Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Since coming out, or being outed, that is since the knowledge you are trans has gone beyond the most trusted people in your life, has it affected your religious beliefs or attitudes?

Pre-out I never gave it much thought.  God, religion, all that kind of stuff, just was.  And to me it was, at the very worst, pretty much harmless (the Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite types aside.)   But, after being outed, I saw God and religion being used as an excuse to discriminate, to judge, to condemn, to reject.  And suddenly my eyes became wide open.  Initially it was shock.  Now it's to keep watch.

So religion went from being anything from good for some and harmless to others to a serious problem.  As I'm trying to regain the rights and privileges I lost after coming out, so-called religious groups are fighting to deny me that.  And from everything I learned growing up, this is completely opposed to God's will.   :icon_confused2:

Has anyone else had a change in their religious beliefs since coming out?

I was Christian before even realising that I'm trans, and feel that this whole journey is God's doing. I've certainly felt the benefits already, and being told that I look much better and happier just adds to that feeling. Finding a good way to explain that to my small group (my church is huge, so we have a lot of smaller groups meet up during the week) has made it easier for them to accept what I'm going through.

So seeing/hearing other "Christians" using the bible as a weapon against anyone in the LGBT community makes me sick to the stomach. That is *not* God's word they are preaching when they condemn us, it's their own bigotry clinging to parts of the bible written waaaaaay back in the Old Testament - the part where it also says to not eat shrimp or shave :P

Next time you encounter one of these people, here's a couple of verses to throw back at them:

Do not judge others, so that God will not judge you - Matthew 7:1

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:27-29

And, my favourite bit:

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. - 1 Corinthians 1:26-29

Jesus got p*ed at the Pharisees for getting it wrong, and it's still happening now :-\

I completely agree with Nemo... My beliefs involve that I follow Christ; what the Church has to say is mostly irrelevent to my faith, and I would definitely want a word with the pastor/priest if I knew he was teaching messages of judgment of hate.

... Because that's not what Jesus taught us to say and do. The hateful Christians are hypocrites, like there have always been, and I'm sorry that they have to give Christianity a bad name. But, anyone with an active opposition to something feels the need to say it and why... a hypocritical Christian recognizes that the Bible has some credit, and tries to use that as a weapon. If it weren't the Bible, it would just be something else...

I have to wonder what Jesus would say to those people that use His word as a weapon!  :P

Yes.
I am Wiccan. Prior to transition I took the standard trans exclusive position of the majority of said practioners. (at least the ones I know are like this) We are given these bodies to procreate in celebration of the creative nature of the Goddess. To transition is to accept serlf impossed sterilization and reject the gift of pro/creation.

After coming to terms with the fact I have always been sterile, I knew I was going to transition. I had to do some reevaluation.. It took me many many many years to be able to come out of denial about this but I did. I never did have the ability to have kids so I was not rejecting anything.
I read some pro trans Wiccan writers. Eventually I came across a group of trans Shaman and it really dawned on me why I was born this way. Those of us who are trans and seek it are natural Shaman. We have an insight into the human condition that most people do not have. We transend the standard reality of the mass and we see things from a diferant angle. Being so disconected to our bodies seems to make it easier to connect with the spirit realm. We are shape shifters. We have many totems that we can seek affinity to with ease due to this shape shifter nature.
Unfortunatly modern society has cast asside their Shaman and have forgoten thier Mother,  Earth.
In many older cultures we were revered and we were Priestess's. Look at how the Phrygians treated us. ...

Perhaps some day mankind will come back full circle and we will once again be the Shaman of the world.
A girl can dream.........

I lost religion at age 13 when my lifelong prayer, to wake up in a girl's body, went unanswered.  It was then that I realized that perhaps faith had nothing to do with religion and I was agnostic for about 10 years until I stumbled upon Paganism and realized how it matched what I already felt in my heart.  Now I consider myself not religious, but deeply spiritual.  And the best way to describe my spiritual beliefs is a mixture of Paganism, Buddhism, and Taoism.

Then again, maybe that's not even an accurate representation. :laugh:  In any case, I questioned the karmic repercussions of transition before I began, whether transitioning meant I was giving up the opportunity to learn lessons in this lifetime that I had to learn as a boy.  I then came to the conclusion that I (the eternal I) am more than my earthly biology, and perhaps the lesson was something that, up to that point in my life, I had not been able to do: living fully as myself, and so realizing my own potential, be able to give freely to others.  I could never participate fully in life's experience if I went on living a lie.  There was nothing I couldn't learn in a female body that I could have learned in a male body.  That's an oversimplification, but generally how I felt.

Quote from: Jordan R.T. on June 03, 2011, 11:36:26 AM
I have to wonder what Jesus would say to those people that use His word as a weapon!  :P

Hmm, let's see..

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. - Matthew 23:13

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! - verses 23 and 24 from the same chapter

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. - verses 27 and 28 as above

How I love the Seven Woes, they speak volumes in instances like these ;)

I am not out yet, mostly because I live with my Christian parents.

The people in their church almost all have this oppressive aura of condescending intolerance about them. Thinking back to all the childhood years of forced participation in that group leaves a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. It's left me too afraid to come out, and I will probably simply leave and never tell them who I really am. Needless to say, I was very unimpressed with religion and remain very apathetic toward it.

Quote from: pretty on June 03, 2011, 08:51:32 PM
I will probably simply leave and never tell them who I really am.

This is so sad but not uncommon at all.  When religious beliefs ultimately result in the breaking up of families I wonder why those who are doing the rejecting can't see how wrong this reaction is. 

In the majority of religions, it is completely contrary to their teachings.  Yet rarely does one hear of a religious leader admonishing the parent or family member for throwing their own flesh and blood out of the family for being gay or trans.  Unfortunately, it's the Christian believers who are the worst.

I want to say, "Before you criticize my house, fix your own."  But I know that would only fall on deaf ears because there's this omnipotent element in their beliefs.

Well, I wasn't raised very religious, but for about a year I was taking a lot of psychedelics.  They do change your perception of things, in some ways for better and in some for worse.  It's different for everyone, I guess.

I don't really know what I would call my beliefs.  I never had a strong belief in God, at least not the Abrahamic version.  It just never made sense to me that a loving and omnipotent being would allow so much to go wrong in this world, from famine and natural disasters to trans people feeling like their bodies are wrong.  I've read a little about Taoism, and I like it.  The concept that we all began as one being, then divided into Yin and Yang, and from there divided into everything else... it's not at all unlike a cell splitting into two cells, then four, and so on to create a living thing.  Basically, my belief is that "God" or whatever you want to call it, exists in all of us, is all of us, but isn't a sentient being, just a creative force and ever changing matter that makes up the universe.  I kind of thought this before coming out, but since have come to understand it a little more.  I don't call it God, because that implies some kind of sentience or control over us.  The universe, nature or something, doesn't have intent or rules that we're expected to follow, but we are it and it is us.  I hope that makes sense.

my views did change but I can't say that transition or HRT effects had something to do with it directly for sure. I had spent a great deal of time and thought on the subject and possibly would of progressed to where I am now regardless.
You could say my views were more or less of an atheist and I would question certain theists endlessly. All the killing and manipulation that goes on under the name of certain gods. But one day I decided I no longer wanted to feel I had the answer to a question that at this point in time is ultimately unknown so stepped back and realised that for me it would be better to be closer to agnostic.
I no longer had anything against all theists as I figured some just feel that for a better life for them they "believe", and have faith and hope in an unknown.. it gets them through the day and makes them happy so good on them! I then figured that atheists were more antagonistic than theists as all they seem to do is try and mock or criticise theists views, without any noticeable positivity. At least of what I have seen.
But like a lot of topics that I put a lot of time and thought into these days I simply no longer care or want to even know. I'd rather focus on things that are worth my time.

I was raised pagan and for me it actually took converting to atheism before I could come out and realize that my feelings of femininity were something biological and that I had to stop hiding behind the excuse that I had been a GG in a past life. I still wonder if past lives could be real and maybe that's the cause of my being trans but that wasn't relevant to the need to transition. :)

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 04, 2011, 09:11:52 AM
This is so sad but not uncommon at all.  When religious beliefs ultimately result in the breaking up of families I wonder why those who are doing the rejecting can't see how wrong this reaction is. 

In the majority of religions, it is completely contrary to their teachings.  Yet rarely does one hear of a religious leader admonishing the parent or family member for throwing their own flesh and blood out of the family for being gay or trans.  Unfortunately, it's the Christian believers who are the worst.

I want to say, "Before you criticize my house, fix your own."  But I know that would only fall on deaf ears because there's this omnipotent element in their beliefs.

I agree. I think I share the view of Christians when they argue that the problem is not in the teachings of the religion, but for different reasons.

I think the real problem is the sense of certainty it gives people, so they do not have to feel any personal responsiblity for their decisions. It allows and encourages people to make judgments with zero hesitation, based only on their poorly examined feelings and just say that it is the "will of God." And if it's not written in the bible, they simply find something mostly unrelated and interpret it in a convenient way.

[placeholder for future comment when I have more time]

well, for me, i actually understand spirituality now when for my whole life i either didn't care, payed no attention or it made me completely uncomfortable in every way. this one time i saw this wooden box on my mom's dresser when i was barely tall enough to see the things up there and grabbed it, there was nothing written or drawn on it so i opened it and inside the top of the box was a very detailed portrait of Jesus Christ, this giant cross, clouds and rays of light around an behind him. and for some reason it instantly scared me and i right away shut it, put it back, left the room and went up the stairs as if i had seen some kind of monster. well, images of him or people talking about him, God or religion always did that to me as a kid through to middle school and part of high school and even when i was in a youth group i was just going through the motions and trying to be "good." it made me slightly less depressed but i felt absolutely no closeness to God whatsoever.

luckily i wasn't raised in a religious family so there was no criticism for coming out as trans for that. but ever since i started re-reading a certain book i first read in 08. (i didn't even get that the first time) about spirituality that simplifies the meanings to scriptures throws in a few Jesus quotes (it's mostly about being in the now and present that you are not your thoughts you are the ever vibrant energy that is in all plant, animal and human life more than any religion...but i don't want to gush) and the last few days I've sort of astonished myself. i think about this Jesus fellow lot now, i actually want to learn more about him now that i finally get it. this feeling like i really should for some reason. like he'd be this cool person to hang out/talk with and he'd get me if i could actually do that. that i could actually sit and read a bible and i could keep my attention span and not fall asleep but instead find way more inspiration because i know no kind of God would make someone (LGBTQA) and then hate or refuse them. makes no sense. we're made to be exactly the way we are for a reason.

i love the idea from nemo that Jesus would yell at all the bigots of today with those words from Matthew, I'd LOVE to see that!

Kia Ora Julie,

My "spiritual" beliefs have evolved in the "right" direction in a very beneficial way[the middle way] and will continue to do so...

For a while I looked into Rastafarianism, well for quite a few years...

"Most people think,
Great god will come from the skies,
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high.
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights. Jah!"


::) There was still something missing....But it was good while it lasted though [if you know what I mean]  ;)   

Metta Zenda :)

I've been walking the Pagan pathways since my mid teens with a strong grounding in the Thelemic Ceremonial Magick traditions.  Like Zoë above, I debated the karmic implications of transitioning for a long time.  I've known since my earliest childhood memories that I was different on the inside than what the body presented on the outside.  I'd tried to be as comfortable in my own skin, the body I was born with, and to live this life as given to me as best I could to learn whatever lesson I was here to learn.  I'd wondered and debated if I chose to outwardly express that which was internal would I be throwing a monkey wrench in to the lesson plan as it were.

It was a few years ago that I had the epiphany that that does not matter.  Lessons will be learned regardless because ultimately we cannot know what we are here to learn until we pass between cycles and maybe not even then.  Maybe I was here to learn to accept myself, to learn to be properly true to myself and transition might be the actual lesson.  Maybe not, but then I could play the second guessing game until I drove myself completely nuts.  In the end I realized, I just need to be true to who I am and follow that path to wherever it might lead.  It did take me a couple of extra years to fully put that in practice though. Understanding does not always trump fear.  /lop sided smile

So, no I can't say my beliefs have changed, but maybe my understanding of my beliefs has. 

As a secondary thought.  One of the tenets of tenets of ceremonial magick is that magick is nothing more than causing change in conformance to your will.  Magick is not flashy, and in many cases it is rather mundane.  So for me, the process of transition is a very magickal / spiritual act.  :)

I was raised in a Southern Independent Fundamental Baptist family and religion was shoved down my throat. My mom went back and forth from straight and lesbian. Now she kisses her religion and family's arse/ I used to have faith in God until I was raped, then for two years my step brother molested me. Now in life, I honestly don't know what to think about God and religion. I believe there is a God, that He died on a cross, etc. But I am also wondering if I cna be cured and such. This whole TG thing is hard due to coming out, being judged, religion... the church I went to my entire life escorted me and my ex gf out and said not ot bother coming back because we were a disgrace and that "our kind" weren't welcome. This was on the assumption that I was a lesbian.

I am a philosopher and as such any beliefs I may or may not hold with regards to religion are essentially independent of my state of being. Whether I am out or closeted has nothing at all to do with the state of the world, the existence or non-existence of God/ess/god/esses. So as a result also has nothing to do with my beliefs on these matters. I am a sceptical agnostic. You can feel free to look that up but essentially it means that I accept the cold truth that no one, can ever experience God/ess/god/esses and so how can we ever make any meaningful statement with regards to them?

Anyway...


A lot of people here seem to be speaking ill of religion, not because of the religion itself but because of the fools and hypocrites abusing and using the message of its teachings to serve their own questionable ends.

Christianity seems to be taking the brunt of this anti-religious sentiment. Or suffering quite patently false comments such as "Yet rarely does one hear of a religious leader admonishing the parent or family member for throwing their own flesh and blood out of the family for being gay or trans.  Unfortunately, it's the Christian believers who are the worst."

Are you not aware of the teachings of fundamentalist Islam?

---

You ought not make judgments upon a religion, simply because of the ignorance of its supposed believers. Nor should you judge religious people because of the religion they hold. I am sure there are many Christians and people of other religions here. I suspect very view of them will be the prejudiced bigots that people fear.

---

People say that you can be blinded by religion.

My point?

Do not be blinded by the religion of others.

My beliefs have changed, but so have I. I'm not even sure if my changing beliefs are attributed just to the time that has passed or if it was a result of my trying to cement my identity.
I use to be agnostic, yet oddly God-fearing. I was very unsure of the existence of a higher power but feared that if there was one, I was doing something to anger Him/Her/It. I was also very spiritually aware of myself, my energy, and my Karma. I went out of my way to do good so my Karma would improve and I was more heavily involved with New Age practices.
I currently take a more Secular Humanist approach to things. I understand humans as animals in a unique position of free will and consciousness. Having faith is not required to be a good, compassionate person nor is any person inherently good or evil.

I personally don't believe in any religion- I see them as brainwashing. It seems that many times religion is used as a reason for people's and governments' horrible actions (war, killing, oppression, persecution, etc.).

However, I did believe in a Higher Power/God who helped us spiritually. I never saw him as a creator of worlds. I believed his main role & goal was to help us spiritually get through life and it's lessons.

Now, I have no faith in God. I need to stop using him as a crutch. Instead, I must rely on myself and the help of others when needed. When something is accomplished or good happens people say God did it. No, he didn't. You did it by planning, will power and taking action. For me, becoming stronger inside meant I had to take the reigns and create my own destiny and future and not rely on someone/something that may or may not exist.

I do believe in an afterlife and reincarnation, but I'm starting to believe there is no one source of power (God). I find the idea one person said about "God" is actually inside all living things and is no one being interresting.

I was raised as a Mormon.  I respect their views, but when I came out to my family, my mom (maybe my uncle) made sure to have the church visit me.  So I asked them to leave and then I visited the Elder of the local church.  I flat out asked him the stance of Mormons on trans folks.  He told me I am a sinner and being trans is not accepted by god.   I stood up, asked him not to have people call or visit me because I had no further belief that the church or being mormon was for me.

Now, I don't go to church any more.  Not that I don't believe there is a god, because I do believe in a god, just not what is force fed to me as a child and young adult.  I wish I could find a church I could believe in, but so far I have not found one.  Maybe one day.

My dad still jokes about me coming home from school one day when I was little and asking him what religion we were.  He told me that we were (our last name)-ists, which meant believing what you believe without being willing to be bullied into what you don't or pushing it on others.  (I happily accepted that went off to play.)  By that definition, I'm still a devout follower of (my last name)-ism, though the specifics have changed and no longer involve a higher being.  However this was before aiming for transition.  I'll let you know if anything drastic changes, but I am very comfortable in my current set of beliefs and morals. 

Like some of you, I was not raised in a religious household. I did however get sucked into Christianity for 4 years. After coming out as lesbian I realized I could no longer support a group of people who think I'm bound for hell. I quit going to church and denounced my faith. It does suck that Christians use their bible to condemn people. I haven't told anyone about my issues with gender, but whatever Christian friends I have I might lose. It's just life. I now have a lot of friends in the LGBT community. Although, I don't have any trans friends.  :(

I consider my foray into Christianity my "lost weekend".

I was raised catholic, but not strict religious. Since my teens I have gradually shifted to somewhere between agnostic and atheist but I don't think it is related to my transition.

For the most part the Netherlands is a pretty tolerant place from a religious point of view, I think. Personally I know some people who attend a very strict church (no work on Sunday's of any kind, including television. Though I think they have softened a bit the last few years) and we get along very well. There are some pockets of "bible thumpers" in the country but I mostly avoid those areas.

In my American half of the family I have a cousin who is very religious. When I first came out and he heard about it, he was let us say "resistant to the idea". We get along fine these days. I suppose I have been lucky in that respect.

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 04, 2011, 09:11:52 AM
This is so sad but not uncommon at all.  When religious beliefs ultimately result in the breaking up of families I wonder why those who are doing the rejecting can't see how wrong this reaction is. 

In the majority of religions, it is completely contrary to their teachings.  Yet rarely does one hear of a religious leader admonishing the parent or family member for throwing their own flesh and blood out of the family for being gay or trans.  Unfortunately, it's the Christian believers who are the worst.

I want to say, "Before you criticize my house, fix your own."  But I know that would only fall on deaf ears because there's this omnipotent element in their beliefs.

Still reading the thread - but just a tiny point of order here - the stricter interpretations of Islam are much more harsh on this point than any sort of Christianity - at least Christians are not stonning us or performing "honor killings"

the home I was raised in was only nominally Christian (in the sense that virtually all Southern American homes are nominally Christian. My father had been raised Southern Baptist and my Mom AR Presbyterian.

We spent every weekend with grandparents (my brother and I) alternating between the two as the grandparents were actual practicing Christians.

I was "saved" as the Baptists call it when I was nine, in what was probably my first attempt to get "normal" (I knew already i was trans but didn't know what it meant that i was supposed to be a girl, or that anyone else ever felt that way).

Through my teen years, I tried to reconcile my "perversion" with my faith (which was sincere if ill-informed) with varying degrees of seriousness.

When I was 22, after having spent about 3 or 4 years "backsliding" (another Baptist cliche) I attended a crusade at which an evangelist named Freddie Gage (who's still at it i believe) told me (from the pulpit, not personally) that God would heal anyone of their "besetting sins" (listing off a long list which included alcoholism, drug addiction, and homosexuality) if they would give it to God and serve him wholeheartedly.

I took that seriously and re-committed myself to my faith at that point and for the next 21 years, I pulled out all the stops. Faithful church attendance, years of tithing, teaching classes, going into the ministry and preaching, you name it. also, of course, getting married and starting a family (married a little over 3 years after the crusade)  based on my faith that God would in fact rid me of my unfortunate condition.

Along the way I privately prayed, begged, pleaded, bargained, - you name it - with god to somehow get him to do what the preacher had promised me he would. He didn't. Meanwhile I was publicly towing the SBC line and repeating the same lies I'd been told ("It's a choice" "no one is born that way" and etc). Even when I had clear evidence those things were not true.

Eventually, I had to ask myself - do i serve a God who will command you not do or be a thing which you can repent of for 20 years and still not be free from?

Makes no sense.

Do I serve a god who, in spite of all the teachings about grace, would condemn me for being something I desperately dfid not want to be?

didn't add up.

Is there any other explanation which would account for how i fel other than a condition present from birth?

Nope.

the obvious conclusion then, is that I was botrn this way - and that any God worth following wouldn't condemn a soul for something they were born with.

In short, if i WAS born this way, then the church had it wrong. now, for a believer, it's no mean thing to assume that centuries of scholars and experts have studied the Word and reached an incorrect conclusion - BUT given my situation, I had no choice but to re-examine the record. and not just as it related to being trans but the whole thing.

In point of fact, it's not a matter of the Bible being wrong, it's the people. Throughout the history of the church there's a track record of people reading their cultural bigotries into the word and dressing their bad ideas in the robes of religion. (Racial bigotries, for instance, or the state church, or forced evangelism).

If i looked with a more skeptical eye, I had to note that various groups of Christians, all professing to faithfully follow the Scripture, could not agree even on the most fundamental foundations of Christianity (how to be reconciled to God, the proper mode of worship and prayer, the proper form of Baptism and what it meant, the nature of the afterlife).

If that was true, how could anyone state with confidence what God had to say about trans people (or Gays)?  Heck, in my part of the word different denominations couldn't agree on how people were supposed to dress. Clearly  there had to be SOME reason why this bunch said a woman shouldn't wear pants and that bunch said it was alright.  The obvious conclusion was human beings seeing in the word what they wanted to see - that which confirmed their own biases.

Once those "scales fell from my eyes" I had to look at the whole book differently, the whole nature of what God intended vs. what man did with it.

i've always been of the opinion that the divine was far more than humans could begin to grasp, and we know if him only that tiny sliver which he decided to reveal of himself. i still think that's true, but in an even broader context.

I view the Bible as a series of object lessons, in a sense, like fables. I do not think that it is necessary to believe that Noah, or Job, or Joesph were actual people to learn the lesson God would have us learn from the stories about them.

I do think it is his word, and i do think the ultimate truth is the God paid the price for us that, as imperfect beings, we could never pay for ourselves (there's a lot deeper theology behind that but i won't bore you) - but the details of any given story are not the point - the point is that (1) God is, (2) he helped us where we could not help ourselves in terms of relating to him, and (3) he tried to give us a picture of how we are supposed to live and relate to each other. the bible is not a history book, it's a lesson book in how to get on in this world - illustrated by both positive and negative stories.
And, most importantly, only to be understood in the context of the original audience who would first hear it. Whatever we get from it is secondary.

By religion now is basically a sort of Christ-centered deism.  I don't think any Christian denomination gets it right and i think most of them are very obtuse in insisting that they do, with very little flexibility for re-thinking traditional doctrines.

also - and this is surely self-serving, and might be just an emotional stage I'm going through - I've found myself with almost a hedonistic attitude. I'm so disillusioned with rules-based religion that I have a hard time respecting ANY moral rules right now. If i had the equipment and opportunity, I'm pretty sure I'd be a notorious slut. I simply am burnt completely out on "proper behavior"

I'm assuming this will pass.

  It hasn't evolved that much, just my angst and rage moderated quite a bit.   It is like my mother chewing out that fifth grade teacher I had.  She said "You want rubber stamped children, well, I don't raise rubber stamp children!  All of my children are different and I love them that way!"  God does not create rubber stamp souls as well, it is part of His plan.  The same rules apply, but there are some flexibility in some of them to accommodate all those different souls. 
  Even my identical 4 1/2 year old identical twin grandnieces say they're different.  They deplore identical clothing and toys!   
  Joelene

Well I've been kinda wanting to share my beliefs more in depth so I guess I will here. BIG piece of writing here. Sorry, pretty much dumped my entire spiritual belief system here. Anyway...

I no longer call myself "christian" because that term in usage is far different then in definition. In definition, it means to believe in and accept Jesus CHRIST as savior. In usage, it means to be part of a xenophobic collective hivemind that requires you to think the same way, believe the same way and live the same way as dictated. I only recently cast off that term, but does not mean I have cast off my beliefs which, while unorthodox are still in line with the -definition- of being christian.

So what does that all mean? First, you need to understand that the entire basis of Christianity as a religious doctrine is founded on a MASSIVE assumption. That assumption is "The writers of the bible were guided by divine inspiration and thus the words in the bible are infallible.". This belief comes out of the thin blue air and is repeatedly contradicted by events and statements within the bible itself. For instance; "All people are 'evil' and liable to sin" But not the jews who wrote it? Even Matthew, a disciple, broke his promise to Jesus and denied his knowledge of that man when interrogated. Taking this and more into account, to take the bible literally is absolutely foolish. Seeking metaphors is just stupid too, either whats written is TRUE or it is FALSIFIED.

Which comes to my second point. How does one know whats true or false? What is the writings of a concerned priest wanting to maintain his ideal of morality, or the word of god? Well that in my belief is what Jesus came here for. He said that "the church is inside you" and that faith in Christ "will show you the way". What he was saying was "Accept me, for I live in your heart and can guide you from there. The house of god resides here.". So, establishing a deep, spiritual connection within yourself is absolutely crucial. Rather then read the bible, I simply read my heart these days. It does sort of become like some Christians talk about "walking with god".

From there, my beliefs have become much more fluid. At heart i only hold a few things to be absolute.
God wants you to be happy. Anyone who tries to deny you this "in the name of god" is mislead.
Sins are sins for a reason. Most have consequences and none of them lead to true happiness. To be a sin, an action must have a actual negative consequence. The 10 commandments are a obvious example. Another example; Sodomy is not a sin, neglecting your wife and children to engage in it is.
Hell does not exist, at least not in the way it is written. There is no way for a human in one life time to commit enough evil to justify a ETERNITY of suffering. Purgatory, maybe. Self made, mental hell? Very likely, but not necessarily eternal.
Jews are not a chosen people. This is the most blatant piece of nationalistic writing there is. Every religion conveniently describes its founding race as being a "Chosen people". This is a HUGE tip off that the bible is not written by divine guidance.
Revelations, Isn't.
People all over the world, with or without Jesus's words, have managed to establish that connection to some extent and come up with some truth. The are worth listening to.

Controversial: Regarding the nature of the universe, creation, ect. Currently my main view is that the world is largely mundane. It runs on carefully specified clockwork, wound up and let go during the big bang. Like dominos set up to fall in a certain way. Absolute knowledge of all the laws of the universe allows god to be the beginning and know the end so as to essentially be "the alpha and omega" at the same time. Sort of like Laplace's demon only with two quirks. Free will and Quantum variability. Humans possess free will, and I believe at the quantum level is where god can effect change "in real time". Perhaps changing the way air molecules randomly interact with lead molecules of a bullet, gently causing it to take one of a near infinite number of slight deviations, to avoid hitting you. This like all predetermination stances has the age old issue of "What about free will? Where do we figure in?". Hm, when I think about it, how 'free' are we? We are after all products of our surroundings, genetics, history, ect. Again I think any variation here is extremely subtle, like the path a bullet takes through air.

Of course I have a competing, much more spiritual/animistic view as well. That reality itself is made up of the  so called "holy spirit". It is in that way that asking god for help can effect real change. Kind of like a spiritual matrix. This is more of my instinctive view, because lord knows I ask for help a lot. Way more then simple quantum interactions could achieve, as far as I know.

So any way, I've done my duty. I hope at the very least I helped you get some sleep tonight. xD

The problem I have with the Bible being written under Divine Inspiration and it being God's Word is, If this is truly God's word and God is infallible, why are there so many ways to interpret it?

I have heard believers say, "God wants you to figure it out for yourself."  You mean God, all knowing God, who should know full well that people would interpret His Word in countless ways if there is the slightest bit of ambiguity, and end up with numerous versions, still went ahead and told the writers to write what they did?  Does this Guy just like to mess with us?

No all-knowing, all-seeing, infallible, kind and loving entity would do this.  Not the God I grew up being told about.  So the only conclusion is the Bible was written by man, just as each writer saw things.  And by reading some of the stuff, I think there was an element of mental disorder with some of these guys.

What makes you think that you would be able to easily understand the ultimate being of the Universe with an intellect and ability in all things stretching into infinity?

Maybe the message is that there is never any one message and that any situation can be seen from many perspectives and interpreted in many ways :P

when people get into the really complicated questions i just think "i can believe whatever i want no matter what anyone says, can't take the bible literally and God is not something to believe or not, God IS." and am able to relax.

Quote from: Seras on June 18, 2011, 11:58:41 AM
What makes you think that you would be able to easily understand the ultimate being of the Universe with an intellect and ability in all things stretching into infinity?

Yeah, the whole concept of infinity can be mind boggling.  I've been "dabbling" in trying to fathom that since I was a kid.  But it was only recently that I began to look at the underlayment of religion.  And that came about once I stopped hiding the fact I'm trans.  What followed was I was banished from "normal" society. 

Going from someone who enjoyed all the rights and privileges of the mainstream male to those of a trans woman was pretty shocking.  I had no idea how deep prejudice and bigotry can be seated within a person.  I always knew there was a negative view of trans people but I never made the effort to find the source.   And when I started digging for the root of this, I found religion at the base.

Common sense, based on what I was taught about religion, told me this was hypocritical.  I thought religious people were kind and loving and accepting.  But what I saw flew in the face of that belief.  While I know most religious people are what I have always believed them to be, I found the most vocal to be just the opposite.  But whenever you have a large group of people all believing in the same thing, it will attract power hungry, greedy people looking to lead them.  And they are the ones doing the damage.

I've never been very religious, but I became a 'radical' atheist since I've been 15, and I still am. I live for me, and not for someone else; it's selfish sounding, but I don't need motivation to be the best person I can be. My consternation with certain religious groups has merely increased due to the fact that now I'm one of the groups specifically discriminated against by some dumb people (most religious people are quite nice, and I do have some slightly religious friends). I'm complacent in the fact that not everything can be answered, and that I don't need a scripture or a deity to give meaning to my life. When I die, I my consciousness will be extinguished, and my body will rot. If I lived a good life, and people choose to remember me, then I am happy. To some this sounds depressing, but I don't mind, because there is a lot of motivation for me to have a fulfilling life, and to make the most of it. Now that I'm on the way to being happy through the process of transition, I finally feel as if I can make the most of my life.

I will not criticise anyone on their beliefs, since if that's what makes them happy, and it's harming no one, then I'm happy they're happy.

the knee-jerk instinct is to defend people of faith, based on the huge number of them who give deeply of their time and treasure for others.

But ultimately, why bother? if the concept of God I find reasonable is true, he acted on our behalf BECAUSE we are broken, flawed, failing people. A rousing defense of how good religious people can be is false without that context.

do I believe in "religion"? Not remotely. It hasn't been the source of all humannity's ills, but it is an example of one of the ways people en mass tend to screw up, no matter how reasonable the belief system.

I do not think the failings of religion tell us much one way or the other about God, unless your only concept of God is a meddling control freak who seeks to pull the strings on a world full of puppets.

I was brought up in a Baptist home, but I was always extremely nervous about the faith. I never felt the holy spirit's presence, and that always bothered me. Every time they would ask the young "non-Christians" to come and do the prayer (the admit, believe, and confess thing), I'd always go. The pastor got kind of worried about me. I got baptized when I was 10. I liked the ceremony, but it felt empty to me. At night, I'd lie awake and pray, asking for some sign of existence (even though the Sunday school teachers always said this didn't work, you had to have faith -- I didn't get that either). A lot of times, I'd address prayers to a goddess, like god's wife, but I'd always apologize to god for this, explaining I was doing so "just in case she exists".

I gradually stopped going to church once I realized the faith wasn't for me. I didn't like how it seemed like everyone was using god just to get into heaven, and I didn't like how they made god out to be so petty than he would actually condemn someone to an eternity of torture for things they did in a life that wouldn't even last forever. I also don't see Yeshua of Nazareth as a god. I mean, he seems like a nice character and all, but I see him more as a rabbi-carpenter who was trying to reform Judaism. I don't know a lot about him.

I studied different spiritualities -- I tried Wicca, but even the god/goddess duo was iffy for me. I'm also very bad at keeping rituals and learning holidays, and I guess I never really scratched the surface of the faith. I respect it, it just doesn't click with me. I tried Buddhism as well, but nirvana scares me. Eternal bliss sounds nice and all, but I see it like this -- if one is always happy, they will eventually be numbed to the emotion. There can be no bliss without chaos.

So I've kind of evolved into a spiritual secularist. I believe, but I refuse to take sides. I believe every "holy" being ever considered in any way by any being (of any kingdom -- plant, animal, etc.) exists, possibly forever, living its own life and helping those who need help, even if on accident. I'm sure we help them without knowing sometimes. I don't think any of them are higher or lower than us. They're all equal. Afterlife is whatever you want. I wish for reincarnation. I don't believe hell exists. If you think someone's going to hell, your idea of them might, but they won't unless they want to.

I don't think any of this was related to my gender or sexuality. I never prayed for a magic sex change. I mean, I once confided in a goddess that I'd like the idea, but I knew it would never happen.

I respect religions and faiths, but the followers must earn my respect.

I was raised Jewish but I was never very religious to begin with. I went to services, celebrated holidays, and had a bnai mitzvah with my twin brother. Though those things were fun, I don't know how to believe in the tales of religion. I can't say that being trans has affected how religious I am because I didn't really like the idea of religion before. I don't mind it at all. However, I do not like how it is used to discriminate against minorities.

I posted this link in Just For Us.  I came across it when googling something else.  It may be useful for those here who lean towards Christianity.  Also useful for defending yourself from those who hurl Bible passages at you.

http://whosoever.org/index.shtml (http://whosoever.org/index.shtml)


Jay

Ooh, thanks Jay! ;D *bookmarks*

In my beliefs, it's very important to behave according to one's natural self, and purely live by the strengths of a creature.  Civilization is alright since they're just tools set by humans acting in the way they naturally behave in, but one problem in my beliefs is finding any self-alterations abhorrent: Unnatural developments and progress of the body was believed to break synchronization between body and soul, and in that I considered any kind of augmenting (like implants), drugs (Even if life-saving), etc., would be sync breaking.
Naturally, I wasn't going to be up for doing anything for being a transsexual for those beliefs, but when the feelings hit me hard, I really carefully went over the details behind that part of the beliefs, and really kind of felt like it wasn't really that logical after all.  I redecided that if it's acting according to our natural self to use body alterations, that isn't it natural like anything else? D: Additionally, I thought about the nature of what exactly the soul was syncing up towards in the first place, and I realize that there's a lot more I could stand to think of in that in the first place...

Butyeah, if I never accepted myself, I don't think I'd ever really secondguess my beliefs on that area. ^^;

I went from being an Assembly of God Youth Pastor of 10 years to a Interfaith Wiccan (basically, a Wiccan who find truths in all religions). I am now going to a progressive christian seminary.

My standpoints had gone from fundamentalist to progressive.

It wasn't really that I had changed so much per say. Rather, I have the freedom to worship and believe how I want to. :)

Blessings Be,