hi well ive never known what the exact definition of female privilige is in the ts world, and i want to know what definition does female privilige have to transwomen? om just curious to know :)
not sure I follow what you mean?
Quote from: Ceridwynn on June 28, 2011, 04:49:30 PM
not sure I follow what you mean?
Im not too sure either haha, but sometimes on this site i see like posts about male or female privilige, and im just curious to know what exact meaning that has for transgender people? is it like new rights? or treatments or something of that sort....
The term "privilege" is mostly used as something the other _________(person) has that supposedly makes their life a piece of cake compared to your hard crust of life. These are not legal rights. They are cultural things that place another person on a higher social plane that all others.
Examples:
Male privilege is what the Femininist Movement targets as un-deseireable, and translates out to the cultural WHY that men make more money in life, get cushy promotions on the job, can dress like slobs, can think of women as sex objects to their hearts content without societal disapproval (ohter than that of the feminists, who have no privilige by their definition) Trans women are claimed to have been permanently tainted from true femininity by our posession of male privilege even though we hated it. ETC. ???
Cis privilege is what non-trans people enjoy since none of them can be weirdo, sicko perverts that we are. >:-)
My snarky little digs aside, they are serious issues that face society today. See if you can get the book Whipping Girl by Julia Serrano and it will give you a VERY good introduction to the places and privilege issues that we trans people are up against. For now though if you see the word, it means someone is being nasty to someone else for some reason, but is not using four letter words to express it. >:(
I offer the following list not as "truth" but as a description of common ideas, some of which I disagree with.
Many men would claim women have the "privilege" of :
Having men open doors for them
Getting to go to the lifeboats first
Not having to pay for dates
Getting to get married and have a husband support them without being condemned as lazy or lacking ambition
Having an advantage in getting child custody (in the US anyway - not true everywhere if at all)
Getting supported by an ex-spouse for "nothing"
not having to compete all the time especially in the workplace (I know some women disagree with this)
being able to be emotional without being criticized as crazy (as much anyway)
and so on -
I am jealous of genetic women's ability to bear children, but I do not think that is a social privilege so much as a biological blessing.
I do not know if I would call it privilege, but there are ways women benefit from social roles ascribed to them. Women also suffer, but that is a different discussion. For example, many male to female trans-folk, myself included, believe men's clothes are insufferably boring and dull - lacking color or creativity. I fear being seen as a male wearing female clothes because men are heavily criticized for being effeminate in any way by many people (not all).
I agree also Whipping Girl is a very true and important book. Among other points, women are often criticized for living within the social roles ascribed to women. It is accepted women can be more emotional, but get disrespect as a group because they are "emotional."
As a male to female trans-person, I am aware of having to give up "male-privilege" the farther into femaleness I go. I hope there is a compensating "female-privilege" to make my efforts worthwhile. (I think there is - I really love women's clothes, and really want to look good in them).
I am also aware "privilege" pro or con is not the main point - the main point is to be able to be yourself whatever that is and live in safety and respect. Unfortunately social discrimination and uneven "privileges" exist, just as biology does.
Kendall
In terms of transexuals, privileges do and don't work according specifically to if you can pass or not. Women have 'female privileges' based on implied hardships, social placement. etc. ---The fact that they experience and have a physical woman body (and as cis people typically believe, mind as well) combined with traditions honed out of historical treatment of these people, so if you fail to pass or are openly transsexual, bets are that more close-minded people will refuse to acknowledge female/male rights for FtM/MtF, and not even give them their physical origin sex's privileges in place. This is essentially a spiteful behavior against transsexuals, so I would assume that if someone's alright with a transsexual, then they won't deny the privileges of the true gender. We don't have specific privileges since we haven't really dug out something for ourselves in history and tradition, though. (Granted, at least we can call 'hate crime' still at least...? XD)
Perceived female/male privilege is also considered one of the reasons a cisgender may pursue transsexual transition, so therapists will sometimes directly attempt to discern if this is going on with their patients as an unintentional or intentional effort.
I think there are times when actual flat-out rules/laws work according to the gender privileges in some nations, but it's usually just traditional curtousy. I think when it turns into rules usually concerns purses and how they can sometimes be exceptions to no-container rules.
Quote from: Valeriedances on June 29, 2011, 12:39:06 PM
One cisgendered female privilege that transwomen dont enjoy is the ability to go on a date and relax without the fear of not being accepted or attacked by their date just for existing.
Never had issues on dates. Was always pretty relaxed and enjoyed myself, but then again i had a method for determining scumbags via decent guys and broke it off with scumbags before it reached a point i had to tell them anything.
Quote from: Valeriedances on June 29, 2011, 01:36:10 PM
Yes, but even nice men may not accept us. And I make it a rule now not to tell them anything right away. But isnt that privilege? Not having to make that determination?
Any woman with a dark secret goes through the same thing. Imagine if your GG and hitting it off great, but something in your past makes you undesirable perhaps to some people. While dating you dont tell your deepest darkest secrets up front right away you build enough trust with the person to be able to tell them once you have decided they are worth knowing. Any number of things can make a guy not want to continue dating, being TS is one, but there are many others. So in that regard we are exactly the same as all other women.
Quote from: Marta on June 28, 2011, 03:18:09 PM
hi well ive never known what the exact definition of female privilige is in the ts world, and i want to know what definition does female privilige have to transwomen? om just curious to know :)
What privileges a woman has more to do with her beauty, age, where she is, what kind of financial power she has, what level of education, physical power, etc, rather than whether she is cis or trans.
Personally, as a female whose body has been altered by testosterone, and who has been forced to perform as male, yes, I do feel I have an advantage over cis females, add to that that I am very passable, and OMG the jeoulsy. >:-)
Kate D (the D stands for the size of my bra cup}
Quote from: kate durcal on June 29, 2011, 06:17:15 PM
What privileges a woman has more to do with her beauty, age, where she is, what kind of financial power she has, what level of education, physical power, etc, rather than whether she is cis or trans.
Personally, as a female whose body has been altered by testosterone, and who has been forced to perform as male, yes, I do feel I have an advantage over cis females, add to that that I am very passable, and OMG the jeoulsy. >:-)
Kate D (the D stands for the size of my bra cup}
heh i read this and remembered this quote :
"Being an ugly woman is like being a man...you're gonna have to work." ~ Daniel Tosh.
Then again some good looking guys dont have to work either...
Well, even if you pass completely there are still some "privileges" that aren't available to people. Everywhere I go, men will go out of their way to help me, talk to me, flirt with meand so on... I even had my waiter go to the store and buy me a Dr. Pepper onetime because the restaurant didn't serve Dr. Pepper. However, I don't accept dates from men because I'm too scared. For the last year and a half I get asked out anywhere from 1-3 times a week, and I am constantly having to make up excuses and say no. Generally, I go home and cry because it's the major aspect of my life that stops me from living a seemingly normal life as a girl. I also feel I can't go to the beach, or go swimming.. I don't like to wear skirts without leggings or tights because I like the security of them. I don't take Yoga or go to the Gym because I'm scared about hiding my parts. So, even though everyone views me as a biological girl, I can't live my life completely as I wish. However, even though getting SRS will help solve a lot of these problems, I will still be reluctant to accept dates.
Oddly enough, I met a girl a couple of weeks ago and we are now dating. I never expected to date another girl, so it was a nice surprise. Funny enough, when we started dating I had to come out again. Whereas 3 years ago I came out to everyone in the south that I was trans and moving to Portland... now in Portland I had to come out to everyone who doesn't know about my past/me being trans (which is most people here) that I was a dating a woman and a lesbian. Pretty ironic how that works...
Quote from: kate durcal on June 29, 2011, 06:17:15 PM
What privileges a woman has more to do with her beauty, age, where she is, what kind of financial power she has, what level of education, physical power, etc, rather than whether she is cis or trans.
Personally, as a female whose body has been altered by testosterone, and who has been forced to perform as male, yes, I do feel I have an advantage over cis females, add to that that I am very passable, and OMG the jeoulsy. >:-)
Kate D (the D stands for the size of my bra cup} ok......
Quote from: VannaSiamese on June 30, 2011, 12:14:33 PM
Well, even if you pass completely there are still some "privileges" that aren't available to people. Everywhere I go, men will go out of their way to help me, talk to me, flirt with meand so on... I even had my waiter go to the store and buy me a Dr. Pepper onetime because the restaurant didn't serve Dr. Pepper. However, I don't accept dates from men because I'm too scared. For the last year and a half I get asked out anywhere from 1-3 times a week, and I am constantly having to make up excuses and say no. Generally, I go home and cry because it's the major aspect of my life that stops me from living a seemingly normal life as a girl. I also feel I can't go to the beach, or go swimming.. I don't like to wear skirts without leggings or tights because I like the security of them. I don't take Yoga or go to the Gym because I'm scared about hiding my parts. So, even though everyone views me as a biological girl, I can't live my life completely as I wish. However, even though getting SRS will help solve a lot of these problems, I will still be reluctant to accept dates.
Oddly enough, I met a girl a couple of weeks ago and we are now dating. I never expected to date another girl, so it was a nice surprise. Funny enough, when we started dating I had to come out again. Whereas 3 years ago I came out to everyone in the south that I was trans and moving to Portland... now in Portland I had to come out to everyone who doesn't know about my past/me being trans (which is most people here) that I was a dating a woman and a lesbian. Pretty ironic how that works...
Well even though it might not be the same issue as yours when i was a bit more chubby i was also afraid to do many things, like swimming or the beach as u said. Most women always have something that makes them uncomfortable and i know for you it's the fact that you have the wrong parts. However i believe there's always someone that likes you no matter what. I always felt insecure about many things but later i realized that those things mostly just bother me. Im 20 years old and for most of my life i felt like no one would ever want me- for various reasons one of them being that for many years i was a bit overweight. but when guys started talking to me and noticing me than i realized that those things were just things that bothered me and they saw past it. Like you i got asked out a lot but my insecurities would stop me from accepting it. The wrong parts are something different than simply being overweight, not every man is going to be ok with that. But i know that some people are more accepting than others who knows you might be lucky enough to find someone like that. I also believe you should take comfort in the fact that you can do something about your parts if you really want to and can, but just the fact that you can change them is very comforting i believe. Than after that you have nothing to worry about anymore
Quote from: Marta on June 30, 2011, 04:32:05 PM
Well even though it might not be the same issue as yours when i was a bit more chubby i was also afraid to do many things, like swimming or the beach as u said. Most women always have something that makes them uncomfortable and i know for you it's the fact that you have the wrong parts. However i believe there's always someone that likes you no matter what. I always felt insecure about many things but later i realized that those things mostly just bother me. Im 20 years old and for most of my life i felt like no one would ever want me- for various reasons one of them being that for many years i was a bit overweight. but when guys started talking to me and noticing me than i realized that those things were just things that bothered me and they saw past it. Like you i got asked out a lot but my insecurities would stop me from accepting it. The wrong parts are something different than simply being overweight, not every man is going to be ok with that. But i know that some people are more accepting than others who knows you might be lucky enough to find someone like that. I also believe you should take comfort in the fact that you can do something about your parts if you really want to and can, but just the fact that you can change them is very comforting i believe. Than after that you have nothing to worry about anymore
You are right, it is very comforting knowing that surgery is always out there and an option. Still, it's scary... Even though I want SRS, the idea of having such a major surgery is terrifying.
I've noticed that all women have their insecurities regarding something... but still, I feel like my situation is slightly different. If there insecurity was lets say, a deformity, then it wouldn't be so different... but that's how I feel about my parts.
I also had this fantasy years ago before I started to transition that I was going to be just one of the girls after I started hormones... I soon found out though that I hate most women. In fact, my girlfriend is one of the only friends I have who is female.... I just prefer to avoid befriending a lot of girls because they seem so insincere and ingenuine to me a lot of the time.
So, what I thought was going to be a female privilege of being just one of the girls actually turned out to be sorta a nightmare... I just don't really like a lot of women now =P
I for one would like to know Izumi's method for telling scumbags from decent guys! haha that would be a good thing to know ;)
Women have an entirely different paradigm for seeing the world than men. Most modern western cultures are patriarchal, meaning the men are seen as having most of the privileges. But women have privileges too, and some have been mentioned here. It's a different mindset, a different way to get what you want. This reminds me of a joke...
A little girl and a little boy were out behind the barn playing "show and tell". The little boy points between his legs and says, "Ha! I've got one of these and you don't!"
The little girl looks down and replies, "well, I've got one of these, and I can get all of those I want."
Pretty Girls Rule The World
Quote from: LightBulbs on June 29, 2011, 12:31:34 PM
I guess a lot of trans women have the privelage of looking female and pretty while thinking like men? Which is pretty cool and unique. Thats the only one I can think of that doesnt commonly apply to cis women.
This statement is kinda poking me the wrong way. I don't want to say that I have the exact same thought processes as any other girl, but I certainly don't think like a guy.
Quote from: Samantharz on June 30, 2011, 07:28:50 PM
This statement is kinda poking me the wrong way. I don't want to say that I have the exact same thought processes as any other girl, but I certainly don't think like a guy.
I soooo do not think like a man... I can't even figure out how they think :-\
Men are so easy, they only want one thing. We can control them by just being ourselves, they will bring roses to the second date to get what they need. We are so lucky really, men are so simple minded.
Quote from: tekla on June 30, 2011, 07:20:52 PM
Pretty Girls Rule The World
wait.... then how come they are not in the whitehouse or in politics calling all the shots and making all the money living in the top x% and deciding all the rules and futures of societies aka ruling the world?
Pretty girls rule you?
Quote from: Francis Ann Burgett on July 01, 2011, 12:13:02 AM
Men are so easy, they only want one thing. We can control them by just being ourselves, they will bring roses to the second date to get what they need. We are so lucky really, men are so simple minded.
is that all men or only the ones that own their own private jets and light cigars with billion dollar bills?
Men are so easy, they only want one thing. We can control them by just being ourselves
Perhaps that's true, but most likely you only have one thing to offer them. With the men I've known in my life, when it comes down to a choice between the job and their girl/partner/wife, every one of them choose the job, every time.
And control is always an illusion.