Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Im still a teenager, Im on low dosage of estrodial valerate tablets once a day, Im waiting for the pct to approve injectable blockers if they do, If not i will have to get tablet blockers too, but will this low dosage of hormones do much in the 2 months im on them? i don't grow facial hair or anything and i am kinda young
-Hannah xo

Yes it is actually benificial to start on a very low dosage of E as this mirrors puberty and gets all the estrogen receptors fired up ready to accept the huge rush of E that's going to arrive in a few months time.

So does this mean i might get some changes? What changes would you say i can achieve? xo

I didn't use any blockers ever, never had it suggested nor prescribed, was just taking injectable estrodial, that's it, worked fine for me and I started nearly 10 years later than you are. But perhaps a blocker would've yielded even better results, and without me having to take such a large dose of estrogen, I dunno. At the time I never really had any info on blockers. What I'm curious about is, should I be taking a blocker next time I get back on the hormones, should it be considered a necessity, are there any others that have done without it?

Quote from: Helena on May 16, 2011, 06:30:33 AM
Yes it is actually benificial to start on a very low dosage of E as this mirrors puberty and gets all the estrogen receptors fired up ready to accept the huge rush of E that's going to arrive in a few months time.

Not that I doubt your crediblity Helena but can I see this myself? I know that the GIC's in the UK are a big fan of this type of proceedure but I'm unconvinced I'd like to see abit of evidence. :/

I will admit that I only just heard about this last night, and I haven't read the paper that was referred to but apparently a respected enoctrinologist, who treats trans patients wrote it with the basic gist that a lot of girls don't get ideal results because they insist on the maximum dosages straight away, when in fact natural female puberty ramps up slowly over 3 to 6 months, which gets the estrogen receptors ready for the massive wash of hormones that is on the way.

I'd be interested to read that, if you have a link - in any case, it makes sense from the "don't do anything biochemical suddenly" point of view to ramp up gently rather than jump straight in at the top dose. Whenever the body experiences sudden change, it tries to compensate.

Oh i can't believe this is forgeign to you all, Its essential in the uk, It speeds up transition and gives you boobs in months xo

i started HRT on a low dose without blockers about 4 months, no wait 5 months ago (i'm 23) and i've been developing pretty well, but i've got the feeling i've had more body hair growing. or at least it has stayed the same. Sadly i'll only have another appointment with the endo in july, so thats what i'll be taking for another while.

Hey Hannah, you are asking what changes you are going to experience and the answer is everything baby! Being your age is extremely beneficial and results will spell "GIRL" in its entirety (except of course for that dangly thing and birthing stuff ;)
Good luck, and bit of loving envy from an old Broad.

Quote from: HannahWhettonxo on May 16, 2011, 08:14:35 AM
Oh i can't believe this is forgeign to you all, Its essential in the uk, It speeds up transition and gives you boobs in months xo

ahem I had boobs in 3 weeks. And I'm in the uk but I didn't use that method at all... As it's one of those Random indivdualistic things I don't think you can make claims like that.

"ahem I had boobs in 3 weeks. And I'm in the uk but I didn't use that method at all... As it's one of those Random indivdualistic things I don't think you can make claims like that."

I mean for most m2f fast breast growth is achieved with blockers.

Quote from: inna on May 16, 2011, 11:27:39 AM
Hey Hannah, you are asking what changes you are going to experience and the answer is everything baby! Being your age is extremely beneficial and results will spell "GIRL" in its entirety (except of course for that dangly thing and birthing stuff ;)
Good luck, and bit of loving envy from an old Broad.

Thankyou lol well i have a big nose which doesn't help, but thats going to be sorted next year when i have rhinoplasty, But im wondering, Is it possible to look female with a big nose? because i need hope lol xo

...to which the obvious answer is:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.popstarsplus.com%2Fimages%2FBarbraStreisandPicture.jpg&hash=623bee03cce9582bf51c5a824c72510f91b37876)

;D

Quote from: Padma on May 16, 2011, 02:58:01 PM
...to which the obvious answer is:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.popstarsplus.com%2Fimages%2FBarbraStreisandPicture.jpg&hash=623bee03cce9582bf51c5a824c72510f91b37876)

;D

Mines more of a inwards slope then a big bump then normal again lol

Quote from: HannahWhettonxo on May 16, 2011, 06:05:22 AM
Im still a teenager, Im on low dosage of estrodial valerate tablets once a day, Im waiting for the pct to approve injectable blockers if they do, If not i will have to get tablet blockers too, but will this low dosage of hormones do much in the 2 months im on them? i don't grow facial hair or anything and i am kinda young
-Hannah xo

not really. in just two months of a low dosage of estrogen is not going to have much changes. maybe your skin might soften and smoothen within that time, but things like breasts development, fat distribution, and things of that nature will take several years to develop completely. if you aren't on androgen blockers, the estrogen has little to no effect, because higher amounts of testosterone will always counteract estrogens. unless you're taking high doses of estrogen, it won't be enough to drown out the testosterone.

Hannah hon, you will always find something not right in the mirror image, after all you are a woman :) but many here would have given everything they posses to be once more, teen with ability to do what you are lucky to achieve. Sit tight and fasten seat-belts, place your seat back and tray in upright position, you are cleared for takeoff :) and believe me, you will be beautiful!

Quote from: HannahWhettonxo on May 16, 2011, 02:26:28 PM
Thankyou lol well i have a big nose which doesn't help, but thats going to be sorted next year when i have rhinoplasty, But im wondering, Is it possible to look female with a big nose? because i need hope lol xo

i have IMHO a big nose and it really bothered me before, but to be honest, lately i'm actually okay with it. I don't know if HRT changed anything physical or if it was some mental change, but at least i don't consider rhynoplasty that important anymore

Quote from: Layn on May 16, 2011, 03:19:13 PM
i have IMHO a big nose and it really bothered me before, but to be honest, lately i'm actually okay with it. I don't know if HRT changed anything physical or if it was some mental change, but at least i don't consider rhynoplasty that important anymore

How do you mean? Does your nose look more feminine like with your face now? like not the nose actuallychanging but blending in and not looking as manly on your face? xx

i think my nose has gotten smaller, and my mom did mention it too that it seems smaller. but in general it just doesn't look so wrong anymore, maybe it's just blending in. i don't know

Everywhere there is fat, there is also an opportunity that HRT will do its magic. Nose has some fatty deposit so yes,  it could diminish in size. Better yet, bone does not change however cartilage, being semi soft tissue may, so further change possibility. However minute they are overall they can change the appearance of the face in the feminine direction. My experience has shown that my overall diameter of head has reduced by about 1", 1/2" on each side, pretty phenomenal. Muscle reduction combined with fat has led to that massive reduction. So just wait, you might actually save some cash for more important things than rhynoplasty, such as shooooose :)

Quote from: Helena on May 16, 2011, 07:41:10 AM
I will admit that I only just heard about this last night, and I haven't read the paper that was referred to but apparently a respected enoctrinologist, who treats trans patients wrote it with the basic gist that a lot of girls don't get ideal results because they insist on the maximum dosages straight away, when in fact natural female puberty ramps up slowly over 3 to 6 months, which gets the estrogen receptors ready for the massive wash of hormones that is on the way.

I came across this link on another forum I frequent. The main intent of the article is to address the myths around MtF's using progesterone as part of their hormone regimen (according to the author they shouldn't--too many risks and no benefit), but it does discuss estrogen levels in natal females with respect to breast growth and over all fat metabolism during puberty.

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf (http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf)

Hope it helps.

Estrogen can suppressed GnRH excretion (1) which in turn lower LH level, and so reduce testosterone production.
Estrogen also raised SHBG level, result in higher level of SHBG bound  testosterone (not bio-available), thus reduced the level of non-SHBG bound  testosterone (bio-available). This two results are similar to those obtained by most anti-androgen. The level where these results occurred need not be at unhealthy level, usually the standard dosage for MTF is sufficient (age is a factor).

The gradual build-up of estrogen receptor through lower dosage before full dosage for full growth of breast issue does apply (in order to save the initial cost of higher dosage), but the usage of estrogen does not concentrate on breast growth only, a sufficient dosage which is maintained steadily is the factor contributing to its anti-androgen effect.

The use of anti-androgen is not recommended due to:

1. side effect of drug
2. some anti-androgens are much more expensive than estrogen
3. some anti-androgen actually inhibiting the positive effect of estrogen
4. more difficult to reverse to the condition prior to HRT
5. almost all anti-androgens have negative effect on liver

Reference:
1. http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/SexHormones.html (http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/SexHormones.html)

Quote from: chrishoney on May 17, 2011, 06:17:41 PM
I came across this link on another forum I frequent. The main intent of the article is to address the myths around MtF's using progesterone as part of their hormone regimen (according to the author they shouldn't--too many risks and no benefit), but it does discuss estrogen levels in natal females with respect to breast growth and over all fat metabolism during puberty.

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf (http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf)

Hope it helps.

I like Dr Curtis' conclusion that if you want bigger breasts, forget progesterone and just eat more pies :) - after all, breasts are 80% fat, and as he says, it's got to come from somewhere. An interesting paper.

Quote from: chrishoney on May 17, 2011, 06:17:41 PM
I came across this link on another forum I frequent. The main intent of the article is to address the myths around MtF's using progesterone as part of their hormone regimen (according to the author they shouldn't--too many risks and no benefit), but it does discuss estrogen levels in natal females with respect to breast growth and over all fat metabolism during puberty.

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf (http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf)

Hope it helps.

seen this, it's essentially bunk...at least in my experience of taking progesterone

Progesterone also suppressed GnRH excretion (1).
Progesterone also raised SHBG level (2).

Thus adding Progesterone has an additive effect on anti-androgenic action. There is no requirement for drug-base anti-androgen.


1. Donal C. Skinner, Neil P. Evans, Bernadette Delaleu, Robert L. Goodman, Philippe Bouchard, and Alain Caraty, The negative feedback actions of progesterone on gonadotropinreleasing hormone secretion are transduced by the classical progesterone receptor, Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 September 1; 95(18): 10978–10983.

2. fractal1 on Jan 21, 2009, Re: High Estrogen & SHBG, http://www.hormonesupportgroup.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=womenshormoneissues&action=display&thread=368 (http://www.hormonesupportgroup.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=womenshormoneissues&action=display&thread=368)

This conversation brings me to a question:

Should I start with a low dosage of E, and gradually increase it, but use testosterone blockers from the start? Could I get better results that way?

One may start estrogen from a lower dosage but gradually increase it, while observe the changes, anti-androgen is not needed. If one must use anti-androgen, try black tea, it can blocked DHT near the level of Propecia with no side effect of drug.

So why doctors (who should know about it more than we) prescribe anti-androgen if it is not needed?

The fact is not all doctors prescribe anti-androgen, and experience doctors in transgender HRT are few. Also, there is large public misconception about using anti-androgen for breast growth. Anti-androgens are mainly for treatment of male boldness and prostate cancer, not intended for HRT. As the supplement of estrogen in HRT has anti-androgen effect.

And some prescribe just anti-androgen for begining (but this is opposite extreme)

Can someone compare effect of estrogen with and without blockers on themselves?

For the underage, the use of anti-androgen may be necessary in order suppressed testerone but without the estrogen to stop the increase in height. When estrogen can be use in full dosage, anti-androgen is no longer needed. Most blockers are based on the mechanism of inhibiting GnRH excretion, estrogen also accomplish the same thing. Some blockers suppressed the effect of testerone directly, the raised SHBG level caused by estrogen also suppressed testerone by binding it.

i never took progesterone. i've only heard it's necessary in genetic females for strengthening the uterus during the menstrual cycle, and it's the dominant hormone during pregnancy. what does it do to feminize the body?

Quote from: JoyceChin on May 18, 2011, 06:58:40 PM
One may start estrogen from a lower dosage but gradually increase it, while observe the changes, anti-androgen is not needed. If one must use anti-androgen, try black tea, it can blocked DHT near the level of Propecia with no side effect of drug.

you see, i never knew that. why don't we give that trick to the mtf in the age of puberty, but have no hrt? drink black tea daily.

Quoteyou see, i never knew that. why don't we give that trick to the mtf in the age of puberty, but have no hrt? drink black tea daily.

Black tea / soy food alone without estrogen only blocked DHT, but other non-SHBG bound testerone still has masculinizing effect.

Quotei never took progesterone. i've only heard it's necessary in genetic females for strengthening the uterus during the menstrual cycle, and it's the dominant hormone during pregnancy. what does it do to feminize the body?

Progesterone also inhibiting GnRH excretion, increase estrogen receptor sensitivity which help raise SHBG level, progesterone also has its own receptors which contribute to breast growth, all these effects contributing to and amplifying estrogen's feminizing effect. If estrogen's dosage seem insufficient as an anti-androgen, the adding of progesterone has an additive, anti-androgenic effect. This, in addition to combine effect of black tea, green tea / soy food, should be considered before adding anti-androgen (which should be the last resort in extreme cases).

Where did you get all this information from, Joyce? Are you a health professional?

I'm just someone who do a lot of study for medication due to lack of transgender support in my country.

So basically you are giving out your "medical" opinion without being graduated in medicine.

Okay, I'm going to step in here. Giving (and listening) to medical advice posted on the internet by and unqualified individual (no matter how well intentioned) is a decidedly risky course of action. There is a reason you have your bloods monitored by a qualified endo and that's because they know what they are doing.

Joyce, I'm going to ask you to stop please, what your posting is dangerously close to advice and dangerously close to suggesting dosages, which is of course against TOS. Two of our younger and more impressionable members have seemingly taken to heart what you've been saying and that is actually worrying me slightly.

Also it's worth bearing in mind that HRT is not just about breast development.

Thank you. Transmission ends

Quote from: Padma on May 18, 2011, 04:12:01 AM
I like Dr Curtis' conclusion that if you want bigger breasts, forget progesterone and just eat more pies :) - after all, breasts are 80% fat, and as he says, it's got to come from somewhere. An interesting paper.

In my opinion Dr Curtis is seriously mistaken - if only for the reason that many of us who take progesterone do so because it also has effects as a moderator of mood. I personally take it for this reason - although to look at my development I think I also tend to the view that I am also a pretty good counter argument to his views on breast development too. - my personal opinion of him is literally unprintable without getting me banned (so you can gather it isn't high!)

Quote from: Layn on May 16, 2011, 05:01:08 PM
i think my nose has gotten smaller, and my mom did mention it too that it seems smaller. but in general it just doesn't look so wrong anymore, maybe it's just blending in. i don't know

Big noses are great will I pull it off I dunno I hope so.  Works for Uma :D

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.celebritieswallpapers.info%2Fviews%2Fimages%2Fgallery%2FUma_Thurman_62.jpg&hash=6dafc4d58b545171dd1b9ad44bc74ff2c9d7beb2)

I know this topic is old, but I just have to chime in, because I, like many others probably review this thread regularly considering it's easily found with a Google search.

First of all, if you want "professional" medical advice, schedule an appointment with your doctor! This is a forum where we speak our thoughts freely, and most of, if not all of what Jacelyn mentioned has sources to back it up!

It irritates me that someone with so much knowledge gets shushed by people whom probably don't know jack squat about anything.

In summary, go see your doctor if you're too dang lazy to search for this information and find it's references. (Possibly too ignorant too.)

Sources:

Estradiol & GnRH Receptor Expression:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9741826 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9741826)

Progesterone & GnRH Neuronal Activity:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22822163 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22822163)

Estradiol & Progesterone & GnRH Expression:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24089203 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24089203)
"In conclusion, estradiol and progesterone exclusively decreased GnRH I-R mRNA in alphaT3-1 cells no matter whether they are treated additionally with the GnRH I agonist triptorelin."

Black Tea & DHT Conversion:
http://www.hairloss-research.org/LinkUpdateBlacktea10-12.html (http://www.hairloss-research.org/LinkUpdateBlacktea10-12.html)

All of what she said is EASILY backed up by studies, so you need to go see your doctor whom probably doesn't even know a fraction of this information, and trust him/her instead since you're too lazy to review the studies yourself.

I'm sorry for reopening this topic, but this had to be said.