I'm curious, if there really is a god, why does he/she permit so many young children to starve to death and be abused? I'd like good strong sound answers and not excuses please.
People have free will
It is just decided by parents of this children to starve to death or be abused
and those in 3rd world countries such as Somalia?
Yes at 3rd world especially
Who force them to breed children when they are too lazy to make enough food
Who force them to burn villages and fields?
...
There is fertile land, but is much easier to make children and call to OSN that you are hungry ::) (It is same situation as families at 1st wold which live from social batches ::))
i dont see it as a valid argument as it doesnt answer the question: why are children permitted to starve and go hungry? Certainly, if there was a god, he/she would put food in the mouths of those starving children
God is as responsible parent
It (god) cant do important work instead of you
And after death go to better place, but guilt is at side of their parents
still doesnt answer the question: why are children permitted to starve to death if this god is an all loving god?
Some cultures see it as long as they live they can always have more children. Sad as it is, it is the way they see it.
In many developing countries, a combination of a very high infant mortality rate and lack of adequate and ongoing healthcare and any sort of welfare system to rely on means that the only way you can be sure to be cared for in your old age (after a lifetime of bloody hard work) is to have children who will look after you. Hence there is an historical tendency to have many children - as some will die, some will move away to get married or find work, and only a couple may be left to help tend the land and feed and care for their parents and relatives when they get old. And now, thanks to the more developed world having done its bit to make the world hotter, there will be more children starving - because with the weather going more wrong, they'll be less able to depend on reliable harvests.
Those of us in developed cultures can take an awful lot for granted.
please dont get off topic......I'm looking for a well thought out, lucid, intelligent answer to my question, which again is: if this god is an all loving god, why does he/she permit children to go hungry and starve? obviously, young children do not have the ability to fend for themselves which is why many in this world go malnourished. "free will" of man does not answer the question at hand
Sorry, I didn't mean to go off-topic, so much as to respond to those already-off-topic "oh, those lazy 3rd world people and all their babies" posts. I'm surprised to see such generalisations here.
I have nothing to add to the original discussion, being a non-theist myself.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 09:57:10 AM
"free will" of man does not answer the question at hand
It does if you believe that God gave man free will, and doesn't control mankind like a manipulator with his marionettes. If you think that believers are just puppets, you're never going to get your answer.
so free will is why so many children go hungry and starve? why so many women and children are abused? why there is so much hate in this world?
I'll use a simple analogy: supposedly, this god is an all loving god, am I correct? As a parent of a 14 year old son, I would never allow him to go hungry, would protect him if being abused, so forth and so on.....because I am an all loving parent. why doesnt this god step in and feed the millions of children that are starving to death, being abused, so forth and so on?
To be very blunt, "free will" to me, sounds like nothing other than one of the many excuses.....sorry
It seems to me that you're looking for a justifiable reason not to "believe". If that's the case, you don't have to look very far. Does it make sense that children starve to death and are abused? No. It doesn't make sense either that people survive a 30 foot fall, but a fall in the shower kills them. Yet it happens, more then you probably realize. There's no rhyme or reason to it, but to say its proof that a loving God doesn't exist isn't really a strong argument either. If anything, it makes you believe (it does for me at least).
yeah, but why is there no godly intervention for all those children? I'm not looking for a reason not to believe, I'm looking for a reason to believe.
Quote from: Padma on August 18, 2011, 10:05:29 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean to go off-topic, so much as to respond to those already-off-topic "oh, those lazy 3rd world people and all their babies" posts. I'm surprised to see such generalisations here.
I have nothing to add to the original discussion, being a non-theist myself.
wasnt aimed at you, just a general response to the few previous comments
Yes, God could step in and feed all the children (both young and old), I have no idea why God doesn't step in right now and correct all the ills in the world. I am a Christian, and I do believe that every one of those children will be taken care of in heaven for all eternity.
But, man is who created all the wars and strife in those areas, man is the one who steals large amounts of the aid money that is sent to those areas in hope of feeding some of those children.
Mankind can be very evil and uncaring.
I doubt that my answer will be sufficient to answer your question, I'm not sure anyone can give you an explaination that would be acceptable.
what intervention you want, lightning from blue sky to kill "bad" people and food raining? ???
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 12:51:58 PM
I'm not looking for a reason not to believe, I'm looking for a reason to believe.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 18, 2011, 01:00:44 PM
I doubt that my answer will be sufficient to answer your question, I'm not sure anyone can give you an explaination that would be acceptable.
The great thing about free will is that we're just as free not to believe. If you're looking for a reason to believe, you will use reasons not to believe as proof of your desires.
My pastor has talked about how his faith was challenged as a child when a tree fell on his best friend, killing him. Why would God allow such a thing? I believe that God has a plan, and maybe for that plan to work, trees have to fall on children and kill them. No it doesn't make sense, but there has to be a reason for it. Maybe some day we'll understand God's plan and that's where "believing" comes in. Given that bad things happen to good people we have to believe in something, even if what we believe in is "nothing".
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 12:27:18 PM
so free will is why so many children go hungry and starve? why so many women and children are abused? why there is so much hate in this world?
I'll use a simple analogy: supposedly, this god is an all loving god, am I correct? As a parent of a 14 year old son, I would never allow him to go hungry, would protect him if being abused, so forth and so on.....because I am an all loving parent. why doesnt this god step in and feed the millions of children that are starving to death, being abused, so forth and so on?
To be very blunt, "free will" to me, sounds like nothing other than one of the many excuses.....sorry
So is God directing you to feed and care for your son? If you stopped, would spiritual sustenance alone keep him alive and healthy? And I supposed God directed my stepmom to starve me and beat me and torture me?
I'm going to come out right now and say that I'm not a Christian, but I harbor deep spiritual beliefs in a power larger than us. I've experienced a great deal of abuse, but I've seen too many examples of humanity banding together for the common good to believe anything
BUT that we come from a common source. Does this common source control every minutiae of our lives? I don't think so. But I think we're set on a path, we have a destination, and that destination is enlightenment. Enlightenment is simply moving closer to the source, closer to God. How we get there and what happens to us in the meantime is the result of free will and our interactions with the wills of others.
The next time you laugh, have a genuine smile, feel your heart swell with joy, see something of exquisite beauty, stop and ask yourself: where did this come from? Why did you feel it? If you want to believe that it's all chance, that it's all a biochemical reaction, or that it's just a total crock, then that's your prerogative. But I choose to believe that I'm experiencing firsthand a sliver of the numinous, the great unknown beauty. Call it God if you wish.
Nobody can
give you a reason to believe, it has to come from your heart.
And as for the question of the children, I still maintain that it's free will. Are the people who abuse/starve them removed from God or the source? No. For whatever reason, it's where they've chosen (at least temporarily) to walk their path. If they're mentally ill, it's probably not even a choice. The act itself is appalling for those of us who see its cruelty, but the important thing is that the person learns from their mistakes and grows. That's where compassionate, more-enlightened souls enter the picture. And what of the unfortunate victim/s? Is it fair? Hell no! Was it their spiritual destiny? No, if you believe that destiny is enlightenment. But that little soul continues, grows somewhere else, and gets another chance to flourish.
Christians might say that little soul enters heaven, which is much the same as what I believe, in that we always grow closer to God. Even my ideas that the perpetrators of heinous acts may eventually find enlightenment (even if not in this life) have a Christian analog in salvation through belief in Christ. Belief in Christ, I should add, is another exercise in free will. You choose to or you don't. The Bible is full of examples of those who did not.
I have many many thoughts on this subject. While the explanation of free will may be valid to some, to me it's nothing more than an excuse as to why there is no "devine" intervention is such cases (hungry children or abuse).
We all know that there is the belief of the human soul entering heaven or hell after biological death. Here is another thought provoking question: what about animals? do they enter heaven or hell after death? While it can be argued as to the validity of animals having a soul, they most certainly do have intelligence and while it may not be agreed upon, are more similar (genetically) than may be realized. Animals, believe it or not, do make choices as well. For instance, my 5 year old Siberian Husky is highly intelligent, responds in a social manner with my son and I and, believe it or not, chooses whether or not to ->-bleeped-<- in the middle of my carpet! lol
Every argument I've heard from my FB friends, family and other friends is that animals do not have a soul therefore do not go to heaven or hell. I always ask "what constitutes the def of "soul.""
I do not believe in the concept of a god as is put forth by mainstream religion as being the creator of the universe. For all we know there may be parallel universes. I do believe Karl Marx when he authored the communist manifesto and his beliefs of religion and god. It certainly makes perfect sense to me when someone has a hard, lousy, poor life and dreaming of something better in the "afterlife".....certainly makes sense to me.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 07:18:09 AM
I'm curious, if there really is a god, why does he/she permit so many young children to starve to death and be abused? I'd like good strong sound answers and not excuses please.
God is love
love is God
we were made in the likeness of God/love
so what do
WE DO about the situations around the world?
God is in us if we have love
God is not separate from us unless we do not have love in us
If we do not have love in us we won't adopt a child thru one of the many agencies (if we can afford it)
Lets show our love and likeness of God within us by helping when we can
I have been blessed to have found two who needed help that i could afford
One has outgrown their program while the other one is my sons age of 13
The one who outgrew the program is also the same age as my older son who is now 20
Jesus/Yahshua tried to show us how we can build up our spiritual bank account
as we can't take our riches with us when we pass over
religions teach that God is separate from us but i do not believe that.
God is love and we try to make a resting place in our hearts for that love/god
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 07:18:09 AM
I'm curious, if there really is a god, why does he/she permit so many young children to starve to death and be abused? I'd like good strong sound answers and not excuses please.
Because a Creator wold not have a type of mentality to control people like puppets. We are free to make our own decisions whether they are good one or bad ones. When someone blames God for every "f**k" up in the world, that is the same as saying "The devil made me do it."
If a God controlled everything we thought or acted upon then we would not be humans. Merely caged animals with an eternal master that pushes a water and food bowl to us twice a day.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 12:27:18 PM
so free will is why so many children go hungry and starve? why so many women and children are abused? why there is so much hate in this world?
In a simpler theological answer: yes.
If you do not believe in a God, no amount of explanation will make sense to you because you have already come to your own conclusion that there is no answer. As a former Priest, I seen people do these things all the time. You can explain it until the cows come home and it makes sense to everyone else in the room, but if someone has the mind set to prove to them that God exists, then the apologetical discussion is over before it started. Because you start the question without having an important component to the answer. And that is faith.
A wise Priest or Priestess would tell you to have faith first and then ask the difficult questions. Because without faith as an element to the discussion, there is no point to even discuss it because the question isn't really a question; more like a statement of why you don't believe in a God the way some others do.
Thomas Jefferson once said (Paraphrased) It is foolish for man to blame a diety for the bad things in life but disregard the blessings that he has bestowed upon this world no matter how small or great.
so, despite thousands of children dying everyday from starvation, faith will feed them despite the international community's best efforts to feed them? Faith will stop the warlords in Somalia from stealing the food? Faith will stop that child from being abused (many around the world right now)?
Having my undergrad degree in bio and doing my grad work in bio, I like to ask questions first and seek answers to those question before I formulate an opinion (or hypothesis) on anything.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 10:38:34 PM
so, despite thousands of children dying everyday from starvation, faith will feed them despite the international community's best efforts to feed them? Faith will stop the warlords in Somalia from stealing the food? Faith will stop that child from being abused (many around the world right now)?
Having my undergrad degree in bio and doing my grad work in bio, I like to ask questions first and seek answers to those question before I formulate an opinion (or hypothesis) on anything.
You just proved my entire point from my last post.
Faith isn't found purely in scientific formulas and hypothesis if you don't have it to begin with. It is a blindfolded walk in a forest of doubt, hope, and belief.
Once you have faith then you start seeing it in the world of science through the small things. But without faith you can ask this question and receive a thousand and one answers and none it will make sense to you.
Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:58:37 PM
You just proved my entire point from my last post.
Faith isn't found purely in scientific formulas and hypothesis if you don't have it to begin with. It is a blindfolded walk in a forest of doubt, hope, and belief.
Once you have faith then you start seeing it in the world of science through the small things. But without faith you can ask this question and receive a thousand and one answers and none it will make sense to you.
faith isnt going to feed those children, no matter how much you have.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 19, 2011, 11:16:08 PM
You're making an assumption...that God would want those children to stay alive.
ergo, it isn't worth discussing because she already had the answer before the question was even asked.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 19, 2011, 11:16:08 PM
You're making an assumption...that God would want those children to stay alive.
Ever consider that maybe God is indifferent to any particular outcome?
I think that if there was a god, he/she/it would more likely be in the form of Yoda! lol.......i think there's a pretty strong correlation between faith and "the force".......
Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 11:27:02 PM
ergo, it isn't worth discussing because she already had the answer before the question was even asked.
if i knew the answer i certainly would not have asked it. so far the comments i've seen seem more like excuses then anything.....obviously I have very little, if any, respect for theology and those who practice it because of all the excuses provided for this "all loving god"........everything good, and we've been blessed by this god and everything bad, well it isnt gods will.
oh, i'm sorry I didnt feed my son this week because i have faith he wont go hungry. i didnt help my son with his calculus homework because i have faith he'll do well on his next exam when he obviously needs help with derivatives. sorry mr banker, i didnt pay my mortgage because i have faith somebody else will pay it for me. i prayed and prayed that my mother wouldnt die on the operating table, but, it wasnt gods will that she survive and "he" (sexist) called her home..........hello, every biological species will eventually die
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 11:56:50 PM
if i knew the answer i certainly would not have asked it. so far the comments i've seen seem more like excuses then anything.....obviously I have very little, if any, respect for theology and those who practice it because of all the excuses provided for this "all loving god"........everything good, and we've been blessed by this god and everything bad, well it isnt gods will.
oh, i'm sorry I didnt feed my son this week because i have faith he wont go hungry. i didnt help my son with his calculus homework because i have faith he'll do well on his next exam when he obviously needs help with derivatives. sorry mr banker, i didnt pay my mortgage because i have faith somebody else will pay it for me. i prayed and prayed that my mother wouldnt die on the operating table, but, it wasnt gods will that she survive and "he" (sexist) called her home..........hello, every biological species will eventually die
It sounds like you've taken a lot of words from this thread and twisted them to fit your preexisting biases. If you can't respect theology because it sounds like excuses, why do think you'll get an answer from anyone who follows a theology that you won't dismiss as an excuse? All you'll get is verification of your bias because you can easily take any argument from a believer and twist it.
Until you experience the numinous or are open to experiencing the numinous, you may never find the answer you seek here.
Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 20, 2011, 12:27:34 AM
It sounds like you've taken a lot of words from this thread and twisted them to fit your preexisting biases. If you can't respect theology because it sounds like excuses, why do think you'll get an answer from anyone who follows a theology that you won't dismiss as an excuse? All you'll get is verification of your bias because you can easily take any argument from a believer and twist it.
Until you experience the numinous or are open to experiencing the numinous, you may never find the answer you seek here.
no, not really. "faith" and "free will", to me, are excuses and there's nothing really to twist about those excuses......and that is common in theology for where a good solid answer to a question is not answered. If this god him/her/it self revealed him/her/it self to me, obviously my views would change.
do you realize that the presumption that this god is male is of the earliest form of sexism? I remember hearing once, and I may be wrong, that 10% of ones earnings must be donated to the church? why is that? All these TV (television not ->-bleeped-<-) preachers always crying "send me money".......
per Poison's song off of the Flesh and Blood CD.........give me something to believe in
Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:15:43 PM
Because a Creator wold not have a type of mentality to control people like puppets. We are free to make our own decisions whether they are good one or bad ones.
so all those young children who cannot take care of themselves just choose not to eat? all those young children that cannot take care of themselves choose to be physically and sexually abused? A while back, that woman in south carolina (I think) locked her kids in the car and drove it in the lake for them to drown......those 3 kids chose to be in that situation? where was the devine intervention in that case.....having been in the marine corps, i have been waterboarded and it aint fun having the sensation of drowning!
And, if there is an absolute creator, how would we know what type of mentality he/she/it would or does have? really, i'm being serious. Certainly no living creature has ever met him/her/it, correct?
Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 18, 2011, 01:16:36 PM
So is God directing you to feed and care for your son? If you stopped, would spiritual sustenance alone keep him alive and healthy? And I supposed God directed my stepmom to starve me and beat me and torture me?
I'm going to come out right now and say that I'm not a Christian, but I harbor deep spiritual beliefs in a power larger than us. I've experienced a great deal of abuse, but I've seen too many examples of humanity banding together for the common good to believe anything BUT that we come from a common source. Does this common source control every minutiae of our lives? I don't think so. But I think we're set on a path, we have a destination, and that destination is enlightenment. Enlightenment is simply moving closer to the source, closer to God. How we get there and what happens to us in the meantime is the result of free will and our interactions with the wills of others.
The next time you laugh, have a genuine smile, feel your heart swell with joy, see something of exquisite beauty, stop and ask yourself: where did this come from? Why did you feel it? If you want to believe that it's all chance, that it's all a biochemical reaction, or that it's just a total crock, then that's your prerogative. But I choose to believe that I'm experiencing firsthand a sliver of the numinous, the great unknown beauty. Call it God if you wish.
Nobody can give you a reason to believe, it has to come from your heart.
And as for the question of the children, I still maintain that it's free will. Are the people who abuse/starve them removed from God or the source? No. For whatever reason, it's where they've chosen (at least temporarily) to walk their path. If they're mentally ill, it's probably not even a choice. The act itself is appalling for those of us who see its cruelty, but the important thing is that the person learns from their mistakes and grows. That's where compassionate, more-enlightened souls enter the picture. And what of the unfortunate victim/s? Is it fair? Hell no! Was it their spiritual destiny? No, if you believe that destiny is enlightenment. But that little soul continues, grows somewhere else, and gets another chance to flourish.
Christians might say that little soul enters heaven, which is much the same as what I believe, in that we always grow closer to God. Even my ideas that the perpetrators of heinous acts may eventually find enlightenment (even if not in this life) have a Christian analog in salvation through belief in Christ. Belief in Christ, I should add, is another exercise in free will. You choose to or you don't. The Bible is full of examples of those who did not.
so those children are a sacrificial offering?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 12:51:22 AM
no, not really. "faith" and "free will", to me, are excuses and there's nothing really to twist about those excuses......and that is common in theology for where a good solid answer to a question is not answered. If this god him/her/it self revealed him/her/it self to me, obviously my views would change.
So what you're saying is that you're looking for the numinous experience, which no human can give to you. And for those who have experienced the numinous, there is no way to put that experience into words, for to explain the numinous immediately strips the experience of its numinosity. For that is its very essence: by no means can it be fully described to another living being. That's not to say it can't be discussed, but the breathtaking quality is impossible to impart to others.
And it also sounds to me like you have issues with churches. Well, not every follower or leader has experienced the numinous firsthand, but follow teachings of people who DID experience the numinous and supplant that doctrine as their own genuine experience (which it certainly is not). The numinous forever changes those it touches, and it's safe to say that anyone who uses spirituality or religion for the denigration or destruction of others has never had such an experience personally. They twist words to fit their own selfish agenda, not only because they have free will, but because they've conflated their sense of spirituality with their earthly desires to the point that they use spirituality/religion to pursue not the greater good, but their own wants. That said, there are infinitely more people who haven't had the numinous experience, yet still choose (again, free will) to live their lives according the most loving interpretation of their doctrine as possible.
I'm not saying that those who have experienced the divine are puppets without free will, but what they will into action or being is forever changed to more enlightened endeavors.
EDIT: it should also be worth noting that the numinous experience does
NOT stand up to empirical testing or validation, because it's not something that can be turned on or off, nor can it be willingly replicated. So if you can't believe what can't be seen.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 01:09:14 AM
so those children are a sacrificial offering?
See, that's just not fair. That's taking my words and turning them into the most outrageous argument possible. I never once said that the divine required human sacrifice.
If you simply don't believe in free will, then I'm done with this argument. You will never understand what I or anyone else has said here.
Quote
"Freud never asked himself why he was compelled to talk continually of sex, why this idea had taken such possession of him. He remained unaware that his "monotony of interpretation" expressed a flight from himself, or from that other side of him which might perhaps be called mystical. So long as he refused to acknowledge that side, he could never be reconciled with himself. He was blind toward the paradox and ambiguity of the contents of the unconscious, and did not know that everything which arises out of the unconscious has a top and a bottom, an inside and an outside. When we speak of the outside--and that is what Freud did--we are considering only half of the whole, with the result that a countereffect arises out of the unconscious.
There was nothing to be done about this one-sidedness of Freud's. Perhaps some inner experience of his own might have opened his eyes; but then his intellect would have reduced any such experience to "mere sexuality" or "psychosexuality." He remained the victim of the one aspect he could recognize, and for that reason I see him as a tragic figure; for he was a great man, and what is more, a man in the grip of his daimon."
-Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections"
Why is ANYONE abused or killed?
What is there after the irritating sting of death?
How long is a "life time" of suffering (however long or short)
remembered during an eternity of rapture, reunited with the Creator?
One of the many flaws in these sorts of arguments is that there is no way to test the hypothesis.
If a person believes or has faith in a deity then that alone is enough to answer the question. The very nature of the deity is incapable of being understood, because by definition you cannot understand the 'mind' of a deity. Therefore you accept the outcome: starving children, or terminally ill children or every other horrible thing that happens by having Faith in the nature of the deity.
If you do not believe in 'gods' and I do not, (but I respect those who do), then the question is unanswerable. You cannot ask a question of a deity that you do not believe exists.
The question the OP posed is totally answered by evolution. The environment places pressure upon all and we evolve to deal with it over eons. If there is insufficient food 'we' will die off until there is. Problem solved. If 'we' get infected by a new virus or whatever that is deadly we die off, until those who are immune survive. History, even recent history is full of examples.
But I think we need to be cautious. Faith in religion and gods are very important for many people, I do not mean that in any trivial way. People lives are sustained by belief, including my own belief in evolutionary pressure, and we, as thinking caring people, need to take that on board. Otherwise we are no more accepting than those who regard people with GID as perverts and sinners.
JMO
Cindy
If we believe in Love we believe in God because God is love god is not something separate. Either you have god/love in you or you don't. We are made in the likeness of god we are made in the likeness of love but some do choose to turn away from love/god
this thread feels like the standard "my belief system is right and yours is wrong" and it seems the question was posted merely to push that agenda.
When a group of people answer the question only for the OP to say "not good enough" then you just need to walk away from the question because when you keep on trying to explain yourself you become "entertainment" to that person.
The answers given are good here to the question but if the original poster already have it set in her mind what the answer is, then the question is no longer a question seeking an answer but more of a "this is what I believe and this is my proof why I believe it" Thus, any answers given here are pointless in regards to the person posing the question.
The interesting point is that you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God no matter how hard you try to explain it to the opposite parties.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able, nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus (341 - 270 BCE)
Or, to put it in problem form:
If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
There is evil in the world.
Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist.
Or you could refine it, as has been done:
God exists.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
Evil exists, therefore...
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 01:09:14 AM
so those children are a sacrificial offering?
Again, we are given free will. If you really read the answers without a bias, your own response would make sense to the answers given.
But again, this thread feels more and more like a "baited argument" than a real curious seeking out an answer.
I love but I do not believe in gods
Cindy
To be honest its way past time for it to be locked.
IMO
Cindy
Quote from: Cindy James on August 20, 2011, 06:38:02 AM
I love but I do not believe in gods
Cindy
if you believe in love you believe in god because they are one and the same.. god to me is not an entity but just the act of love.. i don't follow religions i just follow love/god
I'm pretty awesome but I'm not a goddess :-* :-* :-* :-*
Hugs
Cindy
Quote from: Cindy James on August 20, 2011, 06:42:58 AM
I'm pretty awesome but I'm not a goddess :-* :-* :-* :-*
Hugs
Cindy
we were created in the likeness of Love/God but some do give it away for other things but you Cindy are a Goddess of love a love Godess
Quote from: Annah on August 20, 2011, 06:27:46 AM
this thread feels like the standard "my belief system is right and yours is wrong" and it seems the question was posted merely to push that agenda.
When a group of people answer the question only for the OP to say "not good enough" then you just need to walk away from the question because when you keep on trying to explain yourself you become "entertainment" to that person.
The answers given are good here to the question but if the original poster already have it set in her mind what the answer is, then the question is no longer a question seeking an answer but more of a "this is what I believe and this is my proof why I believe it" Thus, any answers given here are pointless in regards to the person posing the question.
The interesting point is that you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God no matter how hard you try to explain it to the opposite parties.
careful annah......those first few sentences are borderline attacking. I asked a very valid question and has nothing to do with pushing an agenda. I get sick to my stomach when I see images of very young children being malnourished and the thought of thousands upon thousands dying everyday because of that......same with abuse.
If your answer to my question is free will and faith, please elaborate specifically on why faith and free will permit young children to starve to death and be abused. Despite the international community's best efforts, there still are thousands upon thousands of young children dying everyday from starvation.
As a loving parent, I would steal food if necessary to prevent my child from starvation..........that's my simple analogy.
I too was sick to see children dying so i joined www.worldvision.org (http://www.worldvision.org) and www.christianchildrensfund.org (http://www.christianchildrensfund.org) or else you can join many others if you search http://www.charitynavigator.org/ (http://www.charitynavigator.org/)
As long as people are on this earth, they had gods for things they couldn't explain.
It's quite easy when you don't understand something to give the credits to a God and to say that we people are too insignificant to understand the will and power of that God.
Modern science has already destroyed a lot of that fables.
As long as it give people some comfort and they can believe in internal life after death, it's okay with me, but people fight eachother to death just for their religion, they think often they have all the wisdom because of reading the bible and are apparently the right persons to judge people who think differently.
That's one of the reasons that children in b.e. Somalia dying of starvation, there is a group of believers who will not let pass the people who want to help.
Believers in a God seems to know exactly what that God wants and they see themself as chosen people of that God.
No matter what religion we are talking about, such an arrogance.
Maybe God is only existing in the head of the believers because there is no proof of the existing of a God.
So, if a God is not existing, who will help this poor children.....nobody and the starvation will go on.
God is not a separate entity
god is love and love is god plain and simple
We were born with love/god in us = we were born in the image of god/love
Jesus / Yahshua on the other hand was a separate person who understood that God is love
the pharisee's distorted the truth that is why jesus spoke against their lies.
The pharisee's are like todays pastors or priest etc and actually push people away from the truth
People can't tell you about getting to god because we were born with god in is. remember we were born in the image of love/god however some try to distort that truth and say you have to do things to get to god but you don't because god is in us and has always been in us
I think that Jamie has asked an important question. Regardless of what you believe or where your faith lies, it's not really a difficult question to answer. The god (lower case intentional) of our world is money and power. Those who have it determine what happens. It is as simple as that.
So, while it is an interesting concept to contemplate the excuses God may have for not intervening, everyone has their own concepts of who and what God is. The philosophical reasons could well outnumber the people count of the world. But in reality, it is the money and the foul stench of corruption that tags along for the ride, that rules this world.
Funny how everyone ignored Epicurus then, and they still do. Is there no answer? Or just no answer that you like?
If god can not prevent evil, He/she is NOT god. If they can, but choose not too, really, you want to follow that?
Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 05:48:55 PM
If god can not prevent evil, He/she is NOT god. If they can, but choose not too, really, you want to follow that?
that's a very very interesting thought!!
Tekla, You're still here too? My oh my how I've seen so many old acquaintances.
You think too logically to be accepted in our society! Go away! No.... no.. come back. It's really nice to see you again in the virtual world.
Kia Ora,
::) I guess on a more cynical note.... "God knows why" these kind of things happen! And believers/theists become agnostic when it comes to questions like this...
::) And what is god without faith ?
Metta Zenda :)
If your god lets children and other innocent people suffer just you you can have a velvet-lined life lesson delivered to you as you park your ever expanding ass on a beach, then your god sucks.
Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 05:48:55 PM
Funny how everyone ignored Epicurus then, and they still do. Is there no answer? Or just no answer that you like?
If god can not prevent evil, He/she is NOT god. If they can, but choose not too, really, you want to follow that?
There are two major flaws in Epicurus' argument...it's why I never bothered answering it.
The first flaw is the issue that Epicurus is trying to define a God centered around Judaic/Christian Theology. Most Gods worshiped are not Omnipresent or Omnipotent nor do they have any desire to do so.
Even these attributes of the Judaic/Christian God developed these attributes through the writings of men in only selective passages.
Secondly to presume we know what a higher being thinks, feels, or commanded things into being is a very presumptuous and assanizing thing to even think of. If there is a God or Goddess, we have no earthly idea what he or she or it is like because the closet thing we have to describe any form of a deity is through the writings of man.
In the school of theology, we have a saying for some things. "It is what it is."
To try to learn it deeper without any further knowledge to base it on is personal devotion and not discovery.
To put down other people for their religious beliefs or their lack of religious beliefs is also a very immature thing to do (this last comment wasn't directed at you. Just an observation i hold dear to any fundamentalist religious and fundamentalist atheist zealot).
Epicurus is trying to define a God centered around Judaic/Christian Theology.
Interesting, as the Greeks of his time cared nothing for (and knew little about) the Jews, and Christ wasn't even born for a few hundred years after he wrote it - still.... Still, I'm sure getting both points of your answer absolutely 100% wrong is an "A" answer where you go to graduate school. In all other undergraduate schools, it still gets an 'F'.
Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 09:35:21 PM
Epicurus is trying to define a God centered around Judaic/Christian Theology.
Interesting, as the Greeks of his time cared nothing for (and knew little about) the Jews, and Christ wasn't even born for a few hundred years after he wrote it - still.... Still, I'm sure getting both points of your answer absolutely 100% wrong is an "A" answer where you go to graduate school. In all other undergraduate schools, it still gets an 'F'.
Every single one of your posts today have been pretty messed up. I know you are in a bad mood about something so I wont entertain your personal attack against me.
But if you want a historical lesson in order me to better explain it to you I will (I assume you knew enough background information so I didn't think I had the need to spell it all out for you)
Jewish culture was heavily influenced in the Hellenistic era and likewise, the Greek people were influenced by the Hebrews to an extent. Much of Epicurus' philosophies against these types of Deity definitions were directed at the Hebrew people because if he were to use his philosophical statement in a Greek society of a religious Pantheon it would make no sense whatsoever since he used a Singular when referring to God. Furthermore, there were Malevolent gods in the Greek Pantheon so his statement would make even less sense when debating theological apologetic to a society that embraced both kind and malevolent gods, wise and foolish gods, etc etc.
Epicurus' statement was a sly comment against Judea, which at the time, was one of the only nations that prided itself on a Monotheistic theology. Also, Epicurus was infamous at pissing people off ...even his own leaders. To equate Epicurus' quote against a pantheon of gods would not make any sense. To compare it to the Hebrew god made all the sense in the world. Also, in the Greek Pantheon, their gods were not all knowing and all powerful. They even made it a point to understand this. This is another reason why many nations did not like Israel/Judea as their belief structure in an all knowing and all powerful God seemed a bit "elitist and nose thumbing."
Furthermore, I never mentioned Jesus. I used Judiac/Christian as the God worship by these two religious faiths are the same God and the statement Epicurus had said was directed towards the Hebrew God, which in turn, would be the same argument against the Christian God. This is why I put it in there.
There. Someone answered your question. Take what I said here and then reread what I stated in my prior post. You can either agree or disagree. I could care less. But lower your attitude a few notches if you wish to have a conversation about this. You wanted the question answered. Don't belittle someone who answers your request. It's rather immature.
If you would like sources of Epicurus arguing against Judean theology and the Hebrew people comparing non believers as Epicureans, I will be more than happy to link them.
(PS. My GPA in undergrad school was 4.0...It would be a little difficult to get a Ph.D. with Fs on a college transcript)
Quote from: Annah on August 20, 2011, 09:52:05 PM
Every single one of your posts today have been pretty messed up. I know you are in a bad mood about something so I wont entertain your personal attack against me.
But if you want a historical lesson in order me to better explain it to you I will (I assume you knew enough background information so I didn't think I had the need to spell it all out for you)
Jewish culture was heavily influenced in the Hellenistic era and likewise, the Greek people were influenced by the Hebrews to an extent. Much of Epicurus' philosophies against these types of Deity definitions were directed at the Hebrew people because if he were to use his philosophical statement in a Greek society of a religious Pantheon it would make no sense whatsoever since he used a Singular when referring to God. Furthermore, there were Malevolent gods in the Greek Pantheon so his statement would make even less sense when debating theological apologetic to a society that embraced both kind and malevolent gods, wise and foolish gods, etc etc.
Epicurus' statement was a sly comment against Judea, which at the time, was one of the only nations that prided itself on a Monotheistic theology. Also, Epicurus was infamous at pissing people off ...even his own leaders. To equate Epicurus' quote against a pantheon of gods would not make any sense. To compare it to the Hebrew god made all the sense in the world. Also, in the Greek Pantheon, their gods were not all knowing and all powerful. They even made it a point to understand this. This is another reason why many nations did not like Israel/Judea as their belief structure in an all knowing and all powerful God seemed a bit "elitist and nose thumbing."
Furthermore, I never mentioned Jesus. I used Judiac/Christian as the God worship by these two religious faiths are the same God and the statement Epicurus had said was directed towards the Hebrew God, which in turn, would be the same argument against the Christian God. This is why I put it in there.
There. Someone answered your question. Take what I said here and then reread what I stated in my prior post. You can either agree or disagree. I could care less. But lower your attitude a few notches if you wish to have a conversation about this. You wanted the question answered. Don't belittle someone who answers your request. It's rather immature.
but....specifically, why does faith and free will permit young children to starve to death and be abused?
Quote from: Annah on August 20, 2011, 09:56:27 PM
(PS. My GPA in undergrad school was 4.0...It would be a little difficult to get a Ph.D. with Fs on a college transcript)
and exactly how is that relevent? but since you opened the door, what is your degree in and where did you go?
I do not understand why good things happen to bad people and bad things
happen to good people but if you think about it good and bad really is subjective.
The pain of enduring surgery is a bad thing but the results could possibly be considered miraculous.
I believe that EVERYTHING happens for a reason just because I do not understand the mind
of my Creator, does not mean "she" does not exist, only that I am not privy to the plan.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 07:18:09 AM
I'm curious, if there really is a god, why does he/she permit so many young children to starve to death and be abused? I'd like good strong sound answers and not excuses please.
As my spirituality has evolved and I have gained knowledge, I have formulated all sorts of answers to questions like this. But, unlike math and science, where your answer can leave you with a "That's it!" revelation, this particular type of thing never does because there's no way to prove it.
Of all the books and articles I've ever read, the one statement that provided the best answer, if you want to settle this once and for all, was,
Before we come to this world, we create our life map. We decide where we will live, who our parents will be, what kind of challenges we will have, everything that will be part of our life. We do so with a very specific purpose, such as to teach ourselves something or to become better spiritually...This can't be proven but it can certainly be challenged. That didn't matter to me. What I gained from this was, if I was at blame for everything that I hated about my life, for everything I wanted to change about my life, for every unexpected and undesired happening in my life, I couldn't bitch or whine or forever wonder, "Why me?" And adopting that belief gave me a lot more time to live life.
Since this topic is under "Christianity" it is fair for the definition of God to be centered around Christian/Jewish beliefs.
The question has been answered to the best that it will be answered. The problem is that any answer come up with will not suit everyone as we all come from different backgrounds.
I think its time to stop beating up on each other and let this topic die.
I've locked this conversation.