Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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I just have to say that the typo in the title is inspired.  ;D

(and no I really don't mean to be unkind)

I just love the idea of a feminist with a tiny Transwoman stuck to her head like a hat!  :laugh:

Sorry

J. x

I saw it more as rabid feminists dashing around catching transwomen in giant hats like butterfly nets :).

But to (not properly) answer the question, only some of them do. Probably most women who think of themselves as feminists don't hate transwomen. This reminds me of a saying I heard (I've replaced the first word, because it's a flexible saying!):

Feminism is like a swimming pool - all the noise is at the shallow end.

The noisiest feminists tend to be the ones with the most extreme views, so we don't get to hear what all the rest think.

I think that it's unfair to accuse all feminists of this as a lot of them are staunch trans allies. But yes those 2nd gen radfems that hat us, hat us good!

I neither really know or care why. (the first part isn't really true but I find their opinions so insulting that I'm not giving it head space)

I do have to agree that accusing all feminists of hating transwomen is a bit of a stretch. Some also hate transmen and feel that we're "giving up" our "femininity" for "privilege" **insert eyeroll**

That said, I've met some feminists like my aunts who have no problem with it. Women of all types (whether cis-gendered, bio-born or transsexed) face discrimination by patriarchal societies. And a true feminist, to me, would embrace her trans-sisters since there is far more discrimination for trans individuals, particularly (and I'm being realistic here) for trans women, than cis-gendered women.

If I may ask: given that you put the title entirely in caps, was there a specific event or something that has caused this rant?

there is one feminist that definately does hate transwomen, and she's been mentioned here before " " she's stolen ftm pics on here and talks about how it's a mistake for them to be transitioning. i think it comes from their idea of "female superiority," and thinking that transwomen are not "real women," but just men who are trying to be women, and disgrace their name. it's weird though. feminists seem to be masculine in their behaviour, by trying to prove they are men's equals. lots of them are what you call "butch lesbians," and they identify as female, yet act very masculine in behaviour. they think men are the enemy for the most part, so they take a transwoman as a disgrace to womanhood.

^edit-name

Not all feminists hate transwomen... But the ones that do... It's because we have cuter bums  :laugh:

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on March 29, 2011, 07:27:21 PM
there is one feminist that definately does hate transwomen, and she's been mentioned here before "dirtywhiteboi." she's stolen ftm pics on here and talks about how it's a mistake for them to be transitioning. i think it comes from their idea of "female superiority," and thinking that transwomen are not "real women," but just men who are trying to be women, and disgrace their name. it's weird though. feminists seem to be masculine in their behaviour, by trying to prove they are men's equals. lots of them are what you call "butch lesbians," and they identify as female, yet act very masculine in behaviour. they think men are the enemy for the most part, so they take a transwoman as a disgrace to womanhood.

Seriously, I don't classify her as a feminist. She is a bigot, plain and simple. And I dislike that we give her so much attention (that would equate to her having power over who we are.. and she doesn't, IMO).

I'm an admin and member of a butch-femme website and have gotten nothing but respect from the feminists there (who, I might add, are mostly femme). The idea that all lesbians are butch is a myth. Much like the rest of society they come in all flavours and types. A few do see men as the enemy but they aren't as common as we've been led to think. In fact, I've found those "types" of lesbians to be farther and fewer between than those who are supportive.

I do agree with Millie in that they are staunch allies. They recognize the challenge that transwomen face and that often it is the same challenges that they themselves face. Transwomen are really, when one actually thinks about it, in a great place to cause change that betters all women. They will/can push the bounderies of the "glass ceiling" and may even already be members of the CEO class of individuals (a place where we could use a few more women, IMO).

In my field (I'm a technical trainer in IT, specifically server/desktop virtualization), there are some women (most seem to fit into the programmer category) but few are technical trainers (the ones who pass on their vast knowledge to others). Most of my students are male and I do wish there were more female students. The advent of transwomen will likely bring some of that change. If bio-girls see that women do well and enjoy a field, then hopefully we'll see a new generation find interest in it. Seeing more transwomen take on the banner of feminist would be good. It's been done before and there is no reason that it should die out.

Quote from: Virginia Marie on March 29, 2011, 07:38:06 PM
Not all feminists hate transwomen... But the ones that do... It's because we have cuter bums  :laugh:

maybe it's because we don't have to menstruate.

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on March 29, 2011, 09:39:31 PM
maybe it's because we don't have to menstruate.

that is sooo true! But it may soon be possible!

Not all feminists hate trans people.  There is a wonderful feminist blog feminsting.com where there are transmen and transwomen on their editorial staff and they cover many trans issues with sensitivity and respect.

I have, however, met many lesbians (I don't know if they considered themselves as feminists) who were outright hostile to transwomen.  I don't know why - I walked away and didn't ask.

I understand it.  Feminists want to transcend gender and we're retrograde.  They want to move towards a gender-blind future, and we make gender pre-eminent.  They want to free women from what they call patriarchal-expectations about dress and behavior.  Here we go, men in their view, embracing and celebrating patriarchal-expectations of femininity.

It's been a big issue between me and the local Pride Center.  They don't want to acknowledge the differences between gay men and lesbians, whereas, if there were not significant differences between men and women, there wouldn't be much reason for anyone to change gender.  So we are philosophically opposed to each other.

It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that it was a radical fringe of the second wave of feminism that thought that trans-women were a method to put down the status of women.  I seem to remember that this group equated transsexual women with rape although I never understood this connection.  Many of them believed that a trans-woman was not a woman at all.  The third wave of feminism mostly overturned this garbage and all women are now accepted.

However, bigotry still exists and some groups, such as the one that runs the womyn for womyn music event (I forget where) will never accept trans-women to participate.  Sad isn't it?  I really don't care.  I know what I am and all those who think otherwise can get stuffed!

Teresa

Quote from: LadyTeresa on March 30, 2011, 03:03:37 PM
The third wave of feminism mostly overturned this garbage and all women are now accepted.

That's the party line, for sure.  But I don't think the majority of feminists really believe that, much less act that way.  That all/accepted thing was just to shut up the arguing.  All women are accepted, including those who don't acknowledge transwomen as women.  What do you really think of transwomen? is an open question that everybody decides on their on, and keeps it to themselves and those they know to be like-minded.

Quote from: GinaDouglas on March 30, 2011, 04:19:31 PM
That's the party line, for sure.  But I don't think the majority of feminists really believe that, much less act that way.  That all/accepted thing was just to shut up the arguing.  All women are accepted, including those who don't acknowledge transwomen as women.  What do you really think of transwomen? is an open question that everybody decides on their on, and keeps it to themselves and those they know to be like-minded.

I think that you have to be open minded about this. There will always be some people who are not accepting of us but a lot are and that has to be a good thing. I think that there is less of the division among younger transwomen and younger feminists, maybe they are just tired of the same old arguments on both sides.


Just a quick comment about your sig. I think that you mean Iran not Iraq. In Iraq this is what being trans will get you


The U.S don't seem too bad now eh?

I have herd lots of bigotries from within many cultural groups that clam to be about love, equality, peace, ect. It is ignorance. They get angry thinking we are going against our natural paths. It will be this way till people wake up much like ancient civilizations did and realize how mundane the transsexual mind views them.
( for some reason we see balance or lack there of and can advise twards a balanced civilizastion easyer.)
Most people around me that I have met pretty much have nothing more than a ,"sucks to be you" look as trans women and men. I even asked a bunch of people at a church neer me what they thought of trans, gay marrage ect. Nobody seemed to have an opinion at all. It is what it is and are confused why anyone gives a crap.
;D
Screeching Weasel - What We Hate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXDiJYMdfKU#)

That some women who style themselves "feminists" literally hate transwomen is indisputable.

The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male (1979) - Janice G. Raymond * Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0807762725) * WorldCat (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/4529467)

I saw at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival a small minority who were hostile to transwomen.
They seemed to be all in their 50's or older. Of course most over-50's and most of
the younger generation seems to be much more accepting and even supportive.

Let's not forget that one of the bastions of 2nd wave feminism, Gloria Steinham
is a good supporter and wrote an introduction to Julia Serano's book.

Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity (2007) - Julia Serano * Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1580051545) * WorldCat (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/81252738)

" Women are the BIGGEST threat and affront to the trans concept/trans ideology. Women remind Mtfs of the women they will NEVER be and women remind ftMs of the females they will ALWAYS be. " - name begins with a D.

Yea.....just wow....wow..

I agree she is not a feminist, she's a transphobic bigot.

Because everyone looks better in a spiffy hat.

Quote from: Shayne on March 30, 2011, 07:17:58 PM
" Women are the BIGGEST threat and affront to the trans concept/trans ideology. Women remind Mtfs of the women they will NEVER be and women remind ftMs of the females they will ALWAYS be. " - name begins with a D.

Yea.....just wow....wow..

I agree she is not a feminist, she's a transphobic bigot.

With a victim complex.  EVERYTHING is about women you guys, the WHOLE WORLD is against lesbians!!

Quote from: Shayne on March 30, 2011, 07:17:58 PM
" Women are the BIGGEST threat and affront to the trans concept/trans ideology. Women remind Mtfs of the women they will NEVER be and women remind ftMs of the females they will ALWAYS be. " - name begins with a D.

Yea.....just wow....wow..

I agree she is not a feminist, she's a transphobic bigot.

Yeah, and why isn't it that MEN remind trans men of the men they'll never be and remind trans women of the man they'll always be? (i don't think that at all; just making a point)

just lots of stupid

they hate themselves more than they could ever hate us.  this is there way of taking it out on the world.  i try not to take it personal.   :-\

Quote from: Chris73 on April 04, 2011, 10:22:50 AM
Yeah, and why isn't it that MEN remind trans men of the men they'll never be and remind trans women of the man they'll always be? (i don't think that at all; just making a point)

just lots of stupid

they hate themselves more than they could ever hate us.  this is there way of taking it out on the world.  i try not to take it personal.   :-\

that's just women for you. they are all into the drama and formalities. maybe not all of them, but alot of them seem to have that kind of side to them. anyway, i don't think it's just women that are the problem, i think it's pretty much everyone in some shape or form.

because some of them are radical and insane.

I want to go hat shopping now :)

Quote from: Princess Rachel on April 06, 2011, 11:09:42 AM
I want to go hat shopping now :)

*facepalm*

Because the only thing better than a great hat is a great purse and/or outfit to go with it  :laugh:

They don't. Feminist is a very broad term with as many branches and ideas. (political trigger warning)

Second Wave Radical Feminists or lesbian-feminists do for a few reasons off the top of my head:

1. Gender is a social construct by a patriarchal society. Gender is not innate.  So for people to want to "change gender" it means they often have very specific and strict rules about what gender and are therefor very sexist persons.  You can see this a lot with transsexual people.  Their view on transsexuals is often of late transitioning transsexuals who live successful lives as men but then decide to become characatures of feminine women.

2. The patriarchal society we live in means that men grow up with "male privilege."  This allows men to be assertive and bold while women are a second class citizens.  Men do not listen to the lower classes. When assertive privileged men destroy the lives of their families to transition and "assert" themselves as women into women's spaces with no real understanding of what life as a woman was like. It rubs them the wrong way.  Another example of men being misogynistic men.

3. They are often anti-submissive penis in vagina sex and do not believe that a reconstructed penis is a vagina, to them transsexuals are creating a "f**ckhole."  They believe men see women as "f-holes" and grs is merely creating one for yourself.  They are big on autogynephelia and liken transsexuality as body dysmorphic disorders like wanting a healthy leg cut off so you can be handicapped.  They think it's a mental disorder rather than something people are born with given the obsession with societal gender roles. 

4. They aren't big on body dysmorphic disorders caused by a patriarchal society.  Females are the primary victims of social norms that help subvert the confidence of young women.  They are big on confidence, on being yourself...no matter how you are born.  Most disappointments with oneself are caused by societal reactions (patriarchy) and they believe these should be wiped off the planet.

5. They do not believe it should be acceptable for one social class to decide that they want to be another social class.  It's blackface to them.  They imagine it exactly like a bunch of white men going under plastic surgery and chemicals to take on the physical appearance and mannerisms as black men.   This would not be looked on kindly by most blacks and it's the same with feminists/women.

6. Most of the their beef is with M2F Transsexuals but they are anti-F2M too who give up their womanhood and turn their back on women at great risk to their health, because they can't find political/social confidence with themselves as masculine women, and want to partake in male privilege instead of eradicating the patriarchy.

All the many problems I can see with all that rest on no.1 there, the convenient assumption that there's nothing innate about gender.

I've just been reading an interesting article on gender differentiation (I'll they and find a link to it) that states, amongst other things, that there's research evidence that biologocal gender differentiation is still fluid for some time after birth, and can be influenced by early childhood environment even down to a chromosome level - i.e. it's not all determined in the first couple of months in the womb. I'm going to look for more info on this.

Don't even get me started on our own Germaine Greer.   ::)

I won't wear the accusation that I can't be a woman because I have never suffered period pain, for one.

Apart from the fact that a lot of our cis-sisters are fortunate in this regard,  I would simply state that,"I think in my case 15 years chronic pain from a spinal injury is a pretty good substitute, that will last a lifetime and won't end at menopause."

Karen.

To me the flaw with the antitrans feminists agruments is this:
You demand that the patriarchy/men keep its laws and hands off your bodies....Why do you think you have the right to interfere with the choices I make for my body?
!

 Maybe because they are insecure in their own Self-identity, and need to attack anyone they perceive as being more secure.  And what could be more secure than carving out your own identity, rather than sticking with the one society has given you.  Especially when it sounds like you have been either unsuccessful at rejecting it, or are in denial that you are a puppet of society.
 
Perhaps they are suffering self-hatred due to what they see as their own limitations, and their inability to overcome them.  By becoming visibly women, transwomen remind them of themselves and all they reject.

That's my 20c worth, from a General Semantics viewpoint.   
Karen.

As a transwoman who lives with three self-identified feminists, all of whom devote a large amount of their time to feminist discourse, writing and research, I must take offense to this accusation.  Sure there are a couple feminists who publish some transphobic literature, but I find these couple instances to be a misrepresentation of what the modern feminist movement is all about.  Feminism is NOT (contrary to common misconception) just about women.  It is about the equality of all people with regards to sex, race, class, ability, sexual orientation or gender identity.  Every single feminist I have met, even the straight ones, have been extremely supportive of trans people and have accepted me with open arms.  I have never attended a feminist speaker who did not at least mention transphobia as a problem with our current society and I have seen multiple blog posts on feminist blogs specifically dealing with transphobia.  Saying that feminists hate transwomen is nothing more than a blatant generalization based on the VERY FEW instances in which feminist have written/said transphobic things.  Feminists are generally second only to Queer people in their acceptance of transwomen, so to so they hate them is absolutely false.

Quote from: Princess Rachel on April 06, 2011, 11:09:42 AM
I want to go hat shopping now :)

Yes.  The best defense against the many problems faced by humanity is to wear a fashionable hat.

I've been constantly startled by who(which woman) accepts me and and who doesn't. It's hard to pick who'll be cool and who won't. :-\

From what I have been reading it appears that feminist transphobia is most prevalent amongst some of those who were in the first wave of modern Feminism in the 1970's.  Writers such as Germaine Greer, who seem to resent having had to make way for a younger generation who have had the benefit of a more equal society.

Instead of changing with the environment they have kept the same world view, and therefore become a victim of their own philosophical limitations.  The world didn't quite turn out the way they wanted, so reality is wrong. In this case the medical evidence for differences in brain development, which is irrefutable.

Karen.

Quote from: justmeinoz on April 08, 2011, 09:05:31 AM
Don't even get me started on our own Germaine Greer.   ::)

here here!!
But seriously, I think a lot of the things in life that ''transwomen'' strive for,  feminists want to break free from, like ''burning a bra'' only joking, it has been a very liberating experience for me being a housewife, some feminists would look down on me as ''little down womanhood'' they wouldnd be seen dead at a kitchen sink, just my 2cents.
p

They never hat'ed me.. :) 

I actually had my picture put on their web site for 5 yrs ,, so i think its more a individual thang

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F310430_10150338778464504_612509503_7481032_1765319325_n.jpg&hash=7a97a92849cd4c8ab6626cc0b41a96b13ae5848b)

oh thats me when i was 5  :angel:

People who disapprove of us simply don't know us and don't know who we are. If they would get to know us as individuals then they'd see that we are real women/men.

Quote from: Dàwkbua on October 18, 2011, 08:03:58 PM
People who disapprove of us simply don't know us and don't know who we are. If they would get to know us as individuals then they'd see that we are real women/men.

Oh, no. The radical feminists actually STUDY us. The more radical branch of feminism has devoted a stack of academic papers that could give the Tower of Babel a run for its money just to try to explain why transwomen are nothing more than spies hell-bent on sabotaging feminism's influence for the patriarchy. When we assert that we are really women, we're just "invoking male privilege" to try to "force" ourselves into womanhood, something we have a "false sense of entitlement" to. When they bash us, they're really "doing a favor" to the feminist community by preventing "men" from invading "womens' space".

I am so injured by their claims, so genuinely insulted, so grievously offended, that I have actually come to HATE this kind of feminist. That said, I can easily distinguish one of these radicals from other feminists (who I have no beef with whatsoever), so my wits are about me. But still. HATE. RAGE. All that stuff.

Don't hate the haters.. it makes you just like them..

Quote from: Amazon D on October 21, 2011, 11:36:48 AM
Don't hate the haters.. it makes you just like them..

She's right, and yet my anger remains...it's quite a predicament. Maybe I can find solace in the fact that these feminists are on the outside fringe rather than a representative sample?

I think this is why writers like bell hooks say that we shouldnt call ourselves "feminists", because then anyone can speak for the so-called movement and bend it to their whim (or have their words used as en example of all feminist thought), rather we should say "I advocate feminism" as an ideology of equality.

There was a famous feminist in the 70's (forgive me for not remembering her name, I was born in the 80's and this is just what I've read) who wrote a diatribe about how transwomen were basically committing rape by appropriating the female form without having gone through female hardship.

And the most hurtful flak I've gotten as a transman has come from feminist friends. Some of them see what I'm doing as betrayal, and as a decision. To some of them it looks like I'm just caving to male superiority and trying to get ahead any way I can. That's not true. I'm just incorrectly gendered, and any political implications are just happenstance.

I still consider myself a feminist, whether other feminists accept me or not. Even if I am a man, I'm not going to stop recognizing the gender inequality that exists.

Lol they hat us all.

Hatting is sometimes necessary but hating rarely ever is. I'm sure a lot of people here, myself included, have experienced some level of hate from feminists (or even masculinists for that matter!). You be not alone, OP.

Quote from: Felix on October 29, 2011, 12:59:27 AM
There was a famous feminist in the 70's...

That's infamous.

The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male (1979) - Janice G. Raymond * Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0807762725) * WorldCat (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/4529467)

Quote from: Felix on October 29, 2011, 12:59:27 AM
There was a famous feminist in the 70's (forgive me for not remembering her name, I was born in the 80's and this is just what I've read) who wrote a diatribe about how transwomen were basically committing rape by appropriating the female form without having gone through female hardship.

They do have a point though. Cause a large group of transwoman were completely normal functioning men before transition (and even after I dare say).

Not going to be loved by saying this.

Quote from: Sibila on October 29, 2011, 04:48:33 PM
They do have a point though. Cause a large group of transwoman were completely normal functioning men before transition (and even after I dare say).

Not going to be loved by saying this.

The way it's described is just atrocious. Maybe if it were a little more mature, people would actually give it some thought -- no matter how stupid it actually is. I mean, really? Committing rape by transitioning from male to female? That is both a generalization and a stretch, not to mention an incredibly ridiculous thing to say... to be honest.

Quote from: Sibila on October 29, 2011, 04:48:33 PM
They do have a point though. Cause a large group of transwoman were completely normal functioning men before transition (and even after I dare say).

Not going to be loved by saying this.

Alright. I'll suspend the torrents of rage flowing through me for your claiming that this point is valid and hear you out instead. Exactly how is a transwoman committing rape by assuming a female form? What makes such a claim true? The absence of "female hardship" (whatever the hell THAT means)?

Quote from: Sibila on October 29, 2011, 04:48:33 PM
They do have a point though. Cause a large group of transwoman were completely normal functioning men before transition (and even after I dare say).

Not going to be loved by saying this.

Well if we were normal and functioning as men then why didn't we stay there? I know i couldn't keep playing a part that i actually couldn't play very well at all. It seems to me your giving us a benifit we never experienced. I always wished i could be like many other men but as much as i tried, i failed miserably. However, i will give you one and that is i didn't feel like many females who wanted to be with men intimately. So even as a runaway teen (with my long blonde hair and smooth hairless face) (in early 70's) living in southern humboldt county Calif on a commune called HOKAHEY (a gay / lesbian commune) i had my first sexual experience with a lesbian woman named Mary who treated me as a  female / girl  and didn't force me to use that part between my legs. So goes my manly life humph  ::) Oh yea that was after i had ran away from home because i was put away in haverford state mental hospital for wearing womens clothes (which were my older sisters hand me downs) and i dare not go back to jr high for fear of retribution. Oh there in haverford i met my neighbor who was there for being gay. He did like men. That was the late 60's. It took a while (2 decades) until GID clinics accepted those of us who didn't like men and allowed us to transition. yea what a real functioning life i had. So today i take care of my 88 yr old mother because she was the only one who accepted me and that was because she was a bio-chemist and knew that when she took a hormone to prevent miscarrying me that it altered me inutero because she just lost twin hermaphrodite babies the year before i was born in the 50's. Oh the catholic doctor told her they died at birth and she was lucky but she actually thought he snuffed them out because the doctor didn't know what box (male or female) to put them in back in the mid 50's. Yes you know all the background of so many of us later transitioners. Yepper we all had normal functioning male lives..   ::)

Sibila has to be trolling.

And thanks Renate, that's exactly who I was thinking of.

Amazon, this drug http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol) has been linked to trans situations in both animals and people. I assume that's the one you're referring to. I wish there was more good research on these kinds of fetal influences, so people would finally stop saying this is a lifestyle choice.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on March 29, 2011, 07:27:21 PM
there is one feminist that definately does hate transwomen, and she's been mentioned here before "she's stolen ftm pics on here and talks about how it's a mistake for them to be transitioning. i think it comes from their idea of "female superiority," and thinking that transwomen are not "real women," but just men who are trying to be women, and disgrace their name. it's weird though. feminists seem to be masculine in their behaviour, by trying to prove they are men's equals. lots of them are what you call "butch lesbians," and they identify as female, yet act very masculine in behaviour. they think men are the enemy for the most part, so they take a transwoman as a disgrace to womanhood.

I just read some of her stuff and now I want to throw something at her. She takes pictures from here?

She has in the past.
But mainly she mines youtube for FTM transition videos.
But note that she only chooses the boi's that are the most innately fem. She has never shown some of the butch guys videos, that would discredit her paradim that only females who are trying to escape hyper femininity transition into men. According to her no true butches ever transition.

(yes I read Ms Bakers blogg, to keep an eye on her)

Lol. I watched her videos on youtube and made some not so nice comments. Good thing I don't upload videos.

Quote from: The Passage on October 29, 2011, 04:57:39 PM
The way it's described is just atrocious. Maybe if it were a little more mature, people would actually give it some thought -- no matter how stupid it actually is. I mean, really? Committing rape by transitioning from male to female? That is both a generalization and a stretch, not to mention an incredibly ridiculous thing to say... to be honest.

Well I did not use those words.
But honestly...I DO believe a lot of transwoman that are like "men becoming woman" instead of "woman becoming themselves" screw up the standards of care and understanding of the problems of transwoman in general. I am not trolling.

I have heard many woman say feel and think the same way about transwoman. As a matter of fact... there have been quite a few times that people confided in me that they met this other transwoman and because of her behavior and way of thinking they just were not able to see them as woman.
Mind you, this had NOTHING to do with looks... as a matter of fact one of those woman is blind! She said her energy just felt masculine in every way.

The trauma of being born in the wrong body is overshadowed by those transwoman who had normal functioning lives as males and at the same time claim they were better able to act like a men and adjust, while their creativity has always been limited to football and cars (and even talking bad about woman with their mates).

Quote from: Amazon D on October 29, 2011, 05:57:18 PM
Well if we were normal and functioning as men then why didn't we stay there? I know i couldn't keep playing a part that i actually couldn't play very well at all. It seems to me your giving us a benifit we never experienced. I always wished i could be like many other men but as much as i tried, i failed miserably. However, i will give you one and that is i didn't feel like many females who wanted to be with men intimately. So even as a runaway teen (with my long blonde hair and smooth hairless face) (in early 70's) living in southern humboldt county Calif on a commune called HOKAHEY (a gay / lesbian commune) i had my first sexual experience with a lesbian woman named Mary who treated me as a  female / girl  and didn't force me to use that part between my legs. So goes my manly life humph  ::) Oh yea that was after i had ran away from home because i was put away in haverford state mental hospital for wearing womens clothes (which were my older sisters hand me downs) and i dare not go back to jr high for fear of retribution. Oh there in haverford i met my neighbor who was there for being gay. He did like men. That was the late 60's. It took a while (2 decades) until GID clinics accepted those of us who didn't like men and allowed us to transition. yea what a real functioning life i had. So today i take care of my 88 yr old mother because she was the only one who accepted me and that was because she was a bio-chemist and knew that when she took a hormone to prevent miscarrying me that it altered me inutero because she just lost twin hermaphrodite babies the year before i was born in the 50's. Oh the catholic doctor told her they died at birth and she was lucky but she actually thought he snuffed them out because the doctor didn't know what box (male or female) to put them in back in the mid 50's. Yes you know all the background of so many of us later transitioners. Yepper we all had normal functioning male lives..   ::)

Hi I did not say all of them are that way. There are transwoman that are only into men who were and are normal GAY males. Sexual preference has little to do with this.
In my opinion the vast majority of transwoman are more like "men becoming woman" as opposed to "woman becoming themselves".

I only met a few transwoman that were really feminine from the inside out the moment they were born.

Janice Raymond, Germaine Greer and Julie Bindel all have major issues and really aren't worth getting wound up about. Apart from anything else they all are discredited now for their extremist views. Bindel in particular was torn apart intellectually when she wrote hate articles in the Guardian which permitted commenting on her articles. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/mytransmission (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/mytransmission)  http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/2298 (http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/2298)  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/01/julie-bindel-transphobia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/01/julie-bindel-transphobia)

In real life I've only ever accounted one transphobic feminist who was my my English teacher at a further education college in London. She also happened to a Lesbian and a Zionist and had it in for me on various levels although who cares, she's out of my life and anyway she had a nervous breakdown during the course and went on sick leave due to the contestation she got from a few of us regarding her ridiculous prejudices.

Quote from: mimpi on October 31, 2011, 06:44:56 AM
Janice Raymond, Germaine Greer and Julie Bindel all have major issues and really aren't worth getting wound up about. Apart from anything else they all are discredited now for their extremist views. Bindel in particular was torn apart intellectually when she wrote hate articles in the Guardian which permitted commenting on her articles. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/mytransmission (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/mytransmission)  http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/2298 (http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/2298)  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/01/julie-bindel-transphobia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/01/julie-bindel-transphobia)

In real life I've only ever accounted one transphobic feminist who was my my English teacher at a further education college in London. She also happened to a Lesbian and a Zionist and had it in for me on various levels although who cares, she's out of my life and anyway she had a nervous breakdown during the course and went on sick leave due to the contestation she got from a few of us regarding her ridiculous prejudices.

The problem is that a lot of those woman project their own gender issues on transwoman. Unfortunately for a lot of people it's very hard to self reflect. What are my own motivations for judging people. A lot of them never get to that point. Perhaps because they lack the emotional intelligence to do so.

On the other hand, personally I think it's not right to put your head in the sand and accept being lied to by transwoman who grap every opportunity to lie about their past and themselves. Self reflection is lacking here too.  On both sides.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on October 29, 2011, 05:27:28 PM
Alright. I'll suspend the torrents of rage flowing through me for your claiming that this point is valid and hear you out instead. Exactly how is a transwoman committing rape by assuming a female form? What makes such a claim true? The absence of "female hardship" (whatever the hell THAT means)?

A lot of transwoman lack female sensitivity... as do their haters.

Quote from: mimpi on October 31, 2011, 06:44:56 AM
Janice Raymond, Germaine Greer and Julie Bindel all have major issues and really aren't worth getting wound up about. Apart from anything else they all are discredited now for their extremist views. Bindel in particular was torn apart intellectually when she wrote hate articles in the Guardian which permitted commenting on her articles. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/mytransmission (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/mytransmission)  http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/2298 (http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/2298)  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/01/julie-bindel-transphobia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/01/julie-bindel-transphobia)

In real life I've only ever accounted one transphobic feminist who was my my English teacher at a further education college in London. She also happened to a Lesbian and a Zionist and had it in for me on various levels although who cares, she's out of my life and anyway she had a nervous breakdown during the course and went on sick leave due to the contestation she got from a few of us regarding her ridiculous prejudices.

What is really idiotic about that article of Julie Bindal is that she claims transsexuals are gay men who dislike being gay while the majority of transwoman is lesbian. She could have delved deeper into this subject which would have given her point more credit.
Its true that in iran gay people are forced into becoming a woman. But this does not explain transgenders in countries that lack all such pressure, and where being gay is more accepted then being trans.

Stupid.

AND about the female hardship.
Transwoman who were feminine from the day they were born and even after transition go through a lot more female hardship then most woman do.

But woman who would have rather been men, will never understand that.
Those woman do not speak for feminine woman too... they will see their desire to have a traditional life as a product of the pressure of sociaty. But that is not true. That is THEIR fight. It's not the fight of the woman who want to be able to be FEMININE and FREE....to enjoy their femininity and live the lives they want for themselves.

I have several cute hats  ;D  If feminists don't like it, to bad

Quote from: Sibila on October 31, 2011, 06:35:33 AM
I only met a few transwoman that were really feminine from the inside out the moment they were born.

So what is your definition of that type of person?

Quote from: Amazon D on October 31, 2011, 07:48:13 AM
So what is your definition of that type of person?

i have no definition...but i do see them as being different from most other transwoman.

Quote from: Sibila on October 31, 2011, 07:58:15 AM
i have no definition...but i do see them as being different from most other transwoman.

I think you have a stereotypical idea of a woman. You should go stand outside the michigan womyns music festival to see the many extremes and variations of women/womyn.

Also this "Julie"or should i say "jules" likes to talk so much about the importance of gender equality while at the same time stressing the importance of" woman only" services. Apparently woman have the right to have male jobs but not vice versa.

Dumb people always seem to need to find an audiance for their stupidities...

Quote from: Amazon D on October 31, 2011, 08:05:10 AM
I think you have a stereotypical idea of a woman. You should go stand outside the michigan womyns music festival to see the many extremes and variations of women/womyn.

that is not the point. What strikes me as extremely odd is that most transwoman only find out they are woman when 8 years old and older...while genderidentity is set much earlier in life.
And that the majority is masculine as opposed to the female population where the majority is feminine.

With all the respect for those transwoman i am sure science will back me up one day on this one

what irritates me is that the standards of care are designed for that masculine majority...while traumatised body dysmorfic and socially damaged transgirl will have a hard time finding true understanding on what they are going through...by sociaty at large...by their own population and by healthcare

Why is it that anyone who isn't 100% feminine must by definition be a man? Do most of us have a few masculine traits? I don't know, maybe. But look at a random sample of GGs and you will find plenty who have a few masculine traits. This characterization of the majority of transexuals as men whose "creativity has always been limited to football and cars (and even talking bad about woman with their mates)" is simply untrue.

Quote from: Dàwkbua on October 31, 2011, 08:52:45 AM
Why is it that anyone who isn't 100% feminine must by definition be a man? Do most of us have a few masculine traits? I don't know, maybe. But look at a random sample of GGs and you will find plenty who have a few masculine traits. This characterization of the majority of transexuals as men whose "creativity has always been limited to football and cars (and even talking bad about woman with their mates)" is simply untrue.

its not about being masculine or feminine...its about that it is psychologically impossible to live life as a normal man when you already a 3 4 years of age know that you are a woman...

And the masculine trannies btw are more then able to stand up for what they think they are

So are you saying that anyone who didn't assert herself at the age of 3 as female isn't a real woman?

I didn't know until I was 11 or 12 that I wanted to be physiologically female. I have a few masculine traits myself and if you met me you would probably pick up on that in my "energy" whatever that means. Do you think me a man? See, you can't always tell about people.

I'm getting the idea after having had the experience of some tgs around here and their attitudes, that feminists be even more offended then some or most post-op MtFs by their positions and even grossness.

If I had some of these folks prancing about my perimeter I be not OK, to say the least for sure. So, these 'forward' individuals act probably the same in public and will invariably thereby cause offence. And that's real bad for the rest of us.

Feminists more tuned to the 'art' of fighting back then your average gg, that would just turn away, and avoid confrontation - they [feminists] are made mostly of different timber and so show there dislike or disgust. They'd say "seen one... seen them all" I'm pretty sure.

What goes here on these pages will NOT and by no means go in the real/outside world without some negative, to major negative reactions.
Now all the nice and calming or ever so righteous words about -all being equal- will not really wash out there in the end.

That's my view on the subject and as always of course VMMY,
Axelle

Quote from: Sibila on October 31, 2011, 08:11:58 AM
that is not the point. What strikes me as extremely odd is that most transwoman only find out they are woman when 8 years old and older...while genderidentity is set much earlier in life.
And that the majority is masculine as opposed to the female population where the majority is feminine.

With all the respect for those transwoman i am sure science will back me up one day on this one

How do you know that 8 yrs old is the time they realize it? I was taking baths with my 3 sisters then my mom took me out and said i had to bathe seperately and i was barely able to think but i knew i was like my sisters.. Your really judgemental of things you know nothing personally about all these other sisters

[Quote from: Sibila on Today at 09:11:58 am]
that is not the point. What strikes me as extremely odd is that most transwoman only find out they are woman when 8 years old and older...while genderidentity is set much earlier in life.
And that the majority is masculine as opposed to the female population where the majority is feminine.

With all the respect for those transwoman i am sure science will back me up one day on this one
[/quote]

Now, - I'm actually one of those 8 year old folks you been looking at too.
I lived with females only up toage 6 - 7 and NOBODY ever was seen naked a such.
Now even if it was not so, there are no gender notions as such -regards genitals- this early in live, only social boy/girl differentiations.
I think THAT is more the norm - in my thinking. Nothing sexual, more curiousity and some learning.

By the time of age 8 things start to stir inside (pre-puberty?) and in my case it THEN said I want to be like THEM (a girl) and tried to cut of my extra, be a girl have earrings, pretty cloth and be a girl - like socially I always wanted to be with them, like them, play their games, do their thing but was barred.

In the early 50s there were no child-psychologists, if you were dyslexic you were just stupid, if you want to be a girl you'd get beaten for just saying so. NO GO, AT ALL!
At age 14 -15 you'd be send to a psychiatric hospital and given electro-shock to 'see you right'.

So we learn the tricks of the male trade best we can --- until some day the house of cards falls down...

About as short as I could make it for you,
Axelle

I didnt figure it out until I was 9 and I had to have Donahue put it in my face with a show on transwomen.

My parents asumed I was going to be gay by the time I was 5, I was so femminine. (wow did they ever peg that one wrong...lol) They raised me in a loving environment to believe I could do and be anything I wanted.
I was never held to a gender straight jacket until I started to aproach puberty.

There may be reasons why some of us were late to the table.

Sibila I didn't come out of the closet as male until last year. I experienced every type of confusion and self-deception you can imagine. I proclaimed myself male at a very young age, and was steered towards just being a tomboy. Stuff happens, okay?

I still think you're trolling.

Btw, I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make, but I should also emphasize that I'm pretty feminine and silly, and that makes me no less a man. People come in all flavors. Chill out. You aren't omniscient.

Quote from: Sibila on October 31, 2011, 07:03:22 AM
A lot of transwoman lack female sensitivity... as do their haters.

I believe you're referring to empathy (often colloquially associated with "womens' intution")? It's already been determined that men and women are not significantly different in terms of empathetic ability. So female sensitivity doesn't exist.

Quote from: Felix on October 31, 2011, 08:30:46 PM
Sibila I didn't come out of the closet as male until last year. I experienced every type of confusion and self-deception you can imagine. I proclaimed myself male at a very young age, and was steered towards just being a tomboy. Stuff happens, okay?

I still think you're trolling.

Btw, I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make, but I should also emphasize that I'm pretty feminine and silly, and that makes me no less a man. People come in all flavors. Chill out. You aren't omniscient.

This is also what I meant to say. The transgendered come in all flavers and forms. And when it comes to treatment, there is no one size fits all.
But I do think some feminists DO have a point when they say that SOME trannies do not nor will they ever in this life face female hardship.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 01, 2011, 11:36:21 AM
I believe you're referring to empathy (often colloquially associated with "womens' intution")? It's already been determined that men and women are not significantly different in terms of empathetic ability. So female sensitivity doesn't exist.

No I meant sensitivity and female insecurity. Like having doubts. And like continually having a hard time dealing with a body that you cannot really call your own psychologically and emotionally.

Having gone through a large part of my life as an extremely effiminate 'straight' guy I have eaten allot of crap.

Life was NOT easy looking like a guy and vibing female.

Can't count how many times just being natural got my ass kicked.

Quote from: cynthialee on November 01, 2011, 06:42:14 PM
Life was NOT easy looking like a guy and vibing female.

Can't count how many times just being natural got my ass kicked.

Likewise my experience!

Z

Quote from: Sibila on November 01, 2011, 05:12:41 PM
No I meant sensitivity and female insecurity. Like having doubts. And like continually having a hard time dealing with a body that you cannot really call your own psychologically and emotionally.

Let's be a little more specific here. What is this female sensitivity that a lot of transwomen lack? I do not understand what you're talking about? A physical sexual response? Emotional connectivity? Fear of judgment for being outgoing? Fear of failure? What is it that we lack that makes the statement that we're not really women or that we're raping the female form a valid argument?

You may not have been arguing these points, but you said that the feminist had a point, and she WAS arguing these points.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 01, 2011, 11:38:10 PM
Let's be a little more specific here. What is this female sensitivity that a lot of transwomen lack? I do not understand what you're talking about? A physical sexual response? Emotional connectivity? Fear of judgment for being outgoing? Fear of failure? What is it that we lack that makes the statement that we're not really women or that we're raping the female form a valid argument?

You may not have been arguing these points, but you said that the feminist had a point, and she WAS arguing these points.

a lot of transwoman start transition with perfectly healthy functional male ego's...which is why i do not believe them

Quote from: Sibila on November 02, 2011, 07:09:36 AM
a lot of transwoman start transition with perfectly healthy functional male ego's...which is why i do not believe them

It is not your place to believe or disbeileve.
You are supposeed to be here to give and recieve support.
NOT decide who has a male ego and who is really a woman.

Well Cynthialee, who can say you wrong saying just so...

Yes, maybe we aught to believe into helping one another rather then discrediting one another.

Not always easy in some situations - but there we are :-)

Lastly, there are PLENTY ggs that would not fit certain female moulds, plenty!
Now who's to say THEY are not "real' - hello?!

Axelle

I never ever received any help or understanding from them...
They used to call ME male for doubting about the surgery...
And with their lies and behavior they increase prejudice and lack of understanding for transwoman

Quote from: cynthialee on November 02, 2011, 08:20:51 AM
It is not your place to believe or disbeileve.
You are supposeed to be here to give and recieve support.
NOT decide who has a male ego and who is really a woman.

Then who`s place is it ??

Quote from: Sibila on November 02, 2011, 10:27:29 AM
Then who`s place is it ??

No ones.

To the OP I would ask why does anyone hate transwomen, or transmen or gays or lesbians or anyone for that matter?

Usually, the reason is borne out of ignorance.

if Sibila goes around referring to TS as masculine trannies/trannies then there will be no respect flowing Sibila's way

Quote from: Sibila on November 02, 2011, 07:09:36 AM
a lot of transwoman start transition with perfectly healthy functional male ego's...which is why i do not believe them

Okay...you dodged the question (intentionally or not). I asked you what specifically defines female sensitivity. I'd like some specific criteria by which to decide whether something fits the definition "female sensitivity". But you've generated a new question, while I'm at it: what defines an ego as male? If we're going to try to categorize egos by sex, we're going to need some kind of measuring stick are we not?

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 02, 2011, 08:17:05 PM
Okay...you dodged the question (intentionally or not). I asked you what specifically defines female sensitivity. I'd like some specific criteria by which to decide whether something fits the definition "female sensitivity". But you've generated a new question, while I'm at it: what defines an ego as male? If we're going to try to categorize egos by sex, we're going to need some kind of measuring stick are we not?

If a Tgirl did not feel any entrapment socially and physically and psychologically I would think her EGO leans towards masculinity.

Quote from: lilacwoman on November 02, 2011, 06:31:29 PM
if Sibila goes around referring to TS as masculine trannies/trannies then there will be no respect flowing Sibila's way

If its the word trannie that you think is offensive then wake up!
You are NOT a gg!
Not in the flesh at least.

If you are denying that you deny the hardship and problems us girls go through.
It is BTW OFTEN the masculine Tgirls who think they can BECOME woman.

Which proves my point and the point of the T-haters.

So a poor choice of semantics makes the differance between TS girls who are women and TS who are just men with a bad idea?

oh dear poor Sibila had a nasty girlhood.
turn the clock back and you have my boyhood and I'll do the cooking and cleaning and playing with Barbie dolls.   er no I'll skip the Barbies as that's a marker of future homosexuality.

As we don't know anything about Sibila except her lesbian name we have to assume she's an acolyte of the sad Janice Raymond with the same irrational delusions about the reality of transsexualism.

Quote from: Sibila on November 03, 2011, 09:46:24 AM
If a Tgirl did not feel any entrapment socially and physically and psychologically I would think her EGO leans towards masculinity.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Specificity is the heart of an argument. A sense of entrapment, be it physical, psychological, or social, is something that I understood to be one of the criteria for categorizing an individual as transsexual to begin with. That's why it's gender dysphoria, because you have a sense of dysphoria.

But I wonder: is your argument that men do not feel socially or psychologically trapped? True, men are allowed to do many things that women aren't, but they're also constrained from doing many things that women are allowed to. Men are (at least by Western standards) generally not allowed to express most of their negative emotions. Anger is about the only one they're allowed to flow freely. If they express sadness or fear, they're labeled weak. They are also expected to enjoy competition and are constantly engaged in a hierarchical struggle for being the alpha dog.

This doesn't leave people feeling trapped? They may not admit it, but many men DO dislike the standards that they're held to. It's exhausting to hold your emotions in and to constantly try to be the A-1 King of the Hill with absolutely no weaknesses. So much so that this sort of gender role has been shown to diminish life expectancy!

Might be something about being born male.

As for me, I am a total feminista... I like to get my nails done and have guys googling my name with no shame.

Quote from: cynthialee on November 03, 2011, 10:27:59 AM
So a poor choice of semantics makes the differance between TS girls who are women and TS who are just men with a bad idea?

no thats your quote...
I just said there is a significant difference

Quote from: Sibila on November 03, 2011, 09:47:28 AM
If its the word trannie that you think is offensive then wake up!
You are NOT a gg!
Not in the flesh at least.

If you are denying that you deny the hardship and problems us girls go through.
It is BTW OFTEN the masculine Tgirls who think they can BECOME woman.

1.  Being offended by a derogatory term does not mean that one should wake up.  It only means that such a person is hurt by that word.  If you know it hurts some people and use it anyway, doesn't it logically follow that you intend to hurt those people?
2.  Was there a trans woman who claimed to be a gg?
3.  Everyone has hardships and problems.  Seriously.  Every single person on this Earth.
4.  I neither know where you got your "fact" about the majority of what you consider "masculine Tgirls" nor what it is supposed to mean.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 03, 2011, 02:31:21 PM
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Specificity is the heart of an argument. A sense of entrapment, be it physical, psychological, or social, is something that I understood to be one of the criteria for categorizing an individual as transsexual to begin with. That's why it's gender dysphoria, because you have a sense of dysphoria.

But I wonder: is your argument that men do not feel socially or psychologically trapped? True, men are allowed to do many things that women aren't, but they're also constrained from doing many things that women are allowed to. Men are (at least by Western standards) generally not allowed to express most of their negative emotions. Anger is about the only one they're allowed to flow freely. If they express sadness or fear, they're labeled weak. They are also expected to enjoy competition and are constantly engaged in a hierarchical struggle for being the alpha dog.

This doesn't leave people feeling trapped? They may not admit it, but many men DO dislike the standards that they're held to. It's exhausting to hold your emotions in and to constantly try to be the A-1 King of the Hill with absolutely no weaknesses. So much so that this sort of gender role has been shown to diminish life expectancy!

No I dont mean that men are sociallt trapped when they are MEN. Its true entrapment works both ways. But you are talking about the wrongs of sociaty here... not genderdysforia.
In my opinion if you are born in a male body as a girl you will have very little to no benifit from being male.
BUT there are transwoman that DID have that benifit. BECAUSE they could develop a healthy ego. On a masculine ground and not on a femine one.

Sibila, are you just bitter, or maybe going through something? You're acting mean and making a lot of generalizations. We don't come here to defend who we are, do we? I feel like some of the transwomen are being put on trial, and I don't see how that serves any decent purpose. Am I making too many assumptions?

Sibila just does not understand the basic idea of TSism. or all the research and evidence of the last 50/60/70 years.

Quote from: cynthialee on November 01, 2011, 06:42:14 PM
Having gone through a large part of my life as an extremely effiminate 'straight' guy I have eaten allot of crap.

Life was NOT easy looking like a guy and vibing female.

Can't count how many times just being natural got my ass kicked.

I was ->-bleeped-<- bashed and harassed as a guy. I was too gay to walk around.

Quote from: Felix on November 03, 2011, 10:23:16 PM
Sibila, are you just bitter, or maybe going through something? You're acting mean and making a lot of generalizations. We don't come here to defend who we are, do we? I feel like some of the transwomen are being put on trial, and I don't see how that serves any decent purpose. Am I making too many assumptions?

its true that i feel extremely let down by the community at large and am very dissapointed in transwoman...
I rather hang out with straight and gay people...
Straight girls never have any trouble understanding my feelings...transwoman always have problems understanding me....

Well, hatters gonna hat.

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 01:46:03 PM
Well, hatters gonna hat.

I thought Hatters got mad?

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 01:46:03 PM
Well, hatters gonna hat.

:laugh:

hat's all folks!  ;)

Z

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/mad-as-a-hatter.html (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/mad-as-a-hatter.html)

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on November 04, 2011, 01:57:50 PM
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/mad-as-a-hatter.html (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/mad-as-a-hatter.html)

Yah. Don't much about entymology.

you guys just cannot stand the truth... wonder if you even know yourselves deeply enough to say the things you do...

I'm thinking 'guys' is offensive and Sibila needs banishing back to lesbianland.

Quote from: lilacwoman on November 04, 2011, 03:38:12 PM
I'm thinking 'guys' is offensive and Sibila needs banishing back to lesbianland.

Jezus! No wonder people keep thinking transwoman aren't woman!!!
Its because of people like you!!!

"I am being discriminated... someone called me guy!"

While I didn't
Even girls say GUYS to eachother...

You need to grow up!

BTW I am STRAIGHT and TS

I figure everyone knows themselves deeper than any other person knows them.

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2011, 03:35:47 PM
you guys just cannot stand the truth... wonder if you even know yourselves deeply enough to say the things you do...

What is this truth that I, as part of the populace that you're addressing at large, can not stand?  What are these things that I say which imply a lack of understanding of my self?

The point is that a lot of you just dont WANT or cannot AFFORD to understand me.

That is no fair discussion. And you will NEVER win from the lesbian feminist ->-bleeped-<- haters...when you are inable to self reflect and while being this dishonest to yourselves AND them...and at the same time so politically correct it becomes intolerent.

people arent THAT stupid to keep buying into all your fake stories about how you supressed your female selves whil you were happy males

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2011, 03:59:19 PM
The point is that a lot of you just dont WANT or cannot AFFORD to understand me.

That is no fair discussion. And you will NEVER win from the lesbian feminist ->-bleeped-<- haters...when you are inable to self reflect and while being this dishonest to yourselves AND them...and at the same time so politically correct it becomes intolerent.

people arent THAT stupid to keep buying into all your fake stories about how you supressed your female selves whil you were happy males

I was a very happy male before. Let's no mince words here, most of lived lives as males and we enjoyed it. There was maybe some dissatisfaction... But none of us have the experience to females. I don't think I can even compare having male priviledge(albeit femmie gay male) to what females go through starting at birth.

People will never win from haters, so they shouldn't even try. Why do you think I keep telling everyone on this board to be GROUNDED IN REALITY in their transitions? You don't want to make things worst because chances are you're already understood. Much less by the feminist elite...

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2011, 03:59:19 PM
The point is that a lot of you just dont WANT or cannot AFFORD to understand me.

I'm pretty sure most people don't understand you because you use poor grammar and logic.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 04:06:48 PM
I was a very happy male before. Let's no mince words here, most of lived lives as males and we enjoyed it.

Finally someone who admits this! Thank you.

I was extremely unhappy before transition, and extremely traumatised because of this condition.
There are more... I am NOT the only one.

I am just stating that apparently there is a difference between these groups... BUT am called a troll for doing so.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on November 04, 2011, 04:08:51 PM
I'm pretty sure most people don't understand you because you use poor grammar and logic.

Bleh. Who cares.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on November 04, 2011, 04:08:51 PM
I'm pretty sure most people don't understand you because you use poor grammar and logic.

I am sure I express myself better in YOUR language then you will in my motherlanguage.

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2011, 04:10:11 PM
Finally someone who admits this! Thank you.

I was extremely unhappy before transition, and extremely traumatised because of this condition.
There are more... I am NOT the only one.

I am just stating that apparently there is a difference between these groups... BUT am called a troll for doing so.

I think the worst thing transpeople can do to themselves is lie to themselves during and after transition.

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2011, 04:11:05 PM
I am sure I express myself better in YOUR language then you will in my motherlanguage.

Oh, is this my language now?  Et les Américains bête sont tous monolingue, n'est pas?

Ah, et votre logique n'est linguistique pas.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on November 04, 2011, 04:31:45 PM
Oh, is this my language now?  Et les Américains bête sont tous monolingue, n'est pas?

Frenchies?

I want to address the use of the word "guys" when speaking to transwomen. It's not something I would have thought of as offensive, and I've probably even done it on this forum somewhere. But I don't mind changing my language if it hurts somebody. It's no big deal. It's just like if someone calls me a "bitch" well I don't care if you call males that too, it's still too touchy to use with me and most FTM's. So I'll try not to use the word "guys" so freely.

If someone is hurt or offended by a word or phrase, that's not "political correctness," and they shouldn't have to prove that they have a good reason for being hurt or offended. If a word makes someone feel bad, why use that word?

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 04:51:19 PM
I want to address the use of the word "guys" when speaking to transwomen. It's not something I would have thought of as offensive, and I've probably even done it on this forum somewhere. But I don't mind changing my language if it hurts somebody. It's no big deal. It's just like if someone calls me a "bitch" well I don't care if you call males that too, it's still too touchy to use with me and most FTM's. So I'll try not to use the word "guys" so freely.

If someone is hurt or offended by a word or phrase, that's not "political correctness," and they shouldn't have to prove that they have a good reason for being hurt or offended. If a word makes someone feel bad, why use that word?

I did not use that word intentionally. It was her that accused me of using it intentionally and asked for someone to ban me!

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 04:33:40 PM
Frenchies?

*raises hand high* HERE HERE!!! je parle francais!!!  :DDDDDD

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 04:51:19 PM
I want to address the use of the word "guys" when speaking to transwomen. It's not something I would have thought of as offensive, and I've probably even done it on this forum somewhere. But I don't mind changing my language if it hurts somebody. It's no big deal. It's just like if someone calls me a "bitch" well I don't care if you call males that too, it's still too touchy to use with me and most FTM's. So I'll try not to use the word "guys" so freely.

If someone is hurt or offended by a word or phrase, that's not "political correctness," and they shouldn't have to prove that they have a good reason for being hurt or offended. If a word makes someone feel bad, why use that word?

i agree... i've done it before by accident i guess
i mean i make a conscious effort to try adress members of the trans community by their desired pronouns, but everybody slips up sometimes, i mean come on now we're only human  :P and we cant read peoples minds or nothing, but if someone says they are uncomfortable w/it, it is good to respect that and adress them as what they prefer   

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2011, 03:59:19 PM
The point is that a lot of you just dont WANT or cannot AFFORD to understand me.

That is no fair discussion. And you will NEVER win from the lesbian feminist ->-bleeped-<- haters...when you are inable to self reflect and while being this dishonest to yourselves AND them...and at the same time so politically correct it becomes intolerent.

people arent THAT stupid to keep buying into all your fake stories about how you supressed your female selves whil you were happy males

Many of us spent lifetimes desperatly fighting the need to transition tooth and nail.

I would not call balled up in the fetal possition howling in gender fueled angst, living the life of a happy male.
There are a number of women I know who transitioned late in life who can honestly say they have been there more times than they can possibly count.
We tried desperatly to be the 'men' society told us we were supposed to be. We did it out of a sence family honor and obligation. We sacrificed our souls to keep others happy instead of tending to our own needs, and I would call that a pretty stereotypic female thing to do.

Just because others life story is differant than yours does not give you the right to make asumptions about others or to bag on them.

Quote from: Sibila on November 03, 2011, 07:12:16 PM
No I dont mean that men are sociallt trapped when they are MEN. Its true entrapment works both ways. But you are talking about the wrongs of sociaty here... not genderdysforia.
In my opinion if you are born in a male body as a girl you will have very little to no benifit from being male.
BUT there are transwoman that DID have that benifit. BECAUSE they could develop a healthy ego. On a masculine ground and not on a femine one.

I'm trying hard here, I really am. But I just don't understand. I thought that transwomen, by the very definition of the term, were women born in male bodies. As in, MtF transsexuals. Surgical modification and hormone therapy are not additional requirements to qualify as a transwoman, only a state of gender dysphoria which genuinely fits the criteria described in the DSM.

You seem to be talking about people who transition without gender dysphoria. I've heard of this kind of thing happening to people with personality disorders (schizophrenia in particular), but never mentally healthy, male-identifying people (which seem to be the people you're assigning the title "transwoman with a male ego"). Can you post a link to some literature regarding these sorts of people? I won't be immediately picky about what journal or government study you give, just something scientific.

I hope you're not moving in the direction of citing  ->-bleeped-<-, by the way. That particular paraphilia is scientifically questionable at the moment.

First let me start with I think the ->-bleeped-<- theory has as many holes in it as swiss cheese.

However...
Just because something is questionable does not imediatly indicate that all debate on the topic should automaticaly be dismissed.

**damn that one was hard to swallow**

Well, the idea wasn't to silence debate on ->-bleeped-<-. I was merely indicating skepticism, and in a manner such that I didn't seem merely to be a baseless contrarian.

Quote from: emostache69 on November 04, 2011, 08:25:07 PM
*raises hand high* HERE HERE!!! je parle francais!!!  :DDDDDD

Je ne parle pas Francais... :'(

Quote from: GinaDouglas on March 30, 2011, 02:19:59 PM
I understand it.  Feminists want to transcend gender and we're retrograde.  They want to move towards a gender-blind future, and we make gender pre-eminent.  They want to free women from what they call patriarchal-expectations about dress and behavior.  Here we go, men in their view, embracing and celebrating patriarchal-expectations of femininity.

It's been a big issue between me and the local Pride Center.  They don't want to acknowledge the differences between gay men and lesbians, whereas, if there were not significant differences between men and women, there wouldn't be much reason for anyone to change gender.  So we are philosophically opposed to each other.

Kia Ora Gina,

"Why Do Many Feminists Hate Transwomen ?"

::) Simply out of F.E.A.R  =Force Evidence Appearing Real...What else could it be ?

Metta Zenda :)

OMG Sibila!!

You took the words right out of my mouth!

I turned out to be very feminine right after the placenta came after me and that's exactly why I just couldn't build a life as a 'man'. Way to feminine and totally impossible to hide  that anyhow. And psychologically totally impossible to build a life as a man too.

I too noticed a long time ago that a lot of TS's were and are very masculine, radiating masculine energy, dominance, ambition etcetc waaaaaay stronger than any GG can ever do.

I only met a very few TS's who were and are feminine 'from the inside out'.

I also see (masculine) men becoming women instead of fysically and mentally becoming the women they were/are.

And yes, I  too thought the same after reading Janice Raymonds 'The Transsexual Empire'.......crappy, but she DOES have a point.

Here in Holland the editor of the biggest feminist magazine once said in an interview: 'no, we don't hire MTF's, they've already had all their chances in their former lifes as men'. Which is true, for being dominant, ambitious, competative former  straight men....and often very well educated and high climbers.


This feminist editor is  just not politically correct brainwashed, doesn't give anyone a chance to and sees things very clear, realistic and in all  honesty.

Sibilla, I guess you live in a Western country like I do?

I often wondered how come some many EU/USA MTF's are so masculine (and into women) while as in South America it's exactly the opposite,  same in Asia. Most MTF's there are  very feminine ex gay men.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 10:17:11 AMI  too thought the same after reading Janice Raymonds 'The Transsexual Empire'.......crappy, but she DOES have a point.

I haven't read that book but I can say that anyone who thinks we are "men invading womyn's* spaces" has an incomplete grasp of our reality.

*(or however she spells it.)

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 10:17:11 AM
I too noticed a long time ago that a lot of TS's were and are very masculine, radiating masculine energy, dominance, ambition etcetc waaaaaay stronger than any GG can ever do.

I only met a very few TS's who were and are feminine 'from the inside out'.

I also see (masculine) men becoming women instead of fysically and mentally becoming the women they were/are.

And yes, I  too thought the same after reading Janice Raymonds 'The Transsexual Empire'.......crappy, but she DOES have a point.

So the fact that some transwomen don't match with your definition of feminine behavior (which is culturally defined, by the by) disqualifies their argument that they're women? They are as Raymond says, just men trying to undermine the feminist movement? Back that up. I'm calling your bluff.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 10:17:11 AM
Here in Holland the editor of the biggest feminist magazine once said in an interview: 'no, we don't hire MTF's, they've already had all their chances in their former lifes as men'. Which is true, for being dominant, ambitious, competative former  straight men....and often very well educated and high climbers.


This feminist editor is  just not politically correct brainwashed, doesn't give anyone a chance to and sees things very clear, realistic and in all  honesty.

Sibilla, I guess you live in a Western country like I do?

I often wondered how come some many EU/USA MTF's are so masculine (and into women) while as in South America it's exactly the opposite,  same in Asia. Most MTF's there are  very feminine ex gay men.

Dahlia, I live in Denmark. I don't match with your definition of feminine behavior. I play baseball, I shoot guns, I practice martial arts. I assert my opinion and stand up for what I think is right. I was raised in a military family, these are the things I grew up with. Are you suggesting that I'm actually just a gay man who likes to dress in drag? It isn't the product of brainwashing to call what that feminist magazine editor said what it is: bull-crap. An MtF transsexual is a woman. Your argument that she is not if she doesn't act all dainty, wear pretty dresses all the time, and prefer a flower field to a baseball field is patriarchal nonsense, a direct conflict with the aims of the feminist movement. If anyone is undermining the feminist movement, it's people like you and that editor.

<it's people like you>

So? Am I overly feminine because I don't shoot guns, don't like baseball, football, soccer, martial arts, computers, drumkits, cars, electrical guitars and never had any intention to join the army for whatever reason?

And surprise surprise, I don't wear pretty dresses all the time, I just dress casual feminine, little make up.   I don't act dainty, just ordinairy feminine, by nature that is, not 'learned' in one way or another.

But yes, I prefer a flowerfield over a baseballfield.

I grew up in an almost  all male household, except for my mother......a very masculine father and 4 very masculine brothers. I never took over their sports, interests, masculine behaviour etc because I wasn't interested at all in those kind of things and  feminine by nature and yes, played with dolls, neighbourgirls etc.

Call me stereotypical, but I wasn't aware of 'feminist behaviour' as a young child.
Just feminine by nature and back then,  and yeeeeessss......wearing my neighbours girlfriends pretty dresses as often as I could. Out in the open that was.
Can you image the problems that arose with my very masculine father and 4 very masculine brothers?


<and that editor>

I can understand her perfectly why she and her coworkers don't hire MTF's. She's perfectly right about them having had their chances as former straight, dominant, ambitious and competative well educated men and high climbers too.
And who are different women nowadays.

I only wondered........pity she thinks that's the only kind of MTF's and doesn't acknowledge the (tiny) minority of primary MTF's who were feminine by nature  from the very beginning as a very young child.
And didn't have that many chances as.....etcetc

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 12:09:16 PMI can understand her perfectly why she and her coworkers don't hire MTF's. She's perfectly right about them having had their chances as former straight, dominant, ambitious and competative well educated men and high climbers too.

No she isn't. Show me one MtF who was a happy, successful "man" before transition. Besides, because somebody transitions, they should be denied work???? What am I missing here?

Nothing wrong with football in the european sense of the word. My flatmate played at the highest level of women's football and is an even bigger fan than myself.

As for Janice Raymond, words fail to express how much I despise that person for the unhappiness they have caused to others.

<don't match with your definition of feminine behavior (which is culturally defined, by the by) >

No, most behaviour is inborn due to XX and XY and for instance XXY/Klinefelters chromosomes.

Remember the tragic case of John/Joan-Bruce/Brenda the genetic baby boy who was surgically and hormonally altered into girl after a botched circumcision? John Money, remember?

He didn't know he was born a genetic boy and, boy his masculine nature/behaviour came out with a force while being raised as a 'girl'.

'Nature' came out with a force, despite his 'nurture' as a 'girl'.

We've learned a lot from that ever since like <patriarchal nonsense> is an old fashioned excuse.

Hmm maybe i should change my name to MOREWOMANTHANYOU  ::)

;)

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 01:05:18 PM
<don't match with your definition of feminine behavior (which is culturally defined, by the by) >

No, most behaviour is inborn due to XX and XY and for instance XXY/Klinefelters chromosomes.

Remember the tragic case of John/Joan-Bruce/Brenda the genetic baby boy who was surgically and hormonally altered into girl after a botched circumcision? John Money, remember?

He didn't know he was born a genetic boy and, boy his masculine nature/behaviour came out with a force while being raised as a 'girl'.

'Nature' came out with a force, despite his 'nurture' as a 'girl'.

We've learned a lot from that ever since like <patriarchal nonsense> is an old fashioned excuse.

I have to restrain myself from screaming profanities and insults at you, because this is so wrong it's pathetic. Behavior is programmed? My chromosomes are what tell me to like baseball, guns, and martial arts? Guess what, Dahlia: YOU HAVE THE EXACT SAME CHROMOSOME SET THAT I DO FOR DETERMINING BIOLOGICAL SEX!!!!! And yet somehow, some way, we manage to act differently. We manage to have drastically different hobbies and so forth.

Could it possibly be...? Could it be that John/Joan had a fixed male gender identity, but was actively discouraged from pursuing his interests and continually told again, and again, and again that he was a she, and that maybe (just maybe) THAT is what caused all the psychological trauma? Could it also be that his interests were not the product of genetic programming, but *gasp* a genuine interest? Is it possible that humans are not programmed drones, but develop individual interests over time? Nahhh, Dahlia knows what she's talking about. We're all machines, and we do whatever we're programmed to do. Never mind the people with two X chromosomes who join the military, play sports, work on computers, and so forth. They don't exist, and are just an old-fashioned myth propagated by feminists to undermine traditional, biologically programmed gender norms. And never mind that those norms vary by culture, that's just another feminist myth.

Dahlia, darling. SHUT UP.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 12:09:16 PM
<and that editor>

I can understand her perfectly why she and her coworkers don't hire MTF's. She's perfectly right about them having had their chances as former straight, dominant, ambitious and competative well educated men and high climbers too.
And who are different women nowadays.

I only wondered........pity she thinks that's the only kind of MTF's and doesn't acknowledge the (tiny) minority of primary MTF's who were feminine by nature  from the very beginning as a very young child.
And didn't have that many chances as.....etcetc

Dahlia, that editor is saying that I'm less of a woman than she is. YOU are saying that I'm less of a woman than you are. There is no quicker way to make me angry than that (as you might have noticed). Just because I'm a military girl doesn't mean I'm not a girl, or that I'd have done better simply accepting my birth sex. You better get your ->-bleeped-<- straight.

Doesn't everyone here technically have xy genes? I mean it manifests itself in physical form. I mean I see the sausage and potaters and I am like, "wow, I was born an XY!"

Not tryin to offend, but it's the truth.

That is correct, Mahsa. Physical characteristics are determined by chromosomes and genetics. She's arguing that behavior attributed to different gender norms is as well, which is a whole other ball game. In essence, she's arguing that she likes dresses better than pants because of some biological agent rather than as a personal preference. That's a very different claim.

*Edited for clarity.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 06, 2011, 04:22:39 PM
That is correct, Mahsa. Physical characteristics are determined by chromosomes and genetics. She's arguing that behavior attributed to different gender norms is as well, which is a whole other ball game. In essence, she's arguing that she likes dresses better than pants because of some biological agent rather than as a personal preference. That's a very different claim.

*Edited for clarity.

I don't care how much the transcommunity says, "I have a female brain/genes/etc" Yes, I consider them female because I respect my fellow women. However, to not at least remember or acknowledge you were born XY(if only physically... Not mentally) just comes off as crazy. I know people have different dsyphoria, but also to ignore our real past is problematic. I embrace both...Because duality exists in us all.

Like people who say, "I got my genes examined and have xxxxxyyyyyyyy" whatever, you were born with a male part...you are xy in that respect. No shame in that. This board is about transforming in one way or another here. But no one is better than anyone else. I am sick of the "I'm a real female cuz I had srs" argument.

<HAVE THE EXACT SAME CHROMOSOME SET THAT I DO FOR DETERMINING BIOLOGICAL SEX!!!!! >

Do you need to  pretend to be clairvoyant? No, we don't have the exact same chromosome set. I have an extra X, Klinefelter.

<she's arguing that she likes dresses better than pants because of some biological agent rather than as a personal preference. That's a very different claim.>

Where did I write that??  I never wear dresses or skirts!

It seems you're the one who is prejudiced ;-)

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 04:32:27 PM
<HAVE THE EXACT SAME CHROMOSOME SET THAT I DO FOR DETERMINING BIOLOGICAL SEX!!!!! >

Do you need to  pretend to be clairvoyant? No, we don't have the exact same chromosome set. I have an extra X, Klinefelter.

And this helps you claim that chromosomes determine behavior because...?

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 04:32:27 PM
<HAVE THE EXACT SAME CHROMOSOME SET THAT I DO FOR DETERMINING BIOLOGICAL SEX!!!!! >

Do you need to  pretend to be clairvoyant? No, we don't have the exact same chromosome set. I have an extra X, Klinefelter.

We're really proud of you. But did you check your pants and see what the chromosomes gave ya?

Btw, your environment determines your behavior. I came from an abusive homelife and was a troublemaker in the gay community. That had more of an effect on me than any of my genes. You may be more predisposed to doing stuff, but not exactly.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 06, 2011, 04:38:31 PM
We're really proud of you. But did you check your pants and see what the chromosomes gave ya?

Sure I did. Infertile.

Furthermore: total absense of bodyhair including armpits, very sparse pubic hair, wide hips, etcetc.

And....people are more than genitals alone.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 04:32:27 PM
<she's arguing that she likes dresses better than pants because of some biological agent rather than as a personal preference. That's a very different claim.>

Where did I write that??  I never wear dresses or skirts!

It seems you're the one who are prejudiced ;-)

Um...remember when you regaled us with your stories of girlhood, when you would go over to your girlfriends houses and try on their dresses? Um...maybe I got it from that, which you attached to an argument that behavior is definitively feminine or masculine and biologically determined. Maybe? O_O

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 06, 2011, 04:42:51 PM
Um...remember when you regaled us with your stories of girlhood, when you would go over to your girlfriends houses and try on their dresses? Um...maybe I got it from that, which you attached to an argument that behavior is definitively feminine or masculine and biologically determined. Maybe? O_O

As a child, not as an adult.

And yes, I find shooting guns, militairy, baseball etcetc typical masculine things to do. Especially shooting guns.

I've never heard a GG shouting down she's a real, 100% GG, no matter how butch. Only masculine MTF's....

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 06, 2011, 04:42:51 PM
Um...remember when you regaled us with your stories of girlhood, when you would go over to your girlfriends houses and try on their dresses? Um...maybe I got it from that, which you attached to an argument that behavior is definitively feminine or masculine and biologically determined. Maybe? O_O

Meh. It's cultural... I used to wear tight jeans, black/red chucks, ripped up back shirts, and shave my head cuz I was a kink twink not because the DNA made me do it. DNA does not cause compulsions. It is rather a series of things in a persons life.

I think the whole, "DNA made me do it" is a justification for what society would consider an otherwise deviant behavior. Thus, trans people need to be more honest with themselves and the society at large.

Dahlia, the time frame of the behavior was not the point you conveyed, even if it was the point you were trying to make. What you conveyed was an argument that you wore dresses and didn't play sports because you were feminine in your girlhood, and that these are the behaviors of one who was feminine early on. What you're agreeing with as you side with that editor is that people who did not share your girlhood experiences would have been better off living as men. DO YOU DENY IT?

Mahsa, we agree on the argument that behaviors, mannerism, and dress being attributed to males or females are always attributed through a cultural screen rather than a biological one. I would have to think about the rest.

<DO YOU DENY IT?>

Would I? I wrote different women. Read again.

I'm sorry to say, but I'm not susceptable to (masculine) militairy interrogations.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 04:56:09 PM
<DO YOU DENY IT?>

Would I? I wrote different women. Read again.

I'm sorry to say, but I'm not susceptable to (masculine) militairy interrogations.

That usually works. But last night, a navy go go dancer interroGAYted me and my friend.

It was hot.

Dahlia, you are dodging your own words by trying to distract me with something else you said. You argued that this editor was right in what she had said. That means you accept her argument. That means that yes, you would and yes you did argue that transwomen exhibiting "masculine" tendencies would have been better off not pursuing HRT or SRS. Try to hide from your words if you want. YOU re-read. When you say someone is right, by entailment you accept their argument. Sorry, that's how logic works.

Just in case you doubt my honesty about your argument, here you go:

"Here in Holland the editor of the biggest feminist magazine once said in an interview: 'no, we don't hire MTF's, they've already had all their chances in their former lifes as men'. Which is true, for being dominant, ambitious, competative former  straight men....and often very well educated and high climbers.


This feminist editor is  just not politically correct brainwashed, doesn't give anyone a chance to and sees things very clear, realistic and in all  honesty."

Also, your little addition about them being different women now still doesn't address my argument: that you're claiming that only MtFs that conform to your definition of femininity are to be considered women. That would be the "different" part, Dahlia.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 06, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
Dahlia, you are dodging your own words by trying to distract me with something else you said. You argued that this editor was right in what she had said. That means you accept her argument. That means that yes, you would and yes you did argue that transwomen exhibiting "masculine" tendencies would have been better off not pursuing HRT or SRS. Try to hide from your words if you want. YOU re-read. When you say someone is right, by entailment you accept their argument. Sorry, that's how logic works.

They are different women. Born as XY males, mostly ex straight ex man behaving accordingly. Is she obliged to hire a different woman with a (long) past as a completely passable straight guy including all chances for a good education, a career etc?

I would rather say.....hire a MTF who was feminine from her early years as a child. She had a battle in life. She has suffered from prejudice from straight men who ruined her chances for a good education and career.

It seems to me you don't really understand what it means to be very feminine as a child. You simple don't get the chance to build a healthy ego like yours.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 05:13:21 PM
They are different women. Born as XY males, mostly ex straight ex man behaving accordingly. Is she obliged to hire a different woman with a (long) past as a completely passable straight guy including all chances for a good education, a career etc?

Former straight men?

One needs to look no further than the "do I pass threads?" here. They are filled with former straight men who seem fascinated with transition. Just as I retained my gay cattiness, they retained whatever it is straight men do. People are not "reborn" as someone else. It doesn't work like that. If you had an awkward personality/look before, chances are you'll retain that after transition. You'll feel better in yourself, but the same person is always gonna be there.

Transition overall is about appearances, yes you are living your life as a woman even if your personality never changed. Talking about hair and makeup and being sensitive doesn't reflect that.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 05:13:21 PM
They are different women. Born as XY males, mostly ex straight ex man behaving accordingly. Is she obliged to hire a different woman with a (long) past as a completely passable straight guy including all chances for a good education, a career etc?

I would rather say.....hire a MTF who was feminine from her early years as a child. She had a battle in life. She has suffered from prejudice from straight men who ruined her chances for a good education and career.

It seems to me you don't really understand what it means to be very feminine as a child. You simple don't get the chance to build a healthy ego like yours.

So the moral of the story is that if I want to enjoy activities such as martial arts, gunplay, and so forth, the only correct course is for me to live in the closet forever and pretend to be a man. If I should ever desire to cultivate my female gender identity, I had better conform to Dutch gender norms. Dahlia, we're done here. You're either an idiot or a troll, and either way you're not worth talking to. Oh, and it's interesting to discover that I haven't had a hard life. News to me.

Have fun with her, Mahsa.

<and pretend to be a man>

I think you don't have a single problem doing that. You would be utter credible I think considering your behaviour in your posts and your masculine hobbies and militairy profession.

Hope your militairy collegue's consider you a '100% woman'. If yes, you're lucky.

Yep, troll. Thought so. Shut it.

To suggest that behaviour is conditioned purely by chromosomes is not only absurd but flies in the face of all this site is supposed to stand for. Just read the header at the top of the page.

If you don't like that do your worst and go ahead and ban me. I certainly wasn't the one who declared this site 'Transgender'.

I'm with Mahsa and SS on this one.

Quote from: Amazon D on November 06, 2011, 03:59:34 PM
Hmm maybe i should change my name to MOREWOMANTHANYOU  ::)

;)

Thats what you are but what am I ?  8)

Since me myself and I think were right well that makes you wrong because 3 against one makes us an arsehole so there  >:-)

Because i said so thats why.. so there phhhtpphhh  :D

Damn, guys. Wow.

I smell locked topic in the oven....

Quote from: cynthialee on November 06, 2011, 09:15:05 PM
I smell locked topic in the oven....

What kind of oven? Because first I smell Zyklon-B

Quote from: Laura91 on November 06, 2011, 09:19:27 PM
I doubt it.

Hell, it's made it this far. Why not another pointless 9 pages?

How ya doin friend?

Yes, we're friends now.