Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Transitioning is NOT a Decision.

http://ben-girl-notesfromthetside.blogspot.com/2011/05/transitioning-is-not-decision.html (http://ben-girl-notesfromthetside.blogspot.com/2011/05/transitioning-is-not-decision.html)
5/6/11
By Elizabeth

There has to be something in the water because there is another expert coming forward on T-Central to give a dissertation on transitioning and it is of such importance the resident nitwits at T-Central have featured it. There is only one problem with the resident expert. This person has not transitioned yet unless it is after May 24, 2011 which is their official transition date.

    Plenty of us that will tell you they made a right decision.

How does this person know it was the right decision and will end up being the correct decision when they have not even made their fateful plunge into the world as a woman?

Transition IS a choice.

You choose to do it or not and whatever the outcome with any of those roads might lead.


But what you DONT choose is to have the feelings that made you think of transition (gender dysphoria) That if you left those feelings stay there and you dont do something well they might made you unhappy.

You dont choose to be born with what you were born or to feel the way you feel. Thats innate.


But you choose what road to take, where to stop and when to start.

And for some, its transition or die thats one interesting choice dont you think?

I just so happen to be one of those "transition or die" types, kinda. Last night, actually, I made a comment to somebody, I'm not sure what they're username is, but their nick in the chat was Rabbit, that I would sooner jump on top of a live grenade than spend a day longer in the body of a male than I have too.

It's really important to me that I transition as quickly, yet safely, as I can so that I don't have to be a male longer than I have to.

Transitioning ultimately becomes a choice of being who you are vs. playing the game by being someone you are not just to fit in. Sadly, much of the world expects you to play this game which is why some people have such a hard time beginning a transition. With me, it became a snowball effect. I never really started becoming "more feminine" but simply shed the false masculine shell that was there what little of it there was. Some people set dates they are going to go full time. With me, I had considered doing that but my appearance had already been changing anyway, and I simply couldn't hold on to the "boy side" any longer so I let it go. At this point, I don't think I could even get it back if I tried because it was never me in the first place.

What a weird article. I had so much trouble following it that I had to read it backwards to get her drift. But I'm an odd bird, so I guess it could have just been me.

It sounds like two transitioners at opposite ends of the age spectrum that have been somehow attacked by each other's group.

I don't agree with either of them in total. Typically someone has to want to transition to put themselves through it, else they would wither away and die of dysphoria somewhere. Then there are those who have it easy and do it without GID punching them in the stomach for decades, hardening them against the world. It's easier for them to experience a euphoria about transition.

In any case, it's your life.

I did choose to transition. The choice was made under duress but I choose it.

I have to respectfully disagree with a lot of the assertions made in this thread about the "choice" issue. Left with whether to live or to die, is not a legitimate choice! When you've reached the point that death is necessary over living, you've made a determination that is as inalterable as that of having SRS.

If you feel that you must die; that part of our experience as being transsexual really has nothing to do with transition. If one is determined to not live any longer; it is a result of being depressed. It's because of the lack of support, the uncertainty of being successful (which is really simple fear of the unknown), the discrimination, the ridicule, the bullying and the ostracizing that all to often occurs as a factor of being known as transsexual.

If you are transsexual, you WILL transition.  It's not a choice. It just is what it is, being who you really know yourself to be. It's is something you MUST do, not something you could, kinda', sorta', maybe do (those represent a choice).

Where I part company with the author of the blog is when she leaves no room for those that transition, yet have not for whatever reason, obtained the corrective surgery. There are a multitude of reasons for not having surgery. And I do not feel that you should be invalidated as being transsexual based upon the lack of completion, and/or reaching the ultimate goal of having received surgery as a late transitioner. But, I digress.

Once again, the issue of having a choice in being who you are and/or transitioning; there is simply no such thing.


Dawn

transitioning is not all about changing your name, dressing in the clothes that match your gender identity, taking cross sex hormones, and eventually getting srs. to say that is very superficial. there's many more ways people express their transition. i know i've done it. i simply don't believe in only being a male or only a female. that is very unrealistic. how you express your gender identity can manifest itself in many ways.

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 09, 2011, 08:05:47 PM
transitioning is not all about changing your name, dressing in the clothes that match your gender identity, taking cross sex hormones, and eventually getting srs. to say that is very superficial. there's many more ways people express their transition. i know i've done it. i simply don't believe in only being a male or only a female. that is very unrealistic. how you express your gender identity can manifest itself in many ways.

What a bunch of nonsense. If you are comfortable living a gender variant life, that is fine. The topic as I read it was about a transsexual transition. Transsexualism is a medical condition of being born in the wrong sex, with the brain of one sex, and the body of the other. It is not a "gender identity" or "gender expression." Don't tell me that there is no such thing as being "only female" or "only male." You are wrong. For you to come here and tell me that I and others with a transsexual medical condition would have it that being "only one gender" is "very unrealistic" is a bunch of BS and is an attack on who we are. And who are you to call these steps that I and others take to have the bodies we were always meant to be "superficial." Stop misrepresenting and attacking our medical condition. It is not a lifestyle nor an identity but a birth defect. If you are happy with your gender and sex, that is fine. Some of us are not and need those medical and legal procedures to correct those things.

I did not choose to be a transgendered person, I am who I am and always will be... I have how ever chosen to live as the person I am

In light of my very own special personal hell, I will not be told that I am not making an intelligent, healthy, wise decision. I will agree to disagree.

Those who do not have the history of feeling the inner torture because the core identity does not match the vessel carrying that identity will NEVER grasp that the need is neither a decision nor a choice.  Well, I guess one could call it a choice with regard to whether one chooses to live or die...which is to say it is NOT a choice or decision. 

This was NEVER about being able to play dress-up.  It was ALWAYS about addressing a medical condition.  Some of us DO subscribe to the binary constructs.  I am NOT a 'transgendered' person and never was.  I AM a lesbian with a previous transsexual condition that was remedied MANY years ago via medical/surgical intervention.       

Britney nails it with her comments. 

Quote from: Britney_413 on May 10, 2011, 03:52:22 AM
What a bunch of nonsense. If you are comfortable living a gender variant life, that is fine. The topic as I read it was about a transsexual transition. Transsexualism is a medical condition of being born in the wrong sex, with the brain of one sex, and the body of the other. It is not a "gender identity" or "gender expression." Don't tell me that there is no such thing as being "only female" or "only male." You are wrong. For you to come here and tell me that I and others with a transsexual medical condition would have it that being "only one gender" is "very unrealistic" is a bunch of BS and is an attack on who we are. And who are you to call these steps that I and others take to have the bodies we were always meant to be "superficial." Stop misrepresenting and attacking our medical condition. It is not a lifestyle nor an identity but a birth defect. If you are happy with your gender and sex, that is fine. Some of us are not and need those medical and legal procedures to correct those things.

Amen, sister!

Quote from: Dawn D. on May 10, 2011, 10:52:36 AM


Amen, sister!

Seconded

I'm not at all certain that SpaceyGirl was attacking anyone. I think an emotionally fuelled reaction, or the internet nature of trying to interpret someone else's point of view when you only have the bare words to make sense of, has possibly led to a misunderstanding on certain points.

She didn't say that there is no such thing as being only male or only female, only that she doesn't believe in it. That's open to interpretation, and as it relates to herself and her feelings about herself, who's to say that her beliefs are invalid? Certainly no more or less than anyone else's feelings about themselves. She did not say that no one can be only male or only female.

And also, she didn't call the steps taken by people to transition 'superficial', she actually said that to say that taking those steps is all transition is about, is superficial.

This is the trouble with forums, the meaning is often lost in the words. Britney_413, I understand totally where you're coming from, but I think you may be seeing an attack which isn't there.

Let's try and keep it civil, folks. :)

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 10, 2011, 12:39:20 PM
Edit: You all do realize that SpaceyGirl is 19 right? Not that that necessarily makes a difference, but...

In a word: NO. 

But hey, thanks for reminding me again that I probably made the right choice walking away from the 'gender community' back in the 90s when I had my medical condition remedied...

Medical/surgical intervention allowed the vessel to match the core identity.  To say that HRT and surgery was simply superficial is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard/read in quite some time. 

Quote from: Virginia M on May 10, 2011, 04:38:59 AM
I did not choose to be a transgendered person, I am who I am and always will be... I have how ever chosen to live as the person I am

This sums it up perfectly for me - thx Virginia!

Years of internal conflict between knowing who I was and am, and what others perceived and expected me to be, has cost me hours, days, months, years of guilt, regret, fear, anxiety, confusion, self-pity which I will never get back.

But that's in the past. I am FINALLY embracing the feminine identity I buried every chance I had.

I am choosing to live the rest of my life as a woman. That's my right and my decision.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 10, 2011, 12:11:42 PM
I'm not at all certain that SpaceyGirl was attacking anyone. I think an emotionally fuelled reaction, or the internet nature of trying to interpret someone else's point of view when you only have the bare words to make sense of, has possibly led to a misunderstanding on certain points.

She didn't say that there is no such thing as being only male or only female, only that she doesn't believe in it. That's open to interpretation, and as it relates to herself and her feelings about herself, who's to say that her beliefs are invalid? Certainly no more or less than anyone else's feelings about themselves. She did not say that no one can be only male or only female.

And also, she didn't call the steps taken by people to transition 'superficial', she actually said that to say that taking those steps is all transition is about, is superficial.

This is the trouble with forums, the meaning is often lost in the words. Britney_413, I understand totally where you're coming from, but I think you may be seeing an attack which isn't there.

Let's try and keep it civil, folks. :)

well, thank you... that's exactly what i meant. my only point was to try and say that gender is much more than just those things, so i think all of us do fortify our genders from very early in our lives. i'm supporting that transitioning is not a decision. we all handle the dysphoria  in our own way, and i see that as an expression of an individual. you had to think a little to get the idea of what i said. gender is much more than just what's on the surface.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 10, 2011, 02:07:33 PM
Well it would be if she'd actually said that. To elaborate on Sephirah's point, Spacey said, though rather unclearly due to her odd punctuation, that to limit the concept of transition to only these set things (dress, name change, hormones, srs) is superficial. I.e. she is arguing not that SRS and HRT are unimportant, but that they are not all that is important. She is using "superficial" in that context to mean "incomplete"  - not "meaningless," as you and others assumed. The piece you missed was the "all about," which is what "superficial" modifies, without that your interpretation would have been correct.

To continue with the translation, she then goes on to say "there's many more ways people express their transition." Again confirming her argument that the above items (dress, name change, hormones, srs) are an incomplete picture of transition. She also indicates here that she is not saying that this is the case for everyone. The way the sentence is worded, she is only saying that for at least some people, transition can be different than the above list of items ("more ways" - indicates alternatives, not replacements). The addition of "i know i've done it" again confirms that she is trying to broaden rather than shift the concept of transition - mainly in order to include herself.

The next line which seems to bother you all so much "only being a male or only a female. that is very unrealistic" is certainly somewhat unclear. But given the context of the preceding line "i know i've done it," and the following line "how you express your gender identity can manifest itself in many ways." The indication is that she means that the gender binary is not for everyone, and not that the gender binary is not for anyone. I think the reverse interpretation is much more of a stretch, as nothing previously indicates such a belief - and the "many ways" implies an openness to a variety of ways of being, which should include binary identities as well.

What you and Dawn D. and JessicaR and Britney_413 have done is take an unclear passage written by a teenager who is trying to indicate that her own transition is not the same as everyone else's and interpreted it through the lens of your ongoing confrontation with certain transgender advocates who believe that all gender identity is fluid. The "crock of crap" here is all in your own heads. You are, frankly, acting like bullies.

Really I shouldn't get involved and should just leave you to your... questionable behaviour, but I guess reading too many fantasy books as a kid has made me believe I'm a knight errant. So shove off you black-hearted villains. :P

If the text isn't clear, how about next time you ask politely for a clarification?

On the other side of things - SpaceyGirl, people would have a rather easier time understanding you, if you at least tried to write in complete sentences. My poor editor's soul is traumatized by what the internet is doing to writing.

thank you for that. in the first sentence i used the commas because i was trying to make a series of things. i try to watch carefully of that.

Sarah7 said,

QuoteWhat you and Dawn D. and JessicaR and Britney_413 have done is take an unclear passage written by a teenager who is trying to indicate that her own transition is not the same as everyone else's and interpreted it through the lens of your ongoing confrontation with certain transgender advocates who believe that all gender identity is fluid. The "crock of crap" here is all in your own heads. You are, frankly, acting like bullies.

With all due respect, Sarah, you are unfairly categorizing me. (I'll only speak for my self as I do not know any of the others in the list you gave). Whether or not Spaceygirl is a teenager is really irrelevant. In taking what she wrote at it's core face value, deducting for the fact that you cannot read the inflection in her head a she wrote it, her comment was more of a poo-pooing in the thought that transition is a very important aspect of being transsexual. If she wishes to embrace her gender identity as that of being "fluid" I have no problem with that. I don't judge her or anyone else in their "choice". Her comments were not just about her as you might wish for us to believe, they were quite easily seen to be transmitted toward all of us.

What I would consider as devaluing another persons irrefutable need to transition as being superficial, regardless of that persons gender identity, or medical issue, is superfluous. For a transsexual what she described:

Quotetransitioning is not all about changing your name, dressing in the clothes that match your gender identity, taking cross sex hormones, and eventually getting srs.

, is anything but superficial! For these reasons and others we have to transition and identify in the binary. It's just in the core of who we are.

If she feels it's superficial for her needs, that's fine. But, suggesting that as a overall general assumption, is not.

Further, she states:

Quotei simply don't believe in only being a male or only a female. that is very unrealistic

.

It may be unrealistic in her evaluation. It is not so, in mine. And, once again. I do not judge her for her "choice" to express her gender in whatever manner is appropriate for her/him, since it seems she's neither completely. Yet, I am a woman only! And, as such, it is completely realistic to be only female.

Now, I don't believe I've taken her out of context in any way. Yes, she's young. No, she doesn't get a pass for her opinion's based upon her youth. If anything, this is a teachable moment, and I feel this has been represented fairly, respectfully and honestly.


As for reading inflection,

Quote"The "crock of crap" here is all in your own heads. You are, frankly, acting like bullies."

I don't think I like your tone. LOL! It's not "bullying" to make an assessment of someone else's writing unless there are chastisements and threatening advancements incorporated into the dialog. I have never "bullied" anyone and never would. My discourse is always done so with respect of the other person's feelings. Or, at least that is my intent. I have called a few people out for what they have written, mostly away from this sight, and I have been accused of 'attacking' at least one blogers writing. After careful analysis of such, I apologized to her. Publicly. If I'm wrong, I'm a big enough girl to admit so. But, in this instance I feel you've stepped over the line in such accusations. My kinsmen-ship of Britney's comments, were and are a reflection of how I perceived what was written by Spaceygirl. There's no disrespect in that. Even if she is young.



Dawn

And again we see the divide between those that want to equate the transgender lifestyle to what the transsexual goes through.  For those of us who suffered from a transsexual condition, competent medical intervention WAS a necessity as was going through what some classify as a transition.  It was in no way a superficial cure.  And of the true transsexuals I have known in my lifetime, the blended genders some espouse was not and does not cut it in our lives.

to go back to what was originally posted, let's look at the operative clause:

Quotetransitioning is not all about changing your name, dressing in the clothes that match your gender identity, taking cross sex hormones, and eventually getting srs. to say that is very superficial

at its most basic level, all four of those items are ESSENTIAL to getting on with life for a person with a transsexual medical condition.  Does it take a 'legal' name change?  No...although in the post-9/11 world, it is likely more difficult for people to change documents without a court order.  Mode of dress- this was NEVER about playing dress-up for most of us.  HRT and SRS- an absolute necessity.  There was no choice of in-between allowing for a comfort level.  It was about getting on with our lives. 


   

well, what is "only a woman?" sure, i identify as a female with my place in the society and culture. that's where i'm more comfortable. do you think my whole life has to do with an identity of a female? i would hope not. i'm multidimensional, and i'm glad. i'm happy to say i'm not just a cardboard cut out that is only one thing all the time. gender is not just male versus female. because then it just turns into a power struggle of who can be the most "legitimate" as one or the other. no thank you, not for me.

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 10, 2011, 04:47:20 PM
well, what is "only a woman?" sure, i identify as a female with my place in the society and culture. that's where i'm more comfortable. do you think my whole life has to do with an identity of a female? i would hope not. i'm multidimensional, and i'm glad. i'm happy to say i'm not just a cardboard cut out that is only one thing all the time. gender is not just male versus female. because then it just turns into a power struggle of who can be the most "legitimate" as one or the other. no thank you, not for me.

The bolded would suggest that you would not be the true transsexual for whom notions of transition are contemplated in this thread.  It you can be content going back and forth between identities, fine...but it also suggests that you know little about what some of us in this thread had to contend with and why the very items you label as superficial were, in fact, medically necessary components. 

I do not subscribe to the gender->-bleeped-<- concept (which loosely seems to be what you are content to do) and none of the true transsexuals I have known in my lifetime subscribe to anything other than a binary construct.  Fluidity does exist for some of them in the area of sexual orientation, although there never was any movement for me- I was a baby dyke from my middle school days on forward (generally when people first discover sexual attractions). 

Some of us keep getting hit over the head with Rule 10, but this is precisely the reason why some of us felt the rule hamstrings the conversation.  We get people who have barely been alive as long as some of us have been post-operative telling us what is and is not 'superficial.'  I mean jesus-h-effing-christ-on-a-popcicle-stick, this was a thread premised upon an article talking about a NEED for transsexuals and we have people chiming in about gender fluidity.     

Quote from: Ann Onymous on May 10, 2011, 05:02:04 PM
The bolded would suggest that you would not be the true transsexual for whom notions of transition are contemplated in this thread.  It you can be content going back and forth between identities, fine...but it also suggests that you know little about what some of us in this thread had to contend with and why the very items you label as superficial were, in fact, medically necessary components. 

I do not subscribe to the gender->-bleeped-<- concept (which loosely seems to be what you are content to do) and none of the true transsexuals I have known in my lifetime subscribe to anything other than a binary construct.  Fluidity does exist for some of them in the area of sexual orientation, although there never was any movement for me- I was a baby dyke from my middle school days on forward (generally when people first discover sexual attractions). 

Some of us keep getting hit over the head with Rule 10, but this is precisely the reason why some of us felt the rule hamstrings the conversation.  We get people who have barely been alive as long as some of us have been post-operative telling us what is and is not 'superficial.'  I mean jesus-h-effing-christ-on-a-popcicle-stick, this was a thread premised upon an article talking about a NEED for transsexuals and we have people chiming in about gender fluidity.     

ok, now you're using a new word "true transsexuals." i'm going to stop here, because it's just obvious where this is all going. i would just like to say i don't appreciate the disrespect, but i will thank Sarah7 and Sephirah for respecting my 2 cents...

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 10, 2011, 04:47:20 PM
well, what is "only a woman?" sure, i identify as a female with my place in the society and culture. that's where i'm more comfortable. do you think my whole life has to do with an identity of a female? i would hope not. i'm multidimensional, and i'm glad. i'm happy to say i'm not just a cardboard cut out that is only one thing all the time. gender is not just male versus female. because then it just turns into a power struggle of who can be the most "legitimate" as one or the other. no thank you, not for me.

This isn't meant to be an attack, but I fear you're confusing a few points here and it's throwing off a bunch of people.  Are you advocating an end to the gender binary or simply talking about adding some non-conforming behaviors to your repertoire?  Because it's a far cry from "I'm a girl who likes video games and cars" to "there should be no genders at all and let's end gender typecasting."  You seem to be saying both at once.

The gender binary may, in fact, be a root of power struggle as any binary can be: rich/poor, powerful/powerless, capitalists/socialists, normal folk/Justin Bieber... the list goes on.  But have you also considered the binary as the root of love?  The beginning of coming together and understanding?  Regardless of whether it's "I'm a girl, you're a boy," "I'm a girl, you're a girl," or "I'm a boy, you're a boy," it's a root of attraction.

Hell, I'm not a typical girl either, but I'm definitely a girl.  I love the occasional video game, I play drums, I drool over every original Mini Cooper I see, and I can fix most things around the house after growing up helping my dad in construction.  But I loooooove pink and purple, admiring flowers, hugs, shopping, and dancing.  That's multidimensionality within the binary...

I posted in another thread that I was never a "man" who became a woman; I was born a woman with a birth defect I since had corrected.  It was a dreadfully frightening thing to endure, but I was compelled to do so or literally die trying.  The failure of some to comprehend the urgency of this in no way negates it's validity.  I guess it then depends on if you think matters of life or death are any kind of real choice.  Call it a choice if you like, but if I were eaten up with cancer and there was a cure available, I would take it no matter what I had to do to get it rather than suffer the alternative.

There is a transsexual medical condition that has nothing to do with lifestyle, dressing up, or taking recreational hormones.  I would even venture to say that many of us who seek and obtain physical correction for our medical condition do subscribe to the gender binary, otherwise why would we be so desperate to change our bodies to match our brains? Again, failure to comprehend this driving need in no way negates its validity or it's cold reality.

"Only a woman" is not a man or something in between.  It's not rocket science.  Yes, everyone I would hope is multidimensional in personality and interests, but some of us when it comes to the single aspect of our gender are simply men and women, and we do what we must do in order to be who we are. Those who are happy as something else should by all means follow their own dreams and choices, but never state emphatically that we are all just like they are, because where is the multidimensionality in that?

Quote from: Ann Onymous on May 10, 2011, 04:21:31 PM
And again we see the divide between those that want to equate the transgender lifestyle to what the transsexual goes through.

There isn't a transgender "lifestyle", being transgender is a legitimate identity and/or experience for some people here, which has its considerable conflicts and/or internal struggles. I feel that using the word lifestyle has a minimizing effect.

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on May 10, 2011, 05:30:05 PM
There isn't a transgender "lifestyle", being transgender is a legitimate identity and/or experience for some people here, which has its considerable conflicts and/or internal struggles. I feel that using the word lifestyle has a minimizing effect.

The article discussed transition as it applies to transsexuals.  Despite that we have people coming in this thread talking about gender fluidity.  And in that context, as applied to the article, 'transgender' is, IMO, a lifestyle. 

If I am going to be accused of 'minimizing' then some others in this thread sure need to recognize the minimizing they are doing when they claim necessary treatment for OUR medical conditions was superficial in nature.  I (along, clearly with several in the thread) identified as a FEMALE from our earliest recollections.  There is no 'in-between' for us.  Quite frankly, I have nothing in common for those that can be content with a fluidity in their appearance and manner of life...   

Quote from: JungianZoe on May 10, 2011, 05:13:57 PM
This isn't meant to be an attack, but I fear you're confusing a few points here and it's throwing off a bunch of people.  Are you advocating an end to the gender binary or simply talking about adding some non-conforming behaviors to your repertoire?  Because it's a far cry from "I'm a girl who likes video games and cars" to "there should be no genders at all and let's end gender typecasting."  You seem to be saying both at once.

The gender binary may, in fact, be a root of power struggle as any binary can be: rich/poor, powerful/powerless, capitalists/socialists, normal folk/Justin Bieber... the list goes on.  But have you also considered the binary as the root of love?  The beginning of coming together and understanding?  Regardless of whether it's "I'm a girl, you're a boy," "I'm a girl, you're a girl," or "I'm a boy, you're a boy," it's a root of attraction.

Hell, I'm not a typical girl either, but I'm definitely a girl.  I love the occasional video game, I play drums, I drool over every original Mini Cooper I see, and I can fix most things around the house after growing up helping my dad in construction.  But I loooooove pink and purple, admiring flowers, hugs, shopping, and dancing.  That's multidimensionality within the binary...

to answer that, people are mistaking the jist of what i'm saying. when i mention my identity as female, and say it's not all i am. people are going into male versus female. as if me saying that my female identity is not everything about me as an individual means i can't be considered a female. an identity as a female is one part of who i am, forget about the binary, and leave the male vs female piece out. that's the problem. i'm not saying there is no such thing as male or female. what i'm saying is that my identity as female is only important when someone asks what gender identify as, so i give them the name of it. other than that, how i express myself comes natural, and i'm not worried about what a male is or what a female is. i'm just being me. the thing that i think needs to end is these rule enforcements on what makes you "real" as on or the other. why does it even matter? i just know how i'm comfortable living, and that's just that for me. does that make sense? i believe gender is only really there when people are consciously thinking of it and want it to be there for the sake of arguement. gender is not tangible. it's something used metaphorically.

Going through childhood as a girl brain in a boy body is hard. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to fix it.  Still, I knew. Something inside told me this was not right, someone made a horrible mistake, I should have been just like my other female friends, I should have been able to dress like them, wear my hair like them, act like them, and be treated like them.  Instead, I was scolded, punished, told that little boys don't act like that, don't dress like that, don't wear their hair like that, don't play with those toys.  And so, ever the good little trooper, I tried to conform, to fit in, if only for the sake of my physical well-being to keep from being punished and tormented by those even more ignorant of my condition than I was.

But those feelings of inconguity never went away.  No matter how hard I tried to suppress them (because that's what boys are supposed to do, or don't do), there was something broken inside me that would never let me have peace with pretending to be something I wasn't.  Throw in the massive confusion brought about by early male-oriented socialization, compound it further with a poison hormone that did horribly wicked things to my mind AND my body, and it's a wonder I lived through any of it.  But throughout it all, inside I still KNEW.

Three million years of human history has proven sexual dimorphism to be a successful evolutionary trait.  It's cross-cultural.  It isn't something someone made up just to befuddle the gender-confused or so one half of the population could lord it over the other half.  The truth is only a very small percentage of the human population ever even questions it.  And no wonder- it's in our genes as well as our jeans, it's in the very chemical and physical makeup and wiring of our brains and bodies.  Yin and Yang exist with all the power that the aforementioned three million years of evolution can put behind them.  And that is why, despite all outward appearances, my female brain could never find peace in a male body.  Something was broken and I had to fix it, or die trying.

Girls have vaginae, boys have penises.  Girl brains born into boy bodies unfortunately have penises too, but generally find this a totally unacceptable condition in which to live, so we go to great lengths to remedy this situation.  And thank the gods, there is a cure of sorts.  It isn't exactly perfect, but it's good enough to make an intolerable life livable again.  And once the cure has been taken, most of us who have taken it go on to live happy, fulfilled lives.  The world finally sees us on the outside as we are on the inside, and even more importantly we know, even if no one ever sees between our legs, that the upside down world we lived in all our lives is finally right side up again.

So despite the antithetic socialization, despite the inborn poison hormones, despite a million and one things to the contrary forcing us in the wrong direction, we do know when something isn't right with our assigned gender.  As I said previously, I would venture to assert that those of us who undergo the rather drastic measures of physical sex correction surgery believe quite strongly in the gender binary model.  We know that what is on the outside is wrong and needs to be fixed to bring our brains and the rest of our bodies into alignment.  The very fact that this extreme cure works gives credence to this.  It's all well and good to speculate endlessly on what gender means or how it is interpreted by the particular culture in which we live, but each of us must deal with the hard, cold, physical reality we are born into.

I'm very glad there are men and women.  As a heterosexual woman I love it when a man I'm attracted to behaves romantically towards me, and when he treats me as though I'm special, and when he sees me as sexually desirable.  I love every aspect of being a woman, even the parts that hurt.  Most of all, I love that my outsides fit my insides, and I am free to be who I was born to be: a complete female in this mixed up, muddled up, shook up (but still gender binary) world.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 10, 2011, 06:21:50 PM......... Being born with transsexualism literally means having a miss-matched brain and crotch, to put it in the most basic terms. (I hate the more philosophical "mind and body," as if the mind wasn't part of the body.) I was born with a brain that is designed to run a female estrogen-based system, not the testosterone-based system that I endured..............

Now we're in agreement!


Dawn

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 10, 2011, 06:38:02 PM
Going through childhood as a girl brain in a boy body is hard. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to fix it.  Still, I knew. Something inside told me this was not right, someone made a horrible mistake, I should have been just like my other female friends, I should have been able to dress like them, wear my hair like them, act like them, and be treated like them.  Instead, I was scolded, punished, told that little boys don't act like that, don't dress like that, don't wear their hair like that, don't play with those toys.  And so, ever the good little trooper, I tried to conform, to fit in, if only for the sake of my physical well-being to keep from being punished and tormented by those even more ignorant of my condition than I was.

But those feelings of inconguity never went away.  No matter how hard I tried to suppress them (because that's what boys are supposed to do, or don't do), there was something broken inside me that would never let me have peace with pretending to be something I wasn't.  Throw in the massive confusion brought about by early male-oriented socialization, compound it further with a poison hormone that did horribly wicked things to my mind AND my body, and it's a wonder I lived through any of it.  But throughout it all, inside I still KNEW.

This really hits home for me  :)  Thank you Chloe

Hugs

- Virginia

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 10, 2011, 06:38:02 PM
Going through childhood as a girl brain in a boy body is hard. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to fix it.  Still, I knew. Something inside told me this was not right, someone made a horrible mistake, I should have been just like my other female friends, I should have been able to dress like them, wear my hair like them, act like them, and be treated like them.  Instead, I was scolded, punished, told that little boys don't act like that, don't dress like that, don't wear their hair like that, don't play with those toys.  And so, ever the good little trooper, I tried to conform, to fit in, if only for the sake of my physical well-being to keep from being punished and tormented by those even more ignorant of my condition than I was.

But those feelings of inconguity never went away.  No matter how hard I tried to suppress them (because that's what boys are supposed to do, or don't do), there was something broken inside me that would never let me have peace with pretending to be something I wasn't.  Throw in the massive confusion brought about by early male-oriented socialization, compound it further with a poison hormone that did horribly wicked things to my mind AND my body, and it's a wonder I lived through any of it.  But throughout it all, inside I still KNEW.

Three million years of human history has proven sexual dimorphism to be a successful evolutionary trait.  It's cross-cultural.  It isn't something someone made up just to befuddle the gender-confused or so one half of the population could lord it over the other half.  The truth is only a very small percentage of the human population ever even questions it.  And no wonder- it's in our genes as well as our jeans, it's in the very chemical and physical makeup and wiring of our brains and bodies.  Yin and Yang exist with all the power that the aforementioned three million years of evolution can put behind them.  And that is why, despite all outward appearances, my female brain could never find peace in a male body.  Something was broken and I had to fix it, or die trying.

Girls have vaginae, boys have penises.  Girl brains born into boy bodies unfortunately have penises too, but generally find this a totally unacceptable condition in which to live, so we go to great lengths to remedy this situation.  And thank the gods, there is a cure of sorts.  It isn't exactly perfect, but it's good enough to make an intolerable life livable again.  And once the cure has been taken, most of us who have taken it go on to live happy, fulfilled lives.  The world finally sees us on the outside as we are on the inside, and even more importantly we know, even if no one ever sees between our legs, that the upside down world we lived in all our lives is finally right side up again.

So despite the antithetic socialization, despite the inborn poison hormones, despite a million and one things to the contrary forcing us in the wrong direction, we do know when something isn't right with our assigned gender.  As I said previously, I would venture to assert that those of us who undergo the rather drastic measures of physical sex correction surgery believe quite strongly in the gender binary model.  We know that what is on the outside is wrong and needs to be fixed to bring our brains and the rest of our bodies into alignment.  The very fact that this extreme cure works gives credence to this.  It's all well and good to speculate endlessly on what gender means or how it is interpreted by the particular culture in which we live, but each of us must deal with the hard, cold, physical reality we are born into.

I'm very glad there are men and women.  As a heterosexual woman I love it when a man I'm attracted to is behaves romantically towards me, and when he treats me as though I'm special, and when he sees me as sexually desirable.  I love every aspect of being a woman, even the parts that hurt.  Most of all, I love that my outsides fit my insides, and I am free to be who I was born to be: a complete female in this mixed up, muddled up, shook up (but still gender binary) world.

i believe that, but i 've not been worried about the gender binary lately, so it just doesn't matter to me. yes, there is differences whether you're aware of them or not, but i choose to see that i have many identities as a human being, and not just one gender identity (female.)

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 10, 2011, 06:21:50 PM
To Dawn D., my apologies, I overstated the case. Yet, I do not think stating that someone else's position is "a bunch of nonsense" is particularly courteous behaviour, nor does it suggest to me a desire for a "teachable moment." And of course, you agreed with that statement. But perhaps I should have kept my response to only include Ann Onymous's "the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard/read in quite some time" description which was what bothered me far more than anything else.

Sarah,

No worries. I can accept the guilt by association for not having edited out the more inciteful language. Essentially, it was Britney's premise I was agreeing to. Not her less than flattering language. I'll be more careful about my quoting selections in the future!

Thank you, for your candor!


Dawn 

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 10, 2011, 05:58:48 PM
to answer that, people are mistaking the jist of what i'm saying. when i mention my identity as female, and say it's not all i am. people are going into male versus female. as if me saying that my female identity is not everything about me as an individual means i can't be considered a female. an identity as a female is one part of who i am, forget about the binary, and leave the male vs female piece out. that's the problem. i'm not saying there is no such thing as male or female. what i'm saying is that my identity as female is only important when someone asks what gender identify as, so i give them the name of it. other than that, how i express myself comes natural, and i'm not worried about what a male is or what a female is. i'm just being me. the thing that i think needs to end is these rule enforcements on what makes you "real" as on or the other. why does it even matter? i just know how i'm comfortable living, and that's just that for me. does that make sense? i believe gender is only really there when people are consciously thinking of it and want it to be there for the sake of arguement. gender is not tangible. it's something used metaphorically.

Not to be contrary, but nobody here has brought up anything along the lines of male v. female.  Those of us who subscribe to the gender binary say that we have a definite preference for which side people identify us as, but we don't see it as "I'm a female, males suck!" or vice versa.  People who think that way have issues that reach far beyond transsexuality.  I'm not denying the existence of political fights for gender equality that go back decades, simply stating that most of us peacefully fall into the gender binary because that's our path in life.  We can become who we are without hating what we were.  Okay, so some do hate what they were, but it doesn't mean that feeling extends to every other member of their birth sex.

For example, being in the binary means, for me, that I wouldn't want to stumble upon a group of guys, have them put up their hands for a high five, and then treat me like a dude.  I'm a woman, and guys don't treat women that way.  It's not man v. woman, it just makes the group members feel bonded in a commonality that they're comfortable with.  I'm not in their commonality, I'm female.  A binary-identifying FtM would probably be thrilled if this happened to him.

On the flip, I'm sure an FtM would be equally appalled if a group of women engaged him in wedding dress discussion.  Again, that's not woman v. man, just a commonality between women, and I'm pretty sure an FtM wouldn't want women treating him like that.  He's a man, not a woman.  But as an MtF, I'd be ecstatic to receive such an invitation.

These are tangible gender differences that exist beyond a power struggle, and they're the little things that mean the world to those of us in the binary.  They're also the little things that are never going to go away because of the pleasure these acts give to those who participate in them, triggering the release of dopamine in the brain's reward center and making us feel good.  The opposite acts for our gender rarely trigger this, and may in fact ignite a sympathetic nervous system (aka, stress) response in the binary-identified transsexual.  These reactions are quite tangible and can be caused by gender-related environmental and social cues!

We in the binary express ourselves naturally as a member of our gender, and yet are multifaceted in our interests and actions (I have a cis girlfriend who simply loves belching contests, which I get into with her because it brings her joy and makes us both laugh).  We're as natural in our lives as you are in yours.

Now I understand that you may not have that stress response to gender cues and may derive pleasure from all forms of gender-guided social interaction.  You experience gender as more fluid and you're perfectly entitled to that, as well as having the right to discuss it.  Why I think there's such an upheaval toward what you say is that we transsexuals in the binary experience what can be crippling stress in the face of mismatched social interaction.  Our reactions to stressors are, by nature, much more defensive than our reactions to pleasant stimuli, so there's quite a bit of backlash against the opinion that the thing that causes us so much pain doesn't even exist.  Our pain isn't metaphorical, it's real.  It kills too many of us.

I'm not saying, by any means, to not voice your opinion.  Just be careful how you word things (I'm anal about doing that myself) so that a casual comment doesn't cause hurt to others.

And trust me... that goes for some people on both sides of this argument.  ;)

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 10, 2011, 06:21:50 PM
A lot of people, including myself, experienced rather a lot of trauma related to our GID. Many of us have suicide attempts, self-harm, drug abuse, eating disorders, and more in our past as a result of the dissonance within our bodies. Not to mention those that have suffered rejection by their families and friends, bigotry from their employers, and violence in their communities. Anyway, all that is just to explain why, when you suggest that our experience of gender is not tangible only metaphorical, many of us are going to react with some... hostility.

You wrote that while I was penning my response above... and given what I wound up redundantly saying, I couldn't agree more. ;D

Quote from: JungianZoe on May 10, 2011, 06:57:02 PM
Not to be contrary, but nobody here has brought up anything along the lines of male v. female.  Those of us who subscribe to the gender binary say that we have a definite preference for which side people identify us as, but we don't see it as "I'm a female, males suck!" or vice versa.  People who think that way have issues that reach far beyond transsexuality.  I'm not denying the existence of political fights for gender equality that go back decades, simply stating that most of us peacefully fall into the gender binary because that's our path in life.  We can become who we are without hating what we were.  Okay, so some do hate what they were, but it doesn't mean that feeling extends to every other member of their birth sex.

For example, being in the binary means, for me, that I wouldn't want to stumble upon a group of guys, have them put up their hands for a high five, and then treat me like a dude.  I'm a woman, and guys don't treat women that way.  It's not man v. woman, it just makes the group members feel bonded in a commonality that they're comfortable with.  I'm not in their commonality, I'm female.  A binary-identifying FtM would probably be thrilled if this happened to him.

On the flip, I'm sure an FtM would be equally appalled if a group of women engaged him in wedding dress discussion.  Again, that's not woman v. man, just a commonality between women, and I'm pretty sure an FtM wouldn't want women treating him like that.  He's a man, not a woman.  But as an MtF, I'd be ecstatic to receive such an invitation.

These are tangible gender differences that exist beyond a power struggle, and they're the little things that mean the world to those of us in the binary.  They're also the little things that are never going to go away because of the pleasure these acts give to those who participate in them, triggering the release of dopamine in the brain's reward center and making us feel good.  The opposite acts for our gender rarely trigger this, and may in fact ignite a sympathetic nervous system (aka, stress) response in the binary-identified transsexual.  These reactions are quite tangible and can be caused by gender-related environmental and social cues!

We in the binary express ourselves naturally as a member of our gender, and yet are multifaceted in our interests and actions (I have a cis girlfriend who simply loves belching contests, which I get into with her because it brings her joy and makes us both laugh).  We're as natural in our lives as you are in yours.

Now I understand that you may not have that stress response to gender cues and may derive pleasure from all forms of gender-guided social interaction.  You experience gender as more fluid and you're perfectly entitled to that, as well as having the right to discuss it.  Why I think there's such an upheaval toward what you say is that we transsexuals in the binary experience what can be crippling stress in the face of mismatched social interaction.  Our reactions to stressors are, by nature, much more defensive than our reactions to pleasant stimuli, so there's quite a bit of backlash against the opinion that the thing that causes us so much pain doesn't even exist.  Our pain isn't metaphorical, it's real.  It kills too many of us.

I'm not saying, by any means, to not voice your opinion.  Just be careful how you word things (I'm anal about doing that myself) so that a casual comment doesn't cause hurt to others.

And trust me... that goes for some people on both sides of this argument.  ;)

*yawnnn* i'm really tired, and am just going to take a nap now. too much thinking for me. where will i be on the binary? sleeping.

A lot of people confuse gender and sex. Gender often is fluid even for TS people. A lot of gender is cultural. Heck, I'm a bit of a tomboy myself. I like guns and motorcycles and some other "male" things. Yet in the deepest core of my being I know I'm a female and desperately want SRS. Had I been born physically female, I'd still have the same interests, personality, etc., but I'd still be a female. This is the difference. A TG person may have a gender primarily opposite their birth sex but are comfortable with their bodies not wanting HRT or SRS. A TS wants desperately to change their bodies because their physical sex does not match their brain sex. Gender is often but not always related here. This is why it is a physical medical condition and not simply a "gender identity."

I've noticed the same thing here on Susan's as I saw on another site I got banned from. Both sites had all these different categories (i.e. TG, TS, CD, IS, etc.) which is a really good thing. You see, a lot of us end up in the questioning phase and may even incorrectly think we are one of the other groups before we come to terms fully with who we are. That is fine. Here's what happens though which is why this very thread here resulted in a heated debate. You see, someone from one group will go and post in another group that they don't even identify with and then attempt to give advice that they really aren't in a position to give or they will share there opinions and feelings yet those opinions by their very nature are off topic since they don't even identify with that group.

For instance, I never post or even read the crossdresser forum or the FTM sections because they don't apply to me. I would be in no position to give accurate advice or share any kind of opinions they could identify with because I'm not a CD nor am I an FTM TS. What happens though is we have a thread such as this one that is specifically about a transsexual transition and then someone who is not a transitioning transsexual will post giving "their experience" when it is automatically off topic since the thread is about experiences that wouldn't even apply to them. It goes on and on and on. It isn't just the internet but real life and this is why a lot of TS people are tired of the whole "TG blend" because people are being drowned out by others who are speaking on things they aren't qualified to speak on. In real life, I have gone to these all-inclusive TG groups, etc. and someone has to criticise me for "being a lesbian" or questioning why I would need SRS. That's because it doesn't fit them yet because they are in the same alphabet soup as me they are now entitled to comment on my needs when they don't even share my perspective. As long as people continue to post in areas that they don't identify with and give their two cents, it will always result in debates and disagreements and likely frustration.

I do think maybe the mods/admins need to step in at some point and sort this all out. There already is a TG section for TG topics, a TS section for TS topics, etc. Here in the News/O&E it is generic yet this thread is specifically about a TS transition and now we have someone talking about non-TS issues. That right there is what I see being the problem. If the topic isn't about you, why are you commenting on it? Or at least if you do comment on it, you should be extremely careful as to make it clear that you are coming from a different background with a different situation.

I'm a white girl. I don't go to black meetings and talk to them about what it means to be black. I wouldn't want them to do the same to me either.

Quote from: Britney_413 on May 11, 2011, 02:34:15 AM
I've noticed the same thing here on Susan's as I saw on another site I got banned from. Both sites had all these different categories (i.e. TG, TS, CD, IS, etc.) which is a really good thing. You see, a lot of us end up in the questioning phase and may even incorrectly think we are one of the other groups before we come to terms fully with who we are. That is fine. Here's what happens though which is why this very thread here resulted in a heated debate. You see, someone from one group will go and post in another group that they don't even identify with and then attempt to give advice that they really aren't in a position to give or they will share there opinions and feelings yet those opinions by their very nature are off topic since they don't even identify with that group.

For instance, I never post or even read the crossdresser forum or the FTM sections because they don't apply to me. I would be in no position to give accurate advice or share any kind of opinions they could identify with because I'm not a CD nor am I an FTM TS. What happens though is we have a thread such as this one that is specifically about a transsexual transition and then someone who is not a transitioning transsexual will post giving "their experience" when it is automatically off topic since the thread is about experiences that wouldn't even apply to them. It goes on and on and on. It isn't just the internet but real life and this is why a lot of TS people are tired of the whole "TG blend" because people are being drowned out by others who are speaking on things they aren't qualified to speak on. In real life, I have gone to these all-inclusive TG groups, etc. and someone has to criticise me for "being a lesbian" or questioning why I would need SRS. That's because it doesn't fit them yet because they are in the same alphabet soup as me they are now entitled to comment on my needs when they don't even share my perspective. As long as people continue to post in areas that they don't identify with and give their two cents, it will always result in debates and disagreements and likely frustration.

I do think maybe the mods/admins need to step in at some point and sort this all out. There already is a TG section for TG topics, a TS section for TS topics, etc. Here in the News/O&E it is generic yet this thread is specifically about a TS transition and now we have someone talking about non-TS issues. That right there is what I see being the problem. If the topic isn't about you, why are you commenting on it? Or at least if you do comment on it, you should be extremely careful as to make it clear that you are coming from a different background with a different situation.

I'm a white girl. I don't go to black meetings and talk to them about what it means to be black. I wouldn't want them to do the same to me either.

Long post - which deserves a sensible reply so forgive the slight derail here but your points deserve a response. What you say is all true up to a point... However I have three major reservations

Firstly some of us are not pure-blood anything. For example I am intersexed but I was also trans - because contrary to popular belief those two conditions are not mutually exclusive. So I did sort of transition even though perhaps it was not quite so black and white as it is for some people.

If we adopted your suggestion where would I post? I do not entirely fit into intersex because I didn't find out that I was until after I was postop. I first transitioned as a child - then briefly de-transitioned in my teens before re-transitioning as a full adult. Of course because it was "second time around" nobody was that surprised when I did and because I had grown up at least to some extent within my target sex I don't entirely fit in the transsexual group either.

I'm also a natural rebel. If something is always supposed to be done A B C D then you can bet your bottom dollar that I WILL find a way to do it G A X Z (in otherwords completely differently). So part of me likes to defy convention with gender stereotypes - and therefore though I AM NOT IN ANY WAY an Androgyne or a genderqueer I sometimes like to play in their court a little because I find them stimulating.

Obviously I'm not FtM but I like a lot of them and the intersex part of me kind of understands their mindset.

I'm not strictly transgender. My take on that is that my gender was fine - it was my physical sex that was in question, but again I like the discussions that they have and so I find myself posting there too.

So the only two areas that I don't venture into and I know I really don't belong in are the CD and the non-op TS - those two I find I really don't have much to offer for.

I probably need a new category - after years of not fitting properly in to any of the existing labels I now call myself "post corrected cis", and I am guessing that there are those like maybe Northern Jane and Sarah B and in due course perhaps even Helena who might also join this new faction...

Secondly even for "pure-blood" transsexuals it will make a vast difference WHEN you transition. For example I mostly transitioned in childhood and thus, even though I was actually unaware of the intersex aspect, my experience was very different from most of what you go though which is why I don't always fully understand it - for example having "come out" at the age of five I often find myself scratching my head and wondering what the fuss is about and why people find it so difficult...

That brings me on to my final point which is that some of us involve ourselves in threads where perhaps we don't strictly belong because we are genuinely trying to understand - and indeed because sometimes it can (hopefully) be helpful to someone to have an outside point of view on the issue that they are facing. Sometime someone standing just outside the circle can see the thing that you are missing.

So - basically the inclusiveness and blurred boundaries of this forum are, as far as I am concerned, a good thing, and I would resist any suggestion of separatism.

I am literally not allowed to join several other support groups because the intersex ones wont let me in because I transitioned, and the trans ones wont let me join because it turns out I was intersex (even though I didnt know at the time ::)) Ok I could LIE and get in - but why should I have to?

For me the openness of Susan's and the fact that we have these threads which go off into multi pov debates is the thing which I find most positive, and I do not believe I am alone. If we segregated the threads rigidly in the way you propose then, a.) some of us like me would be unfairly excluded entirely and though no fault of our own and b.) all you would be left with were little cliques reinforcing each others comfortable ideas and no one would ever be challenged to think things through a little.

Debate only becomes a problem when people start to attack others or take things personally and feel invalidated. When that happens people should report the post and if we as moderators agree then will will warn or ban the offender.

read "my gender workbook" by Kate Bornstein. that book has broadened my vision on gender. none of us can say what a man should be or what a woman should be, since no two of them are exactly the same. also, none of us have a solid crystallized identity. sure, maybe we always say we are men or women, but who we are as individuals always changes, and is never the same. another identity "the real me." who knows what that is? since we always subtly change and fortify ourselves as individuals, it doesn't work that way. i just know how to be true to myself moment by moment, and that's what i'm going to stick to. who is a "real" anything? that's why i don't believe i always have a gender, which is only my way of looking at it. i feel i only have a gender when it is necessary to bring to my consciousness.

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 11, 2011, 12:34:12 PM
read "my gender workbook" by Kate Bornstein. that book has broadened my vision on gender. none of us can say what a man should be or what a woman should be, since no two of them are exactly the same. also, none of us have a solid crystallized identity. sure, maybe we always say we are men or women, but who we are as individuals always changes, and is never the same. another identity "the real me." who knows what that is? since we always subtly change and fortify ourselves as individuals, it doesn't work that way. i just know how to be true to myself moment by moment, and that's what i'm going to stick to. who is a "real" anything? that's why i don't believe i always have a gender, which is only my way of looking at it. i feel i only have a gender when it is necessary to bring to my consciousness.

I'm quite familiar with Kate (still have a signed copy of Gender Outlaw) and her early writings...liked her as a person (we lost touch a LOOONG time ago) but do not agree with some of her notions. 

But your comments (quoted here) bring us/this thread back to the findamental issue of the differences between those who identify as having had a transsexual condition and those that hold some other gender belief and interjecting that belief into a discussion related to an issue of what amounts to life and death for a person with a transsexual condition. 

Right, I'll jump back in for a moment.

Here where I live they don't even use the Kinsey scale or the transsexual "scale" anymore, the Ph.D's don't use the terminology "true transsexual" in meetings, discussion, or therapy, as far as I have experienced. What they ask me is: "How do you feel?" If they want something more solid they typically draw a line and tell me to indicate to them where I am on that line. I'm sure many of you have had similar experiences. Now, what they put on their papers is different. I saw a "TS 5?!" on one of my papers at the mental hospital as the tech was flipping through my file, and I didn't really understand it at the time.

This speaks to the shifting trends in Trans care, I believe that they are trying to help people achieve happiness with regard to their identity and physical body, and purposely trying inclusiveness without labels in order to help people make sense of the human experience in general. I was told very early on that I would experience almost every identity on the gender continuum in some fashion on my journey through transition, and if I stop to think about it, I am. Especially when considering the fact that I'm bisexual, and a benefit of my sexuality was immediately knowing that sex has nothing to do with the core facets of being trans anything. I am weird, my sexuality is important in so far as I can call it completely unimportant. By the time I'm done with transition my string of letters will look like: (female I.D. at all times) MtAtCDtMtAtF - no word on whether I was born intersexed, but I'm working on fudging a lab result to get into that club too ;) I am in feminine boy / is (s)he trying to dress like a lesbian? mode to the rest of the world and it's kind of fun, but it has no bearing on my need to transition to a place inhabited by women like Valerie and Fairygirl. Jenny's new club does sound exciting though, and it is a possibility.

This is primarily why I say I made a decision: I decided that everything else didn't work. I could play that torturous gender game in fascinating new ways until I died, but none of it changed my sex. I had to try to beat transsexualism any other way I could before I settled on transition. Now I'm happy and scared, but I feel good.

So now that I've gone off on a tangent, and then gone off on a tangent in regard to that tangent, I feel that I personally can't see any excuse for anyone to disrespect anyone's identity, opinion, or try to scare any person out of a thread or forum because they're different (as long as there is no attack). We're not altogether much different anyway, some of us just arrive at the answer to life's important questions in very different ways.

I don't see transitioning as a choice, medical research has shown that TG peoples brains are formed differently to non TG people, I didn't choose for my brain to be like this, neither did I choose to spend my life hating my body.

The choice I made as a teenager was to try & ignore how I think & feel & to do what society expected of me because of my body & that choice became unbearable to live with so i've got no choice but to give in to my thoughts & feelings before my depression reaches a point where I do something really stupid & ultimately final.

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 10, 2011, 05:58:48 PM
i believe gender is only really there when people are consciously thinking of it and want it to be there for the sake of arguement. gender is not tangible. it's something used metaphorically.

  This is just about the biggest crock of ->-bleeped-<- that I've ever read here on Susan's.

  I've learned to stop reading posts that piss me off and that's exactly what I'm going to do with this one.

Quote from: JessicaR on May 11, 2011, 07:14:43 PM
  This is just about the biggest crock of ->-bleeped-<- that I've ever read here on Susan's.

  I've learned to stop reading posts that piss me off and that's exactly what I'm going to do with this one.

do we really need to reintroduce the drama? i've made a more recent post that best words how i've learned about gender. none of what i said was meant to be offensive, only misread.

Might I point out the lady said "I believe".
No where in her statement did she say "You should believe".

I went over this thread a couple times.

No one here has told anyone to think or believe in any particular way. Yet I see alot of defensive backlash that is completely unwarented.

On topic.....
I think (notice I said I think not you think or it is always this way) that for those of us who have a transsexual condition (which can include a small subsect of gender queer/androgyn types like my spouse) transition is not a choice.
Because the choice of transition or die is not really a choice is it?

A reminder from admin; no personal attacks!  :police:

Quote from: cynthialee on May 11, 2011, 09:42:54 PM


Because the choice of transition or die is not really a choice is it?

I guess not (whew I get so tired reading through these discussions!). I know that the point may not be directed at me, but after some reflection I think I agree - reluctantly, because I know the logic is good.

This is not, however, a 180 degree turn for me. I was thinking frequently about how I would end my life before I made my decision, and I still have small episodes. I wish to believe that I have done something positive, and I manifested the willpower to do so. I don't think I have any further opinion.

Some thoughts on the binary:

The binary exists so children are made, but that is one old reason but it's a powerful influence.  So the binary is there to create children, to make people feel good and create a nice division, but gender expression is completely and utterly personal and the binary does stiffle individual expression.

The binary is an idea in people's heads that there's such as thing as 'what is acceptable female behaviour', but we forget everything is a completely and utterly personal in regards to expressing who we are.

Do not get me wrong the binary exists but it exists on the personal basis of complete and utter development of the feelings we have inside of us.    We take what we think other people think into account, that's the problem, but the real basis is personal expression and that is what we lost if we lived as males doing what others wished of us.  What other people think plays a part, but it's often not as set in stone as we think.

There's a false binary, the one which is about what other think, and a true one that is driven by our female core and that one has far more expression concerning gender.

Quote from: Lexia on May 12, 2011, 09:43:30 AM
Some thoughts on the binary:

The binary exists so children are made, but that is one old reason but it's a powerful influence.  So the binary is there to create children, to make people feel good and create a nice division, but gender expression is completely and utterly personal and the binary does stiffle individual expression.

The binary is an idea in people's heads that there's such as thing as 'what is acceptable female behaviour', but we forget everything is a completely and utterly personal in regards to expressing who we are.

Do not get me wrong the binary exists but it exists on the personal basis of complete and utter development of the feelings we have inside of us.    We take what we think other people think into account, that's the problem, but the real basis is personal expression and that is what we lost if we lived as males doing what others wished of us.  What other people think plays a part, but it's often not as set in stone as we think.

There's a false binary, the one which is about what other think, and a true one that is driven by our female core and that one has far more expression concerning gender.

basically, that's what i call a social box. i believe 100% that male and female brains are wired differently, but the binary or "social boxes" are all fortified by society as a whole. just from what they learn a man or woman should be from growing up. even then, could you ask any two people what they think a man is and what a woman is and get two identical answers? the social boxing that is encouraged by the society has nothing good to come out of it. there is nothing wrong with being who you are, but setting the standards for the rest of the human race is what i call garbage. i believe everyone will somehow configure their gender expression in order to adapt to their surroundings and meet their personal needs. none of us came out of the womb and go through life with the exact same morals, the exact same sympathies, the exact same values. the list goes on and on.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 12, 2011, 12:43:04 AM
That argument is not very powerful from my perspective. Saying "I believe all queers are evil" is still offensive, even if I'm not suggesting you should believe it. However, I completely agree that the, um, volume of some of the responses might be toned down somewhat.

I completely agree with everything there.

QuoteI've seen this one used a few times in this thread, I'll admit I'm having a hard time comprehending it. (I'm not being facetious.) How does this devolve from "lousy choice" to "no choice"? It is based on the idea that death in itself is not a choice? I guess I have a hard time with that concept, as I feel very strongly that I chose to live.

I think there is a distinction that needs to be made here concerning a "choice" of self harm up to and including suicide. As I stated early on in this thread, yes, it is a choice. But, it is not a legitimate choice. The distinction though is that, that "choice" is not about transition. It's about a more nefarious issue. One which forces us into a very dark existence born of societal, familial and personal pressures for simply being the person you are and/or the incapacity to deal with and understand who you are. In other words, I think this is a "choice" which is being forced upon you. That's why it's illegitimate.

Once you have, and if you have successfully navigated away from that illegitimate "choice", you'll recognize that transitioning is not an option, nor a choice, it just is what must be. At least this is the way it worked for me.  I think the notion of a choice representing one, should not be associated with the true need and reality of the other. I could go on and on about how I feel this is so................but , I think I'll spare everyone.


Dawn

That someone should take offence to something that anouther person is thinking only demonstartes the insecurities of the person taking offence.

The statement prefaced by the statement "I beleive" is simply the reflection of what is inside that persons mind.

No one has any reason to be offended when someone states what they think.

RE:

Quote from: cynthialee on May 12, 2011, 10:48:02 AM
That someone should take offence to something that anouther person is thinking only demonstartes the insecurities of the person taking offence.

and,

QuoteNo one has any reason to be offended when someone states what they think.

Cynthia,

I wish to respectfully follow up on a thought that Sarah said just prior. Her's, to a point, echo's mine. I would caution that sometimes negative reaction to a person's statement is based more, in offence to sensitivities. And, it can be shown that failing to create a clearer picture of one's statements with resultant negative response is not completely based upon personal "insecurities". I reference a paraphrased statement by a preacher at a City Council meeting in Fort Lauderdale, Florida when Susan Stanton (don't jump on me for mentioning her name, please) first was outed. Anyway it went something like this:

".....I know Jesus Christ. And, I believe if he were here today, he'd want him fired!......."


Do you think anyone was offended by that statement? I know I was. Was it based upon insecurities? Not at all. It was based upon a representation of an intolerance for something they could not, nor would they even try to understand.

So, sometimes for clarities sake showing some level of offence to a statement has more of a rational than a perceived representation of insecurity.

Sorry, I just wanted to be clear.


Dawn

Quote from: Valeriedances on May 12, 2011, 10:58:02 AM
A person can still be male or female bodied and yet be a mix of masculine/feminine.

I do think there are exceptions to the binary system, intersex people for instance, but the majority of humans do not fall outside the binary, in my opinion.

A person can be completely feminine and still have a male body, and vice-versa. Could this be where gender variant folks are? They are not dysphoric in the same sense as a transsexual person who must have corrective surgery.

So it would be a decision/choice for those whose attributes align with the above, and still decide to transition for personal reasons having a mix or no surgeries. But it would not be a choice for the transsexual.

This is where we are talking apples/oranges. Completely different types of people. This is where the umbrella definition does not serve its stated community as these folks have nothing in common.

Val, I agree with everything you say apart from the last paragraph.  We're all people that's the essential thing, but there's going to be conflict between differing people because:

Where (speaking only for myself lol) as a transsexual, the transgender is because I'm male styled and it's been a negative to my life.  While to someone else being transgender is a positive, an expression of themselves.

Despite the whole negative experience, not bullying or anything like that the quiet negative the life chances the things that really matter, I also know a woman can do something male as good as the best man ever can, (and vice-a -versa). That's positive transgender, and one of the lessons I learnt, it's thoughts like that that made me think gender doesn't matter, but it does, being female matters, transsexual feelings about the body for one, and it's influence on gender.

There is a big diferance in a preacher demanding the rightous indignation of a comunity bassed on religous fervor and a member of susans making speculations and musings on gender.

Quote from: cynthialee on May 12, 2011, 02:04:24 PM
There is a big diferance in a preacher demanding the rightous indignation of a comunity bassed on religous fervor and a member of susans making speculations and musings on gender.

Should I detect offence at my comment? At the risk of pushing this topic to far off track, I just need to clarify a bit further, I guess. However, I promise, this will be my last comment on the subject herein.

There was no attempt to connect what the person here on Susan's was saying, as being in any way the same, or in connection to what the preacher-man said. Simply, the point was; when someone reacts to something someone says (in the light of being offended), it's not necessarily based upon insecurity. It's likely more so based upon sensitivity to the subject matter being discussed.  Big difference.

Enjoy your day!


Dawn

awww Valerie, hugs back always :)

Ooohhh! I like hugs!

Thanks, Valerie! :icon_hug: to you too!


Dawn