Well, if you read the last thread I created it was to inform you all that D and I are getting married! We're doing this next year as he's looking for a job and we need to save up some money.
So, what I'm wondering is this... He's fully transitioned, aside from contemplating increasing his T, but we're getting married, I haven't seen his birth certificate, Social Security Card, or License, but he tells me they all have his name on them and that they say he's a male, and I believe him. In the state we plan on getting married you just need your License and Social Security cards to get a marriage license, no blood tests or physical exams. Since both of those things say he's a male, should we have any problem what so ever getting a marriage license and having a legal male/female marriage? These are just little things I'm worried about as we start to plan. I know he's male, and he knows it, but would there be any reason for some background crap to pop up when we're applying for a marriage license?
Thanks for any and all help that you guys can throw at me. :)
Not being a lawyer, I can not see anything that should pop up. That said, if they (the morons in charge ) wanted to push it, they could nullify the marriage because of falsifications. Other than that I see no reason for concern. Especially if the area you live in has same sex marrige or civil union.
I live in South Carolina and we're getting married in South Carolina. I don't understand how falsification would come about if the government sees him as male?
Even if they don't ask for it, the birth certificate is the important one.
There are some who have gotten into a heap of trouble over this.
There was a case where somebody got married with a driver's license even though they knew their birth certificate wasn't in order.
If I were in your shoes I'd say, "Hey, honey, can I have a look at your birth certificate?"
Ok, that demonstrates a lack of trust.
Still, the document should be one of which he is proud.
The rules vary from state to state. Even if you can get a marriage license and get married, the state could later choose to not recognize the marriage. I live in Texas. The law is currently undergoing legal test but the current law is that "you are what you were listed as born" - you can't change gender.
I don't know about South Carolina but you may want to check before you get married.
I wish you the best.
Julie
I plan on taking a look at his documentation before we get everything set in stone and what not. I'm just worried, which I think is a natural reaction at this point.
I don't even know where to begin to look and see if they have a "it only counts as the sex you were born" law here like they do in Texas.
http://www.scstatehouse.gov/cgi-bin/query.exe?first=DOC&querytext=Marriage&category=Code&conid=6525671&result_pos=0&keyval=379 (http://www.scstatehouse.gov/cgi-bin/query.exe?first=DOC&querytext=Marriage&category=Code&conid=6525671&result_pos=0&keyval=379) I found that website and I read through it, and as far as I can tell all it says is that only a man and a woman can get married, and all of his paperwork says he's a man, birth certificate, license, social security card, all of it, though I AM going to check it all out. He's been transitioned since he was a teen and what not so he tells me he got it all taken care of.
I know that planning a wedding is stressful, but I didn't even think it would be THIS stressful. Of course in my eyes he's a man and in my head there weren't any issues in marrying the MAN of my dreams. :( I hate that this country can't just let people love who they want to love and have it be "Legal" to do so.
a couple of issues:
1) the issue in Texas is not the manner in which the statute (law) is written but rather the way it has been interpreted in ONE of the fourteen Courts of Appeal and then most recently in ONE County. Judicial interpretations that do not affect the entire State should not be presumed to be 'law.'
1a) the Court in Wharton actually lacked jurisdiction to even entertain the motion. Texas law, dicta in Littleton not withstanding, is clear in that an action to void a marriage cannot be brought after the death of a party to the marriage EXCEPT in a very narrow carve-out of the Probate Code. That carve-out is not applicable to the pending case. Somehow, defense counsel apparently missed that as they chose instead to focus on trying to re-litigate Littleton even as such an effort was to the detriment of the client.
1b) if one wants to look at conflicting language, the Constitutional amendment we got stuck with in Texas did not define marriage as being between a male and a female. It specifically said man and woman. There are significant differences there that can and should have been argued. Ironically, it was the brief in an unrelated case(Naylor) that made me realize that the Constitution (and DOMA at the federal level) arguably do nothing to preclude the transsexual with identification documents in order from marrying someone that would have been of the same birth sex.
2) Clerks don't run background checks. They have to see certain documents consistent with State law. If those documents are offered up by the applicants, then the license is issued. Let's face facts, the social security card only has a name and a number, it does not even show the sex/gender of the cardholder. If the birth certificate or drivers license or other documents that satisfy the statutory requirement are in order, then there is little to worry about.
3) remember that the only reason the Wharton case became an issue was because of some money-grubbing in-laws and ex-wife. Up until that point, it seems that there was NO issue with the marriage (or the previous divorce from an earlier marriage that had been signed off on by the very same judge).
Thank you Ann, that all makes me feel a bit better. I'm certain we're going to be married forever so we don't have to worry about divorce issues and what not, and I'm hoping his mom doesn't do anything drastic to try to hurt me, because that would in-turn hurt her son. We'll see though, I feel better after reading what you wrote and doing some research of my own, I haven't come across anything yet, but I'll keep looking.
If anyone else has any other info or places I should look for info on my own, please feel free to let me know, I like to have all of my bases covered. :)
Well don't hate your country, the country has not yet made any sort of law on it.* Marriage is a state by state issue.
I'm certain we're going to be married forever so we don't have to worry about divorce issues and what not
That what everyone says going into their first marriage.
* - They are in the process of it thank's to the Prop 8 people who made a federal case of it.
Quote from: tekla on June 24, 2011, 08:54:21 AM
Well don't hate your country, the country has not yet made any sort of law on it.* Marriage is a state by state issue.
I'm certain we're going to be married forever so we don't have to worry about divorce issues and what not
That what everyone says going into their first marriage.
* - They are in the process of it thank's to the Prop 8 people who made a federal case of it.
That wasn't helpful. In fact, it was a little bit hurtful. I'm looking for help, not negativity.
It was just saying that you should consult a local lawyer (actually everyone should consult a lawyer before getting married) who knows the laws, and how they are actually applied there. Hating the country was the silly part. Everyday people like you get married in some states. Gay people get married. And the Feds have nothing really to do about it. Hate the State, that's what I say. It's about to be a moot point - though perhaps slower and not without a huge fight in SC - because its going to reach a tipping point when NY legalizes it, and the Cali case is upheld and the stay is lifted. That's 25% of the US population right there, its over at that point.
Quote from: Jessi on June 24, 2011, 10:21:17 AM
That wasn't helpful. In fact, it was a little bit hurtful. I'm looking for help, not negativity.
while tekla can be a little brusque at times, the reality is that discussions of marriage issues in this area of life is simply not something that is always going to be sunshine and roses. The same holds true with the tinted-glasses view that divorce may never occur...
I've known too many people that went to other states that DID permit same-sex marriage for the purpose of getting married. Unfortunately, most did not last...and one of those is currently embroiled in a case in the Texas Supreme Court because the State chose to get involved and claim that Travis County lacked the legal authority to grant the divorce decree.
The fact that you are trying to get information beforehand is absolutely a good thing. However, you also HAVE to consider all eventualities, one of which includes a prospect of divorce.
Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 24, 2011, 11:35:33 AM
while tekla can be a little brusque at times, the reality is that discussions of marriage issues in this area of life is simply not something that is always going to be sunshine and roses. The same holds true with the tinted-glasses view that divorce may never occur...
I've known too many people that went to other states that DID permit same-sex marriage for the purpose of getting married. Unfortunately, most did not last...and one of those is currently embroiled in a case in the Texas Supreme Court because the State chose to get involved and claim that Travis County lacked the legal authority to grant the divorce decree.
The fact that you are trying to get information beforehand is absolutely a good thing. However, you also HAVE to consider all eventualities, one of which includes a prospect of divorce.
I realize that I need to consider all eventualities, and I will in my own way and at my own pace, however Divorce isn't sitting on my shelf right now. I'm not a pessimist, I think ahead with a positive out look. Right now I'm just trying to get through the marriage part of all of this and figure out the marriage laws that will be important.
Unfortunately I don't have the cash to sit down and talk to a lawyer about this stuff so the best I can do is continue to do my research on my own and hope that there are some people on here that can point me in the right direction, which is all I was trying for. So I'll continue to look around the internet, as of right now I can't find anything that would hold us back from getting married in this state, as all his paperwork says he's male and I can't see anyone diving deeper into that.
To go to a state that has same sex marriage would be something we can't do right now and would be totally out of character if I decided to get married in the region where I used to live, which is New England.
So, until same sex marriage is legal in all states I'll keep my fingers crossed that everything works out for us and I'll continue to be positive and keep my head held high and as informed as I can.
(this is US-centric)
Simply put, different States (and, in States like Texas, even different parts of the State) and the Feds all have different and often contradictory requirements for marriage.
There is no state or federal law that defines male or female. There are administrative rules for the State DMV and Social Security, for example, but those rules are not binding outside of the agency for which they are for - and they can be changed at a whim of the government.
So, whether you are in a legal opposite-sex marriage is entirely up to the courts. Courts have decided that the birth certificates matter, the surgery matters (I do not know of any cases where a post-op male has had a court decision for or against relating to marriage - all the decisions I know about are MTF), the DNA matters, or the original birth certificate (even if an error was corrected) is what matters. Crossing from one jurisdiction to another changes the rules. The Feds could have different rules than the states (I know of no federal case that challenged a marriage yet - just state cases).
Generally, if all legal documents agree and if the person has had surgery, post-op females are generally recognized as being legally able to marry a cis-male, with a handful of states dissenting. But in all these cases, they are one court decision away from losing their married status. Married couples where someone transitioned, sadly, have no security in the US. It's even more confusing for a post-op male, as there just haven't been many cases.
Finally, even if your marriage is legal where you have it, that doesn't mean another state (such as your home state) will recognize it. Each state is different, and, thanks to DOMA, they don't have to respect each other's marriage licenses.
One more thing: That the state accepts a driver's license doesn't mean that they accept the sex on the driver's license for the purpose of marriage. That they issue a marriage license or certificate based on the driver's license (or any other document) also doesn't mean the marriage is legal. It's a sad state.
I agree with others that suggest an attorney. And you should find a way to see his birth certificate, not out of lack of trust, but out of realization that the wrong letter on it will mean you have to take a lot more legal protections in a lot more places.
I know "nobody will likely question it, so it won't matter." But you will find yourself guilty of tax fraud, being unable to be with your spouse if your spouse is dying, and tons of other bad things if someone does decide to challenge it and you lose. So unless you're marrying someone who never pissed *anyone* off, I'd do my best to cover my bases.
That said, I had no problem marrying my wife. I'm willing to go to jail for my love, and accept whatever other consequences, should someone challenge it - but they will get a fight from me, as I won't go quietly. And I'm looking forward to the day when we can get past trying to figure out who is male and who is female so we can make sure the gays don't marry...unfortunately even straight post-op people are caught in that cross-fire. But if you want legal security, a marriage with a transitioned partner, sadly, isn't it right now. I'd listen to your heart instead.
Quote from: Slanan on June 24, 2011, 11:36:08 PM
(this is US-centric)
Simply put, different States (and, in States like Texas, even different parts of the State) and the Feds all have different and often contradictory requirements for marriage.
There is no state or federal law that defines male or female. There are administrative rules for the State DMV and Social Security, for example, but those rules are not binding outside of the agency for which they are for - and they can be changed at a whim of the government.
So, whether you are in a legal opposite-sex marriage is entirely up to the courts. Courts have decided that the birth certificates matter, the surgery matters (I do not know of any cases where a post-op male has had a court decision for or against relating to marriage - all the decisions I know about are MTF), the DNA matters, or the original birth certificate (even if an error was corrected) is what matters. Crossing from one jurisdiction to another changes the rules. The Feds could have different rules than the states (I know of no federal case that challenged a marriage yet - just state cases).
Generally, if all legal documents agree and if the person has had surgery, post-op females are generally recognized as being legally able to marry a cis-male, with a handful of states dissenting. But in all these cases, they are one court decision away from losing their married status. Married couples where someone transitioned, sadly, have no security in the US. It's even more confusing for a post-op male, as there just haven't been many cases.
Finally, even if your marriage is legal where you have it, that doesn't mean another state (such as your home state) will recognize it. Each state is different, and, thanks to DOMA, they don't have to respect each other's marriage licenses.
One more thing: That the state accepts a driver's license doesn't mean that they accept the sex on the driver's license for the purpose of marriage. That they issue a marriage license or certificate based on the driver's license (or any other document) also doesn't mean the marriage is legal. It's a sad state.
I agree with others that suggest an attorney. And you should find a way to see his birth certificate, not out of lack of trust, but out of realization that the wrong letter on it will mean you have to take a lot more legal protections in a lot more places.
I know "nobody will likely question it, so it won't matter." But you will find yourself guilty of tax fraud, being unable to be with your spouse if your spouse is dying, and tons of other bad things if someone does decide to challenge it and you lose. So unless you're marrying someone who never pissed *anyone* off, I'd do my best to cover my bases.
That said, I had no problem marrying my wife. I'm willing to go to jail for my love, and accept whatever other consequences, should someone challenge it - but they will get a fight from me, as I won't go quietly. And I'm looking forward to the day when we can get past trying to figure out who is male and who is female so we can make sure the gays don't marry...unfortunately even straight post-op people are caught in that cross-fire. But if you want legal security, a marriage with a transitioned partner, sadly, isn't it right now. I'd listen to your heart instead.
I realize that we should sit down with an attorney, but as we're paying for the majority of our wedding, and he's in the middle of looking for a real job now that he's done with college, we just don't have the extra money right now to find an attorney that would sit down and talk to us.I would LOVE to be able to do that and would LOVE to be able to know for sure that we're going to be okay, but that just isn't going to happen, not any time soon anyway.
I love my fiance' and I plan to go with my heart on this one and just marry him and see what happens. Like you said all the research I've done has come up with MTF transitioned cases and nothing with FTM, and even then I haven't found a TON. I plan on taking a look at his birth certificate and everything else that I need to. We already discussed it and he said I could look at all of it. He knows how stressed out I am about all of this. I'm going insane, especially since I don't have anyone that I can really talk to around me, so I'm trying the best I can to post on this site regularly and trying to get as much information that I can without losing my mind
I am so in love with him and I haven't got a clue as to what I would do if I lost him. My whole body aches at the idea of not being able to marry him and live our lives together the way they were meant to be lived.
While civil is different from criminal (my area of involvement), I cannot stress how often I have seen people pay a lot more on the back end than they would have if they would have just bought an hour or so of time from competent counsel. And while I understand that finances might be tight, would you rather spend a few hundred dollars now or potentially several thousand down the road?
Why not call around to a few civil attorneys, and see if any of them offer free consultations? I know that you are stressed, and a little peace of mind from talking to someone 'in the know' could help alleviate a bit of it. If you call around, and no one will do the consultation for free, at least you tried. :)
Worst case scenario.... If possible, why not take a quick vacation, if you can manage it, to New York next month. From what I understand, you don't have to be a state resident to apply for a marriage license. Have the ceremony, legally, there, then have another ceremony, the wedding you want, at home later on. Just an idea.
Congrats, by the way! I wish you both the best of luck!
Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 26, 2011, 12:11:59 PM
While civil is different from criminal (my area of involvement), I cannot stress how often I have seen people pay a lot more on the back end than they would have if they would have just bought an hour or so of time from competent counsel. And while I understand that finances might be tight, would you rather spend a few hundred dollars now or potentially several thousand down the road?
The issue with money is this, I work part time and hardly have enough money to pay my bills right now let alone try to get a lawyer to talk to me. I've got more than a year until the wedding, I'm sure I'll figure something out. I need to work on exactly what I'd ask an attorney anyway.
Lifemorewistful, thank you, I appreciate your kind words. We're very excited about our wedding and the life we have ahead of us.
A vacation to New York really isn't doable right now, though I'm so excited by the news of them passing the law, the rest of the country is just one step closer. Also, we could get married in New York, but we'd be living in either Georgia or South Carolina and when it comes to different states, SC or GA wouldn't have to honor our New York marriage license. -sigh- Someday the rest of the country will wake up.
Anytime, doll! Anyone who manages to find love in the sometimes messed up world is counted as blessed in my book.
True about them not having to recognize it in your state. If you marry in your home state and he has legally changed his birth certificate, then I don't see how there would be a problem, unless someone pushed the issue on some technicality.
Congrats again!
Perhaps there is a free Legal Aid near you or pehaps the ACLU could give some free advice.
I wish you both the best.
Julie
If all fails, and you have been falsified or just plain rejected... take a road trip to Canada eh! Your guaranteed here no matter what you are :P
Hell I betcha' we would harbour extraterrestrials here with no problem :P