Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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Patience, me dear, boobs take 4-5 years to develop fully, and I guess the hips and so on will take their time as well, especially if you're younger - most young women go through a relatively hipless stage before they fill out.

I hope it's normal because that's the path my body's taken as well. :laugh:  I'm 5.5 months HRT and gained 25 pounds since March (5'11", went from 118 pounds to 142) just so I could have some fat to redistribute.  Suffered through 4000-5000 calories a day, only to wind up with 80% of the weight around my belly.  I think 5% went to my face and 15% to my butt, giving me little hip-looking things but absolutely no breasts whatsoever.  I probably couldn't even fill a AA cup.

Obviously those aren't scientific measurements, just simplifications for illustrative purposes. ;)  Hopefully fat will start working itself out into a more feminine pattern soon, because what I got was quite distinctly male.

I just meant young in terms of people in general - most men and women don't develop full adult body characteristics until they're well into their 20's, so if you're already slim, you may expect to remain fairly slim for a while, I think. Nothing's hard and fast about all this, though, so keep up the higher calories and don't overdo (or underdo) the exercise, to maintain a good balance between having some fat to redistribute, and having some body tone to carry it (this is just based on stuff I've read, so take it with as much salt as you like - others may have different perspectives on this).

You may want to talk to your endo. If your E &T are not in the right levels, you will not get fat distribution in a female pattern. Good luck!!!

Quote from: JadeS on June 09, 2011, 07:06:03 AM
Hey, so I've been on HRT for a while, 9-10 months. I've recently started gaining a bit of weight on purpose so I could have more curves (went from 108lbs to around 115lbs currently, 5'6"), but it's all going into my stomach and I look as flat as before except I have a belly now, is this normal? Thanks.

Yes it is in many cases unfortunitely. I'm skinny like you are and the only fat I had was on my belly and the HRT seems to continue to target that area as it would with male type fat distribution rather than change the fat distribution like it should with a genetic female. I have had the same problem for years. HRT doesn't seem to want to work on me and it just puts fat on my belly and little elsewhere. I also probably couldn't fill an AA cup and I've been on HRT for 12 years!

Quote from: StacyBeaumont on June 09, 2011, 08:14:45 AM
You may want to talk to your endo. If your E &T are not in the right levels, you will not get fat distribution in a female pattern. Good luck!!!

My Estrogen levels are very high and my testoterone levels are low at about 0.8, so it's not related to hormonal levels. It's more related to your own genetics.

I guess it's not the worse thing ever because I still have a somewhat female shape even without fat adding to my hips, etc. Since I've been eating more I got a lot more boob growth though, so that's pretty encouraging! I went from 34A to almost 34B, and lots of boob pain, I hadn't had any in a while, probably due to undereating

Quote from: JadeS on June 09, 2011, 07:45:24 AM
I have hips (somewhat) but they're mostly bones.. i have like 24" waist, 32" hips, it looks really flat, and now with a belly it's even worse because it looks dumb

I recall reading somewhere that some of the more 'ideal' ratios that were observed in real life generally had the waist at 70% of the hip measurement.  And if that recollection is right, you are not that far off. 

You are also young enough that even natal women have not really developed their hips.  I've got a few assistants in my office who did not even develop significant hips AFTER having given birth while another REALLY expanded with child number one. 

There are also issues related to your genetic patterns...some families just tend to be skinny.  And if genetics are not in your favor, you won't be rocking a J-Lo-esque image anytime soon ;) 

I am not one who ever developed a lot of hip or butt (and I took my first pills 20 some odd years ago) and instead look very much like someone who might have played WBB in college (if you look at a lot of the D1 women, there are a fair number of sticks out there who don't have large hips)...athletic would be a description that could be applied to me.  In fact, when I met up with Kristi for lunch (described in her Odyssey thread), she saw me in basic softball/Saturday trip to Home Depot mode.  There is nothing wrong with just being average in appearance...

Quote from: JadeS on June 09, 2011, 07:38:59 AM
I started at 17 and I've been 18 for a bit I don't know if that's considered young for HRT

Pre puberty is young, as there's only fractional changes after puberty but sometimes those fractional changes make a difference like what happened to the tip of my nose for instance haha :P.

Hard to say what will happen to any individual but pre puberty is young that's the bottom line,  for me I can't imagine massive change in my hips, but apparently it can happen has nothing to do with age, your hips might grow Jade 9-10 months is certainly still early days.

I wasn't fully done with puberty, because I can't grow any facial hair or body hair and I wasn't done with growth yet, which is why I'm at 5'6, with a small ribcage (28" is small right? not counting boobs), and my hips bone definitely widened and I got some other random changes (went from 31" at 160-170lbs to 32" at 108-115lb, back then I had a LOt of fat around it and these days it's all bones but looks way wider/nicer, so i guess it did grow else it doesnt make sense). My frame is really small overall too, I'm half the size of most guys my age

Izumi said the good stuff happens at 2 years of HRT, I'd pm her ask her :)

You're definitely lucky to be quite young on HRT on the hair issue it's my bugbear (very apt word haha). Your skeleton sounds good, for me skeletally I definitely think going through puberty as I did was a good thing apart from the hips :/, I'm a large female in all respects hands, feet, chest and I think it will be great now I'm transitioning :D

I really hope the curves kick in Izumi is definitely one person to ask about this, there's plenty of others too :)

I think it's a delicate balance of age and genetics...

Like you, Jade, I have a very small frame and pretty thin.  Though I grew to 5'11" when I was 12 years old, I never grew a single hair taller after that and my body didn't fill out at all.  I've got small shoulders, thin arms, thin legs.  Also, I never grew an adam's apple or body hair, and only about 50% of my face had any whiskers at all (half of which started turning white at 16).  I was 3 days from my 33rd birthday when I started HRT, and given how completely non-masculinized I was, I expected some pretty big changes.

Now, after nearly 6 months, my arms and face became quite feminine, but the rest of my body seems to be resisting change.  I was shocked to find that I had pretty high T levels, and spiro did nothing to knock them down so my doc switched my AA.  My T and E numbers are ideal, but changes still aren't happening and my body is depositing fat in a visibly noticeable male pattern.  Maybe more time on HRT will change this?  I hope so!  Breast development is virtually nil, and I've no clue where I'll end up because my mom is 3 cup sizes smaller than her mother and all 3 of her sisters, and my own sister is 2 cups bigger than our mom (and my sister is 4" taller than our mom, athletic, and weighs the same as mom).

Genetics are weird. :laugh:

Quote from: StacyBeaumont on June 09, 2011, 08:14:45 AM
You may want to talk to your endo. If your E &T are not in the right levels, you will not get fat distribution in a female pattern. Good luck!!!

... and if you not genetically predisposed to have hips, a round butt, etc you won't get them either... despite how "prefect" your levels may or may not be. 

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on June 09, 2011, 11:08:50 AM
I think it's a delicate balance of age and genetics...

Like you, Jade, I have a very small frame and pretty thin.  Though I grew to 5'11" when I was 12 years old, I never grew a single hair taller after that and my body didn't fill out at all.  I've got small shoulders, thin arms, thin legs.  Also, I never grew an adam's apple or body hair, and only about 50% of my face had any whiskers at all (half of which started turning white at 16).  I was 3 days from my 33rd birthday when I started HRT, and given how completely non-masculinized I was, I expected some pretty big changes.

Genetics are weird. :laugh:

+100. Genetics plays a huge role.

Estrogen is not a magic pill that will make you develop hips, breasts, butt, etc even after several years, if you were never genetically predisposed to have those traits to begin with. Genetics is huge. There are plenty of genetic women walking around with a beer-gut and they look like a nose tackle for the Green Bay Packers from behind. I'd also recommend some sort of cardio exercise to those worried about building up too much belly fat. Sit-ups, crunches, etc.

Quote from: JennX on June 09, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
... and if you not genetically predisposed to have hips, a round butt, etc you won't get them either... despite how "prefect" your levels may or may not be. 

+100. Genetics plays a huge role.

Estrogen is not a magic pill that will make you develop hips, breasts, butt, etc even after several years, if you were never genetically predisposed to have those traits to begin with. Genetics is huge. There are plenty of genetic women walking around with a beer-gut and they look like a nose tackle for the Green Bay Packers from behind. I'd also recommend some sort of cardio exercise to those worried about building up too much belly fat. Sit-ups, crunches, etc.

I agree and more or less what I said earlier but better presented.

Quote from: JennX on June 09, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
I'd also recommend some sort of cardio exercise to those worried about building up too much belly fat. Sit-ups, crunches, etc.

The only way to be sure is to keep fairly trim in general, as fat in specific locations can't really be targetted via exercise.

Genetics is obviously very important but it's also no something you can do anything about.  If you want to change something, focus on what you do have control over. HRT can work magic but everyone won't have the same results but you can increase your chances of it working magic by monitoring your blood chemistry and keeping things within their optimum range.

HGH (growth hormone) may be important to fat distribution as well.

http://www.rodrigoborges.com/pdf/composicao_09.pdf (http://www.rodrigoborges.com/pdf/composicao_09.pdf)




Thiazolindinediones (AVANDIA) are useful in achieving female type fat distribution in male to female transsexuals

I Malik1, J Barrett2 & L Seal1,2

1St George's Healthcare NHS trust, London, UK; 2Gender Identity Clinic, West London Mental Health Trust, London, UK.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0019/ea0019p74.htm (http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0019/ea0019p74.htm)
A 45-year-old male to female transsexual presented with poor female fat distribution. She had been treated with oestrogen for 13 years, initially as ethinyl oestradiol to a maximum dose of 150 ug/day, presently taking 100 mcg with GNRH analogue. On this regimen she had B cup breast development but underwent breast augmentation surgery and still suffered from low self-esteem. She was dissatisfied with her body image because she perceived a male body fat distribution. Her initial assessment revealed BMI of 26 kg/m2, central adiposity with waist measurement of 100 cm, hip measurement of 105 cm.

She was commenced on rosiglitazone 2 mg/day and after 14 months of therapy her waist size dropped to 82.5 cms and hip measurement to 94.5 cms and at this point, her right and left thigh measurements were 45×44 cms respectively. Another 6 months of treatment on Rosiglitazone lead to drop in waist & hip measurement to 82×93 cms respectively and an increase in right and left thigh measurements to 49×47 cms respectively, which gave her a more desirable body image.

Dissatisfaction with body image can be devastating to the psychological well being of a transsexual individual. Cosmetic surgical procedures like liposuction are invasive, not cost effective or free of complications and may not necessarily prove to be a long-term solution for an individual and therefore medical therapy with thiazolindinediones may have a place as therapy in achieving body shape change. Thiazolindinediones are known to have effects on fat metabolism and body fat redistribution and can shift fat form central adipose stores to the subcutaneous tissue, and therefore rosiglitazone was tried in this case.

This is the first report of the use of thiozolidinediones (AVANDIA) to enhance a female fat distribution in a male to female transsexual on oestrogen treatment.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Endocrine Abstracts (2009) 19 P74

Quote from: StacyBeaumont on June 10, 2011, 10:19:27 AM
HGH (growth hormone) may be important to fat distribution as well.

http://www.rodrigoborges.com/pdf/composicao_09.pdf (http://www.rodrigoborges.com/pdf/composicao_09.pdf)




Thiazolindinediones (AVANDIA) are useful in achieving female type fat distribution in male to female transsexuals

I Malik1, J Barrett2 & L Seal1,2

1St George's Healthcare NHS trust, London, UK; 2Gender Identity Clinic, West London Mental Health Trust, London, UK.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0019/ea0019p74.htm (http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0019/ea0019p74.htm)
A 45-year-old male to female transsexual presented with poor female fat distribution. She had been treated with oestrogen for 13 years, initially as ethinyl oestradiol to a maximum dose of 150 ug/day, presently taking 100 mcg with GNRH analogue. On this regimen she had B cup breast development but underwent breast augmentation surgery and still suffered from low self-esteem. She was dissatisfied with her body image because she perceived a male body fat distribution. Her initial assessment revealed BMI of 26 kg/m2, central adiposity with waist measurement of 100 cm, hip measurement of 105 cm.

She was commenced on rosiglitazone 2 mg/day and after 14 months of therapy her waist size dropped to 82.5 cms and hip measurement to 94.5 cms and at this point, her right and left thigh measurements were 45×44 cms respectively. Another 6 months of treatment on Rosiglitazone lead to drop in waist & hip measurement to 82×93 cms respectively and an increase in right and left thigh measurements to 49×47 cms respectively, which gave her a more desirable body image.

Dissatisfaction with body image can be devastating to the psychological well being of a transsexual individual. Cosmetic surgical procedures like liposuction are invasive, not cost effective or free of complications and may not necessarily prove to be a long-term solution for an individual and therefore medical therapy with thiazolindinediones may have a place as therapy in achieving body shape change. Thiazolindinediones are known to have effects on fat metabolism and body fat redistribution and can shift fat form central adipose stores to the subcutaneous tissue, and therefore rosiglitazone was tried in this case.

This is the first report of the use of thiozolidinediones (AVANDIA) to enhance a female fat distribution in a male to female transsexual on oestrogen treatment.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Endocrine Abstracts (2009) 19 P74

Been there (Charing Cross) got the T shirt, and thiozolidinediones doesn't work!

Quote from: JennX on June 09, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
... and if you not genetically predisposed to have hips, a round butt, etc you won't get them either... despite how "prefect" your levels may or may not be. 

+100. Genetics plays a huge role.

Estrogen is not a magic pill that will make you develop hips, breasts, butt, etc even after several years,

How would you know the long term effects of HRT?  Much like you don't know the role genetics plays for the individual it varies case by case,  hugely but not in the way you mean it, one female develops early in puberty another later, or develops in one way early on and will never develop in another way.

Quote from: JennX on June 09, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
if you were never genetically predisposed to have those traits to begin with. Genetics is huge.

This part is true but unless you're from the 19th Century it's stating the bleedin obvious lol.  Even with genetic determination people can work at through exercise and diet to maximise what they do have,  the role of confidence in general body image is HUGE as big as genetics ;)  Some even have surgery for psychological reasons, why not but be very clear in what is being done and for what reasons.

Quote from: Kori on June 10, 2011, 08:48:03 AM
The only way to be sure is to keep fairly trim in general, as fat in specific locations can't really be targetted via exercise.

Yes... it can. It's called targeted training as a matter of fact.

Quote from: Lexia on June 10, 2011, 07:19:07 PM
How would you know the long term effects of HRT?  Much like you don't know the role genetics plays for the individual it varies case by case,  hugely but not in the way you mean it, one female develops early in puberty another later, or develops in one way early on and will never develop in another way.

I'm not stating that I do. Quiet the opposite. It's a mixed bag... some will have great progress, others little to none. There is no way to predict. It's really disconcerting to sit here and read day, after day, after day, some people exposing the huge factor HRT plays in physical and anatomical changes, when in reality it is only a small part of the puzzle. Suffice it to say, that if you (or anyone else, and I know there are a few here) that believe HRT (no matter how vigorous, or what method of delivery) is going to turn you into a Victoria's Secret Super Model, or yet more pedestrian still... a passable... for all appearances "genetic looking female"... this is simply not true. Some changes will take place, but they are not the dramatic, physical, life altering, changes some make them out to be. It simply does not work that way. And the entire outcome, despite the amount of time and effort involved, mostly depends on genetics more than anything else... which are unpredictable at best. There simply are no guarantees in life.

Quote from: Lexia on June 10, 2011, 07:19:07 PMThis part is true but unless you're from the 19th Century it's stating the bleedin obvious lol.  Even with genetic determination people can work at through exercise and diet to maximise what they do have,  the role of confidence in general body image is HUGE as big as genetics ;)  Some even have surgery for psychological reasons, why not but be very clear in what is being done and for what reasons.

... and this is why plastic surgeons are still in business. ;)

Quote from: JennX on June 10, 2011, 09:54:10 PM
Yes... it can. It's called targeted training as a matter of fact.

Body fat isn't burned in proximity to the muscles being used during exercise.

I hit a full 34A for boobs recently, so I guess that part is working well, I just hope the rest follows

After 2 months of HRT I have noticed  a slight  reduction in upper abdominal fat, but not lower. :)  Also some being added to my thighs, the muscle definition that was pronounced is not as great as it used to be. ;D
Still no hips or waist though dammit! >:( 
There may be a slight filling out in my face too, but it is possibly just my imagination.
Karen.

Quote from: JennX on June 10, 2011, 10:05:39 PM
It's really disconcerting to sit here and read day, after day, after day, some people exposing the huge factor HRT plays in physical and anatomical changes, when in reality it is only a small part of the puzzle. Suffice it to say, that if you (or anyone else, and I know there are a few here) that believe HRT (no matter how vigorous, or what method of delivery) is going to turn you into a Victoria's Secret Super Model, or yet more pedestrian still... a passable... for all appearances "genetic looking female"... this is simply not true. Some changes will take place, but they are not the dramatic, physical, life altering, changes some make them out to be. It simply does not work that way. And the entire outcome, despite the amount of time and effort involved, mostly depends on genetics more than anything else... which are unpredictable at best. There simply are no guarantees in life.

When people speak in absolutes, the best thing to do generally is ignore them, you included.

Quote from: JadeS on June 09, 2011, 07:06:03 AM
Hey, so I've been on HRT for a while, 9-10 months. I've recently started gaining a bit of weight on purpose so I could have more curves (went from 108lbs to around 115lbs currently, 5'6"), but it's all going into my stomach and I look as flat as before except I have a belly now, is this normal? Thanks.

Honestly, I still stand by my word in my previous post... I think good diet and a nice exercise routine will help distribute your fat in the right places as long as your hormones are consistent.  Look into exercising your legs, abs, butt and hips... or download a body sculpting program.  It definitely won't hurt =)

Quote from: JennX on June 10, 2011, 09:54:10 PM
Yes... it can. It's called targeted training as a matter of fact.

That's not exactly accurate.  You cannot spot train a specific area in regards to burning fat (but you can with building muscle)... for example, if I do tricep extensions all day, it's not going to only target the fat on the back of my arms.  Instead, your body loses fat proportionately to how it was originally placed on your body.  Typically, the last place you gain fat is the first place you'll lose it.  Or, in accordance to accounting standards, the LIFO method =)
However, in the case of Jade, I recommend a nice exercise routine, with cardio, leg and ab exercises to burn some fat and build muscle.  This way, as she gains new fat while exercising, her body will tend to distribute the new fat in a more efficient way, as opposed to it all going to her belly. 

I think that is definitely a great idea Vanna. I already exercise quite frequently, but mostly cardio (biking, running once in a while, walking), but I guess my job could count as light weight lifting

I have another question, what would be an ideal weight for someone with a small frame and 5'6? At least the minimum to give hrt plenty of fat to redistribute

Quote from: JadeS on June 12, 2011, 10:13:11 AM
I think that is definitely a great idea Vanna. I already exercise quite frequently, but mostly cardio (biking, running once in a while, walking), but I guess my job could count as light weight lifting

I have another question, what would be an ideal weight for someone with a small frame and 5'6? At least the minimum to give hrt plenty of fat to redistribute

at 5'6... ideally you would want to be around 125 lbs.  You still still appear thin at 125 but you'll definitely have some fat on your body =)  i'm 5'8 and my ideal weight is around 130-133lbs.. yet I can barely maintain 117 lbs =(  I know how frustrating trying to gain weight can be... my whole life they told me I'd gain weight at puberty, then at 20, then 25... and now i'm 26 and it's just as hard to gain as it was 10 years ago. 
Try buying a weight gainer supplement and drinking it inbetween meals, that's the only way I've ever been able to gain weight.  Problem is, you have to maintain it or you'll lose the weight =(

Seriously, I eat so much crap daily trying to gain weight (lots of proteins, carbs, fatty stuff) and always end up losing the few lbs I gain, I think any weight I gain ends up just being water retention or something like that

Quote from: JadeS on June 12, 2011, 11:34:58 AM
Seriously, I eat so much crap daily trying to gain weight (lots of proteins, carbs, fatty stuff) and always end up losing the few lbs I gain, I think any weight I gain ends up just being water retention or something like that

Both you and I have the exact same problem... our body metabolism tends to speed up as we consume more food.  Really the only ways around this is to eat complex carbs (whole grain, fruits, etc...) because they take longer to digest, to eat lots of calories, and to eat healthy fats (Avocados, Grape Seed Oil, Walnut Oil, Olive Oil).  Also, building muscle is the quickest way you will gain weight... people with our body type tend to build muscle in a very fast, lean and efficient way.  We basically have the ideal body type for an athlete or endurance runner.  I suggest trying to utilize your bodies abilities and get in shape...since that's how your body prefers to develop. 
Even though I am tiny, I am very shapely because I have exercised and maintained such a healthy diet for so long.  My doctor says that aside from my weight issue, I'm one of the healthiest patients she's ever seen in regards to my bloodwork, cholesterol and such.  Our bodies just tend to build muscle instead of retaining fat... it's not such a bad thing, it definitely prolongs the longevity of our youthful appearance.  And, when you're 40 you will still have the body of a 25 year old.  SO, in the long run this isn't such a bad thing...
Trust me, you can build muscle and still look feminine.  My arms may look big when I flex them, but in all actuality they are only 11" flexed.. if you saw me standing beside somebody else, you would realize just how small I actually am.  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F153sgfn.jpg&hash=83d7598e817e86fc4873d1790cece02b717cc809)