Interesting conversation I had at work today. But first a small backstory. I just got a new job at Disney World, I am getting acquainted with the people there. I work out on "stage", basically just selling merchandise at one of the stores. Well, it turns out there's another, much older, transwoman that works near me. She seems happy, and I'm very happy for her; but one of my coworkers didn't seem so happy for her.
She (my coworker) approached me and said, "So do you know about ... 'it'?". I was like, Nope. Then she pointed at the older transwoman. She proceeded to explain to me how "it" was hired on as male but gradually changed to female, and how it isn't clear whether or not "it" had "it's" surgery. Also how "it" is required to use the bathroom in the managers trailer, because "it" started using whichever bathroom "it" pleased. I am not exaggerating this one bit, she used the term "it" every chance she got.
I was deeply saddened by this, but at the same time sort of happy. Sad because my sister is viewed so negatively, and saddened even further that if I ever get clocked, that I will be equally shunned. Although I couldn't help but feel a little bit flattered that I pass well enough for her to blab that insensitive nonsense at me.
After my shift, I tried to get a hold of one of the managers that I trust; but I was unable to. I'll go into work early tomorrow and try to talk to him about it. The whole thing really bothered me.
That's utterly revolting! :( I'm sorry that both her and you are in such a position. Hope your manager deals with this situation quickly and efficiently!
Seriously, I think I'd rather be called "he" than "it." I blame a lack of education. Well at least this is a good litmus test for your passing, which obviously you passed. Hearing this sort of thing really saddens me. Do people seriously think transition is some fetish; that we go through all this for ->-bleeped-<-s and giggles? It's that sort of mentality that keeps transition expenses from being covered by the majority of medical insurance. I do hope you sort this out, let us know how it goes.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on August 14, 2011, 09:43:33 PM
Do people seriously think transition is some fetish; that we go through all this for ->-bleeped-<-s and giggles?
Sadly, yes. Many but not all of the people I work with feel this way.
Sadly, my dad does the same thing. :( Either "he" or "it" but never "she." The worst thing is he will switch if he learns someone he is talking about is trans. As if the fact he couldn't tell beforehand has no bearing on the situation. I think some people are just beyond help, and sadly at least one of them is in my immediate family.
Ignorance can be both scary and sad.
I feel terrible about it. She isn't a bad person. She is easy to talk to, easy to get along with, but sadly she is also miseducated. I do not want to overtly champion any cause, because that will out me when I am happily living stealth. But I also don't necessarily want her to get in trouble, because she really isn't a bad person.
So I'm stuck at a crossroads.
1: I can confide in her that I'm trans and potentially out myself to the entire area.
2: I can agree and laugh along side her, cementing my stealth status. (Not ever going to happen).
3: I can respectfully disagree with her views, giving her reason to suspect why I disagree with her.
4: I can report her anonymously to HR getting her in trouble.
1 is very scary. 2 is NEVER going to happen. 3 is a possibility, but it doesn't seem like enough. 4, well I don't see myself doing 4 right away without pursuing some other avenues.
Option 1 sounds like a bad idea Sam. Option 2 means you are a hypocrite. Option 3 doesn't gives her any reason to suspect of you, more even so if you find other coworkers who are friends with that transperson and disagree with her views.
Option 4 is a possibility. I don't think prejudice equals lack of education.
Quote from: AmySmiles on August 14, 2011, 10:16:23 PM
Sadly, my dad does the same thing. :( Either "he" or "it" but never "she." The worst thing is he will switch if he learns someone he is talking about is trans. As if the fact he couldn't tell beforehand has no bearing on the situation. I think some people are just beyond help, and sadly at least one of them is in my immediate family.
Yeah i know what you mean. My family did the same thing to me back when i attempted transition the first time, they either referred to me as "it" or "crazy" and thought i was just having a mental breakdown. They would say this sort of thing was "unnatural" and against god etc. I was still young (20) at the time so the thought of losing my family really scared me and to be honest i didn't have many friends to go to for support, and losing my job made things worse so i decided to stop transition.
Point being: it's because of ignorance like this gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transgender people go their whole lives afraid to be who they really are and that is sad. Now that society is more open and understanding to gay & lesbian individuals i think it's time that the public is better educated on ->-bleeped-<-. :(
option 4 is the best way to deal with this and to keep your job
there is no way you are the first person she has talked to about the other trans woman
Like others said, educating people is an excellent way for people to overcome their prejudices.
To be honest, I think it's neither nice nor fair to immediately report the co-worker on the comment. It's as if you're punished about something you don't even know about. I like to remember that most of the world still knows next to nothing about transgender people, and would give them a chance first.
I always seem to think up extreme examples but, would you want to be put in prison because you drove a car in Saudi Arabia and you didn't know that it's illegal for women to drive there?
So I strongly disagree with option 4 as a first action, though I think it may be considered at a later stage. Think about it from the other person's point of view first :) There's also the possibility that she was using "it" only because she didn't feel either "he" or "she" sounded right, instead of because of the negative implications of "it"... something to consider...
I also think of a 'soft' approach to appeal to that girls humanity --- she may just get the point?
Often you will find this sort of attitude is a cover-up of the 'fear of the unknown'.
Just try approach her from a warm caring attitude to be more accepting of others, rather then shun them.
If she stays 'hard-assed' with no inclination to see that point, preferring to be derogatory, THEN I suggest to report her.
Axelle
Quote from: Axélle on August 15, 2011, 12:27:44 AM
I also think of a 'soft' approach to appeal to that girls humanity --- she may just get the point?
Often you will find this sort of attitude is a cover-up of the 'fear of the unknown'.
Just try approach her from a warm caring attitude to be more accepting of others, rather then shun them.
If she stays 'hard-assed' with no inclination to see that point, preferring to be derogatory, THEN I suggest to report her.
Axelle
This and...
No doubt that she will be back around with more "High School" level dribble :-\ Sounds like the type
Perhaps discussing it in a non-confrontational manner could be option 5
"I understand that there are unique individuals working here, that was explained to me upon hire... I definitely am not going to breach Co. policy and I feel no desire to be disrespectful to other employees"
This doesn't out you and keeps you on the team players list... Plus it plants the seed that going against Co. policy is not in her best interest...If that doesn't shut down the smack talking Trollop, option 4 is still available
I did have something similar that I reported previously. One of my employees started to talk about the bald headed its in nighties. I question her and she was referring to people in the SRS unit. As her boss I was able to give her a reasonably strident talk about the Hospitals policy on gender discrimination. Her excuse was that she didn't think transgendered people were covered as they didn't know what gender they were.
Geez, find a wall, bash head against it.
Cindy
I would report her to HR with a very long letter about my disgust that type of attitude is permitted (and request my name not be mentioned if the issue is brought to her).
How could a trans person sit by and watch as another trans person is being subject to things like this? No one is asking you to go to extremes and sacrifice your own safety, but you can do a LOT without it coming to that.
If we don't stick up for eachother, who will? If we EVER want discrimination to end, we have to stand together... ALL of us (not just the ones who don't pass and don't have a choice).
PS, I really hate stealth :P
I dont think reporting her would be the first step.
I prefer option 3, however you must keep your cool, and educate her with facts.
If after that she still insists on being ignorant, politely tell her to take her bigotry elsewhere, likewise I would then tell mgmt.
Congrats on the job at disney world. Your hair is beautiful in your new profile pic :-)
In my opinion, going right to mgmt without addressing it on a human level face to face, is exactly the kind of sentiment that allows this sort of discrimination to persist. Her views need to be challenged. Not challenged by an authoritative institution (the job), but rather a regular, whimsical, intelligent human being that she sees as her equal. You are there for a reason Samantha, these kind of situations don't happen on accident. Its called dharma, and yours is playing out before you.
I work as a man, only dressing part time, and I'm not out, so it's different, but when Chrissy Pollis was attacked, I told my boss that a transgendered woman had been beaten at a McDonalds. He said "A he-she?" I said "No, a transgendered woman." This was followed by a long uncomfortable silence, but I couldn't just let it pass. My two cents worth.
Quote from: Rabbit on August 15, 2011, 04:15:35 AM
I would report her to HR with a very long letter about my disgust that type of attitude is permitted (and request my name not be mentioned if the issue is brought to her).
Such letters are often available in disciplinary proceedings as well as litigation. Anonymity is rarely a protectable interest in such instances...
QuoteIf we don't stick up for eachother, who will? If we EVER want discrimination to end, we have to stand together... ALL of us (not just the ones who don't pass and don't have a choice).
PS, I really hate stealth :P
I didn't sign on for a cause all those years ago nor have I had cause to wish I had someone coming to my rescue. Some of us are quite content to go on living life, especially when that life has been free of 'discrimination.'
Thank you everyone for your input. I'm still torn between talking to a manager and approaching her myself.
Quote from: Rabbit on August 15, 2011, 04:15:35 AM
PS, I really hate stealth :P
A lot of people have problems with the idea of stealth. I'm not stealth everywhere, just in my professional life; it avoids biases and prejudices, like what I've explained in my first post.
But it's not my, nor anyone's obligation to champion the cause for transgender rights and non-discrimination. Once you do, it's full time, you can never really go stealth again. I never chose to be transsexual, I was born with a birth defect that made people erroneously assume that I am male. I simply want to move forward and live my life the way I would have, had I been born normal.
Bring the bitch down a notch or two. No one deserves to be called "it". Period.
And ignorance is no excuse.
Either tell her, directly, that was she said was hateful, ignorant and wrong, and that you will go directly to HR if she does it again, or just got to HR and let them know the situation. I can't imagine wanting to work around someone who shows that much discontent, that little of respect, to another human.
Generally speaking, they're (HR) going to want to know if you approached her first to express your feelings about what she'd said. Not that you necessarily have to, but they're going to at least want to know why you didn't. HR is there to help you, but if you're less then honest about why it offended you, there's a limit to what they can do to help you.
I'd let it go. Now you know what kind of person she is. If she keeps it up, tell her it offends you, you don't have to offer an explaination and I doubt she's going to assume anything. If it doesn't stop, report her to her/your supervisor and let them handle it (often times just threatening this step is enough to get them to stop).
Fair warning, it's completely within your rights to complain over every perceived injustice (no matter how slight), however, it certainly won't make you all that appealing to your superiors. You have the right to complain and they have the right to keep you as an "entry level" employee for the duration of your career with them. In other words, it may serve you best to develop a thick(er) skin.
Now that I think about it, has anyone suggested you approach the employee that these comments were directed at and let her "handle it"?
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on August 14, 2011, 09:43:33 PM
Seriously, I think I'd rather be called "he" than "it." I blame a lack of education.
I could believe lack of education for "he." But "it" is total meanness.
Quote from: Samantharz on August 15, 2011, 09:16:15 AM
Thank you everyone for your input. I'm still torn between talking to a manager and approaching her myself.
I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but you are already on a no-win trajectory. You should have confronted her immediately when it happened. Not outed yourself, but told her that it was a mean-spirited thing to say about another human being. That could have put an end to it. But because you let it go by, the next step, whichever you choose it to be, will be an escalation. Don't expect it to end well.
Quote from: regan on August 15, 2011, 12:25:07 PM
Generally speaking, they're (HR) going to want to know if you approached her first to express your feelings about what she'd said. Not that you necessarily have to, but they're going to at least want to know why you didn't. HR is there to help you, but if you're less then honest about why it offended you, there's a limit to what they can do to help you.
Yes and no...there is not an obligation in a sexual harassment/EEO issue to directly confront the offender. And one need not be the direct target in order for there to be a cognizable claim. Whether it rises to the level of a formal finding that the conduct truly creates a hostile work environment is entirely a fact-driven question...
Of course the other issue with third-party harassment claims is that it creates the setting by which the reporting party then becomes known as a troublemaker in the eyes of management (since it IS information that would generally be shared with those making the decisions).
QuoteFair warning, it's completely within your rights to complain over every perceived injustice (no matter how slight), however, it certainly won't make you all that appealing to your superiors. You have the right to complain and they have the right to keep you as an "entry level" employee for the duration of your career with them. In other words, it may serve you best to develop a thick(er) skin.
or worse...the company decides during a probationary period that the company and new employee are simply 'not working out.'
EEO issues are NEVER a one-size-fits-all sort of thing. The last one I worked with a client on was an outcropping of the employee disciplinary matter for which we had been retained to represent them on...and when I broached the ADA component to why the order was invalid, the hearing was recessed and it was about six or eight months before we were back on record. In the meantime, we had drafted a seven-page Complaint to ensure compliance with agency policy. We won the disciplinary hearing when all was said and done but the employee/client was one of four in that Section who was RIF'ed during some State cutbacks earlier this year (and not long after the hearing).
Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 15, 2011, 06:42:04 AM
Such letters are often available in disciplinary proceedings as well as litigation. Anonymity is rarely a protectable interest in such instances...
I didn't sign on for a cause all those years ago nor have I had cause to wish I had someone coming to my rescue. Some of us are quite content to go on living life, especially when that life has been free of 'discrimination.'
well lucky you and me but i don't care that i passed as i did when i camped out at the US capital in 2002 during the senate confirmation hearings on E.N.D.A. and why trans people were not included and the republican staffers came out to talk to me and asked me why was i protesting for "those people", i said BECAUSE I AM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.. They looked at me and sighed
Look, so you pass, you may not one day or your past may come out and there will be a time that karma knocks you down for not doing the right thing, which is AT LEAST STICKING UP FOR THE SISTER AND SUPPORTING HER AND SAYING WELL ITS NO DIFFERENT THAN BEING GAY OR LESBIAN OR BLACK ETC ETC discrimination is discrimination
sheesh some passing people have no integrity
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on August 15, 2011, 01:45:06 PM
Look, so you pass, you may not one day or your past may come out and there will be a time that karma knocks you down for not doing the right thing, which is AT LEAST STICKING UP FOR THE SISTER AND SUPPORTING HER AND SAYING WELL ITS NO DIFFERENT THAN BEING GAY OR LESBIAN OR BLACK ETC ETC discrimination is discrimination
sheesh some passing people have no integrity
I guess it takes integrity to take comments out of context. What you quoted was in response to someone else having posted that they hate stealth. Some of us PREFER stealth. That is OUR choice to make. Having been born transsexual and seeking out medical intervention to correct the condition is simply a stage of life for some of us, not an identity that we choose to wear like a sign. I'm not an effing cause nor does integrity require that I go to the aid of any cause simply because someone might have had the same defect of birth that I had.
But hey, thanks for reminding me of yet another reason I chose to walk off into the sunset all those years ago...
Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 15, 2011, 02:01:16 PM
But hey, thanks for reminding me of yet another reason I chose to walk off into the sunset all those years ago...
I (will) choose to support improved access to transgender specific health care needs from pre-transition (ie, early access, lifting of insurance "restrictions", etc) through surgical interventions and including post-op medical needs since the nature of our bodies is so unique (try seeking care for prostate cancer as a post-op). Outside of that I intend to live my life as a woman, people can choose to identify me as transgender or not.
I'm not going to make it my mission in life otherwise...
The sense of irony is strong with this one. I'd just tell her, "that's just rude!" Maybe concoct some story about a friend with cerebral palsy and how they got called "it" a lot; how terrible it made them feel. I hope it all turns out well nonetheless.
Quote from: Whitney on August 15, 2011, 03:03:23 PM
The sense of irony is strong with this one. I'd just tell her, "that's just rude!" Maybe concoct some story about a friend with cerebral palsy and how they got called "it" a lot; how terrible it made them feel. I hope it all turns out well nonetheless.
Why not just leave it at that's rude?
Chances are if she understands you're not interested in hearing her insults she'll quit doing it anyways. If you don't give her an audience, she'll move on to someone who will. No need for back storys.
>:( there's been a few times where people had the nerve to call my aunt an "it" right in front of me and as hard as i try i can never control my anger. Im a very nice person but i admit ive turned into a huge bitch in these instances and people go away feeling more emberrased than they tried to make my aunt feel.
Quote from: regan on August 15, 2011, 03:11:07 PM
Why not just leave it at that's rude?
Chances are if she understands you're not interested in hearing her insults she'll quit doing it anyways. If you don't give her an audience, she'll move on to someone who will. No need for back storys.
As Ben Linus said, "Haven't I already told you John? I always have a plan." I just like to know what I'm going to say in advance if the other party decides to pursue it. I'm not the fastest to formulate a half decent response in these kinds of situations, so planning ahead has become a necessity for me. I never would intend to throw a story like that out unprovoked. :-X
Quote from: Lisbeth on August 15, 2011, 01:06:39 PM
I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but you are already on a no-win trajectory. You should have confronted her immediately when it happened. Not outed yourself, but told her that it was a mean-spirited thing to say about another human being. That could have put an end to it. But because you let it go by, the next step, whichever you choose it to be, will be an escalation. Don't expect it to end well.
Not necessarily. If this girl brings it up again, that would be the right time to say something (along the lines of the above quote) in my opinion. If not, I'm not sure if there's much point in taking any further action. I always tend to give people the benefit of the doubt unless problematic behavior repeats itself in a way that can show a pattern.
First, as someone observed, it would be useful to know the company's policy on such behavior. Second, why can't you report to your higher-ups that you have heard some talk (don't be specific about who is talking) and are wondering whether the company ever does workshops in sexual harassment, tolerance, and sensitivity. Or something like that.
You might even be able to do this anonymously. Does your workplace have a suggestion box?
You can very easily communicate with HR without revealing who you are. They understand about privacy and the comfort level of individuals (it is kind of their job).
Basically, they are there to help resolve issues in the workplace...and you can tell them how you would like the issue resolved (often they will take it as long as it is reasonable).
So, my long letter would be from a dummy email and I wouldn't mention my name (simply stating I am an employee in the park). I would probably request they have management speak to her (on the behalf of all transgendered people in the park)... and perhaps request addressing the entire workforce with a reminder that such behaviour is not acceptable.
As for people in stealth who feel the issues of other trans people isn't their concern... that it the exact reason we have such trouble moving forward. Like it or not, we are part of the same minority. Like it or not, the only way a minority gains acceptance is when they stand up together.
It would be like successful black men and women never standing up for other black people. Afterall, they aren't subject to the discrimination their "birth defect" causes... they have money, they aren't rejected by their community... so not their problem, right?
The LGB community has gained so much in the last 30 years because they started coming out of the closet and standing together. They tried the exact same "stealth" as trans people do now. Hiding in fear just means the bigotry continues unchallenged.
There are plenty of LGB people who feel absolutely no need to broadcast their sexuality because to them it'd just another part of who they are, rather than the single most important thing about them...why should the T part of the queer community be any different?
Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 15, 2011, 06:12:45 PM
There are plenty of LGB people who feel absolutely no need to broadcast their sexuality because to them it'd just another part of who they are, rather than the single most important thing about them...why should the T part of the queer community be any different?
Of course there are going to be people afraid to come out. Coming out in a dangerous place is simply stupid.
But there are many ways to help besides that (donating money for example to causes which target trans community or try to educate the public). Or even anonymous letters sticking up for injustices / bigotry you see.
Anyone in a minority that doesn't help in some way is selfish. They sit back and enjoy the benefits which come from the many sacrifices others make on THEIR behalf.
But, the best way, the one which makes the most change... are the strong brave ones which stand up proudly as what they are. They show that the minority isn't simply some abstract idea which only exists in "big cities" or as sleezy prostitutes... they show that we are normal and loving people who deserve every right that others enjoy.
And they do it not for themselves... they do it for all those less fortunate. All those hiding in fear. In hopes that one day those in "stealth" can actually come out and be free to be what they are without being judged.
Sometimes stealth is needed... it keeps you safe. But it seems like a sad existance constantly under the shadow of fear (but one necessary in certain places). But many take it too far, they completely shut themselves off from "those other people"... even when it is no longer an issue of safety. They become selfish and turn a blind eye to others like them, ignoring that had they been a little less fortunate they might have been one of "those people" unable to hide or subject to bigotry and suffering.
And the trans community is notoriously in very bad positions economically / socially. That is even more reason for those who have managed to succeed to lend their support. The ones fortunate enough to actually be capable of making a difference (with extra income they could easily spare, or influence they could easily flex).
Again, if we don't stand up for eachother... you really think random people will champion our causes for us? Who is going to fight for trans rights and trans support if not us?
Gay people have found pride in what they are. They have come to a point of self acceptance where they can stand up proudly and say "I'm gay, there is nothing wrong with me and I will challenge anyone that has a problem with that".... but it seems the trans community still largely slinks in the corner and sadly whispers "I have a birth defect, I was born wrong".
I'm with Rabbit.
Quote from: Rabbit on August 15, 2011, 07:11:36 PM
And the trans community is notoriously in very bad positions economically / socially. That is even more reason for those who have managed to succeed to lend their support. The ones fortunate enough to actually be capable of making a difference (with extra income they could easily spare, or influence they could easily flex).
Becuase every successful minority is made to feel inadequate by those less fortunate if they don't some how singlehandedly save the rest of the minority class from their own bad decisions. Why should someone feel forced to give up their "extra" income? Exactly how is it up to you to decide that it is extra income? What is this mysterious "influence" you speak of and why should I use it for your benefit?
Actually I really don't like the tone of any of it, now that I think about it, "managed to succeed" implies that I was likely to fail from the beginning and somehow overcame it or that by being transgender, somehow I was a failure to begin with. I am successful because I worked hard, set high goals for myself and them and didn't make excuses for myself along the way. That I some how owe something to someone unwilling to do those things is just plain offensive.
Quote from: Rabbit on August 15, 2011, 07:11:36 PM
Of course there are going to be people afraid to come out. Coming out in a dangerous place is simply stupid.
Why is it that if some of us choose to be stealth that it is presumed we are afraid to come out? The reality is that being a former transsexual is not a label some of us need to wear. Hell, there are people that don't realize I am lesbian until I tell them, but that is usually because they were trying to set me up with one of their straight friends.
The reality is not not all of us choose to continue to wear the label of transsexual once medical intervention and correction has occurred. The sooner some choose to recognize that fact, the better off others might be...
QuoteBut there are many ways to help besides that (donating money for example to causes which target trans community or try to educate the public). Or even anonymous letters sticking up for injustices / bigotry you see.
And yet some presume that does not occur already. Although the quickest way to ensure my checkbook or credit cards stay hidden away is to put that insipid 'transgender' label on the efforts.
I've got my annual effort in place by having ensured a rather high profile individual did not get perp-walked...
QuoteAnyone in a minority that doesn't help in some way is selfish. They sit back and enjoy the benefits which come from the many sacrifices others make on THEIR behalf.
Not all of us choose to place ourselves in a position to wear the label of 'minority.' Last I checked, women were not in the minority category. And outside of lesbian, woman is the title I have worn for the better part of the past 20 years, including ~15 post-operatively. I might have been more willing to be more vocal if some would choose to listen to those of us that reject the 'transgender' labeling and umbrella...but since some of us are ignored, it becomes easier to get on with our respective lives.
QuoteAnd the trans community is notoriously in very bad positions economically / socially. That is even more reason for those who have managed to succeed to lend their support. The ones fortunate enough to actually be capable of making a difference (with extra income they could easily spare, or influence they could easily flex).
Again, if we don't stand up for eachother... you really think random people will champion our causes for us? Who is going to fight for trans rights and trans support if not us?
Some of us who DO have the discretionary funds happen to feel that sufficient laws exist on the books to protect those who have had surgical intervention...and no, as a pre-emptive comment, quite frankly, I don't feel I owe anything to those who elect not to have surgical intervention.
QuoteGay people have found pride in what they are. They have come to a point of self acceptance where they can stand up proudly and say "I'm gay, there is nothing wrong with me and I will challenge anyone that has a problem with that".... but it seems the trans community still largely slinks in the corner and sadly whispers "I have a birth defect, I was born wrong".
I don't see the need to advertise that I had a birth defect. I make no bones about being lesbian because I do view that as a component of my identity. Being transsexual is NOT a part of my identity. It is a part of my medical history, but NOT my identity. It has no bearing on my life going forward. It also was not something I made a significant issue of in my 20's when I was undergoing medical intervention. My willingness to be out pretty much ended when I had surgery...and the limits of being out consisted of speaking to graduate classes at a major university as a quid pro quo for a prof who wrote my second letter for surgery. And had I not transitioned while finishing the degree, I don't know that THOSE sessions would have occurred...
Everyone chooses different ways to live their lives... No one is obligated to give back to the community in any way. Stay away from my "discretionary" income.
I speak and I mentor, but there is no way I'm donating my money anywhere...
Quote from: regan on August 15, 2011, 08:44:27 PM
Becuase every successful minority is made to feel inadequate by those less fortunate if they don't some how singlehandedly save the rest of the minority class from their own bad decisions.
Because history has shown us that is how those who are discriminated against move forward and up in society (and eventually hopefully gain equality). When groups don't do this type of "together" movement and fight only for individual lives, they stay easy targets for society to pick on and abuse.
Singlehandedly? Nope. It is something everyone needs to work together towards...or it doesn't happen.
QuoteActually I really don't like the tone of any of it, now that I think about it, "managed to succeed" implies that I was likely to fail from the beginning and somehow overcame it or that by being transgender, somehow I was a failure to begin with.
The cards are stacked against you when you are a minority (have you seen the latest study of transgendered people? it is very clear our being trans is a big cause for the issues many have). This isn't just because everyone is "lazy", sometimes sure, but by and large we (when we don't "pass") are held back and not given the opportunities other have.
Yes, some of us are fortunate... but those who aren't have no one else to turn to but us. If the successful ones in the trans community don't give a hand, there will be no one else.
But maybe this is a cultural difference? I am jewish, so I guess I was raised with this more communal look on things. I feel empathy for those who are hurt and discriminated against for the same "condition" as I have. I also was taught that a strong person doesn't use their strength simply to take things for themselves... they use their strength to help those who aren't as strong.
I know I would want others to come to my aid were things reversed. It is what a good person does.... it is the right thing to do... I just can't only think of myself. And, in helping others, I help create a better world which also affects me. So, even if you only want to think of yourself, isn't it better to help society move towards a point where YOU are accepted? When you are 60, do you still want to be hiding and afraid?
QuoteWhy is it that if some of us choose to be stealth that it is presumed we are afraid to come out?
Because those in stealth ARE afraid.
Maybe not of physical violence. But of being called "it". Of being stared at. Of being whispered about behind your back. Of being judged. Of having your trans status mean more to people than who you are.
That is EXACTLY why people go stealth. To avoid all those negative things... that is fear.
When society comes to a point where being trans means about as much as the color of your eyes, there wouldn't be a need for stealth... there wouldn't be a need for fear.
If you are stealth, you probably went through great lengths to hide your "past life". You probably are careful about what you talk to your doctor about in earshot of others. You (if you aren't in a relationship) are probably very nervous about dating and needing to reveal to your partner about your past. Being stealth isn't about just not mentioning you are trans and going on with your life, it is a CONSTANT existance where "the secret" is maintained. I have heard younger trans stealth girls talk about the anxiety they feel... worries at work about being discovered... or the OP here who worries that speaking up to defend a transperson might "out" her.
You tell me this isn't out of fear? It is the very definition of it.
QuoteLast I checked, women were not in the minority category.
Not minority, but discriminated against. Go back 50 years before the womens movement and the "woman label" would have brought you a lot of trouble in life (or just go to a country where women are still seen as objects).
QuoteSome of us who DO have the discretionary funds happen to feel that sufficient laws exist on the books to protect those who have had surgical intervention...and no, as a pre-emptive comment, quite frankly, I don't feel I owe anything to those who elect not to have surgical intervention.
I find this sad :( Both because you think the "laws on the books" are plenty enough for trans people...
And that you feel those who haven't had "the surgery" somehow deserve to be discriminated against :(
I find this very sad.
QuoteI don't see the need to advertise that I had a birth defect.
I don't see what I was born as a "birth defect". I am proud of what I am. Being trans wasn't a "condition" that i was cured of, it is a description of my mind and body (and history). It would be the same as saying being half latino and half white is a "birth defect". Why is having qualities of both genders (mental and/ or physical) a bad thing? Yes it is a little unusual, but it is just as beautiful as any "cis gendered" person.
And I don't want to be forced to hide it. I reject the idea that society is trying to push on me that this is something dirty and disgusting. I have had an interesting life and have unique viewpoints stemming from this "condition", I don't want to hide this. I want to talk freely about my experiences and life with those I meet. You can only call something a birth "defect" when it is a worse condition than being born "normal"... this DEFINITELY isn't a defect, I am just as good (if not better) than "normal" for having been born this way.
So I speak up (when safe). And I speak up loudly.... how DARE others try to tell me what I am is disgusting. In fact, today I was on a gaming board "setting the record straight" on trans people. ( http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/official--best-traps--thread-/1234939?page=9 (http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/official--best-traps--thread-/1234939?page=9) ) I won't slink away in shame ... I have nothing to be ashamed about.
Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 15, 2011, 09:42:45 PM
Being transsexual is NOT a part of my identity. It is a part of my medical history, but NOT my identity.
This is something I agree with. I can understand if some people do want to take what they were born with and incorporate it into their identity, but not all of us do. It is just a medical condition, like so many others that people are born with or get at some point.
I do believe that everyone needs to stand up against injustice though. It doesn't matter if you are a member of the group that is being mistreated or not. If standing up puts you at risk, then you have to make a choice, but don't let that choice be guided by fear. Pick your battles yes, but don't run from them all. Have we really become such a selfish, greedy society that no one wants to stand up for what is right when it gets tough (or even when it's easy)? Does no one have any honor anymore?
Quote from: Rabbit on August 16, 2011, 12:01:55 AM
I know I would want others to come to my aid were things reversed. It is what a good person does.... it is the right thing to do... I just can't only think of myself. And, in helping others, I help create a better world which also affects me.
This is what I am talking about. I was not raised with a more communal look on things, quite the opposite in fact, but I came to see things this way on my own, and it also fits with my faith tradition. Just today my brother was saying (in many more words than this but the message was the same) that you have to be aggressive and out for yourself, neither getting help nor giving it, but I simply do not believe that that is the right thing to do. Dog eat dog may be the way of the wilds, but it is not civilized, and no society can really call itself a civilization while it allows barbarism, even if it is disguised as commerce, law, politics, or whatever else. Maybe I give humanity too much credit in believing that we can achieve higher standards, but I am not going to give up and accept the terrible status quo. Neither should you. There is simply too much at stake.
Rabbit I think you should travel to one of those Islamic countries besides Iran and fight for the rights of transsexual people there, they need you because others fear death :) But you are fearless so you'll be okay with it, and are not selfish so won't just concentrate on those transsexuals (like most of us) who can already live quite comfortably! Me, I'm too scared and selfish to do that... :(
I don't agree with everything Ann Onymous has said here--that is, not all of her choices are my choices, and I would probably discuss and debate some of her ideas if we knew each other IRL. But I wholeheartedly defend her right to define herself and live her life as she pleases without having someone else judge the validity of her choices, place other (unwanted) labels on her, or try to lay social (as opposed to legal) obligations on her that she hasn't chosen for herself.
^--- This.
I think that part of the problem is the word "stealth" itself, which is very loaded, but is loaded in different ways depending on who's using it. To me "stealth" as a word implies hiding - which to me is perfectly valid; but a lot of people use it in a more generic sense just to mean "I am now living in the gender I was always supposed to be in the first place, and why is it anybody's business but mine that I wasn't always able to do this?" - which to me is perfectly valid.
And I would also add: it is reasonable to ask someone to explain their motives if you're unsure why they do or do not do something in a particular way - it is unreasonable either to demand this, or to assume you know their motives without asking.
Quote from: Samantharz on August 14, 2011, 09:19:02 PM
Interesting conversation I had at work today. But first a small backstory. I just got a new job at Disney World, I am getting acquainted with the people there. I work out on "stage", basically just selling merchandise at one of the stores. Well, it turns out there's another, much older, transwoman that works near me. She seems happy, and I'm very happy for her; but one of my coworkers didn't seem so happy for her.
She (my coworker) approached me and said, "So do you know about ... 'it'?". I was like, Nope. Then she pointed at the older transwoman. She proceeded to explain to me how "it" was hired on as male but gradually changed to female, and how it isn't clear whether or not "it" had "it's" surgery. Also how "it" is required to use the bathroom in the managers trailer, because "it" started using whichever bathroom "it" pleased. I am not exaggerating this one bit, she used the term "it" every chance she got.
From this post on it appears the speaker of "It"( now to be known afterwards as "She-It") has become the focus, what about Option 6; Approach your fellow TransWoman co-worker. But not about the nosy She-It (LOL) co-worker, but what is attracting all the attention to her.
You could go to HR, but maybe you can help the "Sista", is she that obvious? Her looks, voice, etc. This is a touchy subject but what if you side step "She-It" co- worker and stealthy go to the other "Sista", don't bring up what's being said about her because she probably Knows all to well. Maybe you can help her go stealth, it does put you at some risk, but HR should be used sparingly, like a an Atomic Bomb! Ka-Boom!
The concepts of "Stealth" and "Activism" have been fought over (discussed with passion) on and off again since this forum started. Guess what, we have never come to a concenses of opinion and I doubt we ever will.
I have my doubts that we will ever agree on the meaning (and levels) of "Stealth" and I am sure we will never agree wether or not we all should be "Activists".
I for one am not an Activist, and I guess I would be called "semi" stealth. I don't advertise who I am, I live my life, nothing more, nothing less. Obviously anyone who knew me from before knows about my transition, its their choice how they want to deal with that information (luckily most all accept it). I'm never going to run up to each new person I meet and say "hey guess what..." its not their business. However if they ask a valid question I will most likely answer it truthfully.
We need to accept that there in no "one" answer to this issue. Everyone has to decide on their own how they want to handle being public. And we need to "Accept" each persons decision and not deride them for how they want to live THEIR life. It is their life and they deserve to live it how they feel is best for them.
Just don't tell us how to live and we won't tell you how to live. And don't say your doing it "for" us and/or that they the person is "afraid" or they would live their life differently.
The life belongs to the person living it.
Ok, I'll talk about stealth first, then about my coworker.
Firstly. I choose stealth because it's simply my right. I see no reason whatsoever for my coworkers to know that I was born with a birth defect. It's inconsequential, and is simply none of their business. Being out at work has a way of creating an unnecessary bias, and an additional stress on me because people may (or indefinitely will) whisper.
I stand up and I'm counted when it matters. I've written letters to my congressman, I go to support groups not because I need them, but to help others, and I stay on these forums mostly to help others, not because I need it very much.
I am quite active and "out" when I need to be. But in my professional life, I do not need to be. I also have some various areas of my personal life where I am not out.
Now back to the original topic on hand. I talked to my manager confidentially. I told him that I do not want her to get in trouble, but I'm not entirely sure of how to approach the situation. I told him how I believe she just seems to be miseducated. He agrees, and he said he was surprised that she said something like that. He seemed thrilled about my reaction of disgust and my acceptance of the transgender employee, so that may have actually scored some points for me.
He basically said what I thought he'd say, that is if she brings it up again, respectfully disagree with her and tell her that you don't think it's alright.
I'll go to HR as a last resort. As far as trying to help the transwoman become more stealth. Well there are 2 things wrong with that. One, I don't think there's much hope for her. Two, that would require outing myself, and even to her I don't want to do that. I've talked and made friends with her though.