Susan's Place Transgender Resources

FYI I want to say in advance for those that are like WTF who is this person I prefer instant feedback more then forums... I have been a longtime chatter on the IRC though tbh less active in recent years then I used to. Overall Susans and especially the IRC chatroom has been a major good thing in my life for going on 6 or so years now. Although in the last year I ended up admin'ing on another forum so yeah.. lol.. but I digress.. I wrote what I thought was a good post on stealth on the site I help run and wanted to share my thoughts and feelings here.

Reposted here from the other site I help run IDK if it's allowed to name the site maybe somone can let me know and I'll add it later.. :D
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The Sad tragedy of those living Stealth Do our greatest successes live in fear?

"Stealth" is when you do not reveal to anyone that you were ever born differently then you are today. Although the argument can be made that yes they/you always were girls, the argument can also be made that they were always girls but had to pretend to live as boys for a time. Persons in stealth / deep stealth will never allow their "secret" to be found out by friends and coworkers for fear of reprisal. Persons in stealth will also make little white and huge whopper lies to cover for themselves. Those in "Deep-Stealth" often move away from friends and family they have known for years sometimes never even telling them of their transition so that they can hide their secret completely. Thus some friends and family that might have still loved them even after transition are lost and the person is lost to their family. Possibly leaving family members that care very much behind and they will never see them again.

Imagine if one day someone you loved just moved away and disappeared with no answer no reason nothing. You'd likely be worrying about them for year after year possibly forever. Especially if you had a good relationship with them prior to them disappearing and didn't know this was gonna happen. Don't do this to family. Just cuase it may seem easier to you not to face rejection, imagine if they surprise you and support you. Further, why would you hurt people that love you just so you don't have to face the possibility of a rejection that may never happen? People please consider these things before abandoning your loved ones.

There are several reasons that I think this kind of living is unhealthy. The most clear reason to me is this.. I personally didn't go from lying to try and pretend to be a boy/guy only to live my life still lying now that I can finally be myself. Sure I don't wear a t-shirt saying I'm trans, or tell the cashier at the store. At the same time though if the store clerk asked me if I think transgendered persons are weird or wrong, I would likly say, "Do you think I'm weird? Cuase I AM transgendered as well." (assuming the clerk didn't know and made a comment for unknown reasons, lol)

This kind of "Stealth" living has left our community with either not passing to decently passing activists that are out and loud and not afraid cuase they know they can't pass as well as others and less people that show what is truly possible becuase those that pass 100% are the ones most likely to go stealth becuase they can. This I think is one of the tragedies of "Stealth" and the greatest shames of our community because our greatest success stories will never be known for they are all in hiding.

This has the effect that in the end the media and political circles show pictures of TG/TS people at protests and rallies and the bulk of those that show up for such events are ones that aren't afraid because they don't pass as well already. If one doesn't pass perfectly they have little to lose by reaching out publicly. I want to be clear I AM NOT insulting anyone here, but I know for a fact many gorgeous girls that hide and fear of anyone finding out they were not born as they are now. Those that do pass do not reach out to the rest of the community because they are afraid if they are seen helping others like them they will get treated badly and discriminated against. Whereas if they can pass and stay silent there is no risk of discrimination.

I also want to say I don't blame those that prefer to live in stealth for this. I understand all to well the fears of discrimination, but how can we ever end discrimination if our greatest successes are all in hiding? How can we be taken seriously? It is so sad that when people live in stealth for their own sake they are actually reinforcing those same stereotypes that cause the discrimination in the first place on us all.

No one should have to live in "Stealth". No one should have to fear they will be hurt or mistreated if it is found out they were born with a different letter on their birth certificate then now. And IMHO admitting that you were born with a physical sex that doesn't match your true gender identity does not undermine or lessen who you are. A person I knew used to say "I'm a woman with a very unusual medical history". That if anything is true of all of us.

In the end if you feel you have to live in "Stealth" to avoid discrimination, that you have to live your life filling it in with lies to cover your origins are you really living? People in stealth will make up stories of them as young girls playing with barbie or about their first period not to avoid being outed in conversations with other girls even when they NEVER owned a barbie. Some are so scared of being outed that if someone was trash-talking another TG/TS person right in front of them they would stay silent to avoid being found out.

Just something to think about and something I wanted to share. Personally I strongly dislike "Stealth" and "Deep-Stealth" even though I see why some choose to do it.

Quote"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
-- George Santayana ~1906

When we try to forget who we are and the experiences of the past, are we just propagating the same life of fear on future generations? Will our civil rights remain in infancy as Santayana stated as long as there is still those living in "stealth"?

Many of us "living in stealth" are not doing so out of fear, but doing so because we just want to live our life without unnecessarily broadcasting to everyone about us.

Its really none of their business.

Sarah I'm going to qualify this becuase I fear I might be misunderstood, and I'm concerned you took offense to my post from the tenor that I got out of your very short and terse reply, I don't mean to sound argumentative sarah... I really don't I am curious as to your thoughts..

Tell me if it weren't for the current lack of social acceptance in the social environment in general don't you think there would be less in stealth?

I mean why do you feel it must be a secret so private if it's not something we would suffer some reprisal from? Fear is not an uncommon thing in life in general and I think it diminishes no one to admit fear plays a role. I also fear talking about Doctor Who, Star Trek, Labrinth, The Dark Crystal, The Princess bride and Star Wars in front of some people even though they are my most favorite movies cause they will think I'm a nerd and a dreamer when I need them to think I'm serious. There's a stigma there too, not of the same level but I can honestly say yes it's fear.

Fear both protects us and hinders us it is a natural reaction and not one to be ashamed of that we all have. I tried to make it clear that I understand why people go into stealth and that I think it is a shame that society makes this feel a necessary step to some of us sometimes. I don't blame those in stealth I blame society. My point being that until we are willing to stand up and shout from the rooftops like the Million Man March we aren't going to get real recognition in society.

I'm deathly afraid of heights and I rarely put myself in a position where 1.) I have to deal with heights and 2.) have to tell someone of my fear for "fear" of them thinking I'm silly.

• Are you literally telling me fear plays no role?
• Are you saying that if society accepted this as a valid condition and it was treated in childhood like birth defects are you wouldn't feel less apprehension to tell people or of them finding it out on their own?
• Can you honestly say that stealth in any way helps us to improve our rights and our acceptance?
• Is stealth going to get us legal and medical care and protections we need easier and at young ages?

Hi Ariel

I think I'm living partly in stealth.
Not for a choice, just don't thinking about it.
I explain, my closest friends and relationships I have always told from the very beginning who I was, and what my past was.
I did always get a lot of understanding and those friends I allready  know now for more than 20 years.

We stopped talking about it long ago, I'm just one of the other girls.

At work I don't tell, why not?
Well, they see me as a woman, they treat me as a woman and I'm there to do my profession, that's why the company pays me for.
I'm not a better professional when I say: hey, you know I'm trans.
I don't think there would be any problems with it, but actyally I don't even have thinked about it.
For them I am just one of the girls and that;s the way I'm feeling myself.

After all, that's what I wanted in the old days, just to be a woman, so, I don't see it as stealth, I'm just myself.
And to be just yourself is the ultimate freedom for me.
Maybe it's too long ago since I transitioned, in daily life I don't think about it.

So, if this is living in syealth....it's not too bad.

hugs
Annette

I disagree with your premise, nothing more.   I wasn't offended by your post.

Its not secretive, its not private, its my life.  I have never been worried about "social acceptance." 

I'm not an activist.  I see no reason to go around telling everyone "oh hey, I'm TS."

People who I see at the mall don't need to know, people who knew me in my old life obviously know but don't care.

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Oh, I didn't mean to sound terse, that is just the way I type sometimes.

I just wish that the stigmas was not so great socially.

Personally I think we could get more rights and more protections and better health care if we all got up and shouted to the rooftops.

Also tbh many in stealth are some of the most passable people I know and I find it sad that the public at large doesn't realize that passable trans-people are not the minority that they seem to be. It just adds to the confusion and misunderstanding people have of us.

If only we could walk out there and all as a group not as activists but as people that ARE being discriminated against and ARE downtrodden that deserve to be heard for once.

quoted from... http://transequality.org/news.html#survey (http://transequality.org/news.html#survey) where over 6500 transgender persons were surveyed myself included lol.

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Among the key findings from "Injustice at Every Turn":

•     Respondents were nearly four times more likely to live in extreme poverty, with household income of less than $10,000.
•     Respondents were twice as likely to be unemployed compared to the population as a whole. Half of those surveyed reported experiencing harassment or other mistreatment in the workplace, and one in four were fired because of their gender identity or expression.
•     While discrimination was pervasive for the entire sample, it was particularly pronounced for people of color. African-American transgender respondents fared far worse than all others in many areas studied.
•     Housing discrimination was also common. 19% reported being refused a home or apartment and 11% reported being evicted because of their gender identity or expression. One in five respondents experienced homelessness because of their gender identity or expression.
•     An astonishing 41% of respondents reported attempting suicide, compared to only 1.6% of the general population.
•     Discrimination in health care and poor health outcomes were frequently experienced by respondents. 19% reported being refused care due to bias against transgender or gender-nonconforming people, with this figure even higher for respondents of color. Respondents also had over four times the national average of HIV infection.
•     Harassment by law enforcement was reported by 22% of respondents and nearly half were uncomfortable seeking police assistance.
•     Despite the hardships they often face, transgender and gender non-conforming persons persevere. Over 78% reported feeling more comfortable at work and their performance improving after transitioning, despite the same levels of harassment in the workplace.

Said Rea Carey, Executive Director of the Task Force: "By shedding light on the discrimination that transgender Americans face, this study poses a challenge to us all. No one should be out of a job, living in poverty, or faced with sub-par health care simply because of their gender identity or expression. The scope of the problem is clear, and now we must come together to solve it."

Said Mara Keisling, Executive Director of NCTE: "Reading these results is heartbreaking on a personal level—each of these facts and figures represents pain and hardship endured by real people, every single day. This survey is a call to the conscience of every American who believes that everyone has the right to a fair chance to work hard, to have a roof overhead, and to support a family. Equality, not discrimination, is the ideal that Americans believe in, have fought for, and need to apply here."

I'm not really "Asking" for anything more expressing my frustration that sadly....

• Society makes stealth a necessary reality for so many of us.
• We can't get recognition, rights and respect until we can come out of the dark.
  
• We can't eliminate stealth while we got no recognition, rights and respect.
  
• Wash. Risnse. Repeat.

It's a horrible viscous cycle. If we keep saying things like future generations then when will be the generation that does fight back?

It just makes me sad I really hope I'll see some kind of equality before my life ends but fact is we are easily 20-30 years behind the gay and lesbian community in terms of how much progress were making socially, and even they don't have equality yet. Add to that the self imposed exile and self perpetuation conditions of stealth and idk if we will ever get to equality and that scares me and makes me really sad.

edit: for one were also not as small of a minority as it seems those figures of 1 in 10,000 etc have been proven to be WAY off base the reality might be as high as 1 in 2500 to 1 in 500. I really wonder if you counted every single one of us stealth or not I bet the number would surprise many that think we don't have the numbers / power to push for rights.
I mean diabetics is less common then that and they have a significant power and push for example.

Hi Ariel

You said in your title 'The Sad tragedy of those living "Stealth" our greatest successes live in fear'.

Well I'm sorry but I' going to have to totally disagree with you just on the title alone.  I do not, I repeat I do not live in fear and I'm just one of many who have been successful in my life and absolutely nobody around me knows anything about my past life. This is the way it has been for the last 22 years and will remain so for the rest of my life.  This is just the way I am, that is I'm a very private person in regards to this particular issue and its nobody's business, whatsoever.

I do not like the terms stealth, deep stealth or even passing, they do not apply to me period.  However just to clarify my situation.  I left my family and friends 22 two years ago and they did not know where I was going, however through circumstances beyond my control my family found out and luckily for me they have been very accepting.  My past friends do not know and only a couple of doctors know my past medical history and everybody else does not know, my partners I tell depending on the circumstances.  I tell the truth in regards to my past and the only difference being are the 'pronouns' used by me and my family.   So in other words for the sake of this discussion, 'I'm deep stealth'.

Another reason why I live the life I do live is due to the fact of the article 'Injustice at Every Turn' (http://transequality.org/news.html#survey) that you posted.  However, should it come about that my past is revealed, I will be protected by the laws where I live and I do not live in fear of this scenario or anything similar, because one there is not one damn thing I would be able to do about it and secondly I know there are a lot of people around me who would be totally accepting.

As Sarah Louise basically puts it but with a difference.  My life is private, it is not secretive, I have never been worried about "social acceptance" and if people do not like me that is their problem, I'm not an activist and I see no absolute reason why I should go around telling everyone "oh hey, I'm TS or TG", because the fact of the matter is I'm not, never have been and I will never will be.  I did not go through what I went through just to be labelled with those labels.

I live my life, just as any other female does in society.  I took care of certain things so that I could function just like any other female and as Annette said, "to be just yourself is the ultimate freedom for me."

Warm regards
Sarah B

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EDIT: It seems people are taking offense to the title so I am going to edit it as I think this is an important conversation and that if the title alone is inflaming passions so much then it clearly is not communicating my true intent....
From.. The Sad tragedy of those living "Stealth" our greatest successes live in fear.
To....... The Sad tragedy of those living Stealth. Do our greatest successes live in fear?

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I'm not disagreeing with anyones comment's here other then the fact that obviously fear is a factor in being stealth.

Also I don't understand why people think you have to be either stealth or an activist. That seems very black and white to me.


Shouldn't we be able to stand up for our rights? Why is it that I keep hearing "activist" and "I'm not an activist"? When a people are oppressed and they fight back are they activists or are they just people that want justice.


Were the people at the stonewall riot activists? or just people that had been pushed by cops discriminating and they fought for their rights?

Were the people at the million man march activists? Or were they just people tired of the black community being treated like second class citizens?

QuoteI do not, I repeat I do not live in fear and I'm just one of many who have been successful in my life and absolutely nobody around me knows anything about my past life.

I do not like the terms stealth, deep stealth or even passing, they do not apply to me period.  However just to clarify my situation.  I left my family and friends 22 two years ago and they did not know where I was going...  So in other words for the sake of this discussion, 'I'm deep stealth'.

Another reason why I live the life I do live is due to the fact of the article 'Injustice at Every Turn' that you posted.  However, should it come about that my past is revealed, I will be protected by the laws where I live and I do not live in fear of this scenario or anything similar, because one there is not one damn thing I would be able to do about it and secondly I know there are a lot of people around me who would be totally accepting.

I can only ask reread your own words and think about them...

QuoteI do not, I repeat I do not live in fear

QuoteAnother reason why I live the life I do live is due to the fact of the article 'Injustice at Every Turn' that you posted.

QuoteHowever, should it come about that my past is revealed, I will be protected by the laws where I live and I do not live in fear of this scenario or anything similar, because one there is not one damn thing I would be able to do about it

Just think and look inside. Fear is not a bad thing. It protects us as is clear you understand by your comment "Another reason why I live the life I do live" Why are people equating fear with being a bad thing?

I think it's sad that we have reasons to be afraid and we do have reason to be afraid. We are raped, abused, discriminated against, unemployed and murdered more often then any other social group. That is not our fault it is societies fault that we live in fear. The stigma needs to change and hiding is only a temporary solution at best.

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I just question how are we to ever get recognition if we are a silent, invisible minority? We aren't alone many other people that were oppressed shared our same challenges blacks didn't go into "white" sections of town before the civil rights changed and often lived in their own self imposed segregated communities to try and "avoid trouble". Similar can be seen with other racial and even religious groups. Irish, German, Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish. All trying to find a way to harmlessly blend in and not stand out as being any of the above.

Is stealth just a modern incarnation of those earlier times and those other peoples?

In my mind stealth is just like when in the past Jewish people felt scared to freely admit their faith whereas the more dominant faiths talked freely about their beliefs and would make comments as god bless you etc. Similar issues to that can be seen today with Islamic followers that these days are cautious to let the wrong person know of their faith. Whereas thier christian(et all) will say god bless you, many islamists feel concern that the wrong person might hear them say "Allah bless you"....

Wow after a google search i found others then just Islamic use Allah commonly I wonder if they fear reprisal or confusion with Islamic extremists if they say it publicly..

Quoteused not only by Muslims, but also by Bahá'ís, Eastern Catholic Christians, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and Mizrahi Jews

Quote from: From_Ariel on April 12, 2011, 06:20:44 PMPersons in stealth will also make little white and huge whopper lies to cover for themselves.

This is a gross generalization. I, for example, have never lied in this way. Perhaps you should consider changing that "will" to "might."

I've always been a private person, and that hasn't changed. I'm pretty open on this site, but mostly because I can be anonymous here.

While I do have a certain amount of fear that people will find out about me, I have many reasons for living stealth, or as stealth as I can. One is that I don't want to be anybody's poster child or Trans 101 educator. I want to do other things with my life, like just enjoy living as a boy for a change.

P.S. I don't think it's a tragedy that I'm living stealth, but I do think it's a pity that I had to live as a girl for so long.

Hi Ariel

If you change the title, then I will change my answer in accordance with it.  Namely and I quote:

Quote from: From_Ariel on April 12, 2011, 09:24:42 PMFrom.. The Sad tragedy of those living "Stealth" our greatest successes live in fear.
To....... The Sad tragedy of those living Stealth. Do our greatest successes live in fear?

Absolutely and categoriclly NO.  If I lived my life in fear then my life would be an empty shell, I would not have achieved the things that I have achieved.

This is how I chose to live my life and the question that is, "Would I do anything differently, than I have done in the last 52 years?, except of course, done what I have done a lot earlier and the answer is of course "nothing".

By the way I told a little white lie, I'm an activist but not out, but a silent one none the less.  I work behind the scenes protecting others peoples rights and influence many people each day.  There is an old saying, "You have to be careful of the quiet ones".  I guess I have to say, "I'm one of those" and yes I'm doing my bit.

Warm regards
Sarah B

I think it depends on what you mean by stealth.

My definition of stealth is someone who will actively construct a false past and deny the truth when challenged. Maybe someone who is so delusional that even when confronted with hard evidence will be reluctant to be honest.

By that standard I do not live in stealth. The information about me is out here on the net and relatively easy to find if someone wants to go searching for it. However that does not mean that I wear a tee shirt advertising my past, nor do I routinely tell people of it. I have done so on occasion if it would be beneficial to a situation, but there is a world of difference between confiding in one or two people, when appropriate, and living your life as a flag waving poster-girl.

Do I allow open discussion of trans issues on my facebook page? No. Do I routinely confront my colleagues and friends with my past? Again no? Why don't I do this? Well not because of fear certainly, but out of consideration to them. Effective communication means the passing on of relevant information. It does not mean the willful bombarding of people with irrelevant stuff that they don't need to know, and which would probably achieve nothing more than to confuse them. So I will reveal my past only when the information is relevant and would benefit the recipient.

Finally it is a matter of self belief. I partially transitioned in childhood, no mean feat back in the 1960's, but I managed it. I fully transitioned and had my SRS in my early twenties. When you analyse my life there are very few inconvenient bits which don't fit and which therefore might have to be concealed. If asked to self define I would call myself a post corrected cis woman rather than a trans woman.

You may take me to task about my bending of terminology but the fact is that whilst not denying that I underwent SRS to get to where I am I simply do not experience life through the same lens as many trans people I meet. I have not experienced discrimination - EVER! I have not lost family and friends - EVER! I have not been fearful - EVER! So in a very real sense I don't get it because I haven't lived it. And yet here I am, and I am arrogant enough to think that one day my experience will be the norm.

If you actually believe in the treatment then completion of it must represent a cure for the condition, thus if you were ever trans, then when you have had SRS you are no longer such. And if you don't believe that the treatment will cure you then you probably shouldn't be having it!

This is my norm. I was born with a medical anomaly. I had it corrected without fuss or delay. I am an ordinary woman, but I have had an interesting life journey which I don't bore people with the details of unless it becomes relevant. End.

That is not living in fear. It's just getting on with my life.

I'm amazed people are saying they don't live in fear and don't see the relevance of if the people around them know or not ...

I was asked a while ago while at a job if I was gay (it was a casual conversation and people were talking about relationships)... I was even afraid of saying I was bi! And that is in the middle of hollywood, california... in a local culture fairly gay friendly. Trans isn't even close to where gay acceptance is, so how could anyone say they aren't afraid of people knowing their trans status?

The day you can say you are trans as casually and without question as you can say you are male or female is the day you can say you aren't afraid. If you pause for a second and worry about what the reaction of those around you might be (or how it will make you feel, such as uncomfortable or exposed or whatever else), then you are still living in fear.

If you still want to say you aren't afraid... please tell me where you live! I might consider moving there someday!

A community does not need to be 'Big' to be 'Strong'. Sometimes, even a 'Single Person' can make a difference.

Ariel I got your point and you are correct. Though the others' points are noteworthy too.

Technically, we should not try to 'Hide' ourselves. What we are, are what we are! But why boast around? And yes! No man says anyone that... 'Hey! I'm a man!' No woman says anyone that... 'Hey! I'm a woman!' Besides, when we call upon 'Trans' people, I completely dislike the concept of considering them as a different 'Gender' than the normal 'Male' & 'Female'. This 'Trans' thing is only for the community to join, discuss, and work together. However, for the rest of the world, we should be considered as normal 'Males' and 'Females'... though born with some dysfunctional body, and now cured. Getting 'Trans' as our Gender/Sex gives the appeal that we are 'Different', which is not required. It is not stealth. It is just treating Gender/Sex like any other normal human being does. Just consider yourself what you are... like either male or female... whatever you are.

But yes, some people are always highly motivated to help others. Those people become activists, and they need to expose themselves to others that they are Transgenders.

Some people have fear, and some not. But I'll say here, fear is not entirely bad thing. This 'Hiding' thing actually helps sometimes. It is not necessary to tell someone something he/she does not like. Sometimes people want to accept, and compromise, but their mind have very low tolerance for such thing, and they dislike that no matter what. For example, a female can feel high 'Jealousy' for the ex of her husband, even though she knows how much he loves her, and he has no feeling for his ex anymore. If her husband, for some reason, would tell her about his past sexual experiences with his ex, she would never like it. Hiding things that cause negative mental response to the listener is more like 'Idiotic'.

It is so sad that our societies (all across the globe) have negative feelings for people with 'Non-normative' sexual orientations. Some of them don't actually 'Hate' us, but have other negative feelings then - like Fear (of destroying the social system, or functional morality, or their religious believes), Sadness (for being Perverts), or some other negative emotions. Though many things have changed in last few decades, there is still much to be done to actually bring the desired changes, and help the world learn all about LGBT Psychology and Philosophy. To be honest, most of us ourselves don't know who we 'Truly' are. How can we explain others than? Lot of research is still required on the topic.

I just joined this board, and I really like this place. I will be contributing more here.

I hope this helps.

Zakfar.

Quote from: Rabbit on April 13, 2011, 01:10:31 AM
I'm amazed people are saying they don't live in fear and don't see the relevance of if the people around them know or not ...

I was asked a while ago while at a job if I was gay (it was a casual conversation and people were talking about relationships)... I was even afraid of saying I was bi! And that is in the middle of hollywood, california... in a local culture fairly gay friendly. Trans isn't even close to where gay acceptance is, so how could anyone say they aren't afraid of people knowing their trans status?

The day you can say you are trans as casually and without question as you can say you are male or female is the day you can say you aren't afraid. If you pause for a second and worry about what the reaction of those around you might be (or how it will make you feel, such as uncomfortable or exposed or whatever else), then you are still living in fear.

If you still want to say you aren't afraid... please tell me where you live! I might consider moving there someday!

In many parts of the UK you could.

However you are missing one point, which is that as I said the SRS is supposed to be a cure. Thus once done you are no longer strictly Trans. I have indeed admitted to having undergone the surgery on many occasions in precisely the casual way that you propose.

And no I genuinely do not feel that my past is always relevant, but if you choose not to accept my point of view and prefer to live in a perpetual trans security bubble that is of course your right.

Quote from: rejennyrated on April 13, 2011, 02:32:34 AM

And no I genuinely do not feel that my past is always relevant,

To a society that judges you (if they knew) and the rest of us (many without the option of passing)... and for those who are judged because society does not know what we are capable of being... it is relevant.

*shrug* I don't tell people either though. I'm afraid. I just want to avoid trouble for as long as I'm here... I don't really care about society after my life ends.

I have been 'on this side of the fence' since 1974, age 24, initially "deep stealth" for 15 or 20 years and "semi-stealth" since and I will share my thoughts on the matter.

From earliest childhood pretty much everybody knew I was "different" - there was no hiding it! By the beginning of public school, I was fighting against being miss-gendered and being difficult about it. By puberty I was trying to find medical help and to avoid being institutionalized for 'my delusion' and by my mid teens I was actively trying to educate doctors (and others) about a condition known as transsexualism and to force open doors to treatment and acceptance.

I was never interested in girls (except as friends), never dated, never married, and fought for understanding of the difference between transsexual and Gay. I lived part time en femme, whenever I could, when it was totally unacceptable and illegal (if found out), and couldn't pass as a boy even when trying. I was "out", I was militant, I was vocal, and I was pushy (to the medical establishment). In most cases, I was the first transsexual that most doctors and/or clinics had ever seen and usually educated the medics in return for treatment (or at least consideration).

By my early 20s my strength was pretty much gone - I had fought as long and as hard as I could and my fate lay in the hands of others. Thankfully by then there were others, two doctors in particular, who had come to see the necessity for medical (surgical) support and, thanks to them, I found my escape, thought it cost me everything I had - money, family, friends - that's just the way it was back then.

After SRS/transition, I didn't care about "the fight" - I had done my part and it nearly cost me my life. I hung around the 'gender clinic' (that I had helped establish) for a short time, just long enough for them to see the changes (at which they were astounded) and then the highest priority (for me) was to get on with my life - THAT is what the whole war had been about - being able to live a normal life.

I never had any fear of being outed - I just wanted to be left alone to make my own way, just as any other girl, and the only time my medical history was ever a concern was medically (where it could effect my health) or if a relationship was becoming serious. My medical history DID become gossip (as a result of a demented clinic worker) but I was firmly entrenched in my community and it had little effect. I was so comfortable and accepted in my new life that the rumours were dismissed as untenable. Now, after 37 years, many of my closest friends know a little (or a lot) about my childhood and it doesn't bother me because I know who and what I am and they simply can't imagine me any other way (not that I ever was any different!). It is pretty much a non-issue.

I fought in the war, I was there to liberate the beaches, I did my part, and I feel no obligation to return to the fray, thank you very much. The war I fought was to live a normal life, not "life with an asterisk"! If someone feels I owe some continuing obligation to the cause ..... TOUGH!  ;)

HEY ARIEL  if your so into being out where is your picture for this site?

I am basically stealth (legally) too but i have also camped out at the US capital for 23 days and nights for trans inclusion in ENDA in may 2002 and i had congressional staffers ask me why i was there trying to help THOSE PEOPLE  i said because i am one of them and they said OH ..

being out everywhere is sticking your face in other peoples business and we just need acceptence and not special treatment.

Just an aside - I can think of several very visible transpeople who pass well - Andrea Jacobs, Calpurnia Addams, Lynn Conway, Isis King, etc. I don't think the public's image of us is due to lack of passable/attractive transpeople. The image of the prostitute or man in a dress is just a lot more appetizing. The same as the public cherishes the image of the young black male deviant.

As the general sentiment seems to be, I'm not stealth, but private.  I see no reason to tell the cashier at the local grocery store my medical history.  If they ask, it's not their business.  If a close friend asks, pointedly, I may tell them as they can be trusted, but that's different.  Were I not in a long term relationship I would disclose to any lovers, because if they got freaked out, why would I want to sleep with them anyways?
It's not a matter of hiding, but of whose business it is.

I'm not transgender but I'm total stealth with the exception of family members who I'm not in contact with other then bumping into them now and then. I'm stealth for a lot of reasons most important one being I don't want another human to know what I am, outside of the internet, but in r/l no way.  I can understand why it would benefit others if I was 'out there' showing the world an IS person is a living breathing normal human being just like the gay community has done over the years and we can see how society has more or less accepted them as normal people and not the deviants or freaks that they were accused of generations ago.  So I can see Ariel's point clearly but I agree with everyone who says its my life and I'll share what I want to share and keep private what I want to keep private.  Its another long road but I can see one or two generations from now TG will be openly accepted no problem.

About me not being transgender, after reading the discussion Juliet started , maybe I am I don't know.  hahahaha
But I haven't transitioned so I don't how I could be, but whatever.

I have read an a lot of comments and thought i should post.  I am currently stealth, however my family knows, and my old friends which were truly trustworthy and they tell no one. 

Living in stealth doesn't mean you stop helping the community.  Its like two divisions of a military branch, the main infantry force and special/covert ops.  You can both do your part to promote acceptance of TS as just another thing you deal with when your born. 

Here is an example: 
After watching the oprah network and saw the documentary on TS persons by Lisa Ling, the conversation in the lunchroom was this topic.  One girl believed it was a choice, so i innocently placed facts before her that stated otherwise, not using myself as references but other materials i had read, and did it in a fashion that my didn't really raise an eyebrow in my direction, i was simply adding information to the whole, by the time i was finished all women at lunch were in agreement it was not a choice. 

People are more trusting if they don't think your an outsider, and if i was openly TS would my comments had been taken to heart? or would they have assumed i was bias or whatever or simply not wanting to hear them?  there are many possibilities but that method hurt no one and still made a positive change. 

Also, i don't know how many stories i have heard of TS women who meet straight guys and are instantly rejected no matter how good they look because they tell them right away they are TS, and how many stories of straight men that have married TS women saying if she had told me up front, i wouldn't have even dated her. 

I just want this comment to ring out:

Living in stealth doesn't mean you are hiding who you are from anyone, it means you simply don't let having TS overshadow who you are and what you accomplish.  When we say we are TS women or men, we are giving the word TS equal footing with the word woman and man, saying we are both a woman/man and TS... However, i am not a TS woman, I am a woman that simply has TS.  I am a woman first and foremost and my struggles and accomplishments in life are in spite of me living with TS which gives me a disadvantage in society.

Wow, this is an interesting post so here's my two cents worth. Everyone has their reason to be stealth and I respect that. The only people who know that I'm trans are my wife, son, his girlfriend, a few friends, and a couple of folks outside my circle. My brother and sister don't know because I don't feel the need to share this with them.

The main point is when I'm out to people, I'm out. Nothing can make me go back in the closet. I don't worry what others think or say. I'm living my life.


Gennee  

As a woman formerly afflicted with the transsexual medical condition, I came to view it as a debilitating disease, although now thankfully cured.  As such, I see no need to go around putting qualifiers on myself as being other, more, or less than just a woman.  I could say, well, any "trans" term no longer applies to me in any case, but thanks to the visibility of certain elements as has been mentioned, the majority of the unenlightened public-at-large draw no such fine distinction.  I live my life as the woman I am, call it stealth if you like. Other than coming here to share my experiences with others, my doctor and a couple close friends know, but that's the extent of my being "out" and is likely to become even less so as time goes on.  You want sad? Sad was me before I was cured,  not after.

I know there are many of us, pre-op and post-op alike, who do not care to be singled out because of the fact we were born with a particularly insidious birth defect.  The whole point, to me, of paying all this money and going through all this pain to fully transition was to move forward into a happy life freed specifically from the pains, miseries, and heartaches of the past that were a direct result of the aforementioned disease.  The point wasn't to adopt being transsexual as a permanent alternative lifestyle.

I must say I don't align myself with those more rabidly militant activists who insist on turning the whole gender identity issue into some kind of culture war in yet another tired version of "us" vs. "them", with all the associated endless, mean-spirited, sniping and in-fighting, remarkably as divisive as this thread was sure to be when it was posted.  But neither do I care to be associated in the eyes of the general public with certain fetishist elements who quite frankly creep me out. Fear has little to do with it.

If someone wants to identify as TS/TG, or be out and proud and in everyone's face with it, or even if they only want to quietly slip on a pair of the wife's panties over the weekend to get more in touch with their feminine sides, then hey, that's their privilege and their right and I wholeheartedly support that right.  But I shouldn't have to be automatically expected, because of my medical history or because I do support that right, to feel somehow obliged to be permanently associated with a disease I've already been cured of.

Yes I tend to agree to that too.

I have an ilness now I am cured and the only people to know are those who knew me before

It is not stealth for me just being a Woman and living my life

This discussion and others like it have been going on for ages.  Just recently a thread has been resurrected called Living In Stealth - Does It Hurt Us? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6844.0.html).  Which is the same topic we are discussing now.

It will be interesting to go through this particular thread and see what others have written before us.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Quote from: espo on April 13, 2011, 11:37:03 AM
About me not being transgender, after reading the discussion Juliet started , maybe I am I don't know.  hahahaha
But I haven't transitioned so I don't how I could be, but whatever.

LOL
Apparently my dog is transgender according to that discussion.  :laugh:

Quote from: Sarah B on April 13, 2011, 04:30:28 PM
This discussion and others like it have been going on for ages.  Just recently a thread has been resurrected called Living In Stealth - Does It Hurt Us? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6844.0.html).  Which is the same topic we are discussing now.

It will be interesting to go through this particular thread and see what others have written before us.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Wow sarah I found that thread you listed to be very interesting... Yes it definitely mirrors this one unintentionally lol. A true standalone complex. It seems  the originator of that thread almost exactly mirrored my thoughts which I find interesting... I actually quote that post here cuase it mirrors my concerns and presents a first hand account of the things I describe happening. Those that can pass disappear into society and thereby the rest of us are left to fend for our own...

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 21, 2006, 12:40:57 PM
I was at a TS support meeting last Sunday.  A girl there who is living in stealth was bothered by her stealth status.  She described herself as an activist but found that she had recently adopted a stealth lifestyle because she feared the reaction of her coworkers.  And this was becoming a big problem for her.  She said she never imagined she'd choose stealth over helping us achieve social progress.  That she was doing just this was weighing heavily on her mind.   

When I began therapy my therapist told me of this group.  She had started the group but had since handed it to an active TS to head it up.  But she told me something that I vividly remember.

When I started the group there were many girls there who passed easily.  Some I thought were natal females and was thinking of asking them to leave as this was intended to be a TS only support group.  I was glad I didn't because, to my surprise, they were transsexual.  What saddened me was when these ladies started to leave the group.  The reason they cited was they wanted to live in stealth and didn't want to be associated with being a transsexual.  This created a problem because the girls remaining in the group badly needed those women to stay involved so they could gain learn from their experience.

I can see her point.  While we are coming out and into public we need support and encouragement.  Much of that comes from those who have successfully transitioned.  But if those who can live in stealth remain invisible, where will that support come from?  If they remain in stealth, society will never know how many of us there are out there and that we are just normal everyday people.  Instead they will see the Jerry Springer kind of crap that has hurt our efforts so badly.

I'm not an active activist but I do consider myself a passive activist.  I won't go out and start groups or volunteer to do all kinds of work to help promote the cause.  That's not in my personality.  But when I'm asked I will gladly present to them whatever they need to know to help them understand we are just normal people trying to find happiness during our time here on earth. 

If I am out in public doing everyday things, I won't go up to everyone I see and tell them I'm trans.  But if I see them look at me funny I will make a point of smiling politely and even saying hi if the situation presents itself.  I feel I have an obligation to the next generation to do at least that.  It's not much but at least it's something.  But if I ever pass completely I hope I never go stealth.  That would be like turning my back on all those who helped me get where I am and all those who are hoping for a better life.

Maybe we need a term for it... I think I got one... "Passing into Stealth"

• If everyone that could go stealth is going there and won't break from stealth (for whatever reason) how can we ever expect to stand up for our own rights?
• How can we make it so that future generations don't have to suffer as much as we did?
• Should it be left only to the "activists" everyone speaks of, to fix everything?
• When will we all say enough is enough?
• When will we not need to be stealth anymore if everyone is in stealth?
• Could we have already fixed things had we never had people in stealth?

• Or should we content ourselves that merely seamlessly becoming a part of a society that discriminates against people like us is okay?
• Do we then become part of the problem by living stealth in this society and allowing others to hurt the next generation? Is being stealth selfish?
• Are we sacrificing future generations for our own safety?

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on April 13, 2011, 05:20:48 AM
HEY ARIEL  if your so into being out where is your picture for this site?

I am basically stealth (legally) too but i have also camped out at the US capital for 23 days and nights for trans inclusion in ENDA in may 2002 and i had congressional staffers ask me why i was there trying to help THOSE PEOPLE  i said because i am one of them and they said OH ..

being out everywhere is sticking your face in other peoples business and we just need acceptence and not special treatment.

Umm you do realize that you can't customize your pics till you have 15 posts right???
Though tbh for forums I normally use this as my forum post avatar..
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vgcraft.net%2Fcustomavatars%2Favatar2_2.gif&hash=1d6c104f1a617bd94574f8cb53f0ce064686bdfc)

I am not afraid to show my face however even if the pic is 5+ years old and me with unplucked eyebrows....
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-snc4%2F41382_779320248_1947_n.jpg&hash=d7da9112f4df5258d23d03de8ca6ffd0a590e080)
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=779320248 (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=779320248)
http://www.myspace.com/from_ariel (http://www.myspace.com/from_ariel)
<-- Jump to 3min 34sec to hear my call.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQhu0bX5gE#t=3m34)

^ Yeah most definitely NOT Stealth...

IMHO I pass far better now I need newer pictures that was early in my transition. I started transition about 6-8 years ago now.

Transition in oct 03, HRT in oct of '04 and Fulltime on the job in Mar of '06 that pic is roughly from '06

i really dont like the assumption that just because your stealth you do nothing to advance TS rights.  I do plenty influencing those around me in subtle ways and help those people that needed it anonymously without the rest of the world needing to know i am have been born with TS as well.  I have been asked on many occasions to talk with people thinking they are TS and could use advice or guidance, just because i don't do it publicly advertising i am TS doesn't mean i am not useful,  I do my part. 

Living with TS and transitioning is not my goal in life, nor is progressing any agenda although i do influence people within my circles, i want my own life, and people knowing i was born TS would complicate that life and make my future goals a little more difficult to reach then they need to be.

Goodness

That was so profound and how real opinions are changed thank you Valerie.

I too transitioned in an incredile male enviroment who cared little for binary this or that or anything remotely mentioned in this site

I turned opinions and now even the most masculine of them call me miss, her or by name even though they all know my past

That to me is doing my part, they see a Woman just living her life

QuoteShouldn't we be able to stand up for our rights?

Yes.  So do those who choose to live stealth.
As has been said, it's not anybody else's business. I don't think it's anybody else's place to question the choices of others or to assume they know the reasons.

I'm sorry i understand what others are saying and yet I don't get the comments of "I've done my part now I can live free"

IMHO as long as there is a need in this society to be stealth we are not ever free.
As long as others around us are still suffering we are not free.
Stealth to me just seems to be trading one cage for another.

As long as our brothers and sisters still suffer and this is treated as anything different then a medical condition one we DID NOT choose one that needs proper research and treatment, I will still cry for the next generation's pain. I know that we are second class citizens and am not going to try and assimilate into a society that thinks elsewise. No thank you. I will not pretend to be one of them just to avoid mis-treatment.

Cause seeing how society treats us makes me sick. The last thing I want is to be hiding amongst wolves when I know my fellow sheep are being eaten for dinner tonight.

I'm not an activist either cause I don't really have the means or ability but I do try to share and get others to think.

I hope this discussion continues to evolve and create dialog. Some seem to be very, very heated about their reasons for their choices. I suppose that is only natural.

I dream of a day when we need to fear someone finding out we're trans no more then to fear someone finding out we're Diabetic. I'm just not sure how we will ever get there with so many in deep stealth. I don't think anyone on this site could be fully called deep stealth cause obviously they are still contributing in some way.

I wonder though. I feel the same powerlessness. I feel that our numbers are too small to change things for all of us. Thing is the more I look at updated reviews of studies that seems to indicate we may be as common as 1 in 2500 to 1 in 500 then I have to say to myself "That is not a small number". Where are they? Are they in stealth? Are we more powerful then even we know because some of us are so well hidden even other trans people don't know?

it's really a non-issue, and one has to wonder if your energies wouldn't be better spent sharing your knowledge and experience with those currently in transition, which I have done and will continue to do as the opportunities arise, rather than browbeating those of us who have finished it and moved on. You seem to think that we are hiding something, and we're not. I don't see in any way my life would be any different or that I would disclose personal medical information any more so than I do now if there were no such thing as "stealth". From my point of view, there already isn't any such thing.

Your above list contains several leading questions based on preconceived assumptions that may belong solely to you. It's a bit like asking, "and how long have you been beating your wife?" There is no good answer that satisfies the premise of the question that doesn't fall into the trap of being forced to agree with the possibly erroneous base assumptions. The list fails because it already contains it's own foregone conclusions. Any refutation, as has been already excellently given by Valerie, Izumi, and others, will be rejected because it doesn't fit into this paradigm.

It's commendable that you want to help those around you that are going through the same trials in life as you are. But there are others ways than those you so vehemently espouse here, and I can't see that this kind of rhetoric solves any real problems; It just seems to create more divisiveness. I sincerely wish you good luck in your endeavors.

Valerie I loved your answer!

QuoteI'm sorry i understand what others are saying and yet I don't get the comments of "I've done my part now I can live free"

IMHO as long as there is a need in this society to be stealth we are not ever free.
As long as others around us are still suffering we are not free.
Stealth to me just seems to be trading one cage for another.

And just HOW does someone coming out of stealth help others????

Back in the 1970s when SRS first became available, it was PRECISELY the fact that post-ops vanished that PROVED the effectiveness of medical treatment, that the statement "I am a woman trapped in a man's body" was true in that these women just vanished into mainstream society without causing a ripple! To stand up and say "I have a transsexual medical history" accomplishes nothing and may even have the effect of undermining the presumption that transsexualism can be cured because it implies "I am not a woman". Think about it!

No one seems to understand me.

I'm not trying to "brow beat" anyone. Anyone that feels that needs to look inside not at me cause that's not my intent and if you really feel that it was then I'm just lousy at expressing myself.

My entire point is many of our most successful and pretty and most able to live normal lives are hidden form both society and our community and how can we ever expect to be recognized when we are invisible to the world and public at large.

I can't make it more clear then that I don't know how? This is not a judgement nor is it saying it's their FUALT! I have said over and over I UNDERSTAND why people go into stealth, I don't blame them. But in the end we are an invisible population of sufferers and today another child was born likely that will suffer everything we did. If they are lucky enough to be pretty and passable then they might go stealth too.

I just want a world where stealth is no more necessary then hiding that your nearsighted or diabetic or any other congenital medical condition. I just wonder if everyone is in stealth and wont come out how we will ever get to that day?

Obviously people take offense they feel I'm blaming people in stealth. I am not, I have said like a hundred times I blame society stealth should not be necessary but sadly it is.


I'm sad and I'm depressed and Fairy I do try to help. I admin on, transgenderbeauty, I offer people support in chat and I try to change things. Sadly I can't even fix myself. I will likely NEVER afford surgery for reasons I won't get into here. I will never pass 100% I will never be able to be stealth if I wanted to. I will however be taking all the slings and arrows every-time I walk down the street thrown by a society that doesn't understand us.

I won't post anymore cuase obviously people are taking it in the wrong light. I will however read what others feel and say. Clearly people think I'm blaming them or deomonizing them and I'm not. I would never want to. If you really think I am then obviously I just suck at this and shouldn't try to express myself cause that wasn't my intention.

Bye.

Quote from: Northern Jane on April 14, 2011, 05:12:33 PM
And just HOW does someone coming out of stealth help others????

The same way that gay rights moved forward as they began coming out more and more. It is a lot easier to label a group of people perverts and deviants when you believe you don't actually have any around you. But when you discover that they are people you have known and seen your entire life and they have simply been hiding and scared... things start to move forward.

I agree that the thread title is a wrong and misleading. Speaking personally as a person who has lived in 'Stealth' for 20 odd years, to me this is certainly NOT a tragedy nor do I live in fear. Were I 'out and proud' then I certainly wouldn't have the career in IT Management that I have nor would I have the same relationships with friends and colleagues that I enjoy today. To me being able to to go to work, go shopping and do all the other things ordinary women do unhindered is a pleasure, normal and certainly isn't tragic.
The sad fact is that being different from society in general marks you out and can often be dangerous as we see and hear so often here or in the press.
And I'm one of those people who lost most of her family and old friends during transition, but I really no longer worry about that. It's their loss not mine. Maybe it's that, that's shaped who I am today.

Ariel, I disagree that the transgender community is being misrepresented by at least the lack of passing transwomen. 

Calpernia, Isis King and Chloe Prince come in mind, and I have seen others in TV shows that looked passing (one example from an Oprah show of a lesbian couple where one was a transwoman and they both had a child from the banked sperm from the transwoman before she transitioned.)

Quote from: Sarah Louise on April 12, 2011, 06:34:55 PM
Many of us "living in stealth" are not doing so out of fear, but doing so because we just want to live our life without unnecessarily broadcasting to everyone about us.

Its really none of their business.

Thankyouverymuch Sarah Louise!

Living stealth is hardly sad or a tragedy in my book, because I didn't transition and get my surgery 13 years ago to live as a TRANSSEXUAL, I did it to live out my life as a WOMAN thankyouverymuch!

Anyone who thinks it's sad and tragic to do that has an agenda radically different from my own.

Amy

I think I understand what you mean Ariel, you don't give a judgement to it.
You dont blame the stealth people, I know, that's not the issue.

I know for myself I was lucky, in my time they didn't do frs, you could get hrt and srs.
I'm gratefull to pass, really, it has given me opportunities to get a carreer, relationships and no discrimination based on looks.

I wanted to be a woman and I became a woman, I didn't want the looks of genitalies of a woman, no, I wanted to be lived as a woman.
I have the live as a woman and I'm glad with it.
I don't live in fear, if anyone would ask for it, I won't lie, but I don't advertize with it, sorry that doesn't make sense to me.
Now I have the live I wanted, why would I change this?
I never keeped it as a secret when I met someone in a romantically way, I've always telled the truth, giving people the choice to deal with it or leave.

I'm here because of my past, I know the feeling and struggling of the people who wants to transition and I hope I can contribute to them because of my expirience.
If you want a world with no discrimination( what I think is a lovely tought) I have to disappoint you.
There are always people with several reasons to exclude others,  some for hate, some because of their religion.

There is some change in the way people look at tg's compare to the days when I was in transition, it goes slowly but there is some move.
We can't change the opinions that some other people may have about tg's, but we can change the way we handle with it.
We can ignore their comments, really ignore by not taking it personally, they have their toughts, I have mine, so be it.

If you think I'm living in stealth maybe you're right but I'm feeling good with it and btw, this is my real name and real photo, so there is not so much to hide for me.


hugs
Annette

Quote from: From_Ariel on April 14, 2011, 05:28:18 PM
No one seems to understand me.

I'm not trying to "brow beat" anyone. Anyone that feels that needs to look inside not at me cause that's not my intent and if you really feel that it was then I'm just lousy at expressing myself.

My entire point is many of our most successful and pretty and most able to live normal lives are hidden form both society and our community and how can we ever expect to be recognized when we are invisible to the world and public at large.

I respect your intended message, but your original post DOES tell people not to cut off their families in an attempt to live in stealth, it says that we lie, and it says that living stealth is unhealthy. You also accuse stealth trans people of "reinforcing the same stereotypes that cause the discrimination in the first place on us all." In other words, we are actively contributing to the discrimination practiced by bigots who truly hate us? Ouch.

Regardless of your intent, some of what you say is unkind, some is unfair (I know, waaah), and some is untrue.

I would say that people should do what they are comfortable with, when they are comfortable with it. Maybe I'll be out at some future date, but I don't think it's unhealthy for me to live in stealth now. I have enough crap to deal with, and many days I barely manage. Some days, I don't manage at all. Why would I want to add more crap to the pile while I'm still in a fairly fragile state? I honestly think that living an out life would be disastrous for my emotional health. Not everyone is cut out to be openly trans. I probably am not, but that remains to be seen.

By the way, in my community, the most "out" trans activists that I know (about half a dozen of them) are ALL people who "pass" beautifully and who started transition YEARS ago. They have had quite some time to get comfortable with their lives and themselves. And they're all pretty outgoing people in the first place. I'm sure that some of them still have significant issues, but the combination of extroversion and time is pretty powerful. I will never be like them, I don't think I'm capable of being like them, and, in fact, I don't want to be like them. I should think that my trying to be something I'm not is unhealthy--it has been for my entire life, when I was trying to live as a girl. I think I've earned a break, for Pete's sake. If some people think that's tragic, then sobeit. I don't, and I'm the one who decides, as far as I'm able, how to live my life, how to judge my life, and what I want to share with others.

Look at it this way. Two women are raped. Both go through whatever process they must to deal with the trauma and get on with their lives. One woman becomes a rape awareness activist and gives lectures and workshops. The other chooses to just live an ordinary life. One woman might find it cathartic to acknowledge or talk about her experiences in public; the other finds it exquisitely painful to discuss it with strangers. Would you say that it's a tragedy that the second woman stays silent and just wants to live her life in peace? Is it a tragedy that she isn't actively contributing to rape awareness and education of the general public? I would say that it's simply her business what she does with her life. Why should she be expected to wallow in experiences that she would find it uncomfortable or painful to dwell on?

Well, that's my take on the matter.

Actually, just living your life as a normal person is probably the best thing we can do to change hearts and minds. We are not special, we are not different we are just normal men and women albeit with unusual past histories. I'm only a year into my metamorphisis and have been living as myself for barely 4 months and apart from work (where I worked with HR to create guidelines for transition that are becoming company policy), friends and famlly i routinely interact with any number of people who have no idea and with who i choose not to divulge my past history. All i am doing is living my life, as myself...hell I can even talk about my past without lying. That said I will and do talk about myself candidly with people if the situation warrets it and i feel comfortable doing so.

Helena brought up a good point, which is that we are sometimes accused of being deceitful or lying because we choose not to divulge certain details of our pasts. I'm sure almost everyone has things in their pasts they'd rather not speak of, but somehow for us that makes us guilty of some kind of subterfuge.

I've talked about this here before, and I can do no better now than to reiterate those same thoughts:

Quote from: FairyGirl on June 09, 2010, 09:47:52 AMStill, there is nothing deceitful or lying about being who you really are, despite any birth defect. The fact that someone could even suggest that shows how very little they understand. I know there are people here who have said as much themselves, and I won't judge their subjective feelings but their ideas about themselves absolutely do not apply to me. The truth is for some of us at least that we have always been women no matter what configuration our genitals happened to be in or how we were socialized. To live then as who we really are is just the opposite of living a lie, it is admitting and living the truth. We are, as my therapist puts it, being authentic. That's about as honest as you can get.

Quote from: FairyGirl on February 21, 2010, 07:22:04 PM...we have come to the true realization that we have been female our whole lives, despite what others may have told us or thought about us at some earlier stages. It then becomes a matter of seeing ourselves as females with a unique set of life circumstances and we adjust our hindsight views accordingly. It's not a lie, a deception, or a falsehood, it is merely a perspective looking back as female to experiences that do not change the fact of who we have been all along.

I remember my first boyfriend at age 11, I remember my first kiss with a boy, I remember playing dolls and dress up and house with other little girls as a child. These are not made up fabrications, I really did those things. But I remember my childhood now from the point of view that I was female back then, even if it was a female in the wrong sort of body, not a little boy being naughty and hiding things from his parents. I may have also due to life circumstances for example been forced to wear ragged clothes or go barefoot, but that doesn't change the fact of who it was that experienced those things. For me it was a little girl, as suppressed as she may have had to be for necessity's sake or for sheer survival in a hostile environment. It is not a lie or deception when I tell you that Chloe experienced those things, because I did.

Maybe we put too much emphasis on "changing", on "transition", on being entirely one thing and then suddenly becoming entirely something else where we have something to hide. Hey, I didn't just wake up one morning as an adult and decide, "well damn, I think I'm female now." I have always been a girl, a young woman, an adult women. I do share experiences with other women because I did those things. Maybe not all of them and maybe not as much, but that repressed little girl came out every single chance she got, and from the perspective of an adult woman I can see it was her who was always REAL; it was the pretend person who was the lie and the deception. I have no reason to remind everyone I meet that anyone other than that real person ever existed. Of course I can if I want to or if I think it will help others in the same or similar situation, but it's not being dishonest if I don't.

Like any medical condition, some sufferers made their cause to educate and fight for the right of the sufferer. Good for them, we need them, but not anybody wants or can fulfill that role.
A friend of mine was borne with six fingers in each hand. when he  was 19 yo he got them cut. Now he has just a minor scar in each hand, and he does not like to talk about. When people ask him, he dismiss as an accident. I see my external genital as an accident, correction in progress. When finish, there would be nothing to talk about.

To each his own, the pursuit of happiness, yes? I loud for your efforts to fight for our rights!

Peace,

Kate

I post again becuse I feel some of the below was a attack on me personally as opposed to on the discussion at hand and I will defend myself.

Quote from: Arch on April 15, 2011, 08:22:11 PM
I respect your intended message, but your original post DOES tell people not to cut off their families in an attempt to live in stealth, it says that we lie, and it says that living stealth is unhealthy. You also accuse stealth trans people of "reinforcing the same stereotypes that cause the discrimination in the first place on us all." In other words, we are actively contributing to the discrimination practiced by bigots who truly hate us? Ouch.

Regardless of your intent, some of what you say is unkind, some is unfair (I know, waaah), and some is untrue.

and some people just don't want to hear becuase they don't want to accept there's possibly truth in it?

I'm sorry if you see it as unkind or unfair but you don't always have to like something someone says that doesn't mean I'm doing this to insult anyone... So I quote myself..

Quote"Stealth" is when you do not reveal to anyone that you were ever born differently then you are today. Although the argument can be made that yes they/you always were girls, the argument can also be made that they were always girls but had to pretend to live as boys for a time. Persons in stealth / deep stealth will never allow their "secret" to be found out by friends and coworkers for fear of reprisal. Persons in stealth will also make little white and huge whopper lies to cover for themselves. Those in "Deep-Stealth" often move away from friends and family they have known for years sometimes never even telling them of their transition so that they can hide their secret completely. Thus some friends and family that might have still loved them even after transition are lost and the person is lost to their family. Possibly leaving family members that care very much behind and they will never see them again.

Notice I italicized the words from my original post that clearly indicate this is some or often but not all...

I do not disagree that I wholeheartedly implore others not to give up on their families before they can even find out if their family is loving and or accepting or not. I don't disagree. I think stealth should not be a substitution for being afraid to come out trans.

Quote
I also want to say I don't blame those that prefer to live in stealth for this. I understand all to well the fears of discrimination, but how can we ever end discrimination if our greatest successes are all in hiding? How can we be taken seriously? It is so sad that when people live in stealth for their own sake they are actually reinforcing those same stereotypes that cause the discrimination in the first place on us all.

Discrimination is real. It is a risk we all face and so is reprisal. If your trans and you're never afraid then there's something wrong with you. Fear protects us and makes us vigilant against dangers. Also, people seem to miss the fact that I am pointing out "..OUR GREATEST SUCCESSES..." above. I am saying that some of our most successful members of our group are in hiding and society and our own community will never know that we have so many brilliant successful skilled and wonderful people amongst our number. I ask "how can we be taken seriously" and that is a valid question if they don't know us how can society take us seriously?

QuoteNo one should have to live in "Stealth". No one should have to fear they will be hurt or mistreated if it is found out they were born with a different letter on their birth certificate then now. And IMHO admitting that you were born with a physical sex that doesn't match your true gender identity does not undermine or lessen who you are. A person I knew used to say "I'm a woman with a very unusual medical history". That if anything is true of all of us....

I make the argument that stealth needs to eventually go away just like how being in the closet has largely faded from those that are gay. Even then it is not perfect as my gay brother says "everyday you are constantly either making the decision to be in or out sometimes you have to no matter what you'd like, but I try to be myself and not care who judges me as often as I can, safely." We need to start working on ways to get out of the closet out of stealth. Noone should have to feel forced to be in stealth. Nor should anyone fear being "found out" someday we will be able to walk without anyone thinking less of us for being trans then being nearsighted or diabetic or gay.


Stealth is a reality forced upon us by society.
We can choose to be proud though and it does help us all.
My point is that stealth inherently involves by it's very nature lies.
These lies are not healthy to the whole of our community if we want people to better understand us.
Our most passable and normal and successful members of our society are often ones in stealth.
The rest of society doesn't realize that transgender persons can be that successful or passable cause they will never knowingly meet these people.
I have also stated that anyone on support networks like this can't truly be called fully stealth as they are obviously trying to help.
Can you say stealth does not reinforce a gender binary stereotype?


Are you saying persons in stealth don't lie to cover their story?
Can even one person whom is stealth claim not to have lied ever to hide it?
Aside from lies of omission how often must you make things up to pretend they were always girls / boys etc.

You make it as if I have done something wrong by pointing out that stealth inherently involves lies. You cannot be stealth without some lies sometimes.

---

Perhaps people that are claiming they don't lie need to read the definitions of lie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie)
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lie (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lie)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie%5B3%5D (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie%5B3%5D)

Lying by omission

One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. An example is when the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service. Propaganda is an example of lying by omission.

Misleading/dissembling

A misleading statement is one where there is no outright lie, but still retains the purpose of getting someone to believe in an untruth. "Dissembling" likewise describes the presentation of facts in a way that is literally true, but intentionally misleading.

Noble lie

A noble lie is one that would normally cause discord if uncovered, but offers some benefit to the liar and assists in an orderly society, therefore, potentially beneficial to others. It is often told to maintain law, order and safety.

Contextual lie

One can state part of the truth out of context, knowing that without complete information, it gives a false impression. Likewise, one can actually state accurate facts, yet deceive with them. To say "Yeah, that's right, I ate all the white chocolate, by myself." utilizing a sarcastic, offended tone, may cause the listener to assume the speaker did not mean what he said, when in fact he did.

---

lie (plural lies)
    A deliberately false statement; an intentional falsehood.
    A statement intended to deceive, even if literally true; a half-truth

lie (third-person singular simple present lies, present participle lying, simple past and past participle lied)
    (intransitive) To give false information intentionally.
    (intransitive) To convey a false image or impression.

Definition of LIE
1 

• a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive
• b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker

2 : something that misleads or deceives

Definition of LIE
1
: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2
: to create a false or misleading impression

Be yourself!
Those that Matter don't Mind.
Those that Mind don't Matter.
--Ariel

When I read that after this entire discourse about honesty - particularly the end section about lying - I laughed so hard that I shot the milk I was having with my Honey Smacks through my nose.

You didn't write that.  Dr. Seuss did.  Pot, meet kettle.

clearly indicate this is some or often but not all...
In formal writing - like you are attempting - crap words like that are referred to as weasel words for precisely the reason you are using them and defending them.  They are purposely vague and unsubstantiated.  They are used to confer a veneer of authority when none exists.  Which is also lying as you can't provide any real (i.e. truthful) data to back yourself up, you're merely pretending its there and trying to fool the reader.

Fortunately I don't have a problem with lying because if I think you're going to make my life more painful then f u.

I really think this thread has run its course.  Anytime this subject is attempted it ends up in hurt feelings and anger.

Each side of this issue is very dogmatic in defense and sometimes insuliting of each other.

This is the only warning I will give.

Tone it down or this will be locked.

Sarah L.

Quote from: From_Ariel on April 18, 2011, 06:13:10 AM
I post again becuse I feel some of the below was a attack on me personally as opposed to on the discussion at hand and I will defend myself.

There were no personal attacks in the quoted message. Just disagreement with your views. Whether intended or not, you do seem to be passing some harsh judgment on those who are stealth.

Quote from: tekla on April 18, 2011, 07:43:23 AM
Be yourself!
Those that Matter don't Mind.
Those that Mind don't Matter.
--Ariel

When I read that after this entire discourse about honesty - particularly the end section about lying - I laughed so hard that I shot the milk I was having with my Honey Smacks through my nose.

You didn't write that.  Dr. Seuss did.  Pot, meet kettle.

clearly indicate this is some or often but not all...
In formal writing - like you are attempting - crap words like that are referred to as weasel words for precisely the reason you are using them and defending them.  They are purposely vague and unsubstantiated.  They are used to confer a veneer of authority when none exists.  Which is also lying as you can't provide any real (i.e. truthful) data to back yourself up, you're merely pretending its there and trying to fool the reader.

There is no human being alive that hasn't lied intentionally or not that includes me. I didn't know where it came from tbh a coworker used to hang it on their office pod (uncredited)  I liked it and I use it... as for the -- Ariel It's my signature of course my signature is going to contain my name at the end. Many quotes are re quoted as used by secondary sources and I do find that quote an empowering one.. So I use it, but I will correct it thank you for your education even if the tone of your correction did seem a little condescending to me.

OPPPS looks like your judgement might have been a bit to fast on me and whilst looking up to see if you were right I found this...

QuoteThose who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
        Bernard Baruch in response to a question by Igor Cassini as to how he handled the seating arrangements at his dinner parties, as quoted in Shake Well Before Using: A New Collection of Impressions and Anecdotes Mostly Humorous (1948) by Bennett Cerf, p. 249; the full response was "I never bother about that. Those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter." This anecdote is also quoted online at Chiasmus.com. It has also become part of a larger expression, which has been commonly attributed to Dr. Seuss, even in print, but without citation of a specific work: "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

In other words many people have credited Dr. Suess with that quote but not one written or first hand account of the man using it has been found... However it was found used in a book in 1948 even so that version doesn't have the be yourself part so meh I'll keep it as is.

Quote from: espo on April 18, 2011, 08:42:20 AM
Fortunately I don't have a problem with lying because if I think you're going to make my life more painful then f u.

^ Not sure how that relates to the conversation nor how I am making anyone's life uncomfortable. The last part of your sentence is completely unnecessary.

Once you start resorting to insults, you've officially lost the argument.

Ariel, you're succeeding very well at something that you say you're trying not to do.

QuoteNo one seems to understand me.

I'm not trying to "brow beat" anyone. Anyone that feels that needs to look inside not at me cause that's not my intent and if you really feel that it was then I'm just lousy at expressing myself.

First of all, you consistently say that you don't understand the people who are disagreeing with you, even though they usually present their view pretty clearly. Then you say that nobody understands YOU, even though your posts clearly send mixed messages. Seems a bit like a double standard to me.

You have claimed that you're not judging or browbeating. But I pointed out some places where your INTENT was obviously contradicted by your actual statements: regardless of what you say is your intent, you were clearly being judgmental and/or browbeating. And then you play the same old broken record of "Oh, but I don't INTEND to piss people off!"

Hon, maybe it's time to recognize that this is a sensitive issue, and people ARE a bit ticked off, partly because of your hidden assumptions and partly because you essentially say one thing and do another--regardless of what you meant to do. It happens sometimes. People aren't always consistent. But please don't pretend that you're not doing it when it's so clear that you are. That's either deluded...or dishonest.

One final point about honesty, and then I'll shut up. You define a lie by omission as "omitting an important fact." There's a huge "hidden" assumption here, that YOU get to decide what is "important" for other people's lives. You've decided for all the rest of us that it's important for all of us to be out. You appear to be saying that all stealth or semi-stealth persons of transsexual history are liars when they do not immediately tell anybody and everybody about their past.

I really do not think it's important for everyone to know about my background, any more than I feel compelled to inform every stranger on the street that I had ear surgery at age five, that I have an older brother living in another state, that I like anal sex, or that I masturbated three times before breakfast the other day.

And I'm deeply, deeply offended that you have omitted to tell me important facts about YOUR life, like your place of birth, what you had for dinner last Sunday, your most intimate sexual practices, and every little thing that I have decided important but that you didn't think was my business.

I think it will be a good thing if somebody locks this thread. Since I'm in the middle of it, I sure as heck can't do it.

P.S. Okay, one more thing.

Quote from: From_Ariel on April 14, 2011, 04:23:43 PMI dream of a day when we need to fear someone finding out we're trans no more then to fear someone finding out we're Diabetic.

I think just about every person of trans history looks forward to this.

re the definitions and "important fact" those arn't my definitions those come from the cited links:  Wikipedia Wiktionary and Merriem-Webster online.

In debate you should attack the argument not the person..

Anytime "You" is used it is generally the later.

But fine I will close this thread myself as it seems to be such a hot point for so many.

:icon_userfriendly: :eusa_wall:

/me takes a bow.