Note: I don't mean to come off rude, demeaning, ignorant, or anything of that nature.
It's been bugging me for a while. I've been to therapists since I was 9, diagnosed early in life, out in my teens, transitioning in my later teens. But when they documented as "GID"s on my paperwork, I always wondered what exactly that really meant. I know it means "Gender Identity Disorder", which was coverage on my grandmother's insurance at the time so I wasn't listed as an actual Trans, but confused, more or less.
Call me what you may, but... Since when did Gender become an Identity? I've seen it said here. I've questioned it to my full extent. However, the pieces don't seem to connect appropriately.
As a person, you can identify as Italian-American, Russian, or various other things. But usually, it's because that's what's in your blood, where you are from. You can identify as Hipster, Goth, Nerd, or Geek, but that's usually based on preferences, hobbies, or the like.
I do not identify as a male. At no point in my life, did I go "Well, I think today I want to be a boy". At least, I do not see it that way. Why do we call it gender identity if it's really just a case of "oops, god dun f--- up?" (not meaning to offend anyone but I have no other metaphorical equivalent to that reference). Because, I am a male. I do not identify as one. I just am. How is it my fault someone goofed up? That I was blessed with such a fabulous curse? It's like an ex-girlfriend told me. I was never a girl, I may have had the picture but the pieces were from a different puzzle. She was remarkably accepting, and caring. We are still friends to this day. When I'd rant and rave about how angry I was for being born this way, or being depressed because I will never be a real male. I will never be good enough for a straight girl when they can turn around and find a real man that can give them what they want or need without any loops or jumps. And she'd just stare at me and go "You are a real man, as real as ever. You just had to work a little harder to be a real man. There is no shame in that."
So... Is it only me that thinks this way? That... well, I just am a male. And we're all a part of a crappy novel, like the likes of "Help! I'm Trapped in My Teachers Body!" (by Todd Strasser).
Tell me if I'm completely off the mark..
Gender, noun, the state of being male or female.
Identity, noun, the set of behavioral or personal characteristics by which an individual is recognizable as a member of a group.
Gender Identity, noun, your identity as it is experienced with regard to your individuality as male or female; awareness normally begin in infancy and is reinforced during adolescence. (For guys like us this statement needs a little tweaking!)
You are male. Therefore (and this is just my opinion) you DO identify as male - most men do! You obviously enjoy more male activities, are more masculine in appearance and presentation etc and those things lead to people identifying you as a male.
You have your identity of who you are and what social groups you belong to or associate with and how you like to behave. Being a male is just another one of those groups. Like I identify as straight. I also identify as easy going. I also identify as a motorcyclist.
Gender identity traditionally sees girls acting girly and boys acting boyish - when it comes to us as you say someone got it a little backwards and upside down! My official diagnosis too is GID. I have no problem with the gender identity bit - as traditions go mine according to "normal" people is a little off. I was born "female" but live my life and am accepted by society (for the most part) as a man. The problem I have with GID is the disorder part. I do not have a disorder - I have a birth defect. Disorder depicts something negative, and there is nothing wrong with me.
Or any of us for that matter.
Cheers.
QuoteThe problem I have with GID is the disorder part. I do not have a disorder - I have a birth defect. Disorder depicts something negative, and there is nothing wrong with me.
^This. I think the gender identity bit is fair enough, since I couldn't really think of a better way of puting it. But calling what I am a disorder makes me unbelievably angry. It implies that my 'condition' is a mental one, something that is normally fixed by therapy or mood altering drugs. Being labelled with a disorder has led people to think I can be 'cured'.
I always thought it was Gender Identity Dysphoria rather then Disorder. Dysphoria being a conflict between the Gender Identity apparent to others, and the Gender Identity felt internally.
As it is not possible to alter the brain to match the body, the only way to resolve this conflict is to align the body with the brain. Hnece SRS etc.
Karen.
Gender identity is something inside of you. Some people like to remove the word "identity" from "gender identity" because usually the phrase "gender identity" is only used for trans people as if our genders are less real than cis people.
Your gender identity is something you've always had which might've been a different way you felt about yourself and your gender but it could've been the same.
I think I understand what you are saying, Ratchet. Thank you for helping to clear it up Nygeel.
The thing is, I agree with Aussie. I identify as male and every man I know, both cis and trans, also identify as male.
There are some who see themselves as outside gender, such as gender queer, and they find their own identity. However I don't think that is what you mean.
For all intents and purposes, identity is how other people perceive you. Based, in part, on how your present yourself. It is a it is a societal construct in other words. Now that probably isn't ideal. Still the world around us forms the thoughts in head. You think in words. The words that you think in were put in there by other people. So who we are is a result of the world we live in. In that way it also forms our identity. As transmen we are predestined to see the world in a masculine way.
I'm not saying this is true, but it almost seems as if you are looking for ways to feel persecuted. Gender Identity Disorder is called that because our assigned gender doesn't fit with our Identity.
I think a few others covered my thoughts rather well on this. By seeing yourself as male ("Because, I am a male.") you identify as a male just as someone could identify as Italian-America, Russian, hipster, goth, nerd, geek, etc. They might not see it as identifying as those things either and say that they just are, but by doing so they're technically identifying themselves as that.
I think perhaps you might be dwelling too much on the idea of "gender identity" in the context of GID? One doesn't need to have GID to have a gender identity: everyone has one.
That said...I did want to mention that the American Psychological Association, at least, is looking to amend the acronym: one of the revisions in the works for the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition) is recategorizing the previous edition's chapter of Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders into separate chapters, one of which is Gender Dysphoria. Check it out: http://www.dsm5.org/proposedrevision/Pages/GenderDysphoria.aspx (http://www.dsm5.org/proposedrevision/Pages/GenderDysphoria.aspx)
as i see it "gender identity" is a concept some (more or less) smart people made up as a means to explain the cases where gender and sex in a person aren't the same. it's not a bad way to call it, since identity defines you so much more as a person than your looks. in cases unrelated to gender where people are undercover for some reason or other, we use to speak of their "real identity" as opposed to their made-up identity. gender identity is part of one's real identity, the person one is when not trying to be someone else, and therefore i see no problem using this term (in the right context)
gender identity disorder and gender dysphoria are term i have problems with, though. both seem to assume that what causes dysphoria is one's identity, and not the fear of not being accepted by society or one's body not matching one's identity
Quote from: Kvall on June 29, 2011, 04:03:20 PM
I think that gender and gender identity are pretty much synonyms, but unfortunately the latter is unevenly applied to trans people, even though everyone has a gender identity.
That's more what I was thinking, I suppose. That my gender tends to match my identity. Men can like women things and still be a man, and there are men who like women things and are women. Same with girls. I just don't really understand why identity is always thrown into the mix.
I'm not offended by the "disorder" label, or anything. I don't have a disorder, I am just me. I don't care how people choose to label me. I can only be me. I was just curious as to what the "Identity" really meant. Because, honestly, I'm not well versed in these things. I don't know about all the types of sexuality, I don't really understand all that stuff. So I was curious, since you guys would be the best in describing what it really is.
Thanks for your input, it does help me understand it all a little better. I just still am baffled, I guess. To me, you are just you, who ever that is. I don't really care what you "identify" as. But the world is a very different, diverse place.
Quote from: Aussie Jay on June 29, 2011, 03:37:32 AM
Tell me if I'm completely off the mark..
Gender, noun, the state of being male or female.
Identity, noun, the set of behavioral or personal characteristics by which an individual is recognizable as a member of a group.
Gender Identity, noun, your identity as it is experienced with regard to your individuality as male or female; awareness normally begin in infancy and is reinforced during adolescence. (For guys like us this statement needs a little tweaking!)
You are male. Therefore (and this is just my opinion) you DO identify as male - most men do! You obviously enjoy more male activities, are more masculine in appearance and presentation etc and those things lead to people identifying you as a male.
You have your identity of who you are and what social groups you belong to or associate with and how you like to behave. Being a male is just another one of those groups. Like I identify as straight. I also identify as easy going. I also identify as a motorcyclist.
Gender identity traditionally sees girls acting girly and boys acting boyish - when it comes to us as you say someone got it a little backwards and upside down! My official diagnosis too is GID. I have no problem with the gender identity bit - as traditions go mine according to "normal" people is a little off. I was born "female" but live my life and am accepted by society (for the most part) as a man. The problem I have with GID is the disorder part. I do not have a disorder - I have a birth defect. Disorder depicts something negative, and there is nothing wrong with me.
Or any of us for that matter.
Cheers.
Right on Jay. I second your post, and add: I do not have a dysphoria, I am OK with my gender -the one I chose for myself- it is society that has the dysphoria.
Kate D
I think "gender identity" is preferred over "gender" because in some languages, such as French, "gender" rarely (never, actually) applies to people. It's more international.
gender identity is like any other idenities, such as ethnic identity, religious identity, etc
Quote from: A on June 29, 2011, 06:52:35 PM
I think "gender identity" is preferred over "gender" because in some languages, such as French, "gender" rarely (never, actually) applies to people. It's more international.
But somehow it applies to cars and pencils. Haha, how they decide whether a word gets the "la" or "le" when it is an inanimate object is beyond me. But I definitely see what you mean.
Forget the Gender and Identity parts, what I always had a problem with was the "Disorder" part too. I don't believe I have a "disorder" ... I think I'm a perfectly normal human variation. I realize that in order to get different treatments, eventually change gender on an ID, etc. that you have to roll with that, but I reject the idea it's a mental disorder.
Quote from: kate durcal on June 29, 2011, 06:49:38 PM
Right on Jay. I second your post, and add: I do not have a dysphoria, I am OK with my gender -the one I chose for myself- it is society that has the dysphoria.
Kate D
Thanks Kate! And I agree with your add. I mean I may have "body dysphoria" from time to time but my gender whether it be identity or whatever is just fine - I'm a man. I just have a different history than some other guys..
Cheers.
insideontheoutside: Well, transsexuals are people who cannot be happy without medical treatment (hormones and/or surgery). I think this fact alone is enough to call what we have a disorder, no?
Ratchet: Uhm, actually, in the development of the language, gender came before sex. It comes from latin, I believe. I'm not sure as to what originally gave nouns their "gender", but it has a logical reason. I remember I found it logical when I learned it, but I don't remember what it was. In any case, it ended up that the sexes were not in the same category; "man" was "masculine" and "woman" was "feminine", which is, truly, useful to make the difference in sentences. Only then, by extension/comparison, were nouns linked to the "sexes". That's what I have been told, anyway.
the GID being a "mental disorder" i think it will turn out the same as homosexuality, as that too was considered a mental disorder but got removed from the list. i think when people start figuring out that we were born this way and theres nothing wrong with us then it wont be called GID and it will be more socially acceptable.
Well, there is one crucial difference: Homosexuals require no medical treatment, but we do.
@a: the gender distinctions in indo-european languages are much older than latin, goes further back than sanskrit. the original distinction was between animate and inanimate, but somehow languages have started making the distinction also/exclusively between masculine and feminine, and in some cases also neuter. english is actually pretty weird in that it has lost the grammatical gender (was still there in old english), only remains of it are the gender specific pronouns, but also other languages like persian and bengali have lost this feature.
finno-ugric languages don't have gender at all, not even in pronouns, while some bantu languages are known to have over 20 different grammatical "genders" (now called "noun classes") which have nothing to do with sex at all (all humans are the same gender, animals, trees, abstracts have their own etc. number is also expressed through noun classes). some australian languages have even less logical classifications (men and animates in one class, women, fire, and dangerous things in another..)
Quote from: A on June 30, 2011, 08:23:09 AM
Well, there is one crucial difference: Homosexuals require no medical treatment, but we do.
I don't
require medical treatment. Maybe you do, but to say everyone does is not accurate either. There's too much variation with these terms to be so, "THIS or THAT and nothing else". And when homosexuality was considered a disordered they wanted to treat it medically. The whole thing is this - some bunch of psychologists came up with all of these things people deem as disorders now. Many have been over-turned, if you will. There was an era where pregnant women were treated as though they had a mental disorder. Pregnant women definitely need medical treatment but to say they were mental AND needed treatment was wrong. Also, plenty of transsexuals throughout history had no means of medical treatment. Some got by, some probably committed suicide or something. Variation. I honestly think that sometimes, people rely too heavily on medical treatments. You can bash me about that if you want, but I believe life is worth living - whether I medically change my body or not. Some may have a different viewpoint, as I once did, but I was able to change that viewpoint. I get it matters a lot more to other people but I don't think everyone who's a transsexual or who gets diagnosed with GID actually has a disorder. I truly believe that some people are just born with different brain chemistry or hormone profiles that don't fit the 100% male or 100% female mold.
I agree with what your friend said. That you just have to work a little harder than the rest. The way I see it is an exceeding of man. If you were born biologically male do you think you'd still be born with the same strengths you've gained from your whole experience? Not to mention the puberty a biological girl has to go through. Not one man has every experienced that, though I'm not saying that a boys puberty isn't tough as well.
I also like that phrase of yours, that God F'd up. Very true.
insideontheoutside: Hmm, actually, I may be mistaken, but I think a transsexual actually seeks and requires (not to "live" in all cases, but to achieve more happiness at least), situational, medical and economical aspects aside, medical treatment to make their body as congruent as possible to the chosen sex/gender, no? Else they would be called "transgendered" without going in the "transsexual" category, wouldn't they?
What I meant is that an homosexual, social stigma aside, theorically, is happy as is and does not require surgery or something. We (most of us, I think, anyway), even if we were allowed to dress as whatever gender we would want to without any social disregard or anything like that, theorically, should still seek transition. Else we would be crossdressers, right? That means we cannot achieve optimal happiness and/or functionality without a medical transition of sort.
This is a phenomenon that has yet to be explained and as individuals affected by it need physicians' attention, at least until they better understand it, I think it's appropriate to call it a disorder. Aren't all things people are born with that greatly affect their lives normally called something like that? I mean, they need a starting point to actually understand things.
If someone were born with a greatly disabling birth defect that cannot be removed without surgery, wouldn't it be some sort of "disorder"?
Quote from: A on July 05, 2011, 09:03:06 AM
If someone were born with a greatly disabling birth defect that cannot be removed without surgery, wouldn't it be some sort of "disorder"?
nope, it's just a birth defect. something was not aligned right during pregnancy, just as with any kind of ->-bleeped-<- where body and mind have been assigned different sex/gender. of course a birth defect may lead to disorder if not treated correctly, but that's all (as i see it). so the reason why so many transsexuals seem to have some kind of disorder is that their condition has been kind of maltreated, often from a very young age. if that makes any sense
Oh, perhaps I have the wrong vocabulary, then...
But isn't it still a "problem" that needs to be corrected? How do you call it then if it's not a disorder?
Quote from: A on July 05, 2011, 11:24:35 AM
But isn't it still a "problem" that needs to be corrected? How do you call it then if it's not a disorder?
that's a good question. it is certainly a problem of sorts that you may either correct or learn to live with, but what one decides to do should really be an individual choice, and not a prescription a doctor gives someone after diagnosing them. i have no idea what it should be called, but it's not a disorder as there's nothing about being transsexual that automatically makes one unable to function in any way
i understand that transsexualism can come with a lot of body dysphoria, but i often wonder what would happen if the entire society accepted a female-bodied man as just as much of a man as a one-armed man (or the other way round for an mtf). if the entire social stigma just disappeared and people were what they said they were, and even families accepted this reality, a whole lot of the reason for body dysphoria might disappear for many of those who suffer now, for all i know. unfortunately it's impossible to study this, as we're not in a society where girls would tell their friend (in the shower) not to bother about those things between her legs, because she's still a lot cuter than many of them feel like they are
Quote from: A on July 05, 2011, 09:03:06 AM
insideontheoutside: Hmm, actually, I may be mistaken, but I think a transsexual actually seeks and requires (not to "live" in all cases, but to achieve more happiness at least), situational, medical and economical aspects aside, medical treatment to make their body as congruent as possible to the chosen sex/gender, no? Else they would be called "transgendered" without going in the "transsexual" category, wouldn't they?
I believe the term transgender is not a psychological "condition" but is just used to describe people who don't fit their biological gender. Transsexualism was first coined by Harry Benjamin in which he defined "levels" of it in a psychological capacity. At the core, transsexual individuals desire to live and be accepted as the opposite gender they were assigned at birth. Not all want to have surgery or alter their bodies though.