Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Who else has found that if they smile they pass a lot less?


I've noticed that if someone is fumbling over pronouns and I smile awkwardly they almost always peg me as female, so now I just raise an eyebrow or something. I never thought smiling was a feminine trait before, I thought it just meant you were friendly. :-\

I used to smile all the time, as a politeness thing. When saying "hello", "goodbye", "sorry", "please", "thank you", etc. Lately though, since it hinders my passing, I hardly ever smile anymore and I use less polite forms of these words. In my language it's more masculine to be less polite :P

A girl in my class once said guys only smile at you when they want to get in your pants ahah

I've heard people talk about this before.  Personally, I don't know if smiling makes me pass less, but I will not stop smiling, even if it does.  I think it's ridiculous that men aren't "supposed" to smile.  I have absolutely zero interest in being a stern, impolite, macho man who never smiles.

Quote from: Liam K on April 14, 2011, 07:07:31 PM
I've heard people talk about this before.  Personally, I don't know if smiling makes me pass less, but I will not stop smiling, even if it does.  I think it's ridiculous that men aren't "supposed" to smile.  I have absolutely zero interest in being a stern, impolite, macho man who never smiles.

Haha, I second this.

Some people just look girly when they smile.

If that's really true I'm definitely going to have to work on that. I smile all the time especially when I'm nervous or anxious which is pretty much... all the time. Then again I genuinely also like to be a nice person and I find smiles to be reassuring.

I smile all the time, and the only thing that's ever made me want to stop has been people telling me to "Smile!"

Does it hinder my passing? Maybe. It did pre-T. But...well, I just don't care. I'm transitioning to fix my body, not to fix what's going on in other people's heads.

I'm MTF, but my friends have said much the same thing in reverse: that the less I smile the less I look like a girl. :'D I don't think it makes a huge difference. It's not like men don't smile, and a macho man isn't going to look like a girl just because he cracks a grin every once in a while. But I do think girls on the whole smile more often, especially with strangers, and I do feel it can be the difference between looking like one gender and looking like the other for people on the borderline. Perhaps worth considering. Though to be honest, I think most of the boys here have it right. For me it's not worth giving up something as wonderful and fundamental as smiling to slightly increase your chances of passing. :D

Quote from: kyril on April 14, 2011, 08:20:40 PM
Does it hinder my passing? Maybe. It did pre-T. But...well, I just don't care. I'm transitioning to fix my body, not to fix what's going on in other people's heads.

This is a really great way to put it. I think sometimes it's easy to get too caught up worrying whether or not others see you a certain way. It seems kind of backwards to be faking a piece of your personality to pass better to other people or 'suit your look' as others see it, when you're in the middle of changing the outside in order to suit what you are inside in the first place XD

Someone mentioned something like "don't smile and you'll pass more" in the "do I pass" thread once and I was like - that's super sad. Telling someone not to smile ... and then someone believing that they can't smile or people won't think they're male enough are just ridiculous.

I usually look very serious (people have commented on this), with an apparantly unreadable expression. I don't know how to do a lot of facial expressions, I know how to smile and make the eyebrows look angry, but that's about it. However, when I'm happy, I tend to show it. I think it'd be silly not to smile just because some people find that feminine. Seeing happy people can really brighten your day.

To a certain extent, smiling is gendered behavior. Girls are raised to compromise and cooperate. Smiling is seen as a conciliatory gesture. When you're in the androgynous zone, smiling can make you seem a bit less masculine.

Quote from: artur on April 14, 2011, 06:28:15 PM
A girl in my class once said guys only smile at you when they want to get in your pants ahah

She has a very high opinion of herself and a very low opinion of others.

Does her generalization mean that her male relatives want to get in her pants if they smile at her?

Men smile at women for a whole load of reasons. Sometimes I find myself smiling because a girl looks like a sack of crap tied in the middle, if she wants to assume that I want to get in her pants when really I'm wondering if she even possesses a mirror then that's up to her.

The type of smile that people give can be read as either more masculine or more feminine.

It also depends what country you're in at the time - different cultures have different cues about when smiling means what. I noticed this in England: that when you ask someone to do something, if you don't smile they think they're being given an order ::)

Personally, I've spent a lot of time deliberately smiling at strangers as we pass by, because if you know you're not looking for anything from them, they pick up on this and it cheers them up. Man-to-man smiling is more loaded, but it's still doable. And if I see another man smiling in public, I never think "is that really a girl?" - I just think "nice - and clearly not English!"

Quote from: JohnR on April 15, 2011, 02:42:57 AM
She has a very high opinion of herself and a very low opinion of others.

Does her generalization mean that her male relatives want to get in her pants if they smile at her?

Men smile at women for a whole load of reasons. Sometimes I find myself smiling because a girl looks like a sack of crap tied in the middle, if she wants to assume that I want to get in her pants when really I'm wondering if she even possesses a mirror then that's up to her.

The type of smile that people give can be read as either more masculine or more feminine.

I assumed she must have meant it as a joke :P I was just using it as an example, my point being that girls tend to smile more than men usually, although it's not a rule.

Smiling definitely hinders my ability to pass, one hundred percent. But I don't think it's anything to do with smiling being a feminine trait, I think it just shows the girly-ness of my face more.

Quote from: yoxi on April 15, 2011, 02:55:37 AM
It also depends what country you're in at the time - different cultures have different cues about when smiling means what. I noticed this in England: that when you ask someone to do something, if you don't smile they think they're being given an order ::)

Personally, I've spent a lot of time deliberately smiling at strangers as we pass by, because if you know you're not looking for anything from them, they pick up on this and it cheers them up. Man-to-man smiling is more loaded, but it's still doable. And if I see another man smiling in public, I never think "is that really a girl?" - I just think "nice - and clearly not English!"

You love our stoic British ways really  :D

I've actually never really thought about this before. But I guess that it makes sense culturally speaking, since men are supposed to hide their feelings; no crying, no laughing, the more stoic you are - the more 'manly' you are. But honestly, since I don't pass at all, I've never realized this for myself. It might be kind of interesting to play around with it when I'm able to pass more easily though.

i think its to do with how you smile
the muscles in your face are affected by hormones and how you use them.
From what I know is girls have fuller checks from using them muscles more which pulls the smile upwards towards the eyes. Guys tend to grin more, much more focused on the lower face muscles that tend to pull to the side more.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.excellencefound.co.uk%2FUploads%2FSmiles%2F3099%2FSmilePhoto_PICT%2FSmile3099.jpg&hash=d7e99ad709df18ada0bf4fd8ee9a3d942cd8e2d5)
here is a good sample, the man does a much larger smile compairing. but notice how it's pulled outwards sideways. the women did a smaller one but its pulled upwards. its all down to how the musceles in your face are confirged. cant do much about it other than waiting for hormones to do their thing, making yourself smile like that so it builds up and other musceles break down. it also makes the shape of your face a bit better suited

Deborah Tannen writes that girls/women are very concerned with being liked.   This means minimising differences, playing down tensions, and avoiding anything that might make another person feel bad.    Smiling is a way of 'watering down' any potential disharmony in a social setting, and reinforcing female group cohesion.   Boys/men on the other hand, are according to Tannen much more concerned with status.   Males are very aware that they live in a status conscious world.   There are Alpha males, Beta males, Delta males, Gamma males and those at the bottom of the hierarchy.   How can you tell where you are in this hierarchy?   It is simple the more people you take cheek, abuse and orders from the lower your status is.   Boys have to constantly test each other to see you will obey them and who will not.   If a low ranked male won't do what you say them you have slipped in the hierarchy.   That is why teen boys are always calling each other names like '->-bleeped-<-', 'gaylord', 'bitch' and indulging in faux aggressive horseplay.  They are signalling to each other that any attempt to push them down in the hierarchy will be not be tolerated.
Men are very conscious of either being 'one-up' or 'one-down' when dealing with each other.  A male who smiles is saying 'I openly acknowledge your higher social rank.  Please don't push me, or swear at me or beat me up.  Look see how submissive I am.'   No self respecting male wants to appear weak, passive and submissive so he never shows signs of submission i.e. smiling.   

P.S. males do use smiling as a sign of sexual interest so be careful who you smile at.

Pretransition, I apparently disturbed some people because I didn't smile much. For example, when I took a small weekend class that was equally populated by men and women, the instructor zoomed in on me and asked if I was bored. In fact, I was fascinated and was having the time of my life, but I wasn't smiling. I couldn't see everyone in the classroom because I was in the front row on one side of a split classroom, but the guys I saw all had similar neutral expressions on their faces, whereas the women I saw had sort of polite semi-smiles. I guess I was the odd man out. I had an ex who ragged on me about this, too.

I've always had a neutral expression when I listen to people except when they say something amusing. I've had people stop in the middle of a conversation with me and ask me if anything is wrong. Maybe they were expecting a smile. Or maybe they were just picking up on my dysphoria. :P

Maybe it is just a matter of psychology, but I can't stand going periods of time without seeing someone smile or without smiling myself. I have depression, and just seeing other people smile makes me feel good, so I'll go out of my way to make everyone else happy just for the smiles. I once watched a movie called Wristcutters: A Love Story, and in this movie anyone who kills themselves ends up in an afterlife much like Earth, but worse. There are no stars, no flowers, and nobody is physically able to smile. Not seeing a smile just for the time through the movie made me so depressed.
I have quite a bit of flesh on my face for someone pre-T, and it really shows when I smile. But I look just like my dad when I smile. Whether or not it impairs my ability to pass, I'm not going to stop smiling just to like a tiny bit more masculine. If you already look pretty male, smiling isn't going to be the thing that gives you away.

One of my therapists used to "put on his therapy face," as I like to call it. He would have the same polite half-smile that I've seen on some women who were trapped by men at a social gathering when they really wanted to get away but had been trained to be polite unless the guy was being completely crude.

Quote from: Liam K on April 14, 2011, 07:07:31 PM
I've heard people talk about this before.  Personally, I don't know if smiling makes me pass less, but I will not stop smiling, even if it does.  I think it's ridiculous that men aren't "supposed" to smile.  I have absolutely zero interest in being a stern, impolite, macho man who never smiles.

I totally agree.  I know guys who smile all the time. Smiling is not a male or female thing. It's something we all do.

I tend to smile a lot. Its just my nature. I don't know that it hinders my passing but honestly, I'm not too worried about it. I'd rather look happy then depressed. Plus, smiling makes me feel better. Remember, it is the best medicine.  :)

Quote from: PixieBoy on April 14, 2011, 11:45:58 PM
I usually look very serious (people have commented on this), with an apparantly unreadable expression.

Similar thing with me, apparently, I tend to look either blank or pissed off unless I'm outright talking. I spent a lot of my childhood/early teens suffocating down visual emotions, so it's damn near impossible to break that. I don't know if smiling has ever hindered my passing, but I know laughing might sometimes. When I get laughing really hard, I break out this ridiculous thing we call The Crack Laugh. I can't even explain it, but it's so hilarious I can't even get pissed about it, and I don't think it's every happened out in public. For whatever reason, I'm really uncomfortable laughing a lot (or even talking much, for that matter) in public.

Quote from: Princess of Cups on April 15, 2011, 05:16:56 PMBoys/men on the other hand, are according to Tannen much more concerned with status. Males are very aware that they live in a status conscious world. There are Alpha males, Beta males, Delta males, Gamma males and those at the bottom of the hierarchy.   How can you tell where you are in this hierarchy? It is simple the more people you take cheek, abuse and orders from the lower your status is. Boys have to constantly test each other to see you will obey them and who will not. If a low ranked male won't do what you say then you have slipped in the hierarchy. That is why teen boys are always calling each other names like '->-bleeped-<-', 'gaylord', 'bitch' and indulging in faux aggressive horseplay. They are signalling to each other that any attempt to push them down in the hierarchy will be not be tolerated.
Men are very conscious of either being 'one-up' or 'one-down' when dealing with each other. A male who smiles is saying 'I openly acknowledge your higher social rank.  Please don't push me, or swear at me or beat me up.  Look see how submissive I am.' No self respecting male wants to appear weak, passive and submissive so he never shows signs of submission i.e. smiling.

This describes me so well it's not funny. In the male world smiling- to another guy anyway- can show weakness. It's different if you're joking around or laughing about something. There are hierarchies and they're always being tested.

I've never smiled much, especially to strangers. People have even complained about it. I too am told I look serious alot. It's just how I am.

Quote from: N.Chaos on April 24, 2011, 01:44:10 AM
Similar thing with me, apparently, I tend to look either blank or pissed off unless I'm outright talking. I spent a lot of my childhood/early teens suffocating down visual emotions, so it's damn near impossible to break that. I don't know if smiling has ever hindered my passing, but I know laughing might sometimes. When I get laughing really hard, I break out this ridiculous thing we call The Crack Laugh. I can't even explain it, but it's so hilarious I can't even get pissed about it, and I don't think it's every happened out in public. For whatever reason, I'm really uncomfortable laughing a lot (or even talking much, for that matter) in public.

Me too - if I'm not actively smiling or laughing, I look blank, "too serious," depressed, something. At least I did in girl mode. Haven't had anyone tell me that since I started being read as a guy.

Quote from: kyril on April 14, 2011, 08:20:40 PM
I smile all the time, and the only thing that's ever made me want to stop has been people telling me to "Smile!"

Does it hinder my passing? Maybe. It did pre-T. But...well, I just don't care. I'm transitioning to fix my body, not to fix what's going on in other people's heads.

This is really similar to my thoughts and feelings on it all.

I smile a lot more now that I'm transitioning and on T than I did before.  I'm a lot happier with myself.  It doesn't seem to hinder my passing much it seems. 

I only automatically smile when I'm amused by something or very pleased about something (as in, seeing my dogs after being away for a week). I'll force it for the sake of politeness when thanking people and such, or smile slightly when I think it may be socially appropriate. The rest of the time I look serious, blank, depressed, or angry -even when I'm happy. Smiling does make me look more feminine, as it emphasises the fat in my cheeks, but it usually hasn't been a problem because it's so rare an occurrence.

It's probably more physical appearance, but the situation may influence it. Smiling when joking around or getting excited about something is one thing, constantly smiling politely while someone else is talking is another - women do that a lot. I rarely see men do the same.

I have to smile at my job and in my case I've noticed less people read me as male when I'm smiling a real smile. When I do the smirk thing that I've always naturally done I get read as male more often. Will that stop me from smiling? No but honestly it's more natural for me to not smile than it is for me to actually smile.