Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Cross-dressers are also "T"s
Brian McNaught

http://diversityguides.com/gay_workplace/?p=505 (http://diversityguides.com/gay_workplace/?p=505)

Cross-dressers are like bisexuals. They are allegedly in the majority of their minority communities (transgender and non-heterosexual, respectively) but no one knows who they are.

When average people use the acronym LGBT, they have little, if any, knowledge of cross-dressing beyond Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, and RuPaul. But one of these cross-dressers is a make-believe person, and the other is an entertainer. What about real people who cross-dress as part of their everyday lives? Who are they? Why don't we know them? What do they need?

We point with pride, deservedly so, at the successes of transsexual women and men who serve in corporate executive positions, and in the Obama administration, but can we name one successful cross-dressing heterosexual or homosexual man in either of those places?

I believe the term for Cross Dressers is Transvestites.  SO yes that would make them trans something

The sports announcer, Marv Albert...wasn't he in the news some years back when he was involved with a woman and his crossdressing was exploited in the news?

Tricky one to broach this without getting into an agument with someone. But I think that the main reason why crossdressers are under represented within the LGBT movement is because a lot identify as hetrosexual men and don't really feel a part of the queer community.

I agree with Millie.

Yea, lets add specific language to allow cross dressing men to use the women's restroom. That should help ENDA get the boost it needs.

Transvestites are what it says on the tin, trans and vestite, i.e changing clothing. They have nothing to do with trans sexism, which is gender dysphoria. The law does not recognise transvestites in any way other than as a curiosity, whereas transexuals lawfully (with a GRC) change their legal sex from their birth sex. Transvestites get a kick out of ( usually men wearing women's clothing) pretending to be female for a short time, whereas transsexuals have a hatred for their natal anatomy and wearing the clothing of their assigned sex is just part of being the person they inwardly felt they should be.

  This is a tough one for me... and my opinion won't be universally accepted... 

  The term, "Transgender," is about one's gender identity, not about clothes. Clothes are certainly a means toward gender identity and expression but certainly not an end. In other words, if one's goal in crossdressing is to crossdress, I couldn't really see how that person could be considered Transgender. If one's goal is to identify and be perceived as something other than hir chromosomal sex, even some of the time or with fluidity, I would certainly identify that individual as Transgender. A fetish, however, has NOTHING to do with gender identity. We don't see positive images of crossdressers around because most folks have an issue with public displays of sexual behavior.

 

Quote from: MillieB on April 05, 2011, 12:35:23 PM
Tricky one to broach this without getting into an agument with someone. But I think that the main reason why crossdressers are under represented within the LGBT movement is because a lot identify as hetrosexual men and don't really feel a part of the queer community.

   This is so true....

  As a woman born transsexual, I've had to work hard at correcting the rampant misconceptions about Transgender people. The unfortunate reality is that crossdressers are responsible for many of those misconceptions. The first correction that I always have to make is that gender identity is independent of sexuality.... and that I didn't go though transition just because I like to wear womens clothes.

   

Quote from: JessicaR on April 05, 2011, 03:41:20 PM
The unfortunate reality is that crossdressers are responsible for many of those misconceptions.

I don't agree with this. In my opinion, those who perpetuate lies and misinformation based on their fears about transgender people are wholly responsible for the misconceptions. They don't differentiate between drag, cross dressing or transsexuals. They hate all of us equally!

Z

You just made fashion something akin to sexuality, or you write like crap.  One or the other.

< coughing on diesel fumes in my best dress, wig, and heels >  Hmmm, might as well change the oil while I'm under this bus.

Quote from: tekla on April 05, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
You just made fashion something akin to sexuality, or you write like crap.  One or the other.

  Is there really a benefit to personal attacks?

Zythyra. You may not agree that transvestites confuse the issue, but it is so. Back in the seventies, when I was sent to a psychiatrist because I said I wanted to be and felt female, he advised taking up amateur dramatics and dressing up. That view persists. Whether we are all hated equally, I don't know. Times are a changing. The number of openly gay and lesbian entertainers tells me that they are accepted more and more, in fact they often earn a living out of their 'gayness'. Men certainly have a lascivious interest in lesbianism and in particular 2 women 'doing it'.

However, few understand truly, the transsexual, which I find totally logical. Ask any 'normal' person, whether they would change their sex. They do not answer, might or don't know, they would be horrified as a woman to have a penis or vice versa, and would be just as unhappy as we who have the wrong bodies. The more we are out, as transsexuals are in say Thailand, the more accepted we will be.

Social perception is that CDs are all male.  That is due to the fact it is socially acceptable for women to wear male styled clothing.  If that weren't the case, natal females with a propensity to wear male clothing (this assumes fashions like menswear wouldn't exist and therefore these women would have to buy from the mens department) would be considered crossdressers.  That is something few consider when addressing issues such as this.

Crossdressing is not just about clothing.  Clothing to the CD is a statement of who they are just the same as it is for anyone else.  (I'm not considering anyone who crossdresses as a means to an end, not part of one's personality.) 

Some who identify as crossdressers today may tomorrow come to the realization they are TG or TS.  And some may be forever unable to even consider the idea of coming out to the public for fear of losing what they have.  So you have to be careful when categorizing these people as "just crossdressers." 

Those who think CDs crossdress just for sexual arousal need to consider the fact after the "thrill is gone" they continue to crossdress.  There's something within their personal identity that causes this need.  So it isn't just a sexual thing.

All that being said, I see no justification for not including CDs under the T umbrella.

As far as not being able to name any accomplished CDs, don't expect to find one anytime soon, at least not until society loses its prejudice and bigotry and stops thinking it's okay to punish people who are different.

When I came out as crossdresser, I enjoyed wearing the clothes. It didn't take me long to comprehend that my feelings ran deeper than just clothing. When I read about what transgender is, it connected with me right away.

Many CDs I know later learned that they were TG (my case) or TS. I looked at myself under the TG umbrella almost from the start. If a woman wears a suit, it's considers stylish. If a man wears a skirt, he's called a pervert. Can you say 'double standard'?

Another point is that boys and men always have to represent what maleness is. They constantly put on a pedestal and any deviation from that is met with derision and scorn.

Gennee

I think that the way a person self identifies is really the key and whether they consider themselves as being part of the trans community is really up to the individual

I do not believe that any of us have the right to exclude anyone who feels that they belong under the T umbrella

I feel it is also important to remember that not everyone wants to be part of the trans community and I definitely am not going to push it on anybody

Fair enough?

*Cracks whip* "Now get under that umbrella and stay there!!!"  >:-)

Quote from: Virginia Marie on April 06, 2011, 03:35:39 PM
I think that the way a person self identifies is really the key and whether they consider themselves as being part of the trans community is really up to the individual

I do not believe that any of us have the right to exclude anyone who feels that they belong under the T umbrella

I feel it is also important to remember that not everyone wants to be part of the trans community and I definitely am not going to push it on anybody

Fair enough?

*Cracks whip* "Now get under that umbrella and stay there!!!"  >:-)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-mpIGNqww0ks%2FTZxja6ZnjFI%2FAAAAAAAAAE4%2FpaTdeQrLwx4%2Fs1600%2Ft-borg.jpg&hash=7a3999d49c769a1fc98854eba40e709b57355b33)

I may be wrong, but I personally feel we all spend far to long trying to put each other into a box, worrying about what to call each other. I've never been a fan of labels and such. I'm me and I am who I am, I used to worry about being called a cross dresser or transvestite as I'm a transsexual but in the end I just gave up worrying about it. I just got tired of the whole putting each other into boxes kind of thing. 

Quote from: Dana Lane on April 06, 2011, 06:24:23 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-mpIGNqww0ks%2FTZxja6ZnjFI%2FAAAAAAAAAE4%2FpaTdeQrLwx4%2Fs1600%2Ft-borg.jpg&hash=7a3999d49c769a1fc98854eba40e709b57355b33)

:laugh:

Quote from: jussie on April 06, 2011, 06:29:03 PM
I may be wrong, but I personally feel we all spend far to long trying to put each other into a box, worrying about what to call each other. I've never been a fan of labels and such. I'm me and I am who I am, I used to worry about being called a cross dresser or transvestite as I'm a transsexual but in the end I just gave up worrying about it. I just got tired of the whole putting each other into boxes kind of thing. 

I hear ya on that one  :)

"Don't Box Me In" Stewart Copeland and Stan Ridgway (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j6Tln0lN0c#)

Due to the fact that the transgender umbrella has gotten so confusing and in many cases contradictory, I've personally discontinued its use. I'm guessing this is also why some people use the terms "LGBTT" or "LGBT/T" instead of just "LGBT." Instead I use the term "gender variant." A self-identified CD would be gender variant. In the case of a man who dresses up occasionally as a female, this CD would still be considered a male but gender variant. Some CDs are in the questioning phase and may actually be latent (undiagnosed) TS people. But until they come to that conclusion I would call them gender variant.

I would also group genderqueers, androgynes, and transvestite fetishists as gender variant as well. Where I generally differ from many is how I treat medical transsexualism. I would not call it gender variant because unlike the others it is a medical condition of someone with the brain of one sex and the body of the other. Once the two are in sync, many don't even identify as TS anymore anyway, they've transitioned, and gone on with their lives as the men or women they were always meant to be despite the original birth defect. I think that by replacing "transgender" with "gender variant" it avoids a lot of misunderstandings and perhaps makes it easier for the non-GV/TS public to understand. A lot of the arguments I've noticed lately stem from TS being compared or otherwise included with the other gender variant people. Sure there are similiarities but then there are very important differences. So many people think that TG=TS and hence the problem. Using GV in place of TG solves that problem immediately.

In the end though, I think all should be respected and treated fairly. Unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary, I think that people should be respected as how they self-identify.

Quote from: Zythyra on April 05, 2011, 09:04:11 AM

We point with pride, deservedly so, at the successes of transsexual women and men who serve in corporate executive positions, and in the Obama administration, but can we name one successful cross-dressing heterosexual or homosexual man in either of those places?

No, not in those places ... but the comedian/actor Eddy Izzard has never made any secret of the fact that he is a transvestite and it doesn't seem to have hurt his career at all ... not at home in the UK, anyway. Maybe he tones it down a it when he goes Stateside ...

Quote from: Julie Marie on April 06, 2011, 01:27:41 PM
Social perception is that CDs are all male.  That is due to the fact it is socially acceptable for women to wear male styled clothing.  If that weren't the case, natal females with a propensity to wear male clothing (this assumes fashions like menswear wouldn't exist and therefore these women would have to buy from the mens department) would be considered crossdressers.  That is something few consider when addressing issues such as this.

Crossdressing is not just about clothing.  Clothing to the CD is a statement of who they are just the same as it is for anyone else.  (I'm not considering anyone who crossdresses as a means to an end, not part of one's personality.) 

Some who identify as crossdressers today may tomorrow come to the realization they are TG or TS.  And some may be forever unable to even consider the idea of coming out to the public for fear of losing what they have.  So you have to be careful when categorizing these people as "just crossdressers." 

Those who think CDs crossdress just for sexual arousal need to consider the fact after the "thrill is gone" they continue to crossdress.  There's something within their personal identity that causes this need.  So it isn't just a sexual thing.

All that being said, I see no justification for not including CDs under the T umbrella.

As far as not being able to name any accomplished CDs, don't expect to find one anytime soon, at least not until society loses its prejudice and bigotry and stops thinking it's okay to punish people who are different.

I agree with Julie.

Transgender - If we define this time, it is simply 'Trans' the 'Gender' - which means someone who identifies/enjoys/likes himself/herself as the opposite sex with which he/she was born. Now, the intensity of the feelings, and the actions taken to achieve those goals is the way of the process. If someone merely wear the clothes of the opposite sex for this purpose he/she is a 'Transvestite'. If the change of sex occurs, he/she is a 'Transsexual'. Based on this concept, there are two types of 'Transgender' - 'Tranvestites' & 'Transsexual'. We're actually confused by normally taking 'Transsexuals' as being the only type of 'Transgenders'. However, 'Transvestites' are also 'Transgenders'. Now, something interested to know here. NOT ALL TRANSVESTITES ARE TRANSGENDERS. Having a 'Transvestite Clothing Fetish' is different than having a Transgender response of mind for Gender orientation, wear and act like opposite sex. This is all psychological aspects, which further confuses the concept.

Now, when we talk about LGBT, although we write the T in it is 'Transgender', more often, we treat this T for 'Transsexuals'. The problem that occurs is that, most of 'Transvestites' normally want to keep their original sex intact. Many of them are heterosexuals (according to their natural birth), and don't want to entertain the rights that 'Transsexuals' require. They don't mind being considered 'Fetishists', as many of them are only 'Transvestites' due to 'Transvestite Clothing Fetish' and not because of 'Gender Orientation'.

Although Transvestites are part of Transgender umbrella, normally there issues, problems, desires, and requirements are lot different than Transsexuals - who has more common issues with Homosexuals and Bisexuals. This is one of the reason Transvestites consider themselves in Fetish umbrella, and it is more favorable for them and everyone as well. Some points mentioned above. Look at it closely. A Transvestite female (originally a male) is heterosexual. Should he be allowed to use the female restroom? (we need to use 'He' for him as he has kept his original sex intact, and only wants to wear female clothes)

Now we can look at the concept from the other side of the picture, and discuss it from there. Based on the concept of Fetishism, and ->-bleeped-<-, there are two types of Tranvestites. One is 'Fetishist Transvestite' and another is 'Transgender Transvestite'.

Most of the fetishists prefer to act Transvestites occasionally, or during the role-plays. Many of them even prefer to hide the fact that they are Transvestites.

Transgender Transvestites can have more desires to go forward. Many of them realize in time that they are actually Transgenders, and they don't have mere Fetish of clothing. They move forward and become Transsexuals.

We can't just make a rule and put all in a box. Even they don't know which category they belong to, whether they should keep themselves in Fetish umbrella or should become part of Transgender community. However, Transgender community should have an 'Opening' for all the 'Transvestites', as we know that some of them are indeed 'Transgenders'.

I hope it explains the concept.

Zakfar.

A lot of the terms are actually being used incorrectly when you apply the dictionary definitions to them.

TG or transgender is now being touted as the "umbrella" term for everything else and if I'm not mistaken this site/forum also uses it in such a manner. This is generally the accepted use of the eterm these days. However, the prefix "-trans" is literally defined to mean "change, across, through, beyond." It doesn't mean "hover between the two" or "go back and forth." At least not how I read into it. Then you have the definitions of "gender" and "sex" which also are similar but different.

Gender is generally defined as someone's own perception of maleness, femaleness, masculinity, femininity, and also can include how they dress, socialize, etc. and a lot if what constitutes gender varies between cultures and generations.

Sex is literally someone's biological and physiological aspect of male or female.

Understanding that, transgender would be taken to mean "changing genders" and transsexual would be "changing sex." Trans- is also very similar in definition to transition. There still is a distinction using that definition between TG and TS. A person can change one's gender while biologically keeping the same sex. Only the TS changes sex via hormones and surgeries. Obviously we know that one's sex is also in the brain but I'm referring to anatomy here.

Self-identified TVs, CDs, GQs, and DQs/DKs do not consider themselves to be "changing gender" or "changing sex." This is why "gender variant" in my opinion is a far more accurate term to those groups than "transgender" whereas "transsexual" would be a completely inaccurate term altogether.

Furthermore, it is common these days for a lot of people to come out identifying as TS yet who personally do not want hormones or surgeries but to otherwise live a full time role as their target gender. I'm not referring to non-ops who can't take hormones or surgeries due to medical conditions but specifically toward those who identify as TS yet who choose not to take hormones or go through surguries. Using the literal definitions these people are not TS because while they are "changing genders" via the definition of gender above they are not biologically or anatomically "changing sex." In that case, they would be more accurately described as TG.

Yeah, it's pretty confusing but this is how I see it. In the guise of political correctness these days people want to be able to identify however they want. True, it's their right and I don't generally tell people what to do but there is clearly an improper use of language being used in the mainstream with regards to these terms.

The same goes with gender and sex itself. A man who identifies as CD and is out dressed as a woman and socializing as a female on a Friday night dinner will have a female gender but is still of the male sex. It is important to understand this for certain very critical reasons. For instance, it is why as a pre-op TS myself when I go to the doctor I make them understand that currently my sex is male but I'm transitioning to female. This allows them to socially refer to me and treat me as a female but understand that when it comes to treating me medically that they understand that I am male by sex which could be extremely relevant for certain medical reasons. Anyway, I'm rambling. The point though is that it is important to understand what actually is and is not and not cow down to any PC movement that everyone is whoever they say they are because in technical terms they are not.

I also want to make it clear that I am not advocating any type of exclusion or separation of people in case anyone alleges that. No one should be treated as less than anyone else. We all have similar and different needs. Interestingly enough, the top of this page says "Susan's Transgender Resources" but it could as easily say "Susan's Gender Resources" and essentially cover the exact same topics.