Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So, I consider myself Taoist. Not a very good one, but being "devout" takes practice and patience.

For those that don't know, Taoism is not a religion. A religion is a spirituality with a higher power. Taoists live of the land, living life as it goes on, no pride, prejudice, greed, no sins at all.

Kia Ora Vakarian,

::) If you're not a very "good" Taoist...This would mean you're not a very "bad" one...So you're just going with the "flow" in a balanced kinda "way"...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on May 21, 2011, 06:35:04 PM
Kia Ora Vakarian,

::) If you're not a very "good" Taoist...This would mean you're not a very "bad" one...So you're just going with the "flow" in a balanced kinda "way"...

Metta Zenda :)

:P Very true! What I meant, though, is that I still judge people. I try to catch myself before I do, though. I have a bit of a short temper, and such.

Quote from: VakarianPride on May 21, 2011, 06:43:43 PM
:P Very true! What I meant, though, is that I still judge people. I try to catch myself before I do, though. I have a bit of a short temper, and such.

Kia Ora Valkarian,

::) Because you are becoming more "aware" of what you consider your faults/flaws, this could also means your mind is becoming more open/receptive, allowing the chi to flow more freely/naturally...Hence making "going with the flow" easier...

[/b]

So just practice what Lao Zi preached and "Just go with the flow and enjoy it!" 

Metta Zenda :)

I've read almost all the verses of the Tao Te Ching.  I don't know that there is anything about achieving perfection as it applies to being a good Taoist.  It seems more about acceptance.

The other night I woke up and couldn't get back to sleep.  My mind was reeling with 10,000 things.  But it wasn't the 10,000 things Lao Tzu often refers to.  It was just life stuff.

Anyway, I got out of bed and grabbed my book and began reading verses of the Tao.  When I got to the 39th verse I read:

" When man interferes with the Tao, the sky becomes filthy, the earth becomes depleted, the equilibrium crumbles, creatures become extinct."

That certainly sums up what we've been doing.  And to think, Lao Tzu wrote this some 2500 years ago.  I guess we didn't listen.

Kia Ora Julie & Vakarian,

"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be!" 

Lao Tzu [or Zi]

  ::)  And when it comes to the  gender dysphoria sufferers....Never a truer word spoken...

Metta Zenda :)

"Perfection" is a state of mind where you are one with The Way and accept life as it comes, no qualms, no fuss. Zhuge Liang even stated such, after quoting Lao Tsu. To be completely one with The Way is like a Buddhist becoming a Buddha.

Quote from: VakarianPride on May 27, 2011, 03:08:17 AM
"Perfection" is a state of mind where you are one with The Way and accept life as it comes, no qualms, no fuss. Zhuge Liang even stated such, after quoting Lao Tsu. To be completely one with The Way is like a Buddhist becoming a Buddha.

Kia Ora VakarianP

Here's a nice little story that illustrates what you have mentioned, it's taken from "Tao Living"...


The Waterfall

Confucius and his students went on a hike out in the countryside. He was thinking of using the opportunity to engage the students in a discussion about the Tao when one of them approached and asked: "Master, have you ever been to Liu Liang? It is not far from here."
Confucius said: "I have heard about it but never actually seen it with my own eyes. It is said to be a place of much natural beauty."
"It is indeed," the student said. "Liu Liang is known for its majestic waterfalls. It is only about two hours' trek from here, and the day is still young. Master, if you would like to go there, I would be honored to serve as your guide."
Confucius thought this was a splendid idea, so the group set off toward Liu Liang. As they were walking and chatting, another student said: "I grew up near a waterfall myself. In summertime, I would always go swimming with the other children from the village."
The first student explained: "These waterfalls we will see aren't quite like that. The water comes down from such a great height that it carries tremendous force when it hits the bottom. You definitely would not want to go swimming there."
Confucius said: "When the water is sufficiently powerful, not even fish and turtles can get near it. This is interesting to ponder, because we are used to thinking of water as their native element."
After a while, they could see the waterfall coming into view in the hazy distance. Although it was still far away, they could see that it was indeed as majestic as the first student described. Another hour of walking brought them even closer, and now they could clearly hear the deep, vibrating sound it made.
They topped a rise and were able to see the entire waterfall. Then they gasped collectively, because at the bottom of it, they saw a man in the ferociously churning water, being spun around and whipped this way and that by the terrifying currents.
"Quickly, to the waterfall!" Confucius commanded. "He must have fallen in by accident, or perhaps he is a suicide. Either way, we must save him if we can."
They ran as fast as they could. "It's useless, Master," one the students said. "By the time we get down there, he'll be too far gone for us to do him any good."
"You may well be right," Confucius replied. "Nevertheless, when a man's life is at stake, we owe it to him to make every effort possible."
They lost sight of the man as they descended the hillside. Moments later, they broke through the forest to arrive at the river, a short distance downstream from the waterfall. They expected to see the man's lifeless body in the river. Instead, they saw him swimming casually away from the waterfall, spreading his long hair out and singing loudly, evidently having a great time. They were dumbfounded.
When he got out of the river, Confucius went to speak with him: "Sir, I thought you must be some sort of supernatural being, but on closer inspection I see you are an ordinary person, no different from us. We sought to save you, but now I see it is not necessary."
The man bowed to Confucius: "I am sorry if I have caused you any grave concerns on my behalf. This is merely a trivial recreational activity I enjoy once in a while."
Confucius bowed back: "You say it is trivial, but to me it is incredible. How can it be that you were not harmed by the waterfall? Are there some special skills that you possess?"
"No, I have no special skills whatsoever," the man replied. "I simply follow the nature of the water. That's how I started with it, developed a habit out of it, and derived lifelong enjoyment from it."
"This 'follow the nature of the water' - can you describe it in greater detail? How exactly does one follow the nature of water?"
"Well... I don't really think about it very much. If I had to describe it, I would say that when the powerful torrents twist around me, I turn with them. If a strong current drives me down, I dive alongside it. As I do so, I am fully aware that when we get to the riverbed, the current will reverse course and provide a strong lift upward. When this occurs, I am already anticipating it, so I rise together with it."
"So you are working with the water and not just letting it have its way with you?"
"That's right. Although the water is extremely forceful, it is also a friend that I have gotten to know over the years, so I can sense what it wants to do, and I leverage its flow without trying to manipulate it or impose my will on it."
"How long did it take for you to make all this an integrated part of your life?"
"I really can't say. I was born in this area, so the waterfalls have always been a familiar sight to me. I grew up playing with these powerful currents, so I have always felt comfortable with them. Whatever success I have with water is simply a natural result of my lifelong habit. To be quite frank, I have no idea why this approach works so well. To me, it's just the way life is."
Confucius thanked him and turned back to his students. He smiled, because he suddenly knew exactly what they could talk about on their trip home.


This is one of Chuang Tzu's many stories featuring Confucius in a central role. It depicts Confucius as a wise teacher and a humble student of the Tao. This may come as a bit of a surprise, because sometimes we come across the notion that Chuang Tzu uses such stories to ridicule and criticize Confucius. The more we study Chuang Tzu, the more we see that this is just another one of the many misconceptions about the Tao.

A true sage would have little need to ridicule or criticize anyone, and 2,500 years ago there were no such labels as Taoism or Confucianism. All the masters including Chuang Tzu and Confucius studied the Tao, and in that pursuit they learned from one another with mutual courtesy and respect. It was only later generations that started rivalries, disregarding the teaching of harmony and straying far from the Tao.

In this story, the majestic waterfall of Liu Liang represents life. The fearsome force of this waterfall represents the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that we withstand in life. The water carries so much power that there is nothing one can do to stop it or slow it down. In the same way, sometimes we feel ourselves propelled along by the progression of events, heading toward a certain outcome and completely powerless to avoid it. The sheer force of fate, like the waterfall, can be overwhelming.

Some people who study the Tao at the superficial level like to say that we all live in the Tao and can never be apart from it, so everything is already perfect as it is. With the waterfall imagery, Chuang Tzu points out the error in this way of thinking. While we are indeed immersed in the Tao like fish in water, that water is not necessarily tranquil. Because life is dynamic and constantly changing, it can often push us in unexpected directions. In this way it is much more similar to the chaotic currents of the waterfall.

Most of us attempt to survive the waterfall of life with limited success. Sometimes the water slams us against rocks or tosses us around like rag dolls. Sometimes we try to fight the water, but the effort is draining, and soon we are exhausted. We rail against such injustices, but no amount of rage seems to make any difference.

Then, just like Confucius witnessing the man emerging from the river without a scratch, sometimes we see a few people who, unlike most of us, seem to handle life with effortless ease. Strangely, the mighty current of misfortune does not have the same effect on them as it does on us. When they come out of this current, we can see that they have suffered no harm or fatigue. Not only that, but they actually seem to be having fun! How can this be?

The man in the waterfall represents the sage who has mastered the art of living life to the utmost. Such is his mastery that his skills have become completely natural to him. They go far beyond "techniques" or "strategies" that one can learn from self-improvement books; they become totally integrated with his instincts and reactions.

There are two major elements in the sage's mastery. The first is perceptive awareness. Just as the man in the waterfall follows the nature of the water, the sage is keenly aware of his environment and the forces at work in it. He brings observations and insights to the present moment to understand exactly what is going on. This means he does not merely "let go" in living the Taoist life - that would only be yet another misconception - instead, he is actively interested in his surroundings and curious about current events. This is how he follows the nature of life.

The second major element is proactive involvement. Once the sage understands the direction and velocity of a life current, he works with it. Rather than to let himself be thrown around by the current, he rides it. Just as the man in the waterfall sees water as a friend and knows where it wants to go, the sage embraces life and intuitively senses its tendencies and inclinations. Thus, rather than to fight the tremendous power of the water, the sage leverages that same power to his own benefit.

Some of the currents drive us downward. Such currents represents setbacks in life, and we all encounter them from time to time. The sage's understanding of the Tao informs him that no current can sustain the downward push forever. Sooner or later, it must reach an extreme and turn back around. Those who are able to anticipate this, like the sage, can take advantage of the upward movement; those who cannot, may very well miss the opportunity.

How can we learn to become masters of the waterfall, or expert surfers riding the waves of life? Chuang Tzu tells us that first we must get to know life and become familiar with its many currents. As we become increasingly comfortable, we should start practicing with them while remaining observant and sensitive to changing conditions. When the currents change direction or speed, we must adjust ourselves to match.

The most important direction from Chuang Tzu is that we need to make a lifelong habit out of this practice. This is because the Tao is not a passive or inactive pursuit. Instead, it is full of vitality and dynamism, and embodies an action orientation. Therefore, mastery of life cannot happen all by itself without proactive involvement on our part.

How long will it take for us to gain this mastery? Chuang Tzu cannot tell us, because it really depends on the individual. Some of us may need an entire lifetime to master life itself.
We do know one thing for sure though, and that is if we take proactive steps to start developing the habit as Chuang Tzu suggests - in other words, cultivate the Tao in a consistent daily practice - then we, like the man in the waterfall, will also find ourselves enjoying every minute of it!

You might have already read it, but if not I hope you or any others who read it, can perhaps learn something from it's simple lesson on life...

Metta Zenda :)

I guess we didn't listen.

Oh lots of people listened, they just HATED what they heard.  It seems more about acceptance.  It is, but that's really an imperfect translation, what the Tao says is something that in modern English is far more akin to 'surrender' than acceptance.

And I don't mean surrender in a bad way.  My understanding is that given the energy and size of the universe pretty much everything is out of my control.  Once you get to that level of understanding, the 'not caring' part comes naturally.  When you simply accept what is in front of you without wanting it to be any different than it is, then you are in harmony with the universe.  What is, is. 

solutions are problems, problems are solutions
religions are secular, and secularity is a religion
any concept of nature is always artificial, and artificialness comes naturally,
bondage comes from freedom, and freedom comes from bondage
if you set yourself apart, you'll always end up being one with everything
but if you try to be one with everything, do you set yourself apart?
is this is even correct? or does it just seem like it is?
is there really meaning to truth?
because nothing exists, everything had to be this way
because if nothing exists, there could be no truth
so nothing could have ever not existed
at the same time
if theres no truth, then none of this is so
but if thats the truth, then truth and not truth are the same
and to tell the whole truth you would apparently have to lie

but beyond all this logic, it is kindness that prevails, love
prevails, empathy that prevails, and compassion for the ecosystem
around us (and within)

they are the wayless ways, the pathless paths, of enlightenment by
which we can all coexist in happiness

Quote from: VakarianPride on May 21, 2011, 05:24:19 PM
So, I consider myself Taoist. Not a very good one, but being "devout" takes practice and patience.

Wait...what?  A "devout" Taoist?  Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

If you're an 'ist' and it's an 'ism' its a religion - don't kid yourself.

Quote from: tekla on October 07, 2011, 03:30:33 AM
If you're an 'ist' and it's an 'ism' its a religion - don't kid yourself.

I guess you're right.  I had just always imagined that the Tao would be a less... forceful approach to life.

I think that it's less forceful on the world - no evangelism or anything like that - but very forceful (at least in the beginning) on yourself.  The cardinal point, perhaps the only real point is very hard for people to accept, as it goes against every human trait I think.  It makes it impossible for anyone to transition and 'really be a Taoist' I think - but it does make it possible to just be.  The only point in the entire Tao, indeed the path of the Tao itself, is to accept what is in front of you without wanting it to be any different.  That trying to 'change' things, or 'make them better', or 'improve' them, or 'get what you want' only sets up great strife, and in the end, never works anyway.  That kind of radical acceptance, submission really, is very hard for people to embrace.

Quote from: tekla on October 07, 2011, 11:26:54 AM
The only point in the entire Tao, indeed the path of the Tao itself, is to accept what is in front of you without wanting it to be any different.  That trying to 'change' things, or 'make them better', or 'improve' them, or 'get what you want' only sets up great strife, and in the end, never works anyway.

How does this square with people who have goals and achieve them?  Like the person born into poverty who decides they don't want that experience and go on to become wealthy?  (Bill Cosby is a good example of this)

They don't become Taoists I would guess.  It's really a pretty poor match for a socially and economically mobile society.

Kia Ora,

::)  "It makes it impossible for anyone to transition and 'really be a Taoist' The only point in the entire Tao, indeed the path of the Tao itself, is to accept what is in front of you without wanting it to be any different!"


::) For some Taoist members, what  is in front of them is their 'transitional' path and they have got to accept this without wanting it to be different...After all...It's their  'natural flow'...

Taoism is all about alignment ... The correct 'balance' =In harmony with all things...

When it comes to the need to transition 'where there's will, there's a 'way'=Tao !

"What's meant to be will be! And what's 'not' meant to be will be !"

Happy Mindfulness

Metta Zenda :)

You are bending the faith to suit yourself, rather than submitting yourself to the faith - which is the way of all faith in the West, and why faith in the West is of ever increasing uselessness.  Eastern religions tend to be more like prostitution than faith when Westerners get a hold of them.

Kia Ora,

::) Bending faith to suit my 'self'...  ::) You of all people should know "there is no 'self' to suit-only five aggregates which are in a constant state of flux ...

::) But Interesting theory anyway...especially the 'faith' part...

Is there a difference between Eastern 'Religion' and Eastern 'Philosophy' Tekla? From my humble understanding, in Taoism they are separate...

Metta Zenda :)

I think when they move West (and modern) Eastern Religions (and increasingly even Western religions) tend to be not so much Buddhist or Taoist, as Buddhish and Taoish.  Far less a discipline, and far more a cafeteria.

i just saw a football player guy walk out of a car into a small house
with a baby in a baby carrier thing, he yelled out something about
"the game" his red jersey said conspicuously 'Dowe'... it was both
saddening, and sad
a sad,  sad day for tao

how far our misconceptions have taken us

total fail

First of all, the definition of religion states that there is a higher power, therefore if there is no defined higher power then it cannot be a religion. It is a belief at that point. Claiming that Taoism is a religion is like claiming that all religions and beliefs are exactly the same. I worship no God, therefore I have no relgion. And technically being "devout" as a Taoist is possible, by this I mean those who make a point to live Taoist daily and consiously. I do not try hard enough to find The Way, nor do I actively seek the balance in my life. Some would claim, due to these things, that I would not be a true Taoist. That would be like claiming that if one does not go to church, then they're not real Christians.

Either way, don't try to claim that Taoism is a religion, and don't accuse someone of bending The Way to suit themselves as that's not even possible.

To be natural is enough. Why seek perfection? There is no real perfection. Believer or not? The Tao never calls for faith or worship, thus, it never identifies people into believers or not like Christians or Muslims. Tao is just a way of living, a way of how people see the world, it is more like a philosophy. Taoism never needs people to label themselves because everything and everyone have their unique way. Always stay comfortable and natural and do not force yourself. Slow down, life is to be enjoyed. 今子有大树，患其无用，何不树之于无何有之乡，广莫之野，彷徨乎无为其侧，逍遥乎寝卧其下。不夭斤斧，物无害者，无所可用，安所困苦哉！{You have a large tree and are troubled because it is of no use - why do you not plant it in a tract where there is nothing else, or in a wide and barren wild? There you might saunter idly by its side, or in the enjoyment of untroubled ease sleep beneath it. Neither bill nor axe would shorten its existence; there would be nothing to injure it. What is there in its uselessness to cause you distress?}

Anyway, an English translation never reaches its original charms. Just like an English Bible is in no compare with its Latin version.

OK... Am I a Taoist, or am I a believer? Is it a religion? I just do not know, and the natural existence will not become any different because of our labeling.. 名者，实之实也。{The label is but the guest of the reality.}

In one of John Blofeld's books about his visitation to Taoist hermitages and temples in the thirties there's a really nice coversation he with one of the monks at a larger temple. The temple has this large hall with statues of Lao Tzu and the the Yellow Emperor where the local peasants come and worship or pay their respects to these venerated figures. The monk tells Mr. Blofeld that they provide this space because some people are incapable of understanding or struggle with the intricacies of the Tao and it's vastness so having these quasi-divines for people to focus on and emulate helps them catch glimpses of the totality of the Tao.

I think it's also important to consider that Taoism incorporated a whole bunch of local folk religion across china just like how Buddhism subsumed the traditional Tibetan Bon religion to create what we know as Tibetan Buddhism.  Taoism does not require belief, faith, gods, or anything else, as sylvannus eloquently put it "To be natural is enough.". However Taoism doesn't disallow these things. If having a god or team of spirits help you in realizing and living the Tao then that's cool. 

Quote from: Anatta on May 28, 2011, 03:34:25 PM

"I simply follow the nature of the water."

Nice story, Anatta. And that's Taoism in a nutshell, isn't it: follow the nature of water.

-- Sue