for the person themselves to decide.

I agree - let's start by giving them the benefit of the doubt. And by being honest with ourselves (for example, the question "Am I more likely to think of someone as 'faking' if I don't like them very much anyway?" is probably worth asking).

Quote from: Espenoah on March 25, 2011, 02:45:31 AM
My opinion: It's not really our business to decide who's "fake" and who's "real." Leave that for the person themselves to decide.

That's what I've been thinking. It's not our place to say who's real and who's not.

Yoxi: thanks for coming up with the term "gendercurious" ;)

I like the term "gendercurious". I think it fits me well.