GID is currently considered a mental health condition which makes it sound like its all in our heads.
i feel like GID is and intersex condition of the brain where the brain doesnt match ones DNA. in other intersex conditions parts of the body dont match the DNA.
i has been proven that trans men have brains more similar to mens then womens and vic versa.
so i think transsexuals should be considered intersex. what do you think?
I don't disagree :)
well I just wondering,
what about the transexuals who is intersex?
That's the Harry Benjamin Syndrome theory.
Quote from: Natkat on July 26, 2011, 06:36:09 PM
well I just wondering,
what about the transexuals who is intersex?
A comorbidity of two intersex conditions
it just dosent really make sense if the DNA and gender has to be opposite then intersex transexuals must be...
uhm?? yeah??? im totally lost here... ???
Quote from: Natkat on July 26, 2011, 06:55:53 PM
it just dosent really make sense if the DNA and gender has to be opposite then intersex transexuals must be...
uhm?? yeah??? im totally lost here... ???
That's not really...it's...well...
Alright, so gender is how you see yourself. Man, woman, genderqueer, two spirit, androgyne, agender, bigender, etc. There is no "opposite" sex to gender (ex: the opposite of male isn't woman).
Sex is more so about how you physically identify your body and a whole bunch of other things. Sex (in the sense of what is assigned) is determined medically by primary sex characteristics (testicles, ovaries, uterus, penis, clitoris, etc), hormone levels and what hormone receptors put out, DNA, and probably a few other things I can't remember. So, a person's DNA isn't always related to being intersex.
What about transsexuals who wish to transition to intersex?
Also, that brain shape thing confuses me. Confuses me like this: "Transmen and cismen/Transwomen and ciswomen have similar brain-shapes." "Gay men and straight women/Gay women and straight men have similar brain shapes." Gay transpeople...?
I'm gonna go with neither agree nor disagree.
In terms of identity, everyone can call themselves what they wish.
Quote from: Silas on July 26, 2011, 09:31:31 PM
What about transsexuals who wish to transition to intersex?
I feel like that phrasing and idea is appropriating the intersex experience, however there some people who identify their bodies as neither female nor male. I feel as if sexqueer would be a good word for a person who identifies as neither male nor female, or a mix of both.
QuoteAlso, that brain shape thing confuses me. Confuses me like this: "Transmen and cismen/Transwomen and ciswomen have similar brain-shapes." "Gay men and straight women/Gay women and straight men have similar brain shapes." Gay transpeople...?
I'm gonna go with neither agree nor disagree.
In terms of identity, everyone can call themselves what they wish.
I have the same take.
Quote from: Silas on July 26, 2011, 09:31:31 PM
What about transsexuals who wish to transition to intersex?
Also, that brain shape thing confuses me. Confuses me like this: "Transmen and cismen/Transwomen and ciswomen have similar brain-shapes." "Gay men and straight women/Gay women and straight men have similar brain shapes." Gay transpeople...?
I'm gonna go with neither agree nor disagree.
In terms of identity, everyone can call themselves what they wish.
I have no idea, but I'm going to make a random guess here and guess that whoever made the first claim and whoever made the second claim where possibly looking at different parts of the brain.
again, I have no idea. I just think it would make sense that way.
I have no plans to get my head cracked open, so the shape of my brain is of no concern. I don't care if it's feminine-shaped, as that holds no real meaning to me. :)
Quote from: Nygeel on July 26, 2011, 09:48:45 PM
I feel like that phrasing and idea is appropriating the intersex experience, however there some people who identify their bodies as neither female nor male. I feel as if sexqueer would be a good word for a person who identifies as neither male nor female, or a mix of both.
I like the term sexqueer as well. But people are free to ID as they wish, and if one transitioning to a genitally-ambiguous stage wishes to ID as intersex, no one can really stop them. I rather enjoy both terms, and might use them to refer to myself at more "ambiguous times". (Although intersex seems to imply inborn.)
Quote from: JohnAlex on July 26, 2011, 10:25:42 PM
I have no idea, but I'm going to make a random guess here and guess that whoever made the first claim and whoever made the second claim where possibly looking at different parts of the brain.
again, I have no idea. I just think it would make sense that way.
That just makes me even more intrigued of the anatomy of the brain. Hm. Very strange.
There's way more intersex conditions, or rather variations as like to put it, than are currently classified. There's a heck of a lot of "ambiguous genitalia" out there but there's also a lot of chemical (hormone) balance variations. I think science has verified that chemical imbalances while in the womb can effect physical changes in the embryo. Just like hormones now are effecting physical changes in bodies. The brain being part of the physical body is of course subject to effects of chemicals as well. So at least to me, I feel like since before you were born things could have effected body, brain or both then the resulting physical body or brain "condition" that then effects your or others perception of your gender could be classed as intersex. Make sense?
Quote from: Nygeel on July 26, 2011, 07:18:26 PM
That's not really...it's...well...
Alright, so gender is how you see yourself. Man, woman, genderqueer, two spirit, androgyne, agender, bigender, etc. There is no "opposite" sex to gender (ex: the opposite of male isn't woman).
Sex is more so about how you physically identify your body and a whole bunch of other things. Sex (in the sense of what is assigned) is determined medically by primary sex characteristics (testicles, ovaries, uterus, penis, clitoris, etc), hormone levels and what hormone receptors put out, DNA, and probably a few other things I can't remember. So, a person's DNA isn't always related to being intersex.
well I get it so far the thing confussing me is,
if transexuals must be seen as intersex because there brain is opposite of there body DNA (ex a female brain with male DNA )
then a transexual + intersex person (ex a female brain, and a Female DNA) would be view as?
+ as it said before
many people have female/male brains or brain parth without being trans.
ex it said gay people use the same part of there brain to be attracted to men as straight female use..
--
for me being trans is a gender-identety, as any other identetys,
but many want it put on a "dignose list" to get help from doctors,
as always people must be "dignosed" before people even want to help them,
the world are pretty mad.
I don't see 'trans' as a gender identity. I can make no sense of it being so.
As to male brain or female brain, it is in degrees. Perhaps an overlap but still no absolute number of neurons make you male, female, gay or straight.
what you gender you identify as no matter biology is your gender-identity, so for me it makes pretty good sense LOL.
I dont want to overanalyse the brain since I dont think anything good will come out of it,
the brain is very complicated and always the body part who get the blame of everything (LOL poor buddy)
but the idea of jugdementing transpeople on there brain worries me allite,
if people find out a special thing in the brain or a special thing who make people transgender they can cure it,
or make aborting for people who are suspected of having transgender kids.
Quote from: Kvall on July 27, 2011, 04:26:21 PM
They may be free to, but it sure is ->-bleeped-<-ing rude to actual intersex people. Just because someone is "free to ID" a certain way doesn't mean they're not oppressing or hurting someone in the process. What you're suggesting is akin to a cis man saying he can identify as a trans man because he wants to have a vagina.
That's on the basis of changing bodily anatomy, anyway. If you consider transsexuality to be an intersex condition of the brain, I'm not sure if there's necessarily anything wrong or appropriative about that. There may be. I don't know. I don't like that the conversation is centered around a supposed "mismatch" with the biological essentialism implied in that, because bodies in general--not just intersex bodies--are varied upon a massive spectrum of different sexual phenotypic traits. That society ignores this disproportionately harms trans and intersex people, and while that doesn't make them the same thing, it does mean that both communities need to be sensitive to the other's bodily reality... which isn't happening very often, IME.
Culturally I think trans & intersex people face similar challenges, but often in different or even opposite ways. For example, both groups are frequently abused by the medical system--intersex people sometimes having medically unnecessary surgeries and hormones forced upon them as minors, and trans people often having medically necessary surgeries and hormones denied or delayed, especially if they are minors (of course, both could happen in the same person if they're both trans and intersex). Both are forms of restricting bodily autonomy and enforcing cissexual norms, but the differences are important. Saying trans = intersex without consulting intersex people erases that difference and as a result erases the specific challenges faced by intersex folk.
I'm with you on almost all these points.
Having been born with ambiguous genitals and being lucky enough to not have parents who opted for any surgical corrections, but not lucky enough to escape what I lightly call "medical persecution" by having hormones foisted on me at an early age, I can definitely attest to the differences in how the two groups are treated. It probably is one of the reasons why I'm so anti-medical intervention (aka "transition") for
myself as well. That aside, many intersex people have to face serious health conditions. I'm certainly not making light of any transsexual identified person who is not physically intersex. Their "condition" however is mental, not physical (even though as I said in my first response above that I do believe things that happen in the womb before birth can effect the brain as well as body and potentially cause that which becomes what is labeled transsexualism). I always felt while someone with a serious intersex condition without medical treatment might die from a direct result of the condition, transsexual people could not - unless of course they take their own lives, which unfortunately does happen if they don't get the medical treatment to make them feel more comfortable in their own bodies. Intersex people are treated like freaks by a portion of the medical world, transsexual people are treated like freaks by a portion of the psychological world. Neither of which is right imo.
Regardless of the debate, I'm in agreement with Kvall that the communities at large are not coming together on the issue. Both sides feel the persecution from all the so-called "normal" people who believe there should only be two models, etc. Unfortunately that's the society we live in. And much like there have been gay people all throughout history that have hidden that fact about them just to blend in with the "normal" society, there's been intersexual people who have hidden their body differences to blend in with "normal" society. Seriously, you think I let people in on the fact I haven't got the typical set up downstairs? It's a huge secret in my life, compounded by the fact that they also stamped an "F" on my birth certificate and I grew up feeling very much "M", but unaware there was anything I could do about it because I'm about 20 years behind most everyone else on this board, and by this point in my life am pretty much just, "eh f**k it, I'm me".
Quote from: Kvall on July 27, 2011, 06:56:16 PM
I'm not clear which part you disagree with--are you saying surgery/hormones are not medically necessary for some trans people, or just pointing out that there are cases where treatment is medically necessary for certain intersex conditions? If it was something else, then I missed it. If it's the former, medically necessary doesn't mean you'll die without it. It also includes where someone's quality of life would be unnecessarily impaired by denying or delaying treatment. Even that is a conservative definition of medical necessity; most health providers define it (paraphrasing) as simply the appropriate care for an existing medical condition, especially where the condition will not improve without such treatment. In my case, my quality of life was severely degraded by not being allowed to access hormones for four years after telling my doctor that I needed them--this was done to me because I was a minor at the time.
If you meant the latter, that may be the case. I'm not familiar with which intersex conditions require medical intervention. However, the "medically unnecessary" surgeries and hormones I was referring to were those that are administered non-consensually for no reason other than to make the person look more acceptably male or female to the doctor or parent. I was under the impression that these are more common than treatment for intersex conditions that actually require medical intervention, but I could be wrong.
Sorry, I had that post up for while before I actually finished it and originally I was going to disagree on the ID part at the beginning, but went back and reread who's post you were referring to and while I don't think it's necessarily "rude", I'm sure plenty of people with intersex conditions might see it that way.
I was saying that the medical necessity is for different reasons, but still necessity in a lot of cases - as you point out, your own quality of life was vastly improved by medical intervention. To me, that could be classed as a necessity if eventually the person is so unhappy and unable to really live their life and specific medical treatment would improve it.
I neglected to point out though that I do not think corrective surgery of a baby or anyone under the age of consent should be carried out unless it actually prevents a bodily function or something else is radically wrong (there have been cases of blocked urethras, etc. in some cases where, yeah, something had to happen in order to fix). If it's just to fit some idealized version of male or female then NFW. Conditions such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia can be serious and even life threatening in infants so yeah, with some of the intersex conditions medical intervention is a necessity. So that's what I meant by that.
Quote from: Silas on July 26, 2011, 09:31:31 PM
What about transsexuals who wish to transition to intersex?
Also, that brain shape thing confuses me. Confuses me like this: "Transmen and cismen/Transwomen and ciswomen have similar brain-shapes." "Gay men and straight women/Gay women and straight men have similar brain shapes." Gay transpeople...?
We get to confuse those that think they have all the answers ;)
I just think gender isn't as black and white as the average toilet may suggest..
For me it seams as Transexuals want to be Intersex because it seam more easy to get treatment,
but is it fair to be something just so it more easy to get help?
the brain thing is that using MRIs they can see active parts of the brain and by adding stimuli they can see the brains reaction to certain things this reaction changes between people of different gender. the brain activity of a transman and cis man are more similar then a transman as compaired to that of a cis women. suggesting that our brains are wired like that of a cis male and in our heads we are male. hopefully that better explains it.
Quote from: Natkat on July 28, 2011, 09:19:35 AM
For me it seams as Transexuals want to be Intersex because it seam more easy to get treatment,
but is it fair to be something just so it more easy to get help?
i want it to be viewed as an intersex condition so it wont be GID and so it wont be a mental health issue that is all in my head. i honestly believe that it is an intersex condition. if i wanted it to be an intersex condition to make it easier that would be wrong, i want it to be considered intersex because it isnt a mental health disorder and i think it being an intersex condition would help cis people understand and accept people currently classified as having GID.
I'm certainly not making light of any transsexual identified person who is not physically intersex. Their "condition" however is mental, not physical
I claim bull. Tis just as physical as any intersex condition and sometimes needing more drastic intervention.
Quote from: anibioman on July 28, 2011, 01:34:24 PM
i want it to be viewed as an intersex condition so it wont be GID and so it wont be a mental health issue that is all in my head. i honestly believe that it is an intersex condition. if i wanted it to be an intersex condition to make it easier that would be wrong, i want it to be considered intersex because it isnt a mental health disorder and i think it being an intersex condition would help cis people understand and accept people currently classified as having GID.
I somehow understand your point even if I don't agree that its the same as being intersex or should be.
I don't see transgender as a mental disorder either and I don't think it the right word for it.
and I feel strange about people suporting it to be a mental issue,
this really gets complicated to the point where I don't think there is actually a right answer.
like a trans intersex person.. and whoever mentioned a cis-guy identifying as ftm or whatever. it brings to mind the people who are/identify as transabled. a quick briefer is that they identity as a person with a serious medical condition even though their body suggests that for all intents and purposes they do not and never did have it. i don't think that we're supposed to talk about them on susans though it's a bit of a touchy subject...
but really, who is anyone to say how anyone else can and should identify? yes, there are points where it becomes really bizarre, but from the outside looking in, trans people ARE bizarre. we swear that we are actually a certain way that our bodies suggest is completely untrue for what we know know. all that anyone has to go on about our identity is what we tell them. so really, who are we to reject a person that SWEARS they are really one way when their body does not show it? we do that every day and expect people to accept us.
as an aside, it is legal in most cases to identify with a race or ethnicity that is not suggested by ones biological make-up. i have had two good friends who are both adopted that identify with the race of their adoptive parents rather than their biological ethnicity if you will. one of them has african-american bio-parents and appearance but she identifies as a caucasian.
i guess im just trying to say who are we really to tell someone that their identity is invalid. as for being offensive to the group of one's "target" identity, there are a lot of cissexual people who are offended by how transpeople identify despite their biology. yes, at some points it gets hard to understand and accept, but because we hope and expect that people allow us our identities, we should do the same in return. live and let live.
Quote from: LordKAT on July 28, 2011, 02:00:34 PM
I'm certainly not making light of any transsexual identified person who is not physically intersex. Their "condition" however is mental, not physical
I claim bull. Tis just as physical as any intersex condition and sometimes needing more drastic intervention.
You left off the rest of the sentence ..."(even though as I said in my first response above that I do believe things that happen in the womb before birth can effect the brain as well as body and potentially cause that which becomes what is labeled transsexualism)".
That's just my opinion though. When it comes to the medical world and what the doctors and psychologists have determined is a condition or a disorder we really don't have any say in that, do we? We could call something bull->-bleeped-<- all day long (much like I call GID a bull->-bleeped-<-, made-up-by-psychologists disorder, when I really think that it's just a simple human variation and not a mental disorder), but it doesn't do any good and people who are trans have to deal with whatever the psychologists decide to come up with in order to get the treatment they need. An intersex person with a serious medical condition (like CAH) usually does not have any trouble getting medical treatment - IF they know about the condition. Where the problems are is having early, non-consenting "corrective" surgery just because a doctor believes they're helping you fit into the proper role of society and with hidden medical records ...where they're suffering from conditions and not knowing what's really the cause of it because people tried to "protect" them from the ugly fact they were born a "freak".
So in short, no I don't think identifying as trans is a physical condition in the same way ambiguous genitalia, chromosome disorders, and other variations that are currently classified as intersex is. However, since there are so much variations I think there's certainly room to call transsexualism a form of intersex. But wanting to call yourself that to get "better" medical treatment I don't get at all. The medical world treats the two things differently. If you're intersex and you don't have any health problems because of it then you don't get treatment.
And people can "identify" as a purple porpoise for all I care.
I understood what you said and the sentence was complete enough to get the point. It didn't matter that you said something different in a former posting.
AS to if calling something bull is worthwhile, I think it is for if nothing were called out it would not change.
I do agree that surgery on a person too young to even know what is happening is wrong when it is only to comfort the caregiver, not the child. I also understand that sometimes intersex conditions aren't treated at all. My point remains the same.
kvall i definitely understand what you're saying and i'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you because the whole subject is so subjective..
but i wonder if gender is as socially constructed as race and culture, etc.
for ME PERSONALLY, i feel if i were raised in a white empty room or something i wouldn't be a boy. i would just be me. we had this discussing at my youth group a couple nights ago: "if there were no gender stereotypes at all in the world, how would you know what gender you are?" when you really think about it, while our biological sex determines bodily functions etc that we can't generally control (hormones, procreation), gender doesn't really DO anything. if a trans* person grew up without stereotypes, they probably wouldn't know their gender based on comparison (a "girl" is equally as likely as a "boy" to play with trucks or wear makeup and so on), so how would they know? (this is different than the body dysphoria trans people face. not the kind that's like "well other guys have a dick so i feel like i should have one too" but the kind that arises before you even understand genitals that there's something wrong with yours... which is why this argument can't really be won either way. as a starter, all of us know here that gender is different than sex but i venture a guess that none of us know the "why's" and "how's")
Quote from: RyanThomas on July 31, 2011, 03:36:43 AM
kvall i definitely understand what you're saying and i'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you because the whole subject is so subjective..
but i wonder if gender is as socially constructed as race and culture, etc.
for ME PERSONALLY, i feel if i were raised in a white empty room or something i wouldn't be a boy. i would just be me. we had this discussing at my youth group a couple nights ago: "if there were no gender stereotypes at all in the world, how would you know what gender you are?" when you really think about it, while our biological sex determines bodily functions etc that we can't generally control (hormones, procreation), gender doesn't really DO anything. if a trans* person grew up without stereotypes, they probably wouldn't know their gender based on comparison (a "girl" is equally as likely as a "boy" to play with trucks or wear makeup and so on), so how would they know? (this is different than the body dysphoria trans people face. not the kind that's like "well other guys have a dick so i feel like i should have one too" but the kind that arises before you even understand genitals that there's something wrong with yours... which is why this argument can't really be won either way. as a starter, all of us know here that gender is different than sex but i venture a guess that none of us know the "why's" and "how's")
I spent my early childhood living in a cabin in a rural area as the only child of a single mother. There were no boys for me to socialize with. There were no penises in our house. There's no way I could have had the opportunity to see a penis before age 4 1/2 - 5 when I started kindergarten, and I doubt it even happened that early.
2 stories from that age are very telling:
(1) I don't remember this, but when I was being toilet trained, my mother says I used to scream hysterically if I saw myself with my pants off. I'd point down and tell her that it hurt...but only if I saw it. She had to keep my lap covered with a towel so I'd stay calm enough to go.
(2) One of my earliest memories was from when I was around 4, and my mom walked in on me trying to use a toilet paper tube to pee standing up, with my clothes all wet. I was crying and told her I couldn't get it in the toilet. She told me I had to sit down and I just bawled.
Then there was one a couple of years later - I was a precocious reader, and my mom had a lot of books. I found one of the sex ed/puberty education books, and I was reading it when I was maybe 6 or 7. I got to the pages on male and female reproductive anatomy, and I looked at the male one and went running to my mother with the book open and proclaimed "see Mummy? I tried to tell you! It's supposed to be like that!" And she turned the page to the female one and showed me that was what I had and it was just like what she had and it just shocked me. It hadn't even ever occurred to me that I had 'normal' girl parts, I had this self-concept of my body as a deformed male.
It wasn't even really a social thing, I didn't see myself as all that different from her, at that point I wanted to grow up a lot like her...probably helped that she was a pretty 'masculine' very feminist woman. I thought of myself as a boy, wanted to read stories about boys, etc etc, but when I was told I was a girl, I didn't fight too hard against it. But I just thought my body was supposed to be different. That was the first moment when I actually grasped that it wasn't different.
I mentioned the Harry Benjamin Syndrome theory in my first post. Here's a link:
www.shb-info.org/hbs.html (http://www.shb-info.org/hbs.html)
Quote from: Nygeel on July 31, 2011, 07:51:57 AM
I mentioned the Harry Benjamin Syndrome theory in my first post. Here's a link:
www.shb-info.org/hbs.html (http://www.shb-info.org/hbs.html)
I have problems with the HBS people because of their politics. I think they're mostly fundamentally right on the science of transsexuality, but the homophobia and heteronormativity that pervades all their literature makes it impossible for me to support them. And it's intellectually dishonest of them to simply write off any possibility of a continuum of gender identities that includes nonbinary and transgender identities.
There's also the fact that Harry Benjamin didn't believe in FTMs or gay/lesbian transsexuals. I won't be using his name to refer to my condition any time soon.
Quote from: kyril on July 31, 2011, 05:12:38 AM
I spent my early childhood living in a cabin in a rural area as the only child of a single mother. There were no boys for me to socialize with. There were no penises in our house. There's no way I could have had the opportunity to see a penis before age 4 1/2 - 5 when I started kindergarten, and I doubt it even happened that early.
2 stories from that age are very telling:
(1) I don't remember this, but when I was being toilet trained, my mother says I used to scream hysterically if I saw myself with my pants off. I'd point down and tell her that it hurt...but only if I saw it. She had to keep my lap covered with a towel so I'd stay calm enough to go.
(2) One of my earliest memories was from when I was around 4, and my mom walked in on me trying to use a toilet paper tube to pee standing up, with my clothes all wet. I was crying and told her I couldn't get it in the toilet. She told me I had to sit down and I just bawled.
Then there was one a couple of years later - I was a precocious reader, and my mom had a lot of books. I found one of the sex ed/puberty education books, and I was reading it when I was maybe 6 or 7. I got to the pages on male and female reproductive anatomy, and I looked at the male one and went running to my mother with the book open and proclaimed "see Mummy? I tried to tell you! It's supposed to be like that!" And she turned the page to the female one and showed me that was what I had and it was just like what she had and it just shocked me. It hadn't even ever occurred to me that I had 'normal' girl parts, I had this self-concept of my body as a deformed male.
It wasn't even really a social thing, I didn't see myself as all that different from her, at that point I wanted to grow up a lot like her...probably helped that she was a pretty 'masculine' very feminist woman. I thought of myself as a boy, wanted to read stories about boys, etc etc, but when I was told I was a girl, I didn't fight too hard against it. But I just thought my body was supposed to be different. That was the first moment when I actually grasped that it wasn't different.
I grew up in an area where there weren't a lot of kids ... for the first couple years it was a mobile home park with mostly retired people before my parents bought a house in a rural area about 30 miles outside of town ... so again, not a lot of people or kids. I have similar stories about toilet training where at like age 1 1/2 I'm very upset and trying to tell my parents that something was not exactly how it should be. I'm sorry but no psychologist can brush that sort of thing under the rug for me and claim it was just "socialization" or something.