From Whence Comes the Transgender Community?
cristan williams
http://www.cristanwilliams.com/b/2011/06/29/from-whence-comes-the-transgender-community/ (http://www.cristanwilliams.com/b/2011/06/29/from-whence-comes-the-transgender-community/)
Every so often I have encounters with the TS-not-TG group. I cherish these encounters because they often inspire me to do research. Sometimes transsexuals who argue for the destruction of the transgender community make statements that cause me to question my assumptions – which is a good thing!
I enjoy having my perspective influenced by evidence and when people in the TS-not-TG camp make certain claims about the word "transgender" (eg, crossdressers forced it on transsexuals and therefore transsexuals are victims of a "Borg collective assimilation process") I am inspired to look at what the evidence has to say.
"From whence"?
Yes, Arch "whence".
As far as I am concerned TG is just an umbrella term for all of us who are somehow gender variant. The idea of fighting amongst ourselves is unhelpful to everyone, in the face of the issues confronting us all.
This appears to be an American phenomena from where I stand.
It seems like American society has a greater then normal need to segregate all sorts of groups in an attempt to label, classify, and rank them.
Stop it! There are tigers in the jungle behind you!
Karen.
I'm fine with "whence," but "from whence" is redundant.
I don't see why we can't all identify as we wish but understand that some of us use "transgender" as an umbrella term and some don't...and some people want to define other people and some don't.
Perhaps the U.S. is so obsessively taxonomical because we're so heterogeneous.
Or not.
But "from whence" flows better.
Quote from: justmeinoz on July 03, 2011, 02:03:38 AM
But "from whence" flows better.
I don't think it does, but I rarely think incorrect usage sounds better. It's something up with which I do not put. :P
Technically, "from whence" is redundant because "whence" already means "from where" - but "from whence" has centuries of literary usage behind it (including Dickens and Shakespeare), so it's all good :).
I thought I was verbose 'til Christan got on this subject!
I'm not sure the "kill it with facts!!!" approach is going to accomplish the purpose she wants.
Although I'm not neck deep in this battle (ankle deep might be a stretch) i think the passion on both sides is kind of odd. I've seen comments going both ways that I thought were pretty heavily overstated.
I DO like the TS/TG distinction because I do see a logical distinction between gender identity and gender expression
I don't see that as a way to say "my thing is bigger and more important that your thing" - just that it's a different thing, with different needs and concerns.
Just as trans is different than homosexual, just as gay is different than lesbian (if we are supposed to pretend there's no distinction between TS and TG, why are their four letters in LGBT? After all, isn't it true that a bisexual is only rlevant to the situation to the extent that they are, essentially, "sometimes gay"? Yet no one protests that bisexuals are considered distinct from homosexuals)
A lot of it strikes me as a lot more effort expended towards winning an argument than towards so called "progress"
it seems to me that you can make just as much progress by noting the trans community includes both TS (gender identity) and TG (gender expression) people, and each of these have a set of legitimate concerns which sometimes overlap - just as everyone understands that "LGBT" includes both homosexual people and trans people who both have legitimate concerns which sometimes overlap.
I frankly don't get why the "umbrella" TG people get pissy about the TS people who want to make that distinction so long as everyone is willing to work together.
I DO understand the frustration with the (few) "TS not TG" people who basically say "my life is fine and i want no part of your agenda" - not saying those folks are not entitled but at least the frustration is somewhat rational.
what i do know from my own experience is this - when I talk to cis people who are sympathetic to me, or at least willing to listen, I do NOT want to have them assume that what is going on in my life is the same thing as what is going on for the fetishistic crossdresser or the drag queen. I'm not going to dis or demean the CD, but I think it's right and proper that i say to the questioning person "there deal is not my deal and vice versa"
I can do that without saying I refuse to work with others TG people who are not TS.
History demonstrates that when people are divided, they crumble and fall.
I think we've managed to put up a pretty good fight against those claiming religious justification. I also believe that the defense against those who wave children around has been pretty effective. The medical community has come a long way, in the past year, for example, the UK health aithoritires said that it was acceptable to perscribe pubatry blockers.
But now we are faced with an onslaught we cannot win, against ourselves. More specifically, by those that seek to divorce themselves from everyone else on the basis that their aims are somehow more pure, more truthful, more coragious. Let's cut to the chase here. Superior.
I am still not quite sure how transsexuals seek to differentiate themselves from the mortals of this world. I do know, by any of the current definations, I will be excluded, consigned to the lesser group, transgender. Or should that be Only Transgender?
The long term damage this is going to do, and it will, make no mistake, could destroy almost every achievement we've collectively made so far.
Now there is a good argument to suggest that the Sex crowd may be being duped by outside forces, in much the same way that the feminists, for example, have been hijacked by nazis. We're not suppose to mention this sort of thing, it ushers in the rather predictable claims of paranoia. Sadly, that little notion is more a feature of opposition than comprehension. To suggest that opponents do not influtrate is to claim, for example, that every woman who has ever expressed support for feminism, automatically thinks all men are rapists and little girls are encouraged to have sex with their fathers.
But history has also demonstrated that, when these sort of divisions emerge, then, after breifly attempting to point out the errors, (invariably dismissed by the superior minds of the seperatists), it's best to let them go.
I have to say, I find the attitude of the Sex group distasteful, stupid, self centred and short sighted. I wish them well, but frankly, believe they are in for a very rude shock when they discover that they will need to spend the remainder of their lives as second class citiziens, labeled with the transsexual badge.
Bye bye.
Quote from: spacial on July 03, 2011, 06:33:01 AM
I have to say, I find the attitude of the Sex group distasteful, stupid, self centred and short sighted. I wish them well, but frankly, believe they are in for a very rude shock when they discover that they will need to spend the remainder of their lives as second class citiziens, labeled with the transsexual badge.
Bye bye.
oh puh-leez. I dare say that the vast majority of those of us who are post-operative are NOT living as second-class citizens. And many of us live life just fine without society as a collective whole knowing about our previous treatment for a birth defect.
I would further concur with, I believe it was Val's post in another thread, that some of the pre-ops and non-ops would have a vastly different viewpoint if they were post-operative. If that makes us come across as displaying a sense of superiority, then so be it. But it DOES put us squarely in the realm of reality as opposed to discussions of the theoretical world where some can only guess about the life of the post-op.
I was suggesting that, those that seek to separate themselves from the transgender community by adopting transsexual are making a serious mistake. It was certainly not directed at all post op people or even, dare I say it, the majority.
How you choose to position yourself is a matter for you.
The objective must be, self expression. If the objective is getting an op, by any means, including acting according to a script, handed down from on high, then I wish those who are prepared to accept that, well.
If, as a consequence of subjecting themselves to that, they then believe they are somehow superior to the rest of us, then, as I suggested, please don't bang the door as they leave.
I will contine to support all of my brothers and sisters in Transgender in their struggel for the absolute right of self expression. Which is the only rational, long term objective, however each choose to express that.
Quote from: spacial on July 03, 2011, 09:19:06 AM
I was suggesting that, those that seek to separate themselves from the transgender community by adopting transsexual are making a serious mistake. It was certainly not directed at all post op people or even, dare I say it, the majority.
How you choose to position yourself is a matter for you.
And yet in the first paragraph, you tell me that the very manner in which I position myself is a "serious mistake." I don't know how that can NOT be taken as being directed to myself and others in my position...
QuoteThe objective must be, self expression. If the objective is getting an op, by any means, including acting according to a script, handed down from on high, then I wish those who are prepared to accept that, well.
No, the objective was NOT self-expression. It always was about congruence and fixing a disconnect that had resulted from an error of birth. And those that have no surgical track in mind will probably never grasp that element of having been born with a transsexual medical condition nor will they EVER understand why some of us want nothing to do with the umbrella concepts.
QuoteIf, as a consequence of subjecting themselves to that, they then believe they are somehow superior to the rest of us, then, as I suggested, please don't bang the door as they leave.
yeah, no marginalization of MY beliefs (or those of others in my position) through a statement like that...after all, you have already inferred that our beliefs are taken as a statement of superiority rather than simply accepting them at face value that YOUR issues as a pre/non-op are more often than not going to be different than MY issues as a person who had a medical condition treated many years ago and simply prefer to live in a binary world.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record here, can we please try to keep it civil?
I offer sincere apologies to all who may have felt uncomfortable by anything I've written or who thought they were on the spot over it.
I suppose our little community has to change, over time. New emphasis, new priorities.
I've noticed an increasing distance between some people and others and confess, I found it quite unsettling.
But I'm sure we all change in time and I have done as well.
Hopefully, in time, those who have sponsored this approach can say more.
For my part, I promise to make a lot more effort to keep my own empotional responses under control.
Quote from: Padma on July 03, 2011, 03:07:37 AM
Technically, "from whence" is redundant because "whence" already means "from where" - but "from whence" has centuries of literary usage behind it (including Dickens and Shakespeare), so it's all good :).
Hey, as long as people don't write "for awhile," I'll just live with it. >:-)
I'm still having therapy for the first time I was subjected to "irregardless" :-\.
[this is waaay more fun than arguing about gender labels :)]
Quote from: Padma on July 03, 2011, 02:00:07 PM
I'm still having therapy for the first time I was subjected to "irregardless" :-\.
[this is waaay more fun than arguing about gender labels :)]
be careful or I may have to toss out a dose of
usurpation and other such terms as appeared in the Declaration of Independence...
Quote from: Padma on July 03, 2011, 02:00:07 PM
I'm still having therapy for the first time I was subjected to "irregardless" :-\.
Now, don't go getting all pre-Madonna on me...
We're going way off topic, we'd better tow the line :).
Quote from: Padma on July 03, 2011, 03:14:40 PM
We're going way off topic, we'd better tow the line :).
>>>SMACK<<<
Okay, you're right. I'll stop.
I don't understand why folks are so invested in categorizing other folks in ways that the other folks don't want. There's a big difference between "I see you this way" and "You ARE this way because I say so, regardless of what you actually think."
Actually I sometimes refer to myself as Transgendered rather than Transsexual at first, when trying to explain this to someone who is seriously interested, but knows little of the subject.
I get the feeling that to a lot of people Transsexual causes them to think of Jerry Springer type situations, but if I say Transgender it sounds a lot more "medical". Later I will explain that I am specifically Transsexual, and how this differs from Crossdressing, Transgendered, and Intersex.
Karen.
QuoteHistory demonstrates that when people are divided, they crumble and fall.
a distinction need not be a division - i ask again, are we divided from homosexuals because they are L or G and we are T? Noting a distinction in no way requires that a division occur. that's not to say that there are not some transsexuals who want to fade into the landscape and not be "T" at all - but they will no more be with you if there is no semantic distinction than if there is - those are not the people who choose to fight.
Quoteon the basis that their aims are somehow more pure, more truthful, more coragious. Let's cut to the chase here. Superior.
Again - how about "different"? different does not in any way imply superior. I'll agree there are particular points in which I think the TS claim is more "pure" - for instance, on the front of marriage equality: since the crossdresser is in no way changing their gender, their marriage does not stand to be invalidated if the wrong law passes - the transsexual does face that risk. That's just one example of a difference. Another is medical - the CD or the GV has no need to concern themselves with whether or not an insurance plan covers treatment for GI issues.
To squint and pretend there is no distinction between the real life concerns of TS and TG people is just silly. It does not mean one group is better than the other.
QuoteI am still not quite sure how transsexuals seek to differentiate themselves from the mortals of this world. I do know, by any of the current definations, I will be excluded, consigned to the lesser group, transgender.
Emotionalistic rhetoric without substance. There is no claim to superiority. I do not think it is in error to suggest that from a practical point of view, seeking legal protection for those things a transsexual MUST do in order to complete his or her treatment is a more compelling claim than seeking to expand the scope of when and where a gender-nonconforming person may choose to...non-conform.
The two groups have much common ground there to be sure, but no, it's not logical to sacrifice the ability of the transsexual to use the target-gender restroom (for instance) so that a weekend fetishistic crossdresser can use it while in drag. YES it would be super cool if we lived in a culture where none of that mattered, but it does, and sensible priorities are NOT prejudicial. the all or nothing strategy almost never works well in political action.
but, again, nothing about that implies I am better than you or my needs more important - simply that they are somewhat different.
to take that as saying you are "second class" is your own fault - if you choose to hear an insult where none was delivered there's little anyone can do to stop it.
Quote
The long term damage this is going to do, and it will, make no mistake, could destroy almost every achievement we've collectively made so far.
I don't see compelling evidence of this.
QuoteI have to say, I find the attitude of the Sex group distasteful, stupid, self centred and short sighted.
I'm not sure who "the sex group" is. At the risk of repeating myself (again) - noting the specific needs and distinctions of two allied groups is NOT an argument that either set of concerns is superior to or more important than, the other. Environmentalists work together with animal protection people, but their specific agendas are NOT the same, nor is either necessarily superior to the other by definition. Gays and transgender people, ostensibly, work together, even though clearly they have different goals in many places. Are there many gays who FEEL and ACT as if the trans folks are the ugly step-sister who's not important? SURE.
But because inconsiderate people cop an attitude, it does not therefore logically follow that you throw out the logical premise which underlies the attitude.
Quote from: spacial on July 03, 2011, 09:19:06 AM
I will contine to support all of my brothers and sisters in Transgender in their struggel for the absolute right of self expression. Which is the only rational, long term objective, however each choose to express that.
Indeed. But NO civil rights struggle was one whole cloth in one fell swoop. Such rights are recognized incrementally, when the fearful learn that the world did not, in fact, end the last time more liberty was granted.
I agree with you about the long term endgame, but i do not think it's realistic to assume you achieve checkmate on the first move.
Quote from: Arch on July 03, 2011, 03:20:24 PM
>>>SMACK<<<
Okay, you're right. I'll stop.
I don't understand why folks are so invested in categorizing other folks in ways that the other folks don't want. There's a big difference between "I see you this way" and "You ARE this way because I say so, regardless of what you actually think."
+1
Personally, I find the "Trans Term Wars" to be humorously and ridiculously redundant ::) But that's just my opinion...
I don't find it humourous at all. I see it as, at best, utterly silly at worst, sinister.
The reason for the separation of gays from transgender is that gay is about emphasising their sexuality. That is fine for them, since their objective is a recognition of their fundimentally sexaul relationship.
Transgender saw itself, fundimentally about lifestyle and self expression. What someone may or may not have sexually, is no-one's business. On a personal level, we embrace a wide spectrum of relationships. The unifying factor is how we seek to present ourselves to the world according to our conscience.
While we, as a unified group, present the message of individual liberty, to express ourselves according to our personal conscience. While we continue to meet detractors by labeling them as seeking to impose restrictve values. While we seek to continue and maintain the principals of individualism and liberty, begun after the reformation and which created the USA, ours becomes the real face of American values.
But as I said, I simply cannot see the point in creating a division between some post-op people and the rest of us. I especially don't understand why the post-op people seek to identify themselves with the term, Transexual, when we have previously spent so much energy seeking to stand back from this term, which some have rightly described as reminiscent of Jerry Springer. (I have no intention of changing my sex. My sex is female. My body has been poluted by an ugly growth which I can do little about).
I see no difference between someone who seeks as complete as possible transision, to someone who seeks to express themselves through basic dress style or expressions of gender varient behaviour. Society has already embraced so much gender varient behaviour, from long hair, even pony tails, in men, to essentially male associated clothing in women. The process is only being stalled by those that see the modern world as fundimentally flawed and that the causes of this are moden values.
I appreciate the point that distinction may not be a division. However, this is clearly the effect if not the purpose. I especially find it surprising that some feel the need to proclaim to the world that they are indeed post-op. I also appreciate the point of the claim, but still fail to see the point of the distinction.
I am eagerly looking forward to a clarification from those that seek this.
Quote from: Tammy Hope on July 03, 2011, 11:01:07 PM
Indeed. But NO civil rights struggle was one whole cloth in one fell swoop. Such rights are recognized incrementally, when the fearful learn that the world did not, in fact, end the last time more liberty was granted.
I agree with you about the long term endgame, but i do not think it's realistic to assume you achieve checkmate on the first move.
No, but taking the chess analogy further, the reason a player will show an apparent weakness at an early stage , is to ultimately create a strong position later on. That can only work when the opponent has already, mistakenly assumed they are in a strong position.
The presumption of our oponents is not mistaken. They are infinately stronger than us. They carry all the cards because they carry the forces of law and the mob. Our only hope of winning through here is to deal with each objection with a strong defence that reinforces opponents, not undermines them.
QuoteSociety has already embraced so much gender varient behaviour, from long hair, even pony tails, in men, to essentially male associated clothing in women.
Indeed. And that in itself point to the distinction between "expression" and "condition"
if, for instance, insurers see transsexual medical treatment as nothing but a sort of extreme form of "expression" they have no more reason to cover it than they do implants for the vain cougar.
Furthermore, consider the various businesses and jobs for which the variant expressions you mentioned are NOT an option? Cocktail waitress? Park your butch expression at the door, honey. Banker? We'll pass on the ponytail sir. Police officer? the list goes on and on. To add to that, a man with a ponytail doesn't get to go in the ladies room, nor a butch lesbian in the men's. (generally speaking)
IF our petition is "allow us the freedom to express a gender variant presentation" then that freedom will stop in all the same places the male ponytail stops.
This sort of roadblock is not consistent with the SoC for transsexuals in transition.
Because I'm concerned about where I'm legally allowed to pee, does that mean i'm gonna throw the crossdresser or drag queen under the bus? No. But their problems are not always my problems and mine are definitely not always there's.
I can't really speak to the bit about what the post-ops think - I'm pre-op and under the best case scenario (outside of winning the lottery) i will be for years to come. but i DO understand the temptation to, having done all that can medically be done, just blend in and be "just another woman" - heck the most rewarding days i have now are the days when no one reminds me that I'm not.
i do, also, feel the pull of vocal activism - to clear the path for those who might come behind me, but i very much let my mind wander to a day when I could go all over town and not one soul would recognize me as anything other than just another woman.
Ultimately, perhapps that's the greatest distinction then:
for the Gender Variant who does NOT seen to transition to the status of "just another woman (man)" - there ongoing mission in life is non-conformity.
For the TS, who's dream above all others is to fit smoothly into the customary binary arrangement, the LAST thing they ultimately want is to be seen as "variant" or a non-conformist. Perhaps this is not 100% true but it's the vast majority. I know that in my own mind, the ONLY thing that would make me identify openly as trans post op - in a high profile way - would be if I thought I could make a real difference in acceptance for others just starting out. but even then I would do everything I could to appear entirely "ordinary" - not variant and not "non-conformist"
and even more so if i chose not to be involved in activism.
So what you are ultimately asking is "why do all you people who want very much to conform not want to be labeled non-conformist?"
Which, ya know, kinda answers itself.
Quote from: spacial on July 04, 2011, 02:50:19 AM
Transgender saw itself, fundimentally about lifestyle and self expression. What someone may or may not have sexually, is no-one's business. On a personal level, we embrace a wide spectrum of relationships. The unifying factor is how we seek to present ourselves to the world according to our conscience.
And for me, as a former transsexual, this was NEVER about 'lifestyle' or even 'self-expression.' Both of those terms imply basically that one CHOOSES to present in a particular manner, and for ME, it is critical that the world understands that I had a medical condition and that I did not simply wake up one morning and decided that I wanted to present in a different manner. It WAS about LIFE in the sense of correcting a birth defect. And once the physical was corrected to match the mental, then there WAS no further issue...I could get on living as the lesbian I was intended to be.
I experience both, and they're distinct and separate: there's a way in which I'd like to present myself (which is about clothes, hair, stuff like that) which will indeed be a choice - but there's also a more fundamental change to my anatomical appearance, which isn't something I've "chosen" but something I need to have happen to reflect my sense of true gender (which I never "chose", except while I was choosing to ignore it).
Quote from: Tammy Hope on July 03, 2011, 10:57:13 PMAnother is medical - the CD or the GV has no need to concern themselves with whether or not an insurance plan covers treatment for GI issues.
There are some gender variant, genderqueer, androgynes, third gender and others not mentioned who do want/need/desire/require medical treatment so as to bring their body in congruence with their internal sense of gender, and thus have similar insurance and documentation concerns. I don't think it is as simple as drawing a line and saying TS is this and TG is that. There is overlap.
Z
Many seek mental health services also.
Quote from: tekla on July 04, 2011, 07:35:41 AM
Many seek mental health services also.
Yes. I'm sure I paid my therapist (out of pocket) enough for a nice room redecoration or two :D
Z
I know that when your sitting by yourself, and are looking at yourself vs. the world it and everyone in it that it's easy to draw all sorts of bright lines and hard distinctions. The more real life examples you have, the more in the middle of it you are, the more Möbius that line gets. Because there are all sorts of people, on all sorts of journeys, and at all conceivable points along the way. How the hell am I supposed to tell? I mean the only hard bright line that can be drawn is to have everyone pull down their pants and we'll check it out. I can't believe that's what anyone wants. Though many infer that it is EXACTLY what they want.
Quote from: Zythyra on July 04, 2011, 07:25:36 AM
I don't think it is as simple as drawing a line and saying TS is this and TG is that. There is overlap.
There is NOT enough overlap so as to allow a group to try and force those of us who subscribe to a binary and have life fully in order into an overly broad umbrella term that SIMPLY DOES NOT APPLY TO OUR LIFE!
I can only hope that one day the majority gets WHY those of us in the apparent minority are so pissed about our voices being ignored...
Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 04, 2011, 05:36:04 AM
And for me, as a former transsexual, this was NEVER about 'lifestyle' or even 'self-expression.' Both of those terms imply basically that one CHOOSES to present in a particular manner, and for ME, it is critical that the world understands that I had a medical condition and that I did not simply wake up one morning and decided that I wanted to present in a different manner. It WAS about LIFE in the sense of correcting a birth defect. And once the physical was corrected to match the mental, then there WAS no further issue...I could get on living as the lesbian I was intended to be.
I understand your rationale. I understand and share your feelings.
Traditionally, we have been forced, by society, to exist in a manner according to its values and standards. A few brave souls who sought to alter their presentation and the way society interacts with them, faced ridicule and persecution, if discovered.
But it is about self expression. Expressing who we are, as opposed to whatever society has dictated.
It is about lifestyle. Being free to live according to our conscience and feelings, rather than the dictates of others.
And it is about choice, however uncomfortable and horrifying the alternatives may be. It is a choice that is created by the social evolution in post reformation, human society. The same choice which encouraged a few brave women to stand up and say they are not idiots. The same choice that encouraged many people, negro, Slavs, indeed many others to stand up and say, I am a man, a free man, I demand my dignity. The same choice that encouraged ordinary people to expect opportunities based upon their ability and effort, rather than their social class. The same choice that created America and brought hundreds of thousands onto the streets to demand an end to war. The same choice that gay people took when they started their 'Coming Out of the Closet' movement.
I don't seek to undermine the intensity of your personal needs, nor the strength of your motivation. We continue to have many, within our community, for whom that intensity and strength simply isn't enough to overcome the pressures of environment. Most of us were, at a time, in that situation, as demonstrated by the need for transision in the first place.
And I will take this opportunity to defend those that don't actively seek full transision simply because we all lack the expreience and knowledge to fully understand the pressures that have created their situation.
Frankly, the claims of medical justification leave us open to the mercy of others, especially within the psychology community. We cannot prove medical justification, however much we may feel, innately, that it is there. Such 'evidence' that has been presented is open to interpertation on so many different levels.
To assume that we can ignore the revisionists, the trads, (making false claims of religious justification), the minority that seek to impose their narrow attitudes up us all. To ignore the effects these people have on parents and relatives of those struggling to come to terms with who they are. To ignore those who seek to impose economic, social, acedemic and even legal sanctions. To assume that these people have retreated is, I suggest a serious error.
Our call, our demand must be to repeat the same demand that women, slaves, lower social classes, the poor, the disabled, gays have all made over the last 400 or so years, we demand to be free.
Quote from: spacial on July 04, 2011, 09:43:10 AM
I understand your rationale. I understand and share your feelings.
[snip]
But it is about self expression. Expressing who we are, as opposed to whatever society has dictated.
It is about lifestyle. Being free to live according to our conscience and feelings, rather than the dictates of others.
The only thing that could remotely be considered 'lifestyle' is that I am a lesbian. However, I also do not subscribe to the theory that BEING a lesbian is a lifestyle or a choice. I have YET to have a single straight person who could answer the question of when they realized they wanted to sleep only with people of the opposite sex...to a person, they have always responded that they just knew. My being lesbian is no different.
Self-expression? That comes down to whether one wants to wear slacks or a skirt. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that I *AM* female. I subscribe to a binary. I don't buy into the variant theories nor are the issues of those who do directly on point with MY issues.
I am NOT 'transgendered' no matter how much people like Cristan and others the umbrella crowd insist that those of us who got on with life may be...the fact that they REFUSE to accept that some of us want NOTHING to do with the effing umbrella is just appalling because it places them in the precise position of doing what they accused "Gay, Inc." of having done for so many years- ignoring the voices of the apparent minority.
Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 04, 2011, 10:00:25 AM
The only thing that could remotely be considered 'lifestyle' is that......
I'm sorry, but I don't argue semantics.
Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 04, 2011, 05:36:04 AM
And for me, as a former transsexual, this was NEVER about 'lifestyle' or even 'self-expression.' Both of those terms imply basically that one CHOOSES to present in a particular manner, and for ME, it is critical that the world understands that I had a medical condition and that I did not simply wake up one morning and decided that I wanted to present in a different manner. It WAS about LIFE in the sense of correcting a birth defect. And once the physical was corrected to match the mental, then there WAS no further issue...
Yes, YES, YES!
Precisely!
Quote from: Zythyra on July 04, 2011, 07:25:36 AM
There are some gender variant, genderqueer, androgynes, third gender and others not mentioned who do want/need/desire/require medical treatment so as to bring their body in congruence with their internal sense of gender, and thus have similar insurance and documentation concerns. I don't think it is as simple as drawing a line and saying TS is this and TG is that. There is overlap.
Z
In some cases, but the distinction I'm making is between those who do and those who don't. There are ALWAYS exceptions (just as there are people who identify as TS but are "non-op" for whatever reason) but exceptions do not disprove the GENERAL reality that MOST GV (and ALL CD's) are not seeking the sort of results achieved by medical intervention.
Quote from: Zythyra on July 04, 2011, 07:49:04 AM
Yes. I'm sure I paid my therapist (out of pocket) enough for a nice room redecoration or two :D
Z
Indeed.
but therapy is not limited to gender issues - it is an entirely separate subject (in terms of insurance coverage)
Quote from: Tammy Hope on July 04, 2011, 04:11:08 PM
Indeed.
but therapy is not limited to gender issues - it is an entirely separate subject (in terms of insurance coverage)
Tell that to my insurance, no therapy covered for trans issues. good excuse to not cover any therapy.
Quote from: Tammy Hope on July 04, 2011, 04:11:08 PM
Indeed.
but therapy is not limited to gender issues - it is an entirely separate subject (in terms of insurance coverage)
I did around two years of therapy specifically for gender issues and to obtain the go ahead for HRT. I paid for it all out of pocket as I had/have no insurance.
Z