OUT!wear Pridewear: Stop selling anti-trans shirts and apparel
http://www.change.org/petitions/outwear-pridewear-stop-selling-anti-trans-shirts-and-apparel (http://www.change.org/petitions/outwear-pridewear-stop-selling-anti-trans-shirts-and-apparel)
OUT!Wear's website describes their products thusly:
OUT!wear™ is quality custom Pridewear and Accessories "WORN WITH PRIDE" to promote visibility, unity and self esteem amongst Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Trans-gendered persons.To promote a positive image within our community, whether bold or discreet.
Yet it's hard to "promote a positive image" when the company is selling tee-shirts and other products with anti-trans woman slogans-- in this case, a variation of the "womyn born womyn" slogan which has been used to bar trans women from attending events such as Michigan Womyn's Music Festival on the basis that trans women are "really men." This is not only disrespectful and dismissive, but also totally belies the company's stated intent. So far, the company's response has been severely lacking, as critical comments are being removed from their facebook page.
Not getting the issue, the shirts don't even say 'women born women' they say WBW - which could mean almost anything to anyone.
PFLAG has condemned their actions:
http://blog.pflag.org/2011/07/statement-on-outwear-pflag-national-and.html (http://blog.pflag.org/2011/07/statement-on-outwear-pflag-national-and.html)
Quote from: Pica Pica on July 13, 2011, 03:22:20 PM
Not getting the issue, the shirts don't even say 'women born women' they say WBW - which could mean almost anything to anyone.
It is very clear what it means....that michfest does not allow transwomen for participating...and notice the two axes symbolizing "no entry"? Its pretty bigoted.
Quote from: Annah on July 13, 2011, 08:23:37 PM
It is very clear what it means....that michfest does not allow transwomen for participating...and notice the two axes symbolizing "no entry"? Its pretty bigoted.
oh puhleeze...I've LONG seen that symbol used in that manner on MANY things lesbian.
I'd swear some people look for issues just for the sake of having something to blog about...
The KKK campaigns for "White Power" but specifically excludes Jews from their ranks. This is no different.
WBW= We're Bigoted Women >:(
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 13, 2011, 08:58:25 PM
The shirts were specifically designed for Michfest, as it says on the facebook page. Michfest has articulated a very specific policy about what WBW means for the festival. Which is that they don't want you. Reveal that you have had SRS and you'll be politely escorted off The Land.
I'm not personally sure what I think of that kind of segregation... but that is what WBW means in that context (no one who was assigned male at birth is allowed), regardless of other or prior uses.
Of course it is complicated to enforce... so it works as a kind of DADT policy. If you aren't visibly trans, you'll be let in as long as you don't disclose your history.
the WBW combined with the double labrys may be something they did specifically for MWF, but I can assure you I have seen the double labrys in that configuration MANY times across the past 30 years of my life (even had some earrings with the symbol on them for a period of time).
But quite frankly, I am also not a fan of thought police, which is exactly what protests like this are turning into- it is WORSE than PC run amuck. If an entity wishes to enforce a WBW space, I have no problem with that. I doubt I would have a problem with it even if I were asked to leave (I've never been asked to leave WBW space in my 30 years of roaming the lesbian world). A private entity should not be prohibited from enforcing whatever code they choose to enforce...
A private entity should not be prohibited from enforcing whatever code they choose to enforce.
Agreed. And people need to understand the legal definition of public and private too.
Quote from: tekla on July 13, 2011, 11:08:00 PM
A private entity should not be prohibited from enforcing whatever code they choose to enforce.
Agreed. And people need to understand the legal definition of public and private too.
FIVE MAN ELECTRICAL BAND - SIGNSAnd the sign says "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I put my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine outstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that, huh, me working for you"
[Chorus:]
Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs
->-bleeped-<-in' up the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign
And the sign says "Anybody caught trespassing will be shot on sight"
So I jumped the fence and I yelled at the house
Hey! What gives you the right!
To put up a fence and keep me out, or to keep Mother Nature in
If God was here, he'd tell it to your face, man, you're some kind of sinner
[Chorus]
Oh, say now mister, can't you read
You got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't watch, no you can't eat, you ain't supposed to be here
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" - uh!
[Solo]
And the sign says "Everybody welcome, come in, kneel down and pray"
But then they passed around a plate at the end of it all
And I didn't have a penny to pay
So I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own ->-bleeped-<-in' sign
I said, "Thank you Lord for thinking 'bout me, I'm alive and doing fine", oh
[Chorus 2x]
Yes! Some old song, called "Signs Signs", I wish we did write that one, but
We didn't - wow!
Alright
Quote from: Annah on July 13, 2011, 08:23:37 PM
It is very clear what it means....that michfest does not allow transwomen for participating...and notice the two axes symbolizing "no entry"? Its pretty bigoted.
It's only clear what it means if you are part of the cabal of people who know what the letters WBW put together means, with the axes I would have honestly assumed a sports team - but people put any old rubbish on tshirts, I'd have assumed it had no meaning. Also, never heard of a michfest, I'm gathering a sort of self-riteous lesbian chowdown, but without your description I'd have assumed a German festival of milk.
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" - uh!
"Authorized Personal: Union Crew Only" is what it says on the door to my office. With our union shield. I don't check cards, but I don't have to either. "Working Crew with Laminates Only" is what it says on the riggers stairs. I do check laminates.
If people want to have a private event (i.e. one that uses no public money, or is not held on public land) then they are free to do so. They can invite as few as they want, they can have as many as the fire marshal will let them have. They can charge whatever they want. It's their happy little world. You could have one too if you'd be willing to do the work to put it together.
You've just got your knickers in a knot because you can't just 'buy' your way in - the preferred way in America to make something exclusive. OH MY GOD THEY SAY YOU HAVE TO BE "X" TO GET IN. That's OUTRAGEOUS! But if I said, 'tickets cost $500, and that sure counts a lot of people here out because they ain't even got two nickels to rub together that manner of keeping them out never phases them.
And knowing many people in rock bands I have no problem with any group of people that elected not to give membership cards to members of the 5 Man Electrical Band. Or Tesla. Actually I know a bunch of the Tesla people, I'm in favor of keeping them out.
Let's not go overboard on the MichFest.
The reality is that in recent years out transwoman have been allowed to attend MichFest.
The fact that MichFest has never officially repudiated their past policy of "WBW" is shameful.
On the other hand, as pointed out, it is their party.
To return to the original topic, I don't believe selling "WBW" is a very cohesive move for a company which wants to be viewed as LGBT supportive.
Maybe we can get them to print a T-shirt with "Death to Cis-Trash".
They have just made a statement on there fb page!
https://www.facebook.com/notes/outwear-pridewear-accessories/an-open-letter-to-the-lgbt-community-and-its-allies-re-the-wbw-product-line/171857096212704 (https://www.facebook.com/notes/outwear-pridewear-accessories/an-open-letter-to-the-lgbt-community-and-its-allies-re-the-wbw-product-line/171857096212704)
Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 13, 2011, 08:42:56 PM
oh puhleeze...I've LONG seen that symbol used in that manner on MANY things lesbian.
I'd swear some people look for issues just for the sake of having something to blog about...
if you do not know anything about Michfest and women born women then you really shouldn't comment. I know the axes were used for a very long time.
Ann read my entire message. I incorporated it with everything else i discussed including Michfest. If you don't know about Michfest then google it because I was talking about that. Research girl!
Quote from: ninjaboi on July 14, 2011, 08:58:02 AM
They have just made a statement on there fb page!
https://www.facebook.com/notes/outwear-pridewear-accessories/an-open-letter-to-the-lgbt-community-and-its-allies-re-the-wbw-product-line/171857096212704 (https://www.facebook.com/notes/outwear-pridewear-accessories/an-open-letter-to-the-lgbt-community-and-its-allies-re-the-wbw-product-line/171857096212704)
yeah i was happy to see that!!
Quote from: Annah on July 14, 2011, 05:41:05 PM
if you do not know anything about Michfest and women born women then you really shouldn't comment. I know the axes were used for a very long time.
Ann read my entire message. I incorporated it with everything else i discussed including Michfest. If you don't know about Michfest then google it because I was talking about that. Research girl!
I know very well about Michfest...I have not attended but that is not due to their previous practices. Instead I choose to frequent the womyn's fests that were much closer to home (almost a mini-Michfest if you will).
And you will note that I never said I was ill-informed about Michfest...your attempt to make that claim is a far cry from me opining that people are making an effing mountain out of a molehill, especially as it pertains to an private entity's right to allow access to who they choose and for a company to provide services to that company. If anything, 'protests' like this will drive me to spend money on the Outwear website as a show for their appreciation of the right of free association and free enterprise...
However one chooses to see it, the WBW thing is a separatist thing. Humans do this kind of thing to keep out people they don't want, to make them feel superior to others, to express their dislike for others or sometimes just to keep the party limited to people like them.
Like many separatist actions, this particular action was intended to be divisive. I personally know one T girl who went to Michfest and who passes very well. She passed there, completely. But she told us of several events where T girls who didn't pass were treated with aggressive hostility, initiated and carried out by WBW. The WBW attitude fueled the fire making it almost dangerous for T girls who weren't totally passable. It helped develop a gang-like mentality. This happened about 4-5 years ago. I don't know if that hostile attitude still exists today, but I do know, when it did, the WBW mentality was the primary catalyst.
The only reason why some feminists get so up tight about trans women is that they believe that trans woman don't completely understand socially what it is like to struggle as a woman. Some women who are trans lived many years as a man. Yes they have been 'woman all along' but realistically they haven't been from a social point of view. Why else do trans people have to change their name and have trouble transitioning, because they're perceived as the wrong gender.
Being viewed and growing up as a woman isn't the easiest and when women have fought for so long to vote, go to school, get better jobs just to have a sexist male say something like 'that's very good of you.... for a woman' it can be very frustrating. Then explain that to a trans woman who just came out of the closet how much it sucks to have them respond with 'ahem sister' like they've been dealing with it all their life can send some woman through the roof.
These women aren't parading about having vaginas. It's not just about the fact that they are born women, they're celebrating women's strength and progression they've made that started from how they are viewed and treated in society based on the one fact that they have been born woman.
But the only thing that makes a trans woman trans is the desire to be in a woman's body. If they transition and pass very well in life then they begin to understand what it can be like as a woman, socially. If they don't pass as well then most of their discrimination is hard to differ between being clocked or not. Extreme feminists seem to hate anything that is from a 'mans world' and consider trans woman to be from there and therefore cannot relate to what their festival is really about.
I hate to be the first and probably only person to bring it up. I am not saying it is right I am just saying that's why.
Quote from: Da Monkey on July 15, 2011, 12:13:45 PM
The only reason why some feminists get so up tight about trans women is that they believe that trans woman don't completely understand socially what it is like to struggle as a woman.
And these feminists don't understand what it's like being trans. But trans women don't exclude them just because of that.
Who cares if someone doesn't understand your plight? As long as they are your advocate, that's all that should matter. I think the exclusion is just simple pettiness. These WBW extremists are bigots. The Michfest, or any other gathering they choose to create, will not cause harm to the "chosen" by letting in people who may not understand their plight but are willing to advocate for them. Most trans people are very accepting, except, maybe, inside their own ranks.
Quote from: Julie Marie on July 15, 2011, 02:09:12 PM
And these feminists don't understand what it's like being trans. But trans women don't exclude them just because of that.
Who cares if someone doesn't understand your plight? As long as they are your advocate, that's all that should matter. I think the exclusion is just simple pettiness. These WBW extremists are bigots. The Michfest, or any other gathering they choose to create, will not cause harm to the "chosen" by letting in people who may not understand their plight but are willing to advocate for them. Most trans people are very accepting, except, maybe, inside their own ranks.
preach it, Sista! :P
Quote from: Pica Pica on July 13, 2011, 03:22:20 PM
Not getting the issue, the shirts don't even say 'women born women' they say WBW - which could mean almost anything to anyone.
Really? I think it is quite obvious what they are using "WBW" to mean, especially given that they were selling them for that festival.
Quote from: tekla on July 14, 2011, 06:39:01 AM
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" - uh!
"Authorized Personal: Union Crew Only" is what it says on the door to my office.
....
You've just got your knickers in a knot because you can't just 'buy' your way in - the preferred way in America to make something exclusive.
(A) You think private work space is the same as "exclusive club space" to keep certain groups out?
(B) You seriously insulted me by implying that you know ANYTHING about whether I would buy my way in to someplace.
Can we keep this civil, please, folks.
I think the fallacy of the WBW experiential argument is that women don't have a uniform experience.
Growing into a woman is not some standardized procedure with required courses.
What about that girl who was kidnapped by that wacko and lived 10 years in a garden hut.
Would you say that she wasn't a "real" woman because she didn't have a "normal" socialization?
I was thinking about this whole WBW debate the other day and I thought about the fact that exclusion only makes your group smaller and therefore less important to society in general. Except for groups like the richest 400 people in the U.S. :P
We've had debates here where trans people want to separate from GLBs. Yet I doubt any of those people would say things like equal rights and privileges are unimportant. Practically every group has en element within it that wants those "not like us" to be excluded but this really accomplishes nothing in the areas of advancing human rights, ending discrimination and/or educating the public.
If the WBW advocates approached the trans advocates and said, "We need your help", we'd probably help but I'm sure there would first be a discussion that would include the fact their exclusion of us is a slap in the face. And when we find ourselves excluding others, we need to remember this. It's still very much open season on trans people. And there are still a very large number of people who would just as soon see us all at the bottom of the ocean. To change that we need strength we can only get in numbers.
Large drift off topic here. The question I ask is, are they going to produce something similar again,in the future? They are obviously a US only company, so maybe people over there could keep an eye out for their products to see that they have learned from this.
Karen.
I guess in my response I meant specifically womYn not just ciswomen.
If a ciswoman went around talking about how women shouldn't vote and should be back at home in their kitchens I am sure they would get kicked off as well. I know it's not the same but I mean they are a conforming group of their own.
I don't agree with it, I just posted an obvious answer as to why it's happening.
Who spends all day caring about these things? Honestly? Somewhere, like 5 people are upset that you didn't like their t-shirt design. Okay. Whatever. Allow people their freedom of speech if they want it, which includes saying things you or I don't like. Is it hypocritical? Good question! I don't think they thought about it that much, because people grind out these t-shirts like nobody's business.
Don't like it, don't buy it. How complex is that? That it offends you is no reason to stop selling it, hell if they were cleaver it almost becomes a reverse endorsement.
I accept their apology, and by the way, they have excellent customer service.