I don't know what to do. I try to convince her men aren't as bad as she's making them out to be, but she won't listen to reason. And it's pretty annoying.
Advice?
What does she hate about men exactly?
She thinks they only care about sex, they don't have feelings, they hurt girls' feelings, they don't want to talk, etc.
Quote from: ravij on August 08, 2011, 05:32:57 AM
She thinks they only care about sex, they don't have feelings, they hurt girls' feelings, they don't want to talk, etc.
You should redirect her to radical feminist chat. She would love it over there. Just make sure that she knows NOT to mention she is transsexual.
Sounds like she is projecting onto everyone else what she fears or dislikes about herself.
If you are FtM, then you are mentally a guy, and she has you as a friend. Have you pointed that out to her? That might help her adopt a more realistic attitude. If she is straight, she is going to be lonely with that mindset.
Not all men are Neanderthals, just enough to support her argument unfortunately.
Karen.
Quote from: ravij on August 08, 2011, 05:32:57 AM
She thinks they only care about sex, they don't have feelings, they hurt girls' feelings, they don't want to talk, etc.
1.- Spanish girls, would not be her best friends XD
2.- You are a MAN, why is she your friend? she hates guys :o (I ♥ sarcasm)
3.- She thinks you are a girl and it is insulting, (but she thinks she is a girl)
4.- She is more crazy than me
5.-
Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 08, 2011, 05:43:43 AM
You should redirect her to radical feminist chat. She would love it over there. Just make sure that she knows NOT to mention she is transsexual.
(I ♥ sarcasm) >:-)
"its so typical women to be sexist ;) "
I don't have an advise but I understand it to be annoying,
She thinks they only care about sex
Perhaps that's the only thing about her that's worth caring about. At least she's got that much going for her because usually when I hear that remark I'm thinking "yeah, but not with you."
Ah, let her think it, she's probably just insecure. She'll work out she's being silly once she gets a bit more confident and assured in her womanhood.
Quote from: tekla on August 08, 2011, 09:18:49 AM
She thinks they only care about sex
Perhaps that's the only thing about her that's worth caring about. At least she's got that much going for her because usually when I hear that remark I'm thinking "yeah, but not with you."
She's never been in a relationship, though. So I don't get where this is coming from.
Quote from: ravij on August 08, 2011, 10:02:50 AM
She's never been in a relationship, though. So I don't get where this is coming from.
life history taken and viewed as a composite would be my most likely guess...let's face it, having spent time around guys in the early part of my life due to birth error is not why I am lesbian, but it would also not have done a lot to make me want to speak highly of a lot of guys. I can get along with some of them, but only so long as I keep them at an arms length...
Quote from: ravij on August 08, 2011, 03:51:19 AM
I don't know what to do. I try to convince her men aren't as bad as she's making them out to be, but she won't listen to reason. And it's pretty annoying.
Advice?
There's one website that has so many MTF bashing men that I left because it made me sick to my stomach. They have no issues talking about girls but if anyone brings up their boyfriend or male friend they start to fulfill any type of horribly negative lesbian stereotype. It is like because they identify as a lesbian they feel that they should badmouth men in most vile ways.
My best advice to you is to tell her in a sternful manner that "you need to stop bashing men in front of me. I find it offensive and I will not tolerate it." If her prejudices are more important than her friendship with you then you will find out. If she values her friendship with you, she will refrain from the male oriented gender bashing in front of you.
Don't worry about being stern. I had to do it with many MTF friends and they either respect where I am coming from or they look for friends elsewhere. I do not tolerate hate in any form.....including men bashing. It's immature.
If you look around the internet, or anywhere really, you'll actually notice that this is put out as a "norm".
It's made to look like it's perfectly fine to trash talk, hate on, and generally abuse men because they're "all pigs/stupid/whores/etc."
If you've got a tumblr, go follow some people, and count down how long it takes to get one of those "All boys are meanies who break princesses' hearts" things.
Honestly, I'd either rip her a new one, tell her how incorrect she is and how much it pissed me off, or I'd start distancing myself from her. You don't need to be around someone who's (somewhat indirectly) attacking you as a person.
Wow .... I was just coming to this board to post about this very thing and I see it's being discussed.
My story, I went out last weekend to Indy for a conference with some friend. Mostly male but a woman named ... offered to put us up. Since hotel prices are insane we took her up on it. When I met her my first impression that she was MTF stealth. Which is not a bad thing in anyway at all. However it was fairly obvious since I know what to look for. Her hands being clearly bigger than average, her overall form, structure and height being quite large, plus her hair was MTF hair which you probably know what I mean. She didn't do anything with her hair besides wash it and I really don't think she wore make-up. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. The fact that she was extremely rude to me from the moment I met her helped make my overall impression of her sour.
She was so insulting of men; all men even those the ones staying with her. She would go on and on how they are all about sex and how disgusting that is. Repeatedly she called me 'a punk ass kid' despite my polite request she not do that. If I made any sort of mistake, no matter how small such as forgetting a piece of information I should know, she would play the looney tunes song. Musically stating that I was an idiot and not to be taken seriously. Everyone else would get quiet when she did this but she continued to think it was hysterical.
I was not the only one she did this to. All of the guys got this treatment in different ways. Which everyone tried to handle diplomatically but it was difficult. This was not just ribbing this was all out insulting. However we were sitting ducks because we had an agreement to stay with her.
Then she would talk up women like they were the perfect creatures straight from above. She would go on and on about how women are strong and smart and so much better than men. Behind every good man there is a much better woman sort of thing. I would point out that she is 43, never married, single and seemingly staying that way. None of those are bad things. I also know she was a virgin because she said the only way 'she would give it away' was after a diamond ring. Which is so because better than men because men will do it with a tree on the side of the road.
By the end of the trip I was so over all of it. She tried to say goodbye to me but I just curtly said I would send her a check for the stay. Which was rude and abrupt, yes, but after she was so blatantly disrespectful of me I wasn't going to act like we were friends. I could of given her, her own theme song and it would have just as vicious. Pink Elephants was what came to mind for so many reasons. However I'm a decent person and a gentleman and don't play like that. Besides I didn't want to make a miserable situation worse. I was suppose to be on vacation.
It was just insane though. The guys themselves were wonderful and I had a great time with them. Yes there was some teasing but only male on male ribbing which I find enjoyable. ("Me: So I was on crash diet ..." Him: "Why? Were you trying to fit into your wedding dress?" Me: "It was a bikini actually. Hold on I'll send you some pictures." Him: "Ah!! ... No thank you!!!")
She made the trip much less enjoyable than it should have been. I'm sorry that was her attitude. It was a shock to tell you the truth.
I completely agree with the idea that she is simply projecting her insecurities and what she doesn't like about herself on the rest of the world. And they say that there's no such thing as "female privilege".... just count how many women are "allowed" to openly bash men on account of being male and get away with it. One man makes a "woman" joke and the entire world jumps down his throat.
@people above Next time she does it I'm definitely going to confront her about it.
@Squirrel That's horrible. I'm sorry that happened to you. :-\
People usually hurt for a reason and it's sad but let's face it SOME men and SOME women whether cis or trans just have real horrible experiences with the opposite sex. The only thing 'typical' is when people get hurt they hold grudges and can become bitter and thats f'n sad but its also life. So ya, I can say 'Hey! I'm a nice guy ' and get all angry with her but the truth is, there are some not so nice guys out there too so maybe she has a reason to be defensive and bitter.
Same deal with men too bitter nelly's towards women.
Quote from: N.Chaos on August 08, 2011, 11:27:20 AM
If you look around the internet, or anywhere really, you'll actually notice that this is put out as a "norm".
It's made to look like it's perfectly fine to trash talk, hate on, and generally abuse men because they're "all pigs/stupid/whores/etc."
If you've got a tumblr, go follow some people, and count down how long it takes to get one of those "All boys are meanies who break princesses' hearts" things.
Honestly, I'd either rip her a new one, tell her how incorrect she is and how much it pissed me off, or I'd start distancing myself from her. You don't need to be around someone who's (somewhat indirectly) attacking you as a person.
Thing is the BS goes both ways in such large amounts there are no words to describe it. Heck, I've seen you guys get a thread going before about not understanding women and most of what was in it? Was just stereotypical BS... This is a bloody norm for the most part. Not saying it is right or wrong...
That just is the way it is and she may have her own issues as well with men. I mean if I judged men by the ones met in my early days, the locker room chat, bathroom chat, and general conversation? I'd think just like her in every way. There is a peaceful way to approach this as noted and that action should be taken first before going to the beep off route. You might even help her see that not all men are the BS she has encountered in her life.
removed due to the unneeded rudeness
I believe you are pathetic.
Why are you so childish in all of your posts?
removed
kittycatzoe: this isn't an issue of us not respecting your right to have an opinion (as infuriating as that opinion may be). it's an issue of how your blatant sexism and disrespect for men is affecting this online community. recently, you've been making several insensitive threads and posts in the FTM forum and i really don't appreciate it. i can't speak for others, but i assume they feel the same. again, while you have a right to your own ideas on men, you don't have a right to make others feel unsafe and uncomfortable with that opinion on a SUPPORT FORUM. likewise, i have a right to feel a certain way about women, but if i had a horrible opinion on them, what good is going to the MTF forum and making insensitive posts? it makes me look like an ass with nothing better to do than insult people online because of my own insecurities.
Quote from: RyanThomas on August 08, 2011, 02:39:24 PM
kittycatzoe: this isn't an issue of us not respecting your right to have an opinion (as infuriating as that opinion may be). it's an issue of how your blatant sexism and disrespect for men is affecting this online community. recently, you've been making several insensitive threads and posts in the FTM forum and i really don't appreciate it. i can't speak for others, but i assume they feel the same. again, while you have a right to your own ideas on men, you don't have a right to make others feel unsafe and uncomfortable with that opinion on a SUPPORT FORUM. likewise, i have a right to feel a certain way about women, but if i had a horrible opinion on them, what good is going to the MTF forum and making insensitive posts? it makes me look like an ass with nothing better to do than insult people online because of my own insecurities.
Word.
Quote from: RyanThomas on August 08, 2011, 02:39:24 PM
kittycatzoe: this isn't an issue of us not respecting your right to have an opinion (as infuriating as that opinion may be). it's an issue of how your blatant sexism and disrespect for men is affecting this online community. recently, you've been making several insensitive threads and posts in the FTM forum and i really don't appreciate it. i can't speak for others, but i assume they feel the same. again, while you have a right to your own ideas on men, you don't have a right to make others feel unsafe and uncomfortable with that opinion on a SUPPORT FORUM. likewise, i have a right to feel a certain way about women, but if i had a horrible opinion on them, what good is going to the MTF forum and making insensitive posts? it makes me look like an ass with nothing better to do than insult people online because of my own insecurities.
I understand. Sorry i will happily remove my post and please pm any threads name and i will immediately delete
Quote from: Korlee on August 08, 2011, 02:07:56 PM
Thing is the BS goes both ways in large amounts there are no words to describe it. Heck, I've seen you guys get a thread going before about not understanding women and most of what was in it? Was just stereotypical BS... This is a bloody norm for the most part. Not saying it is right or wrong...
That just is the way it is and she may have her own issues as well with men. I mean if I judged men by the ones met in my early days, the locker room chat, bathroom chat, and general conversation? I'd think just like her in every way. There is a peaceful way to approach this as noted and that action should be taken first before going to the beep off route. You might even help her see that not all men are the BS she has encountered in her life.
I agree. In my experience this is completely normal and it definitely goes both ways.
Quote from: Sharky on August 08, 2011, 03:13:26 PM
I agree. In my experience this is completely normal and it definitely goes both ways.
She doesn't understand that though. I guess she has to experience it herself.
Men have always felt threatened by me, lol. It's kind of funny because I'm small and weak. For me, I've been taught things by men that have made me think very differently.
I have never conformed to stereotypes. I've always been real. I think conforming to stereotypes is a school thing. People want to fit in. They care about what other people think of them. That stuff has always been stupid to me.
Quote from: CB on August 08, 2011, 03:34:14 PM
I think a lot of women feel very threatened by men. Personally, I've had terrible male role models in my life, men who have taught me untrue things. I learned from them that a man does whatever he wants, no matter who it hurts. A man doesn't need to consider his wife or children's feelings, because he is the head. "boys will be boys" - men are just more sexual and that's the way it is. Men are just more aggressive and that is the way it is. I was held to a high standard of moral conduct in my family, the other 4 boys, not so much. Men deserve respect, no matter how they behave, because that is our wont.
I know a man does not have to be like this, now. But a lot of girls grow up learning that men are an alien species, and a very hostile one at that. I'm not justifying hateful things, nor do I agree with these viewpoints I'm just offering an explanation.
It makes me angry now. I feel like this hurts women and children, but it also hurts the men who believe they need to be these rigid, horrible creatures to be "real" men. I fight it all the time - as I will be transitioning, sometimes I feel the need to be more masculine and to adhere to these traditional stereotypes. It tears me up, because I am a gentle person, and an intellectual person. A complex person with feelings and desires, much like anyone else. I don't want to hide it from the ones I love, nor do I want to hurt them like the men in my family hurt me.
not to mention women learn to be awared of guys in another way than guys do,
Quote from: ravij on August 08, 2011, 03:49:30 PM
Men have always felt threatened by me, lol. It's kind of funny because I'm small and weak. For me, I've been taught things by men that have made me think very differently.
I have never conformed to stereotypes. I've always been real. I think conforming to stereotypes is a school thing. People want to fit in. They care about what other people think of them. That stuff has always been stupid to me.
Have you ever heard that song by Bowling for Soup -High School Never Ends-? That song is a little more like reality right there in truth sadly. The idea of reaching adulthood and entering into a more mature world is just a fantasy.
I have issues with men. I will be honest when I am dealing with a man he already has one strike against him for being a man. It might not be fair or right but it has served me well in the past to always be wary around guys.
Now I do have some male friends and indeed there are 2 men who are closer to me than anyone who hasn't slept with me can get as a general rule. But they did not get that trust fast.
Quote from: Korlee on August 08, 2011, 06:20:59 PM
Have you ever heard that song by Bowling for Soup -High School Never Ends-? That song is a little more like reality right there in truth sadly. The idea of reaching adulthood and entering into a more mature world is just a fantasy.
I guess I'm different from everybody else.
Quote from: cynthialee on August 08, 2011, 06:28:12 PM
I have issues with men. I will be honest when I am dealing with a man he already has one strike against him for being a man. It might not be fair or right but it has served me well in the past to always be wary around guys.
Now I do have some male friends and indeed there are 2 men who are closer to me than anyone who hasn't slept with me can get as a general rule. But they did not get that trust fast.
You should be wary around everybody.
Quote from: ravij on August 08, 2011, 06:33:53 PM
You should be wary around everybody.
Agreed. You shouldn't be wary with just men. It should be with everyone. Focusing one strike on all men you meet really isn't fair. That's like someone saying "if you're black then that's one strike against you" or "if you're a Jew, that's one strike against you." I was verbally attacked on my Facebook yesterday because a trans girl realized I was Jew by blood. She said some pretty vile things. After writing her a private dissertation on how messed up she made herself out to look in front of all my other friends, I promptly de friended her and blocked her. in her mind, the Jews were the woes of her life. She blamed the Jews for the reason why she was financially struggling....this gives no excuse for her to attack or distrust a Jew. Likewise, the same formula follows with gender prejudice.
Gender focused attacks or distrust to me is in the same field of those who have racial attacks or distrust.
If people are having an issue with men because of whatever reasons in their life, then I am hoping those people are working hard to dismiss these unhealthy stereotypes. For example, the women in my life growing up were really bad role models but I had to learn that these were specific people that had no relation to the female gender. they were just a holes....not because they were female but because they were just a holes by their actions.
I am sure no one likes it whenever people judge us poorly because we are trans; because that is exactly what we are doing when we judge a man before seeing their actions.
I am ashamed to say that at one point (as an MtF myself), I was something similar to those bashing men.
So I understand personally why some MtFs like to bash men. I think it has something to do with the guys that were around me as I grew up. So maybe it's the same with others who like to bash men. If most men you know are jerks, then it's hard not to think that most men are jerks. (It's like growing up in a radical stronghold somewhere in the Middle East... if I grew up there I probably would think all Americans were evil! And similarly many Americans think Muslims = terrorists...)
I have since met some nice guys and I completely don't have anything against men any more. Especially since after I began living full-time, since it seems men act nicer to women. So if anyone here feels they have issues with men, trust me, actually a lot of them aren't jerks :)
I would point out that she is 43, never married, single and seemingly staying that way... I also know she was a virgin because she said the only way 'she would give it away' was after a diamond ring.
Proving my point that people who think that men only want sex out of them aren't even good for that.
if I grew up there I probably would think all Americans were evil
If you grew up there you'd have a more sophisticated notion of international politics, and like a lot of other people in the world, they don't hate Americans, they hate the American Government (for good reason), and make a pretty clear distinction between the two.
You should be wary around everybody.
Paranoid much? Normal girls, who grow up in a positive social environment and are well-adjusted, learn long before they even become women that men are not all that hard to handle, and, as a matter of fact, they have a special power over men that they don't have over most other girls.
Well, in my town, there's not many people you can actually trust. I've learned that the hard way... many times.
Quote from: tekla on August 09, 2011, 12:58:42 AM
if I grew up there I probably would think all Americans were evil
If you grew up there you'd have a more sophisticated notion of international politics, and like a lot of other people in the world, they don't hate Americans, they hate the American Government (for good reason), and make a pretty clear distinction between the two.
I specifically referred to a radical stronghold... if you grew up with the Taliban for example, I'm not sure you can avoid hating all Americans! Do they kill only the Americans representing the US government?
Quote from: apple pie on August 09, 2011, 04:13:08 AM
I specifically referred to a radical stronghold... if you grew up with the Taliban for example, I'm not sure you can avoid hating all Americans! Do they kill only the Americans representing the US government?
correct. Last time I checked, there was quite a few civilian causalities on 9/11
It could be a bit more twisted yet.
I used to be chauvinistic and derogatory to FEMALES... it was rubbed into my face and rightfully so after transitioning.
Now looki here! this chauvi turned out to be woman!!! Hey!
In my case it "helped" me to cope in some twisted way with my condition. It is NOT that unusual as it sounds by the way. Mea culpa!
How this could apply to your friend I'm not sure but we can get jolly twisted in our defenses at times.
Maybe she'd LOVE to get a man and can't, so she decides to bash them. Treating them with contempt because she can't get one?
Not the first time I'd have heard of that...
Tricky, eh
Axelle
i see how this men-bashing mechanism might work.
first of all, it's based on stereotypes. stereotypes not neccessarily are the bad thing: they helped us and our ancestors stay safe. for example, "all black and yellow-striped bugs are dangerous". of course not. there are more bugs pretending to be wasps that can't sting and bite at all. but if you have no certain knowledge, avoiding them all is kind of smart.
speaking about men, there really is a kind, that are brought up to be macho - insensitive, sexist and everything your friend bashes. my bet would be was either brought up by one, or was forced to be one, and/or her female relatives were strongly victimised. when her first experience shows those scary macho men, all later met male figures can be perceived as dangerous. in my country, there is a saying "attack is the best defense". maybe this is what's happening?
if you are a friend, you can do better than be offended - you can let her open up and listen why is this. (encourage getting help would be an option)
because this bashing person is doomed to be unhappy, unless she gets some help.
(i hope you understand all this, english is not my 1st language)
Quote from: Thrall on August 09, 2011, 07:22:36 AM
if you are a friend, you can do better than be offended - you can let her open up and listen why is this. (encourage getting help would be an option)
If his MTF friend is anything like some of the MTF male bashers i have known, you can let them open up and listen as to why this is and that will give the ample ammunition to the point where they will just go on to infinity without stopping because some actually enjoy talking about it. Ive seen girls in chat rooms bash men for hours without a break.
There comes a point when you tell the friend to just stop it lol.
Last time I checked, the Taliban and OBL were groups and people that really only existed because the US Government pretty much created them, funded them, and armed them.
Quote from: tekla on August 09, 2011, 10:03:50 AM
Last time I checked, the Taliban and OBL were groups and people that really only existed because the US Government pretty much created them, funded them, and armed them.
regardless, they still kill American Civilians. If they just wanted to get the American Government but has nothing against the American people, they would have bombed only embassies, war structures, etc.....not civilian buildings.
On December 7, 1941 The Japanese attacked a military base and avoided civilian buildings. That is an example of one Government not liking another but has nothing against its' peoples. Which is why I morally object to America dropping nuclear bombs on civilians in WW2. It showed extreme prejudice on the entire Japanese nation versus the institution. However, this is a debate that will spiral this thread totally off topic.
Quote from: Annah on August 09, 2011, 09:24:17 AM
If his MTF friend is anything like some of the MTF male bashers i have known, you can let them open up and listen as to why this is and that will give the ample ammunition to the point where they will just go on to infinity without stopping because some actually enjoy talking about it. Ive seen girls in chat rooms bash men for hours without a break.
There comes a point when you tell the friend to just stop it lol.
i agree with you, but still, listening WHY she bashes men =/= listing TO her bashing men. strangers on the internet can't influence much. but close friends really do.
She might feel that bashing men is what "women do" and is doing this to -fit her new role-? I see a lot of TG's who like start knitting etc to try to be a woman...
Quote from: Stephe on August 09, 2011, 11:41:52 AM
She might feel that bashing men is what "women do" and is doing this to -fit her new role-? I see a lot of TG's who like start knitting etc to try to be a woman...
well she won't get any guys, by then,
having a girl putting your down is as unattrative as if a guy only taking down on a women.
--
I would guess there pretty much 2 kind of serious bashing people.
someone who got bad experience/afraid of these
or some who dosent know better and are kinda ignorant or having misbeliaves.
I would say, yeah somethimes I also hate guys, (and girls)^^ I am not MTF but I am very young looking, so some men tend to be around me with perv mind because of that. I know many MTF have had simular issues and start hating these guys.
but of corse I also had guys who are sweet and cool.
your mtf friend just have to find someone. sadly it wont happent if she bach them before letting to know them, so she should give some a chance.. otherwise it seams pretty imposible.