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Kia Ora,

::) A simple enough question, but the answer/s could be anything but simple...  :icon_yikes:

::) Now to make things a little more interesting,  :icon_suspicious: .... "non" atheists [that is theists-agnostics ] are also welcome to express their opinions...  ::)

PLEASE NOTE !
Only "mentally mature" people [grown ups] are allowed to comment...This should help to prevent any "childish" behaviour that as a habit of arising in some threads...

::) Remember many "religious" people also  believe "Faith should be "tempered" by reason!" just thought I'd throw this into the mix...  ;)

Metta Zenda :)

Only what can be demonstrated through the scientific method. Well, and of course a system of ethics. :)

I've often tried to wrap my head around the notion of there being no afterlife and it's difficult. I mean sure I've been anesthetized and it should be easy to imagine it being like that but I woke up so something came next.... I can't imagine there not being a "something next".

Dàwkbua
Atheist in the godless sense but agnostic about spirituality :)

Quote from: Dàwkbua on June 10, 2011, 07:09:30 PM
Only what can be demonstrated through the scientific method. Well, and of course a system of ethics. :)

I've often tried to wrap my head around the notion of there being no afterlife and it's difficult. I mean sure I've been anesthetized and it should be easy to imagine it being like that but I woke up so something came next.... I can't imagine there not being a "something next".

Dàwkbua
Atheist in the godless sense but agnostic about spirituality :)

Kia Ora Dawkbua,

::) Nice one I like that...BTW is the writing beneath your avatar "Thai", it looks like it's a southeast Asian language...

Metta Zenda :)

Speaking personally, I don't believe the existence of something beyond death is reliant on there being a God. I believe in the former, but not the latter.

I believe that it's pretty darned amazing how things manage to exist and live without a higher being orchestrating everything.  The mechanics of the universe and their complexity add more than enough wonder to my life.

I believe that most 'atheists' are in fact 'agnostics'.

Kia Ora,

::) And  "Some atheists also criticise the use of the term agnosticism as functionally indistinguishable from atheism!" Now that's interesting....  ::)

Metta Zenda :)

I was subjected to 12 years of highly religious schooling, and so I've got a pretty bright line definition between those two terms.  Most of the people I've met who are atheist in the sense that they don't believe in any god as ever described by humans are highly educated people in the sciences, arts and liberal arts, and though they don't ascribe to that notion, they do not dispute the idea that there are no doubt forces well beyond our understanding - and perhaps forever beyond our knowing - existing in a vast universe that we are just beginning to comprehend the extent of .  They are not egoists.  They are just not too much for bronze age stories being taken as eternal truth.

Kia Ora,

::) So this would make them "agnostic-atheists" or if you like "open minded atheism" open minded as in there more to life that meets the eye... Which is what I personally subscribe to...

However, I don't subscribe to the possibility of extra terrestrial intelligent life forms...  ::) I know my mind too well for any notions of this kind to remain a permanent fixture...It just can not accommodate such ridiculous ideas...

::) Super-natural energies yes, out of this universe no...In other words, I put aliens in the same basket as gods, fairies, angels, unicorns and other supernatural beings = The out basket... I'm no basket case...  ;) ;D

But then that's just "my" mind at work, how others choose to see things is how others see things...And they have every right to do so...

People can view my personal beliefs as somewhat ridiculous, and I don't "mind" one bit, in fact I'd still respect the person if they do...I know what I know and am comfortable with this knowledge... that is "knowledge" that comes from actual experience...

Well I guess that's "me" in a "nut"shell  ;)   

Metta Zenda :)   

Quote from: Zenda on June 10, 2011, 10:51:41 PMAnd  "Some atheists also criticise the use of the term agnosticism as functionally indistinguishable from atheism!"

Ludicrous.  Atheism is the lack of belief in gods.  Agnosticism is the lack of proper knowledge to form a conclusion either way.

I never even implied aliens, which would not necessarily be god like, I said forces well beyond our understanding.  That such forces would have cause, or purpose, or senescence or simply exist as forces themselves, who knows?

I would be skeptical of anyone who says "There is no god."  To me the evidence is greatly against the presence of a higher being, but it cannot be completely disproven.  I guess I would fall under "agnostic atheist."  I believe that there is no god, but I accept the possibility that my belief may be wrong.

Kia Ora,

::) "In ancient Greece, the word for "god" was "theos". Obviously, if "theos" meant god, then there would need to be a word that meant the opposite. By putting "a" in front of "theos" the word "atheos" was formed, which means "no god". In Greek "a" can also mean "without", although I think in this case "no" makes more sense. Taken this way a person that says, "no god(s)", is making a denial of the existence of god(s). Any confusion about whether it meant "without belief in god(s)", as modern atheists claim, would not have been a consideration at this point in time. It was simply a denial of god(s) existence.
These two words, "theos" and "atheos" are the root words from where we get "theism" and "atheism": "ism" means; "Greek -ismos; orig. suffix of action or of state, forming nouns from verbs.!"

So you could very well be right VeryG,  after all in ancient Greek language "a" =without and "gnosis" =knowledge :)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

"However, I don't subscribe to the possibility of extra terrestrial intelligent life forms...   I know my mind too well for any notions of this kind to remain a permanent fixture...It just can not accommodate such ridiculous ideas!"

The paragraph directly above was not an  "accusation" aimed at your scientific friends Tekla,  I was just following on with where I stand regarding my personal beliefs...

But I can see how it could be misread, if one thinks it's all meant to relate to what they have said...

Metta Zenda :)   

In the book 2001, Bowman, before he vanishes, says: "The thing's hollow—it goes on forever—and—oh my God—it's full of stars!"  People who have been watching the stuff tranmitted from Hubble and Chandra over the last 10+ years has seen the size of the universe increase to fantastic dimensions.

We now know that our galaxy, the Milky Way, has 200 to 400 billion stars (give or take).

The most current estimates guess that there are 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Universe, each of which has hundreds of billions of stars. A recent German supercomputer simulation put that number even higher: 500 billion. In other words, there could be a galaxy out there for every star in the Milky Way.

The notion that we are alone in the universe is highly doubtful.  But the distances make any contact seem doubtful too, as least in our current understanding of time/space.

I think the fact that people care so much whether there's "anyone out there" (whether we're talking about gods or aliens or "other") is way more interesting than whether there's "anyone out there" :).

I don't have a problem believing there are beings of a different order to us in the same way that we're bigger than ants and amoebae and so on - but if such beings exist and any of them think they "made everything", I think they're deluding themselves.

In the end, this is why I'd rather call myself a non-theist than an atheist - because I think it really doesn't matter enough, it's a distraction from the amazingness of even just the observable beautiful complexity of the universe(s), never mind what we can't even see beyond that. My personal belief is that theism is a manifestation of longing for parents to be still running the show once we've grown up. And I hope I'm right, but that's because I had bad parents! Either way, as a friend of mine said once, "For all practical purposes, 'all sentient beings' is whoever you're with at the time" so whether we believe in deities or not is completely irrelevant to whether we live in a way that adds happiness or suffering to the world we inhabit. Or so I choose to believe.

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/galactic/galactic.jpg (http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/galactic/galactic.jpg)

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/stephq/stephq.jpg (http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/stephq/stephq.jpg)

Quote from: tekla on June 11, 2011, 01:54:29 AM
http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/galactic/galactic.jpg (http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/galactic/galactic.jpg)

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/stephq/stephq.jpg (http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/stephq/stephq.jpg)

Kia Ora Tekla,

::) Thanks for that... Those photos just gave me a "flashback" from my acid days  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

They took me back to my days as a god... good times... :).

Quote from: tekla on June 11, 2011, 01:22:36 AM
In the book 2001, Bowman, before he vanishes, says: "The thing's hollow—it goes on forever—and—oh my God—it's full of stars!"  People who have been watching the stuff tranmitted from Hubble and Chandra over the last 10+ years has seen the size of the universe increase to fantastic dimensions.

We now know that our galaxy, the Milky Way, has 200 to 400 billion stars (give or take).

The most current estimates guess that there are 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Universe, each of which has hundreds of billions of stars. A recent German supercomputer simulation put that number even higher: 500 billion. In other words, there could be a galaxy out there for every star in the Milky Way.

The notion that we are alone in the universe is highly doubtful.  But the distances make any contact seem doubtful too, as least in our current understanding of time/space.

Kia Ora Tekla,
 
::) It could all be just an illusion! Just like my acid trip... all in the mind  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on June 11, 2011, 02:48:49 AM
Kia Ora Tekla,
 
::) It could all be just an illusion! Just like my acid trip... all in the mind  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

...like the gods :).

Quote from: Padma on June 11, 2011, 02:53:30 AM
...like the gods :).

Kia Ora Padma,

::) True...Gods of all descriptions can occupy ones mind, if the right seeds are planted and nurtured ! 

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on June 11, 2011, 03:05:43 AM
Kia Ora Padma,

::) True...Gods of all descriptions can occupy ones mind, if the right seeds are planted and nurtured ! 

Metta Zenda :)

...or if they're all just illusions - part of our collective acid trip, because we'd rather make up pretty colours and miss the real ones? ;D

Though there are many different forms of atheism maybe....in one general word... "tangibility". I view both being at the opposite scale of each other, one saying yes and one saying no.. when really neither has any proof to back up their opinions as they're both based on belief. Atheists need tangibility to accept fact where theists can accept something with no solid evidence. I don't think it's about who's right and who's wrong but more to do with the individual and what that one person needs in order to make themselves content. It's when they try to objectify it that things become problematic. Just accept each others views and opinions and things will be fine!

People of faith have the concept of 'revelation' where information is revealed to a person (either by God, or achievement of oneness or whatever). I think a key part of my atheism is to deny that knowledge can be achieved in this way, that it has to be worked for, gained and experienced. However, revelation does make complete sense historically, as the desire for knowledge seems an unquenchable human 'thing' and the means to experiment that more limited in the past. I can certainly see the attraction, it is very difficult to deny the power of the God story, or a desire for revelation itself.

Quote from: Pica Pica on June 11, 2011, 04:25:39 AM
People of faith have the concept of 'revelation' where information is revealed to a person (either by God, or achievement of oneness or whatever). I think a key part of my atheism is to deny that knowledge can be achieved in this way, that it has to be worked for, gained and experienced.

This seems to be a common theme.  "Faith-based" spiritual doctrines always seem to propose the ability to gain knowledge without evidence or observation, whereas atheists tend to use (or claim to use) scientific methods where ideas like revelation or intuition play a very minor role.

One of the reasons religious arguments are often a waste of time is because theists and atheists cannot even agree on what constitutes sound knowledge.  If one cannot even agree on what constitutes knowledge, it is going to be very difficult to engage any meaningful discussion about the particulars of what one claims to know.

I tend to agree that evidence and data are much more useful than intuition or revelation, with a small possibility that intuition and revelation have absolutely no use at all.

It's too collective for that, far too many people also see it.

To be an Atheist you first have to start with your feet firmly planted on Terra Firma.  Then you have to firmly believe in facts alone.  If the facts don't prove it exists, then it doesn't exist.  End of story.

It could be argued the belief in God was borne out of ignorance.  Those things humans couldn't understand were explained away by attributing them to a higher power, and "God" was born.  And from that all forms of religious and spiritual beliefs were created.  And they all depended on faith, with facts having little or no place in that belief.  And they were carried on from generation to generation.

As I see it, Atheism requires that you don't use faith but rather simply accept, "Right now, the facts say..." and that's what you believe.  Also it would seem Atheists don't fear death as being "the end" like faith based believers do.

I don't agree that atheists don't have faith - "atheist" just means they don't believe in a god, there's plenty of scope for faith in other things. To me faith is just what you have when you believe in something but aren't yet certain - i.e. it's what comes before knowledge. So I have very strong faith in the absence of anyone/anything that "created" the universe (because I'm pretty damned sure the universe(s) don't tick that way) - but I don't need to be certain in order to get on with life.

I once took a nice young Mormon to task over his street questionnaire, which amongst other things asked me: "Do you consider yourself spiritual, OR do you consider yourself an atheist?" as if it had to be one or the other. The cheek! :)

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 11, 2011, 10:08:18 AMTo be an Atheist you first have to start with your feet firmly planted on Terra Firma.  Then you have to firmly believe in facts alone.  If the facts don't prove it exists, then it doesn't exist.  End of story.

Not end of story, I'm afraid.  The word "atheist" implies only a lack of belief in gods.  It does not imply why one does not believe in gods.  An atheist could have his head up in the clouds as much as a spiritualist, but still not believe in any gods.

I'm afraid that practicing science and logic is not a requirement to be an atheist.

QuoteIt could be argued the belief in God was borne out of ignorance.

Certainly most of what humanity has believed was born out of ignorance.  If I had no knowledge of physics and I walked outside, I would come to the conclusion that being outside causes sunburn.  I would have no way of knowing that it is actually exposure to solar radiation which causes sunburn, or furthermore that the sun itself is very far away.  I would only know that when I go outside I get burned, and when I stay inside I am fine.  The LOGICAL conclusion is that being outside causes sunburn.  Until I gain more data (such as sitting under a tree, or going outside on a cloudy day) I have no way of knowing that my belief is actually false.

I view the origins of most religions as probably developing along these same lines.  At one point in time (admittedly a very long time ago) religion probably was the best explanation we had for how the universe worked.  Someone noticed a correlation between something and proposed a theory of religion which (at the time) seemed reasonable.

As we made more observations and gained even better theories, the older ideas became less and less reasonable, until they became completely nonsensical in the presence of modern science.  But as we have seen, logic and reason often have little to do with why people believe what they believe.  People react to emotion much more strongly than they do to reason.  If you tell someone there is a big invisible man there to protect them, it makes them feel safe.  If you tell them that they are just on a floating rock in space and that their life could be ended any minute by a tornado or an earthquake.... well, nobody really wants to hear that.

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 11, 2011, 10:37:55 AM
People using the word "belief" in different ways is causing some odd conversations in this thread.

Belief (1) - An absolute truth (100% certainty). When a theist says "I believe in god," they generally mean "god exists" not "I think god might exist."

Belief (2) - Something less than an absolute (sub-100% certainty). Often in opposition to a fact. As Padma describes her belief in no creator. Uncertain, but believing.

Oddly enough, I have none of the first and see, well, everything as a component of the second. Such a strange little word is "belief."

Indeedy - personally, I consider belief in any absolutes to be inherently suspicious. It has a smell of desperation about it. On the other hand, doubt (in the positive sense of "creative uncertainty") smells pretty healthy to me. I just have to make sure the main person I'm sniffing is me, since that's where it can do the most good.

It could be argued the belief in God was borne out of ignorance.  Those things humans couldn't understand were explained away by attributing them to a higher power, and "God" was born.

Actually, far from ignorance it's evidence of the highest powers of thinking.  It's creative to say the least!  Hell, all science begins as an attempt to, if not find god, at least try to understand god's creation.

All of the stories, the tales, the gospels, epistles, Zen Koans, books, art, music, architecture, and theater that's come from that effort to explain, visualize and celebrate what we don't know pretty much represents the high point of our creative talents.  From Where Sheep May Safely Graze by Bach to Coltrane's A Love Supreme, from The Sistine Chapel^* to Piss Christ it's shaped everything we know in Western Art (though it has done the same in all arts, everywhere).  It's Genesis, Exodus and Job, it's the Psalms, the Gospel of John and the Revelation of St. John, the Tao, the Quran, the The Bhagavad Gītā, Greek and Roman (and just about every other culture) Mythology, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, the entire mess of Egyptian funerary traditions and beliefs and architectural including building the pyramids.  (It's also Mayan temples and human sacrifice, but we'll skip that, though highly creative that was too.)

The writing alone represents some of the best writing that's ever been done: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.  Man, I'm hooked, I'm going to keep on reading.  That exactly what they teach in 'great writers school' - start with something so compelling that the reader has to keep on going.

But here's the funny thing, at the end of the day, the god image aside, what all those texts - and all the ones I didn't mention too - say and are about the same thing, and it's not god.  It's this:
'Indeed, We sent Our messengers with evident truth, and We sent down with them the Book and the balance (of right and wrong), so that people might behave with each other with justice.'
(al-Hadid 57: 25)

Though I prefer the version from the Gospel of Thomas (6) where Jesus simply says: and don't do what you hate.  You know, that person you can't stand?  Don't be that guy or girl.  It's the Golden Rule, the principle of reciprocity, it's what Jesus finally said, in total desperation of how stupid everyone was being, when he wiped away all those other laws (and there was a big huge dogpile of them, books and books) and asked if we could possibly just follow one - JUST ONE - simple rule?  It's this:  "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31, KJV).

Every religion, every spiritual system says that.  It's the one supreme thing they ALL agree upon.^**  It's proven to be a perfectly obtainable deal.  I've been a part of many communities at times in my life that were places where people lived with each other like that.  It's pretty nice.  Low stress for sure. 

Now I believe (in terms of sense one: Belief (1) - An absolute truth (100% certainty) that when people let that principal guide them, with or without a god, life is better for everyone in just about every way.  As the Tao would have it, life gets done.  I've experienced, and continue to experience that.  I believe (sense two:Belief (2) - Something less than an absolute (sub-100% certainty). Often in opposition to a fact.) that it is possible to do on a large scale, though facts, like 'history' for one set, tends to lower the odds - or at least the optimism.

Black Elk said that"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves.  All is really One."  And all are one, and one is all, as Zep sez.  That huge universe we are apart of, that is us, as we are it: "Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics. You are all stardust. You couldn't be here if stars hadn't exploded."  (Lawrence Krauss).  We're only at the thin beginning of understanding, but what we are learning is that it's all a little bit more than previously envisioned.  We're standing on the edge of time.  It's going to take a while for our eyes to adjust.



* - Click and drag mouse, etc.
http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html (http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html)

** - here is a list of 21 different faiths/systems saying the exact same thing in only slightly different language:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc3.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc3.htm)

interesting read so far, for me being an atheist is a bit different than some people it seems, while I don't believe in god, I do believe there are things that science cannot explain in it's current form, that doesn't mean I think any god or other spirituality exists, merely that for me science isn't a replacement for religion, because it is never going to be complete.

Also, science isn't perfect either, since the people performing the scientific method to understand things cannot be perfectly objective, so in a sense science is based on a sense of trust in my view. Do I trust the scientists are following methods impartially, and objectively or not? That question determines their validity to me.

So what fills in the gap between science that is hard to trust (after all while most sceintists say global warming exists, others claim it doesn't, both claim evidence)? For me it is emotion, the same as the reasons I gave up on believing in god in the first place, as self serving as it sounds, if I am not convinced by the science of something I just believe whatever feels right. "God" feels wrong, so I don't believe in god. If there were some scientists cliaming evidence of god, I still wouldn't trust them enough to believe them.

I actually like to view my thoughts as circular logic at it's finest :P

I assert that we need to stop worrying what's "out there" and focus on what's "right here."

Kia Ora,

Oooowooo I just couldn't resist this little story on faith and belief...

To protect the identity of the original story teller [That is, I forgot where I originally read it] I've slightly changed it by replacing one act with another...

"There was once a snake charmer, who was so good that he could charm many deadly poisonous snakes in one go.
Hundreds of people would watch him perform his amazing feat from behind a safety barrier. He would then get his assistant to walk amongst the deadly but docile snakes he had charmed. Everybody was amazed and after he had finished and had put the snakes back into their baskets, they gave him a thunderous applause... He asked them whether they "believed" that he could do it again. The crowd said, "Yes, we "believe" that you can!" After a while he asked the crowd, "Now, who wants to volunteer to be my assistant this time?" With that the crowd became
silent!"

There is a difference between Belief and Faith. We can believe what we see. In the above story, the crowd believed in the snake charmer's ability to charm poisonous snakes because they saw him perform the feat. But when he asked them "Who wants to walk amongst the charmed snakes?" everyone was silent. You see, the crowd had Belief but they did not have Faith. This story clearly illustrates the difference between belief and having faith!"


Or how about this on Science, spirituality, faith, determination and doubt....

"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual and or scientific walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual/scientific journey. This act is real spiritual/scientific practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place!"

I guess by just "being" who we are, "faith" along with "belief" does have a role to play in our lives...And how much of a role would depend upon the individual...

Have "faith" in your ability to achieve your goals folks ! I have "faith" in you !

Happy Mindfulness :)

Metta Zenda :)

Atheists believe annoying believers  >:-)

Kate D

I'm glad Tekla mentioned the huge impact faith has had on culture. I have a lot of time for religion, when intelligently practiced, can spur on some of the greatest human achievements.

But I find that there are more awkward questions to accept a world with God than without.

The end idea may yet prove correct, but the stories to date are lacking.

"Atheism" isn't really a positive set of propositions, but rather a negative descriptor: to be an atheist is to not believe in gods. Some do not believe in gods, and identify as atheist, because they hold scientific "objectivity" above intangible claims. Others do not subscribe to theistic beliefs simply because they feel no need, do not want to, or find teachings and practices to not address their needs, experiences, or values. Sometimes both, and I'm sure there are other reasons as well. Atheists hold varying beliefs and value systems, and there are no positive propositions inherent in the label. Western atheism, however, is most commonly associated with faith in science and a secular ethics system, denying not only spiritual beings but also anything non-material. But some atheists still hold faith in the supernatural, be it forces or an afterlife, what have you.

Personally, as an atheist, I acknowledge that accepting my senses/consciousness as an accurate way to experience something that is real and objective outside of myself takes faith. That is one of the first presuppositions everyone must make to function: is everything I experience real? And if so, are my perceptions of it at all related to the actual reality of it? There are infinite answers and non-answers that can be incorporated into a coherant or incoherant worldview. My faith in my perceptions as a more or less accurate experience of a world that does exist outside of myself is where my faith ends. Even that is up to questioning, but it doesn't get very far in the practical world. Interesting, but not very helpful in the cultivation of the self.

Quote from: kate durcal on June 11, 2011, 07:48:55 PM
Atheists believe annoying believers  >:-)

Kate D

Kia Ora,

::) God works in mysterious ways Kate  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Shalom,

In a serious note, an atheist is: "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."


    "The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell." [Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes,"  1943] 

Kate D

That's an interesting quote. I recently had to tell a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses that I don't believe in a creator god, but that if I did believe in their creator god, I'd feel honour bound to oppose him in any way possible, because from what I've read about him and his behaviour, he's a dangerous and irresponsible psychopath drunk with power (eternal punishment for not believing in him? Exhibit A). Not that in this respect, he's any different from any other creator gods/goddesses that have been come up with in different cultures.

Quote from: Padma on June 12, 2011, 08:46:11 AM
That's an interesting quote.

Yeah, the only defense against that argument is Free Will, which has its own problems.  Without the Free Will argument, it is completely illogical that a perfect being would make an imperfect creation.  That would be like me making a building on a faulty foundation when I have all the knowledge necessary to make a solid foundation before I started construction.  There's no reason to believe that God (being the perfect architect) would intentionally design a building that He knew would collapse.  But that's exactly what believers are saying that He did.

There is just no reason to believe that a perfect being would EVER create an imperfect world for any reason.  The only thing which even comes close to explaining it is Free Will.  But really, Free Will is an extremely weak argument.  Consider for example, God could have put all the peace-loving people on one world, and all the violent people on another.  They would still be free to act as they choose.  They wouldn't be in the same place to experience each other's choices, but they would still be completely free to do as they wish.

Kia Ora,

::) When it comes down to the nitty gritty of things, as an agnostic atheists "I" believe in live and let live and that a god does "exist" but "only" chooses to dwell within the minds of  theists...And if this god "of the mind" brings one happiness and fulfilment, then it is a worthy and benevolent god...

But if it turns into a rogue god, then it should be euthanised in the most humane way possible, that is dissolved by a good dose of  "reason" –logical thought !

::) Which BTW is on special, only $9.99 at the not for profit [prophet] friendly atheist pharmacy nearest you !  ;) ;D    HURRY FOR THIS IS A LIMITED OFFER !

Happy mindfulness :)

Metta Zenda :)

Shalom Zenda,

Even polytheists ... were in fact tolerated, as Islamic rule spread to most of India. Only the total unbeliever—the agnostic or atheist—was beyond the pale of tolerance ... —Bernard Lewis, Islam in History, 1993

Watch out  >:-)

Kate D

This is great and beautiful and clear and rhymes...but be aware it is a tad sweary.

Tim Minchin's Storm the Animated Movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U#ws)

I'm an agnostic atheist. I have no belief in god(s) but I accept that I don't know or that it's unknowable either way. The only thing making an atheist an atheist is their lack of belief in god(s). We have no collective beliefs.

I'm a humanist, I reject supernatural explanations and instead accept answers that science can back up. Science doesn't know everything, I believe there is a lot more to discover about ourselves and the rest of the word. "Science knows it doesn't know everything; otherwise, it'd stop." Dara Ó Briain

I am Athiest by a very dictionary-like definition. I don't believe in G*d or a higher power with influence over what is happening on Earth. I have found that most Athiests are actually irreligious entirely and use Athiesm as a label when it really could be used more as a very large umbrella term. A-without Thiest-God. There are plenty of faiths that do not involve a god or higher power at all, so they could also be considered Athiest. Athieism is not always irreligious. This is not to say I am not a spiritual person, I just do not believe in a higher power.

I think Atheists believe in "a better world."

To explain, Atheists do not believe in any sort of supernatural, higher, or unseen power that governs actions, afterlives, personalities, souls, or other things. They also do not believe that we have our own souls and that frankly, every thought we have, every brain process we have, and every action on earth is based on the laws of physics. Atheists believe that humanity is no different from the animals we all study; in a way, Atheists tend to study other human beings just like human beings study chimps. There's just no supernatural concepts involved; no one would study a chimp and say "Well, that Chimp likes bananas 'cuz God made it that way." or "That monkey's being sinful because it's touching another male monkey." Atheists also do not try to force religious concepts onto factual and proven properties of physics and psychology just because of a lack of understanding of it; an Atheist will simply either say "Oh, I know that because I saw it in a study." or "I don't know anything about that."

However, because people tend to require a belief in something, largely because of upbringing, Atheists tend to be the ones who put their ambitions and drive to real-world solutions and problems; instead of praying for kids in Africa, an Atheist may be the one who puts all the effort to actually raise charity money instead. Or they may take a very critical view and say "Well, the truth is that I have to care about myself before I help anyone else." Atheistic views, like religious views, can be self-centered or can be very optimistic. Generally, views and motivations of any sort come from personal experience and preference, rather than the direct following of an ideology.

One of the best things on the topic I've ever read.

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy — you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.



Penn Jillette is the taller, louder half of the magic and comedy act Penn and Teller. He is a research fellow at the Cato Institute and has lectured at Oxford and MIT. Penn has co-authored three best-selling books and is executive producer of the documentary film, "The Aristocrats."

This is part of the This I Believe Project at NPR.
http://thisibelieve.org/essay/34/ (http://thisibelieve.org/essay/34/)

Quote from: Yakshini on June 28, 2011, 09:26:03 PMI have found that most Athiests are actually irreligious entirely and use Athiesm as a label when it really could be used more as a very large umbrella term. A-without Thiest-God.

Everyone is an atheist.  There are thousands of gods out there, but most people only believe in one or less.  Most people are atheists in respect to the vast majority of gods which have been proposed.  Theists are only theists in respect to one or a small group of gods.

Kia Ora,

::) After reading through all the comments...............

::) What do atheist "believe" in ?  =In general, it would seem the same things theists believe in, but "without" the god element!

::) Now why didn't "I" come up with this in the first place???

Metta Zenda :) 

Dear Zenda,

I a sorry but I beg to disagree, atheist do not bleive in G-d, theist belive in G-d. The whole conveptual and philosophical approach of both groups is diametrically opposed.

Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on June 29, 2011, 06:39:57 PM
Dear Zenda,

I a sorry but I beg to disagree, atheist do not bleive in G-d, theist belive in G-d. The whole conveptual and philosophical approach of both groups is diametrically opposed.

Kate D

Kia Ora Kate,

::) I was referring to things like the welfare of ones family, education, the basic rights from wrongs, etc, based upon ones feelings/conscience...There are many liberal theists out there[people who "believe" in a god of some kind] whose "faith is "tempered" by reason" and they want what humanistic atheism wants, that is they "believe" in the same things except they also have a "belief" in a personal god...

I work with theists, agnostics and possibly some  "in the closet" atheists too...We all work together for the same cause, to help those less fortunate...That is we "believe" in the same thing...

However, some atheists come to their "no god" conclusion through intellect, and it would seem the bible's contradictory nature is one of atheism's most powerful recruitment tools, properly read it's one of the most potent repellents of organised religion ever conceived...

But I should add, this is because "man" had a hand in selecting and putting these gospels together...


Metta Zenda :)

One thing I can't help but think about with reading some of these posts, is about theists attributing things to god.  Earlier in the thread theists were called out because they feel genuine good notions are from god setting up things that way instead of them being genuinely good.  Do you suppose that it's possible that the nature of a theist's thinking for this could be that they believe in goodness of people but for some reason deliberately demand a dettachment?  For example, that perhaps such a perfect trait should be involved with god so that it's not dilluted by a bad general nature of people?  Or that by it being from a god, it's so stable and reliable that it is a feature that can never be tarnished in any way?  ---In other words, some variation of that a theist wants to ensure there's a kind of preserving of goodness in a way that can't be twisted or anything.

To draw back into the topic, where does an atheist's feelings fall in all of this thought?  Concerning the purity of goodness, goodness and tainting, and the fact that theists probably are just trying to detach oneself from it in defense of it?  ---And ultimately in part of this, I'm curiously testing at that Kate, like many atheists and theists, feel that they're opposed like that.  Hope that the prodding isn't offensive to you, Kate. x3

One thing clear in this thread is that the different people who consider themselves atheist mean a whole range of different things by the term. So in general, any question that asks "what do atheists think about xyz?" can only be answered by saying "well, I think this, because atheism means this to me." We can't speak for other atheists (unless we've asked them first and are quoting them :)).

Well that's true enough for lots of religions also.  Yes, there fanatical Christians, Muslims and Jews and Hindus, but on the other hand, most are not fanatics and terrorists.

Goodness comes from me.
Kindness comes from me.
Thoughtfulness comes from me.
Love comes from me.
Judgment comes from me.
Meanness comes from me.
Hatred comes from me.

No matter what I think, say or do, it all comes from me and it originates in the thoughts in my brain.  There is no devil making me do bad things, no god making me do good things.  How I see the world, how I respond to the world, all starts and ends in the six inch space between my ears, without any outside influence.

Call that whatever you will, I call it reality.