Susan's Place Transgender Resources

 

Kia Ora, [This is the last poll for the day/evening/night...after which I'm off to bed]

  ::) So far I've found it quite interesting how some trans-people tend to view certain issues...
In most cases my topics don't really have right or wrong answers, as it all tends to boil down to the individual's personal experience/choice...

The following only relates to the RLE time prior to one having surgery

The Real Life Experience period and the dreaded "Gate/Time Keeper" seems to be a real issue for some...On the one hand there are those who feel no RLE is necessary, in other words have the surgery and worry about what happens in Real Life afterwards...

Some feel that 6 months is enough time to know whether or not surgery is the right thing to do for them...For others it's 12  or 24 months...

::) I personally feel that 24 months + is a good period of time for one to get their 'act' together and they should have smoothed out any bumps in the road by then[especially for the older transitioners who tend to come with a heap load of male-mental baggage] :icon_drunk: :icon_bong: :icon_anger: :icon_help: :eusa_liar:...[I would also fit into this category minus the anger]

The only exception to this rule I believe is those young/er trans-people who have never lived in denial of their true identity, in other words, never tried to "conform" to what others perceived as their "norm"...

I guess a good example of this is a friend of mine who transitioned at 17, that is she started to live fully time [without HRT or surgery], up until then she had been living an androgynous life style...

::)  As for myself, I was under the impression due to financial reasons I would never have surgery,  I had mentally conditioned myself for this, so when I went full time, it was also "real time" No gate keeper no RLE required...However I ended up having surgery four and half years later... By this time I had truly smoothed out any bumps in the road and had totally blended into society...       

Well what do you think??? Is the RLE passed it's use by date???

Metta Zenda :) I've had a lazy day today lots of time on my hands[plus the weather wasn't the best...

to me this is a total waste of time by the time youve jumped threw all the hoops to get hrt tell those that matter you are trans then deal with the fallout learning make up and how to dress, you already are full time in your head and please define living full time ive been fulltime since i realized something was wrong and that i wasnt the boy i appeared to be. full time tring to fix this collasal f up that is.
jessi

As far as I am concerned RLE is a total complete and utter load of stuff that comes from a cows bum.

I know what(?) I am I'm me.


OK we get very young people on this board and the question may be legit. But as long as they get pro counselling it should not be an issue. I knew the day I realised what gender I had been given that it was wrong. Why do I need RLE? For goddess sake I'm a woman. (bIg pause ) Sorry, ranting because of TOM. My RLE.

Cindy

If they are going to insist on surgical applicants having wasted the time and money to see a shrink, then the surgical team should be willing to defer to the very shrink in question...not everyone NEEDS a lengthy time in order to demonstrate fitness for surgery. 

The real life experience is an oxymoron statement.   No matter what I do it will always be my life.  So my life will always be real regardless of what I do.

So as far as I'm concerned it is a complete an utter waste of time and at least 2 years of my life were wasted, satisfying some conditions that the gate keepers imposed upon me and these conditions vary from place to place.  I would have had surgery at a much younger age if I had the information and knowledge that is currently available now and I know deep inside with every fibre of my being that I would not have hesitated in having the surgery straight away even then and most important of all I would never have ever regretted having my surgery earlier on in my life, even to this day I have never ever regretted my decision.

The 'gate keepers' have to fully realise that gender is innate in every human being regardless of our genes and trying to prevent how we want to live our lives is totally and utterly futile.  Yes, there maybe be co morbid conditions affecting gender and some individuals have questions or doubts, then these individuals need to seek the help so they can sort their issues out.

However, for others we need to live our lives the way we want without restrictions.

Kind regards
Sarah B

I know me better than anyone else and know what I want, what I need, the reality is that I don't need to see a therapist, or someone telling when I can do this or that, shouldn't have to, but do have to because those are the rules. And I was already intending to live my life as a woman, so there was no need for any standard to be set by some so called expert. If I had the money and could have the surgery, no waiting, no letters, just to be able to go in there and get it done, I'd do it right away, and know that once it was done I'd be okay, just as I knew I would be better while taking hormones.

Some therapists already get it.  I was never required to see my primary therapist on a regular basis during my year on hormones before surgery.  I only saw her, perhaps, 7 full times from initial appointment to the last one which was a discussion about the surgery letter. 

Technically speaking, I am not yet "full-time" because I have not yet changed my legal name and at the same time, I had the big surgery about 5 weeks ago.  Even then, I didn't live my entire life as my target gender until a month and a half before the surgery.

I think the "Real Life Test/Real Life Experience" is different for everyone as to what their therapist demands and the nature of that individual's transition.

Like Valerie, I'm torn.  I'm full time and on hormones right now, so technically in the RLE period.  Is this in anticipation of surgery?  Yes and no... I want SRS, but I'm also flat broke (actually, I'm $55k in debt from student loans) and lost my job yesterday.  My life is now devoted to finding another job and applying for spring admission to Masters programs.  Surgery is, sadly, in the far distant future unless my parents can help me out.  I may very well ask them in a year or so.

That said, by the time I can afford surgery, RLE won't be an issue because my primary therapist is well aware of my current state.

Now here's the tricky part: I know I've been female my entire life.  I've always known it, always felt it.  But I was socialized as a male and lived that role for 33 years, and there's a lot of baggage to shed from that experience and many lessons to learn now that I'm living as my true self.  Starting hormones, seeing physical results, then going full time has changed me far beyond the physical, and these changes also need to be processed and integrated into my self-concept.  This understanding is far more beneficial to my psychic well-being than any surgery in the world, including SRS.  I know that if I had to deal with the physical ramifications of surgery and learning a new body, I would have been too preoccupied to consider my mental life, which I identify with far more strongly than my biology.  I'm grateful for the time I have to grow emotionally, spiritually, and mentally into my new reality.

But what works for me doesn't work for everyone...  ;)  Others may need the physical before the mental.  It's the one-size-fits-all approach that bothers me about the RLE requirement.

My problem with this notion is that it seems to be more about asserting power over my (our) bodies and lives, than actually achieveing anythign constructive.

What surgical intervention I choose to get and when, is a matter for me. How I choose to live before and after is a matter for me.

Demanding that that I spend a period of time, wearing, what someone decides, is female clothing is insulting and just a little sexist.

I will dress as I choose to.

I would dearly love to have the ugly bit removed. Equally, it would be wonderful to have, what remains, reconstructed, by a skilled, plastic surgeon, into something more aesthetically pleasing to me.

That is my choice. It isn't for anyone else to know what there is between my legs, now or at any other time.

The notion of RLE is a humiliation.

My mental and physical fitness for surgery should be the same as for any other elective surgical procedure.

QuoteIt's the one-size-fits-all approach that bothers me about the RLE requirement.

Ditto that.
I think it should be tailored to the individual.

Quote from: Sarah B on May 07, 2011, 07:07:05 AM
The real life experience is an oxymoron statement.

It's not an oxymoron. However, it does lack context. "Real life experience as your target gender", with target gender marked as what you want your end goal to be for yourself, would be more suitable. It's obvious that everything you do is "real" with the exception of hallucinations, which are only real in the sense that you think they are; but I'm not going to go there.

It's a good idea on paper but in reality it's just more bureaucracy crap that people need to deal with without good reason. To my understanding, the whole point of it is to restrict people who are delusional about themselves, simply misperceive their feelings and will regret it later, or just have a good chance of regretting it in general. The first problem is that people can be confused about their reasons throughout the "real life experience" and come to the same unfortunate result. You need something major to realize you're going to make a mistake rather than time. An event of some sort that makes you actually question yourself is superior to just running on fantasy for 12 months (or any amount of time). The other problem is that (atleast, I hope) most competent therapists would catch this before writing letters which makes the "real life experience" rather redundant.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 07, 2011, 01:23:37 PM
I'd rather the surgery was linked to a set amount of time on HRT.

I agree with you.
This goes along with the idea that I mentioned about needing something that will actually make you question yourself. If "RLE" was based on HRT then it would be better than it is now, but it's still a waste of time in my opinion; considering how getting letters can delay you the same amount of time practically, along with waiting times.


"Not necessary-A waste of time..." because it's redundant and has faulty logic.

Furthermore,

Quote from: JungianZoe on May 07, 2011, 09:27:35 AM
It's the one-size-fits-all approach that bothers me about the RLE requirement.

I agree.

How to handle someone's identity is too large of a subject to make guidelines for, especially 'guidelines' that are treated as law. An extremely loose set of guidelines that are extensively reworked for each person is far superior.

Well I voted not necessary - BUT - what I actually mean is that it should be at the discretion of the supervising physician whether or not to impose a period of RLE. They should be free to treat an individual patient rather than a set of rules.

Where the patient is judged intelligent enough to understand the implications I am in favour of informed consent by the patient as the main basis for authorising the surgery rather than any sort of formal rules.

Personally I didn't do a formal RLE and over 25 years on the lack of it obviously didn't do me any harm.

Kia Ora all, [I'm refreshed,  did my meditation and had my morning jog + the weather's much better today=nice and sunny]

::) First and foremost, I realise in order for some to participate in the RLE, there must be some leeway by the government/state involved enabling for example, a provision for a temporary document covering 'legal name change' and the like, so as to make life a little easier when having to do the required RLE time...

A while back research carried out in the UK re: RLE [two years, that was the requirement if one is having government funded surgery back then], found that around two thirds who start the 'experience' drop out, some only a few months into it...Only a third actually continue on with RLE...It's possible some of those who drop out were just "crossdressers" ie, having a feminine side but their core gender identity was not female-others may or may not have suffered from this congenital condition but just couldn't cope with the stress and social pressures involved...

Understandably the RLE can be a real stressful time for some, and if one should find they can't cope, this does not necessarily mean they are not "transsexual", but it is a good indicator that transitioning full time and having[what is for the most part irreversible] surgery may not be the best option for them...

::)  Would a parachutist jump from a plane without first checking their parachute?
When it comes to the older transitioner and the RLE, I feel that one should check their parachute, then check it again and again for 3 months or 6 months or a year or two, when you find it's flawless-that is, it will safely bring you down to earth-jump and enjoy the ride...If you don't 'check' your parachute first[have some RLE under ones belt, but instead rush in and have 'life transforming' surgery], you could quite rapidly return to earth with a big thump and could "live" to regret it

Re the standards set for RLE
Different strokes for different folks-but there are thousands of  folks with different needs... For me the RLE time frame was irrelevant...However this doesn't stop me from being deeply concerned for those who lack the necessary coping skills and  try and rush through things. Having some uniform system in place seems to be a practical approach to this...It might not be perfect, but it's all there is for now...

BTW, I also believe that most if not all gender therapists who deal with trans people[well at lease here in NZ ] have a genuine concern for their clients wellbeing...A gender therapist's life is not an easy one...

When dealing with trans-clients a counsellor and a psychiatrist that I saw once said "At times being the 'gate keeper' is not a pleasant job!" They went on to say they see clients who are obviously struggling, finding it hard to cope in society in their newly acquired public identity, yet these clients insist by having surgery life will be better ... 

Please bear in mind  these are my personal opinions and by stating them it was not my intention to offence any reader ...

But I really do hope the new comers[especially the older ones with all the baggage] will think long and hard about things before jumping!

Happy Mindfulness

Metta Zenda :)

I also voted not necessary, however leaving it up to the supervising physician to impose any RLE, would more than likely lead to such variation in requirements for the RLE test.  How people go about their lives should be left up to the individuals concerned.  Humans are social creatures and the they will take the necessary steps that they deem necessary to join the 'social group' that they feel most comfortable with. 

I'm also of the opinion in what Jenny said and that is namely 'Where the patient is judged intelligent enough to understand the implications I am in favour of informed consent by the patient as the main basis for authorising the surgery rather than any sort of formal rules."  Whether our gender is innate or not does not matter, the individual must realise the unmistakeable consequences with going through with any surgery or treatment that is irreversible given today's technology.

Life Experience is real or Life Experience equals or equates to real.  So replacing "Life Experience" with Real in 'Real Life Experience" you will end up with 'Real Real.  Therefore an oxymoronic statement if there ever was one.

I understand the context in which Real Life Experience is used, however as mentioned above, we as individuals will take any or all of the necessary steps to acquire what we want and 'therapists' are there to help us if we need the help.  We can only achieve so much given our current circumstances, background and other factors.  We as humans need to learn acceptance of everyone regardless of how they present, whether we agree with what they do or not, does not matter, because if we humans want to evolve, then we must learn to accept them for who they are.

My kindest regards to one and all
Sarah B

I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.  And the reason is that if one could just go and get surgery, what if they find that it isn't really what they wanted.

Most probably would have no reluctance, but what of those few that would.  Should we not make sure everyone is right for surgery?

I am more than ready. 

this to me is one more attempt of society to protect the stupid.... for instance harmful or fatal if swallowed on a bottle of draino, coffee served hot, on a mcdonalds coffee cup really people come on.........if you have grs and suddenly or not so suddenly discover it was a bad idea tough who here can say that they didnt know the surgery was perminant who here after years of contiplating it can stand there and honestly say they didnt know it would radically change their life good or bad.....
please
jessi

Quote from: Sarah B on May 07, 2011, 05:54:16 PM
Life Experience is real or Life Experience equals or equates to real.  So replacing "Life Experience" with Real in 'Real Life Experience" you will end up with 'Real Real.  Therefore an oxymoronic statement if there ever was one.

That's not oxymoronic, that is redundant.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 08:22:55 PM
I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.  And the reason is that if one could just go and get surgery, what if they find that it isn't really what they wanted.

Most probably would have no reluctance, but what of those few that would.  Should we not make sure everyone is right for surgery?

I am more than ready.

A set amount of time in RLE doesn't necessarily make anyone more ready for surgery.   You can't quantify everyone's experience to a set period of time requirement.  Some people need no RLE to be ready for surgery (such as myself) while others may.  So in your unprofessional opinion, you are saying you know that I was not ready for surgery contrary to two therapists with PhDs?  I think you to be in no position of authority to have any say over what I wish to do with my own body and when.

Quote from: girl_ashley on May 07, 2011, 10:53:37 PM
A set amount of time in RLE doesn't make anyone more ready for surgery.   You can't quantify everyone's experience to a set period of time requirement.  Some people need no RLE to be ready for surgery (such as myself) while others may.  So in your unprofessional opinion, you are saying you know that I was not ready for surgery contrary to two therapists with PhDs?

I never said that at all.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I said some need to have RLE.  I also said that many would have no reluctance.  But you seem to value what two PhDs say rather than your own mind?

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 08:22:55 PM
I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.  And the reason is that if one could just go and get surgery, what if they find that it isn't really what they wanted.

Most probably would have no reluctance, but what of those few that would.  Should we not make sure everyone is right for surgery?

How is this different from the woman who goes for the BA with 470cc implants?  We do not require them to go around for months on end carrying around falsies in that size...

And yes, it is essentially the same analogous situation in that both persons are seeking to bring their body into congruence with an image they believe to be appropriate. 

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 11:03:27 PM
I never said that at all.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I said some need to have RLE.  I also said that many would have no reluctance.  But you seem to value what two PhDs say rather than your own mind?

Speak for yourself when it comes to putting words in my mouth.  I never said my therapists thought I wasn't ready, they most certainly did and thusly they signed SRS letters for me. They AGREED with me that I was ready and indeed I did get it done and I feel fantastic.

Breast augmentations can be reversed.  SRS can not.  And some of the surgeons I have contacted recommend just that.  Maybe not for months but at least for a weekend.

exactly janet it cant be reversed as explained by every srs surgeon in the initial consult so why do we need rle you are what you are and you have been living it most of your life the fact that some over ducated idiot wants you to dress a certain way and act a certain way before he will sign a letter is redundant and redicoulous if you get a non reversable surgery without thinking it threw u get what you diserve period

I stand by what I have said.  I believe for those who need it, there should be a period of RLE.  I also was ready from day one for SRS.

I have said my piece and that is that.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 11:14:23 PM
I stand by what I have said.  I believe for those who need it, there should be a period of RLE.  I also was ready from day one for SRS.

I have said my piece and that is that.

*peace

This is about us having the control over our own bodies and not leaving it up to some gatekeeper to say we need RLE before we do the deed.

You are also contradicting yourself.  Now you appear to be saying that "for those that need it" RLE should be required.  But in your earlier statement, you blatantly  said "I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.", implying necessary for everyone.  So, what exactly is your position?

Every surgeon is a gatekeeper and most require letters from other gatekeepers.  It all comes down to they don't want to be sued if you change your mind afterwards.

Just remember the clinic in Australia that was sued.  Or at least was investigated for pushing people.

Let us decided.  If you want to go thru RLE, go for it.  For me, and I think Ashley ( if I may be so bold ) show us to the table.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 11:21:51 PM
Every surgeon is a gatekeeper and most require letters from other gatekeepers.  It all comes down to they don't want to be sued if you change your mind afterwards.

Just remember the clinic in Australia that was sued.  Or at least was investigated for pushing people.

Let us decided.  If you want to go thru RLE, go for it.  For me, and I think Ashley ( if I may be so bold ) show us to the table.

You can still change your mind afterwards and sue people even if you have provided SRS letters.  It's actually more about the surgeons losing their insurance to practice if they don't ensure SRS letters are collected before surgery.

Bingo.  It is all about the bottom line.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 11:25:59 PM
Bingo.  It is all about the bottom line.

In this context, yes because if they don't have insurance they won't be able to practice and therefore will be left unable to help other patients.

Quote from: Zenda on May 07, 2011, 03:29:29 AM::) I personally feel that 24 months + is a good period of time for one to get their 'act' together and they should have smoothed out any bumps in the road by then[especially for the older transitioners who tend to come with a heap load of male-mental baggage] :icon_drunk: :icon_bong: :icon_anger: :icon_help: :eusa_liar:...

Quote from: Zenda on May 07, 2011, 05:46:00 PM
But I really do hope the new comers[especially the older ones with all the baggage] will think long and hard about things before jumping!

I notice you tend to talk a lot about "mental/male baggage" which evidently from your statements was a problem for you, but you can't extrapolate that to everyone's experience.  Every day of my life is RLE in the fullest sense of the word. I was never a "man" who became a woman;  I was born a woman with a birth defect, which I eventually had corrected.

Any phony "baggage" then was easily discarded in favor of my REAL life, i.e. my life as the female I'd always been.  I knew corrective surgery was the right path for me and I never had any doubts or second guesses about that.  All that really changed for me was the outward manifestation and the sheer ecstatic relief I felt from finally doing something about my problem, though later with physical changes there are other mental changes that occur naturally as well.  Even those had nothing to do with "baggage",  but rather with discovering the joys and intricacies of being a woman, the same as any little girl who eventually grows up, and with seeing very clearly this was the inevitable path I was on from the day I was born.

And what's with all the polls? ???  Honestly it isn't my place to have an opinion abut so called "real life experience". I did whatever I had to do to be cured and it worked, and everyone who suffers the scourge of transsexualism must do the same.  We can agree or disagree with the process which is our right, but if transition is right for us then it won't change our resolve to become who we are, no matter what it takes.

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 07, 2011, 11:34:27 PM
...with physical changes there are other mental changes that occur naturally as well.  Even those had nothing to do with "baggage",  but rather with discovering the joys and intricacies of being a woman, the same as any little girl who eventually grows up, and with seeing very clearly this was the inevitable path I was on from the day I was born....

I really love how you put this.  Other than that, I don't have anything constructive to add to this topic :X

Kia Ora Fairy girl,

::)  You're right I do have a slight polling "obsession" and with the ole male-mental baggage thingy too, my doctor says I need wean myself off of them gradually... fingers crossed  ;)

You make some interesting points of which I tend to agree with [another obsession of mine]...it's true "Different strokes for different folks!" BTW I'm truly happy for you and hope you continue to thrive...


Unlike yourself and many others here, surgery wasn't not a priority for me, it was not the be all and end all, it was just an unexpected bonus that I appreciate... but not a necessity...I had already found contentment with the help of HRT and from physically "living" my psycho-sexual identity openly in society and the fact I'm asexual helped to maintain the contentment...

But then I guess with the other legal issues surrounding transition back then, I had the advantage of living where the ID on ones driver's licence is free of  gender description and name change and new photo ID was easy to obtain...And on top of all this being born in the UK I was also in the fortunate position [if I hadn't  had government funded surgery] to have all my legal document changed sans surgery...

My apologises if my polling habit offends you in any way...Personally I don't offend easily in fact I don't find anything offensive...I'm easy/happy go lucky, go with the flow and don't take life too seriously kind of woman...

::) Perhaps that's why my reputation's shot ;)

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 08:22:55 PM
I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.  And the reason is that if one could just go and get surgery, what if they find that it isn't really what they wanted.

Most probably would have no reluctance, but what of those few that would.  Should we not make sure everyone is right for surgery?

I am more than ready.

No Janet we absolutely should NOT! To borrow from the good book I am not my brothers (or sisters) keeper. Only a fool tries to live someone else's life for them. Even with the very best intentions it can't be done. We have to let intelligent people make their own mistakes and not try to protect them from themselves unless they are clearly not mentally in a fit state to understand the implications.

As I said, if someone is not judged able to understand what they are doing then that is a different story... but if I, for example, had made a mistake then I am bright enough to know that I would simply have had to work at it and find a way to make a go of things.

In essence that is partly why the surgery works and RLE's DONT!  The finality of it, removes the tantalising possibility of "what if..." While I was pre-op I was always critically aware that in extremis I could theoretically revert if I had to. True I didn't want to do so, but in theory I could have. That simple fact allows one to adopt a slightly disengaged mental attitude to any social problems. In effect you may fail to fully confront them because you believe that you can always run back home to mama, by de-transitioning, if they become too much...

So in that sense only once you are postop have you irreversibly landed on one or other side of the fence, which for me removed the feeling of having been given by fate the "possibility" to be either gender and maybe ending up in the wrong one due to circumstance. Once I had landed I knew that for better or worse I now had to make a success of this - and so I just got on with it and I did!

In my experience true RLE only started AFTER surgery. Up until that point it wasn't ever really REAL. (and please understand I am only talking about my own individual experience here).

that's a good point jen. one of the things I've taken upon myself to do, as part of my transition, is to be very firm in the idea that there is no going back. if I hadn't, I almost certainly would have surrendered to the pressure applied by my spouse by now.

My mindset is that I have crossed the line and I'll live as a woman or I'll die. whatever the price for that, it will have to be paid.

But that's a matter of resolve, not of physical ability and i agree if one is under enough pressure (perhaps the fear of losing income, or family, whatever) that there's the potential to give up which does leave one in a sort of limbo.

for me, the reason I'd say RLE simply doesn't do what surgery would do (or at least, from the testimony of the post-op it appears to do) is that no matter how good others are to me, I'm aware that i "know something they don't know" - it's VERY difficult for me to submerge into "girl talk" without being conscious of it, or to be flirted with by a guy without thinking "he wouldn't be saying that if he knew" or whatever. Even though I spend every hour being as female as my anatomy allows, there's still that caveat.

Kia Ora,
It would seem it's a "Every wo-man for him/herself !" mentality that's shared by many who have commented so far...

At times I tend to forget for many of you here, there's a big monetary cost involved...Perhaps this could be influencing your thoughts on the matter...

However, I wonder if the majority would be less aggressively oppose to the RLE, if surgery in their country was government funded ? Them not having to fork out any money but having to abide by the procedures  their government had put in place in order for one to obtain "free" surgery...Would you be prepared to jump through the hoops?

Just a thought...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on May 08, 2011, 02:19:03 AM
Kia Ora,
It would seem it's a "Every wo-man for him/herself !" mentality that's shared by many who have commented so far...

At times I tend to forget for many of you here, there's a big monetary cost involved...Perhaps this could be influencing your thoughts on the matter...

However, I wonder if the majority would be less aggressively oppose to the RLE, if surgery in their country was government funded ? Them not having to fork out any money but having to abide by the procedures  their government had put in place in order for one to obtain "free" surgery...Would you be prepared to jump through the hoops?

Just a thought...

Metta Zenda :)

Well here in the UK it IS government funded - so for me it makes no difference.

The everyone for themsleves attitude is just a simple fact of life. We all have to live (and be mindful of) our own existences. You can (and indeed should) be considerate of others in your dealings, but you cannot control their lives for them and nor should you try.

(oh and by the way even though I had government funding available, I still opted to voluntarily pay for it myself on principle, because I had the means to do so and I didn't want to be taking valuable resources away from someone who couldn't afford to pay.)

As one of the 'older' ones, I do not have any male mental baggage, never have, never will. Simple because I'm female. What I don't have at the moment, and I think Janet is in a similar boat for different reasons, is opportunity.

As far as I'm concerned I do not, have not and will not require RLE, although that said I live as me most of the time anyway. Others may. And as people have said SRS tends to very difficult to reverse.

I do remember a documentary about a Polish "MtF" for lack of ways to describe the particular case. She had SRS and basically forced the issue with no RLE. She deeply regretted it. She was a very large muscular person with very large male hands and a very masculine face. After SRS she then realised there was no way that her society was going to accept her as female. She was isolated, out of work and very lonely, and very unhappy. In her case I think RLE may have helped her in making a decision. That said it was her decision.

Cindy

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 08, 2011, 02:23:57 AM
Well in the UK it IS government funded - so for me it makes no difference.

(oh and by the way I still opted to voluntarily pay for it myself on principle, because I had the means to do so and I didn't want to be taking valuable resources away from someone who couldn't afford to pay.)

Kia Ora Jenny,

You're one of the lucky ones, sadly many don't have the funds to pay for their own, in fact I would say the vast majority of those who suffer from this condition never end up having surgery...I guess that's also why the UK and other governments have shown some compassion and done away with trans-people having to got through surgery in order to obtain a new birth certificate, mind you from what I gather it's still not easy for some to do this...

A few months prior to my surgery here in NZ, I applied for a new birth certificate[ this was not long after the GRA came into play] because I had told them I was already booked in for surgery they[the GRP] began to process my application but recommended I wait till after my surgery to complete it...My application was processed quite quickly, every thing was completed within a month after my surgery...

::)  On the whole, from when I first  made contact with a gender specialist right through to the surgery and the after care, my transition went as smoothly as it possibly could.. I had no problems with any government departments both here and in the UK that I had to deal with...But then I was one of the fortunate ones who just seems to glide through the system as if I was Teflon coated  ;)  Perhaps it was because by this stage I really didn't care one way or the other,  I wasn't under any self imposed pressures...

Metta Zenda :)   

Quote from: Zenda on May 08, 2011, 02:19:03 AM
Kia Ora,
It would seem it's a "Every wo-man for him/herself !" mentality that's shared by many who have commented so far...

At times I tend to forget for many of you here, there's a big monetary cost involved...Perhaps this could be influencing your thoughts on the matter...

However, I wonder if the majority would be less aggressively oppose to the RLE, if surgery in their country was government funded ? Them not having to fork out any money but having to abide by the procedures  their government had put in place in order for one to obtain "free" surgery...Would you be prepared to jump through the hoops?

Just a thought...

Metta Zenda :)

hoops are hoops, if you have to jump you have to jump - it's not a matter of want to jump.

I am not at all disagreeing that there are cases, as Cindy described, where the individual needs the RLE to process their individual circumstances. i think for most of us we just kind of rebel at a "one-size-fits-all" prescription.

Quote from: CindyJames on May 08, 2011, 02:29:59 AM
As one of the 'older' ones, I do not have any male mental baggage, never have, never will. Simple because I'm female. What I don't have at the moment, and I think Janet is in a similar boat for different reasons, is opportunity.

As far as I'm concerned I do not, have not and will not require RLE, although that said I live as me most of the time anyway. Others may. And as people have said SRS tends to very difficult to reverse.

I do remember a documentary about a Polish "MtF" for lack of ways to describe the particular case. She had SRS and basically forced the issue with no RLE. She deeply regretted it. She was a very large muscular person with very large male hands and a very masculine face. After SRS she then realised there was no way that her society was going to accept her as female. She was isolated, out of work and very lonely, and very unhappy. In her case I think RLE may have helped her in making a decision. That said it was her decision.

Cindy

Kia Ora Cindy,

It's good to hear that you are male mental  baggage free, however I'm not say that every single "Older" transitioner has the same amount of things to overcome...

For example my main issues were surrounding my children, and the gender therapist whom I saw was very helpful in this respect...And as for the RLE [which I didn't really have to do because of the situation I described in other posts] and from a purely physical point of view, I'm 160 cms, thinned boned, small hands and feet and weight 58/60 kgs[around 120 pounds give or take- sorry I can't remember stones, perhaps it's because I had been for quite some time in my past  ;) ;D ], and from what I gather my mannerism/behaviour has always been somewhat androgynous as was my overall appearance prior to HRT...

But sadly many M2Fs are not as fortunate, and the male mental and physical baggage[ having to undo years of enforced  male etiquette plus coming to terms with their physical appearance ] are a real issue that some need to overcome and the RLE is one way of smoothing out things...

Or if one looks at it another way, when out in public they may have to run society's gauntlet of ridicule and rejection on a daily bases, which can in many cases cause depression and anxiety and if they haven't developed a good coping mechanism[that would come from doing the trial and error RLE], they "could" suffer even more emotional stress after having major life changing surgery which could sadly lead to "regret"...

And the other thing that seems to happen once one has come to terms with who they truly are and starts on the road to "recovery", is the sense of euphoria...This euphoric rush can cloud over the reality of ones situation by pushing aside the long term everyday impact it will have on their lives once they have had the "point of no return" surgical procedure...

Many of us have waited for many years to "Be who we are" so what impact would/will another year or two's waiting have on things ???

Anyway enough said for now from me...I can only wish all those who have started their road to discovery a safe and happy journey...

Metta Zenda :)     

Hi Zenda,

I don't have any problems with your post. I'm 170 cms and weigh 61 kilos. I'm  in inches, 37,30,36. Very happy :laugh: I'm very fit and very healthy. I think Tammy summarised things as saying we do not like  'boxes' and not that we are put in or hoops that we have to jump.

I have problems, and have all my life, passing as male, and failing. I've always identified as female. And yes because of my age I have done all the stuff to try and prove I'm a guy. All failed BTW.

I've also never really thought about what it would be like to be a guy. This is not a contradiction, I tried to blend in. Didn't work. Now a days I don't care, I'm me. This has been cathartic, reached without therapists or whatever. I am me. And I love me.

< where by the way are you from? Hawaii or NZ, just curious about the Kia Ora, how does that translate?>

Hugs

Cindy

Quote from: Zenda on May 07, 2011, 05:46:00 PM
A while back research carried out in the UK re: RLE [two years, that was the requirement if one is having government funded surgery back then], found that around two thirds who start the 'experience' drop out, some only a few months into it...Only a third actually continue on with RLE...It's possible some of those who drop out were just "crossdressers" ie, having a feminine side but their core gender identity was not female-others may or may not have suffered from this congenital condition but just couldn't cope with the stress and social pressures involved...

Understandably the RLE can be a real stressful time for some, and if one should find they can't cope, this does not necessarily mean they are not "transsexual", but it is a good indicator that transitioning full time and having[what is for the most part irreversible] surgery may not be the best option for them...

::)  Would a parachutist jump from a plane without first checking their parachute?
When it comes to the older transitioner and the RLE, I feel that one should check their parachute, then check it again and again for 3 months or 6 months or a year or two, when you find it's flawless-that is, it will safely bring you down to earth-jump and enjoy the ride...If you don't 'check' your parachute first[have some RLE under ones belt, but instead rush in and have 'life transforming' surgery], you could quite rapidly return to earth with a big thump and could "live" to regret it

These two points, with respect to you, indicate a mind set.

The comparison with that parachutist would be relevant to check that the surgeon is properly qualified. The parachutist has already made up their mind to jump.

It isn't surprising that many who try RLE, drop out. But to then assume they drop out, because they have changed their minds, or realised their resolve wasn't as great as they thought is inaccurate.

Transgender people have, according to the evidence I've looked at, existed since the earliest times. The indications seem to suggest that the tendency is often innate, or at the very least,  of such casual consequences as to be effectively innate.

Yet it is only in the last 60 or so years, that remodeling the human body has been available.

It is only within the last 40 or so years, that there has been any general acceptance of anything other than hetrosexuality. (I recall the accepted wisdom being that homos are stuck in the anal stage of their development).

As a transgender person, I seek such intervention as will make my own life, more comfortable. Since the dawn of human time, like all transgender people, I have simply had to try to function, within the confines of my society, as best as I can.

Those that grew up in western European societies, for example, seem to have found it necessary to hide their reality, to the extent of over compensation. While those in many far Eastern societies, including, (apparently), N America, seem to have found a secure position for themselves, within the existing structure of their societies.

This demonstrates that, while transgender has always existed, those affected have needed to adapt themselves to their own local environments. That my European predecessors have hiden themselves to the extent of overcompensation, does not indicate that their were never transgender.

This would seem to be the attempted implication of the claim: found that around two thirds who start the 'experience' drop out, some only a few months into it...

As a tenager, I would have sought, as full a transision as I could get. I'm now in my 50s, I have a stable family life and a stable social life.

My changing priorities do not indicate that my feelings or resolve have altered, rather that my opportunities and the demands of my environment have changed.

I make no judgement upon those who have chosen to transision in later life. I offer my continuing support to those that have sacrificed so much, even everything, to pursue their goals.

Quote from: Tammy Hope on May 08, 2011, 03:06:35 AM
hoops are hoops, if you have to jump you have to jump - it's not a matter of want to jump.

I am not at all disagreeing that there are cases, as Cindy described, where the individual needs the RLE to process their individual circumstances. i think for most of us we just kind of rebel at a "one-size-fits-all" prescription.

Kia Ora Tammy,

"Different strokes for different folks" is a good thing, for example if a person turns up for every therapy session say on or after the initial intro one, dressed appropriately in attire that expresses who they are[this doesn't have to mean them dressed to kill ie, make-up dress, high heels fake nails, etc ] in other words dressed in a comfortable manner, and whose behaviour is relaxed and "natural" then I would agree why should they have to do a long RLE when they are already totally comfortable with who they are...

But on the other hand, if one is dressed to the nines the full shebang, but their behaviour is agitated and they're looking and feeling quite self conscious, I would agree with the therapist in that they DO need time to adjust...

I think when the policy makers think of trans-people they tend to think more on the lines of the latter, which no doubt has lead to them prescribing the across the board measures, thinking "It's better to be safe than sorry!" After all that's what the RLE is all about...

::)  I've rattled on long enough, my brain is telling me I must sleep...So I'm off to bed now.. nighty night all and thanks for all the great input...But by all means please feel "free" to continue the discussion...

PS, Kia Ora Cindy,

I'm an Afro-Saxon born in the UK[Father Afro Caribbean  Jamaican - Mother Anglo-Saxon English], migrated to Aussie when I was 16 and moved to Aotearoa [ NZ] 20 odd years ago [my ex 's a Kiwi]

"Kia Ora" is a Maori Greeting like Hi, Hello, G'day[Hawaiian and Maori  are similar, but not quite the same] ...Kia Ora can also be used as a way of saying Thank you too...

Nice to meet you Cindy, but I'm off to bed now, it's way past my bed time...

Kia Ora Spacial,

I would love to chat but I really do have to go to bed now...You do make some interesting points though, and I also agree with a lot of what you have said.. I'm not for one minute saying those who suffer from this condition shouldn't do something about it, all I'm saying is people should think long and hard[just like you yourself have done] and weigh up all the odds and once a decision is made [with a clear/sound mind] do what it takes to become comfortable... To rush into something as life changing as this is dangerous...However if one feels they CAN handle it and DON"T need any RLE period to adjust...Good on them and I wish them well and all the success...

But this doesn't stop me having concerns for their well being... Nice meeting you Spacial...   

Now I really DO have to go to bed...I'm running on empty...

Metta Zenda :)

my biggest issue is that the "rle" puts the individual at an extream risk of assault or death. i have encountered situations in the us were so called therapists required rle prior to authorizing hrt this is ludicris and a dangerous position to take. very few if any of us except the most young or genetically lucky could even come close to passing pre hrt and others cant pass post hrt. to require rle before even considering a person for hrt is negligence. like any rule once in place there will always be some moron who will abuse it to fit his or her own agenda.....
jessi

Quote from: Zenda on May 08, 2011, 04:35:10 AM

Kia Ora Spacial,

I would love to chat but I really do have to go to bed now...You do make some interesting points though, and I also agree with a lot of what you have said.. I'm not for one minute saying those who suffer from this condition shouldn't do something about it, all I'm saying is people should think long and hard[just like you yourself have done] and weigh up all the odds and once a decision is made [with a clear/sound mind] do what it takes to become comfortable... To rush into something as life changing as this is dangerous...However if one feels they CAN handle it and DON"T need any RLE period to adjust...Good on them and I wish them well and all the success...

But this doesn't stop me having concerns for their well being... Nice meeting you Spacial...   

Now I really DO have to go to bed...I'm running on empty...

Metta Zenda :)

Thank you Zenda.

It's really refreshing and stimulating to have discussions that encourage us to think a bit deeper, beyond our original preconceptions.

Quote from: jesse on May 08, 2011, 04:39:28 AM
my biggest issue is that the "rle" puts the individual at an extream risk of assault or death. i have encountered situations in the us were so called therapists required rle prior to authorizing hrt this is ludicris and a dangerous position to take. very few if any of us except the most young or genetically lucky could even come close to passing pre hrt and others cant pass post hrt. to require rle before even considering a person for hrt is negligence. like any rule once in place there will always be some moron who will abuse it to fit his or her own agenda.....
jessi

heck here in germany it's
you start RLE. a year into RLE you can start HRT. hair removal is 6 months after starting HRT, and i think another 6 months later is SRS.
meaning a year and a half after starting to live as a woman you have to let a beard grow for removal... the good thing is that health care or insurance or whatever will pay most of it for you, the bad is that if your Therapist is a jerk who can't twist the rules for the patients and you can't find another one, you are stuck following that order. but again, at least you don't have to pay enormous amounts of money... eh

Quote from: girl_ashley on May 07, 2011, 10:49:32 PM
That's not oxymoronic, that is redundant.

Yes, Real Real is redundant but 'Real Life Experience' is oxymoronic statement in an ironic way and I'm being extremely sarcastic in relation to the Real Life Experience statement.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Quote from: jesse on May 08, 2011, 04:39:28 AM
my biggest issue is that the "rle" puts the individual at an extream risk of assault or death. i have encountered situations in the us were so called therapists required rle prior to authorizing hrt this is ludicris and a dangerous position to take. very few if any of us except the most young or genetically lucky could even come close to passing pre hrt and others cant pass post hrt. to require rle before even considering a person for hrt is negligence. like any rule once in place there will always be some moron who will abuse it to fit his or her own agenda.....
jessi

I do believe this is why so many therapists will now allow beginning HRT before beginning "RLE" because they realize the changes the hormones make us more able to fit in as our target gender once a period of time on hormones has elapsed.  At least, this is one of reasons why it should be allowed to start HRT before "RLE" (if, that is, the therapist is requiring "RLE)

Quote from: jesse on May 08, 2011, 04:39:28 AM
my biggest issue is that the "rle" puts the individual at an extream risk of assault or death. i have encountered situations in the us were so called therapists required rle prior to authorizing hrt this is ludicris and a dangerous position to take. very few if any of us except the most young or genetically lucky could even come close to passing pre hrt and others cant pass post hrt. to require rle before even considering a person for hrt is negligence. like any rule once in place there will always be some moron who will abuse it to fit his or her own agenda.....
jessi

I think this doesn't get considered enough by the gatekeepers. We live in a society in which the vast majority of the population can't get even the most basic protections on use of public accommodations, yet RLE requires the transitioner to use the female option every time.

The potential negative reaction is well know, documented, and exemplified regularly. i can't imagine how it can be considered ethical to require someone to put themselves at risk (albeit, no one is requiring me to and i do it anyway).

Especially in light of the fact (and i speak from personal experience here) when we, pre-op,  conduct ourselves as female in ways in which we KNOW in our soul that we are running the risk of being violently outed, we are NOT in reality "being women" in the sense that RLE expects us to, rather, we are being "others" - outsiders trying to "get away with" something.

That is not the objective of the RLE.

To be honest all the life experience I'm having to go through is extremely frustrating. The point of no return for me was a year ago when i decided to transition. Yes there have been a few bumps on the road but I've never once waivered in my desire not to go back. I'm lucky, things are happening faster than I originally thought they would...something which i'm extremely grateful for, but if i could have surgery tomorrow I would.

It occurs to me that RLE has been imposed as a sort of test, the judgement being, that if you can't humiliate yourself by spending a period of time, living according to someone's stereotype of how your sort of people should look, then you don't really want to do this anyway.

Personally I think it should be called "Living in Role" or similar, because until SRS it can't really even approximate "Real Life". 
  As for humiliation, as a member of the Police you get accused of lying under oath or worse, so it's water of a duck's back to me.
It's really a case by case thing. No two of us are the same.

While I understand the idea behind RLE I don't think anything more than six months should be necesssary for most.

But we are still left with the conundrum of having to live according to someone's defination of the desired gender.

If I were asked for RLE prior to begining treatment to surgery toward appearing more female, what would I be expected to wear?

A short, black mini skirt, red lipstick, knee lenght boots and huge false boobs?

Or perhaps a conservative, knee length skirt, with a blouse and false boobs?

My wife is genetically female. We dress in the same way. Trousers. A sweat shirt or tee shirt. We both have short hair. The only difference is, I don't have false boobs because I I see no reason to have false anything.

The notion of dressing for RLE is insulting and sexist.

Perhaps if someone could provide some established guidelines of what appropriate clothing for RLE is.

For a Gfamale, would they be expected to wear a tight binder? What if such a thing is uncomfortable. Many gfemales have quite large breasts.

RLE is a joke.  A competent therapist can tell in very short order whether a client fits a societal role.  The competent provider does not mandate the client play 'dress up' but rather wants the client to take reasonable measures to be viewed by society as a collective whole as the appropriate sex.  Jeans and comfortable shoes can fit that bill... 

I don't know that either of the two persons who wrote my letters ever saw me in a dress and neither ever saw me wearing much in the way of make-up.  Yet neither had any qualms about providing the letters required for surgery.  The therapist who was being paid as a primary would have written my letter on the second visit had I made the request...wish I would have known that at the time, but c'est la vie.  My other letter was from a prof who saw me in a classroom setting as well as a few out of class encounters including dinner with him and his wife.   

I would opine that an M2F being 'treated' by a therapist who mandated a particular style of dress or a phucton of makeup is conducting their practice in a manner that borders on malpractice. 

Quote from: Ann Onymous on May 11, 2011, 01:45:47 PM
RLE is a joke.  A competent therapist can tell in very short order whether a client fits a societal role.  The competent provider does not mandate the client play 'dress up' but rather wants the client to take reasonable measures to be viewed by society as a collective whole as the appropriate sex.  Jeans and comfortable shoes can fit that bill... 

I don't know that either of the two persons who wrote my letters ever saw me in a dress and neither ever saw me wearing much in the way of make-up.  Yet neither had any qualms about providing the letters required for surgery.  The therapist who was being paid as a primary would have written my letter on the second visit had I made the request...wish I would have known that at the time, but c'est la vie.  My other letter was from a prof who saw me in a classroom setting as well as a few out of class encounters including dinner with him and his wife.   

I would opine that an M2F being 'treated' by a therapist who mandated a particular style of dress or a phucton of makeup is conducting their practice in a manner that borders on malpractice.

Yeah, because you know that if you don't go to your therapy appointments in a dress and without makeup then you're just not serious enough to be allowed to transition.

I agree, neither of my therapists every saw me in a dress or with make up on.  I think all-in-all, my primary therapist only saw me twice in girl mode, and that was six months apart.  And actually both therapists didnt know I had gone full time until the very appointment I booked with each to get surgery letters from them.

Quote from: girl_ashley on May 11, 2011, 02:10:18 PM
Yeah, because you know that if you don't go to your therapy appointments in a dress and without makeup then you're just not serious enough to be allowed to transition.

I agree, neither of my therapists every saw me in a dress or with make up on.  I think all-in-all, my primary therapist only saw me twice in girl mode, and that was six months apart.  And actually both therapists didnt know I had gone full time until the very appointment I booked with each to get surgery letters from them.

Both of my peeps saw me in 'girl' mode from the first time I met them (the second was the prof who initially knew me just as a student in the class).  But 'girl mode' attire was baby dyke mode.  It was abundantly clear to them that I was at a societal comfort level in terms of presentation and acceptance... 

I know each therapist views things differently ... my therapist stated when I started binding is when I began my RLE.  She said for her it starts when you make an effort to be seen as your true gender.  It's not that you declare yourself or dress a certain way but its when you have made the mental switch to I want to be seen as my true gender and you take steps towards such.  Her belief is the gender is fluid and people express it in a variety of ways an no one should be forced to fit into gender roles.

On the one hand, for a transsexual who is firmly set and ready, it's an unnecessary delay. It's not uncommon to not want to pursue romantic relationships until it's done, and putting love on hold for a year for something so arbitrary is just unnecessary.

On the other hand, there are some who can and would move through things very quickly, and it is not an easy or simple procedure to recover from. So rushing into that and piling that physical recovery on top of the other challenges in such a short time span could be overwhelming. But time alone may not affect those other things in the slightest; there may never be a good time to do it besides now.

But I agree with many others here. That's all stuff to be worked out with the therapists involved. I do think a modicum of gatekeeping is necessary to, at the very least, ensure that people actually are informed and have given it proper consideration. But I find it difficult to believe anyone would get this far without knowing what they are in for and wanting to continue. More importantly, those who "might regret it" are probably going to slip through anyway. So if they're not being helped, then who is the forced waiting period helping?

Quote from: spacial on May 11, 2011, 07:19:47 AM
It occurs to me that RLE has been imposed as a sort of test, the judgement being, that if you can't humiliate yourself by spending a period of time, living according to someone's stereotype of how your sort of people should look, then you don't really want to do this anyway.

+1

It really is telling that what the industry defines as RLE occurs in a theoretical non-bigoted world where all you have to do is accomplish living in the target gender.

In the real world, RLE means you have to accomplish living as an object of scorn and be prepared to endure it.

I think perhaps they realize that they are sending you for the latter, but call it the former to somehow "clean it up" a bit.

I agree here with what's been said of late about what is REQUIRED. But I'll also freely admit that i do wear make-up and false tits and  a skirt whenever I practically can because that's MY comfort zone for being comfortably female. I'm sure part of that is that i want to make an emphatic statement (I'm jeans and a t-shirt i'd simply look like a rather disreputable white-trash male) until and unless the physical alterations are complete.

But part of it is that I tend to be, or at least think, "girly girl"

Either way though, my main agreement is with the idea that framing RLE as "prove you can be a woman" is misleading at best in a world which doesn't read us as women (and if you do get read as a woman, you will have very little problem living as one in almost every case).

I have heard a few people note some sort of experience with "losing the male privilege" but I've not noted any such difference myself. The only thing i've found difficult AT ALL about living as a woman is those who don't accept that claim and make a point of their disagreement.