when it comes to transvestites, who do not identify as the opposite sex, which restroom should be used if and/or when in public? Same question for crossdressers?
Kia Ora,
::) Unisex....If I was who you mentioned....But then that's just me....
Metta Zenda :)
no, just wondering how others feel or what other opinions are. Luckily, many places of business are/have implemented family restrooms and unisex restrooms. But, in the instance where no individual restrooms or unisex/family restrooms, which one should be used?
Kia Ora J N,
::) I take it you are meaning those TVs and CDs whose birth sex is quite obvious "identifiable"...Again this would depend upon the individual...Some CDs are what one would call "bigendered", that is when they are dressed up they take on the persona of the gender they are identifying with, so I guess the female loo would be the best place for them...
And if a person happened to have a "transvestic" fetish [Receiving sexual gratification from wearing clothing of the opposite sex] then I'm guessing this person wouldn't be out in public in the first place or if they were they would be very selective as to where they go so has to avoid any hassles...
::) But I could be wrong...
Metta Zenda :)
Another WHAT IF?
If s/he looks like a girl, quacks like a girl, walks like a girl, s/he may pee like a girl?
I'd say yes, to the girls loo.
In any case how would you know the persons derives 'sexual-gratification' to look and quack like girl?
The natal-female might just get the same kick sitting down in the next stall?
Girls do too you know, hey?!
Since you asked the question... :-)
Axelle
I would use the facility that you won't get thrown out of. If there aren't any that fill the bill, go somewhere else.
;)
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 21, 2011, 02:46:52 AM
I would use the facility that you won't get thrown out of. If there aren't any that fill the bill, go somewhere else.
Ha! Excellent answer. :)
There is some recent controversy on this subject..
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,104033.msg778887/topicseen.html#msg778887 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,104033.msg778887/topicseen.html#msg778887)
Hey, listen, I was thrown out of a couple restrooms before I started to transition and it scared the crap out of me. I did everything I could to stay away from public restrooms until I fit into the roll.
And it is the role that will get you every single time. I wear tee shirts, jeans, and walking shoes around here. I wear no makeup. I really don't get it. I tried so hard for so long and got so much public teasing. It was only when I started to be comfortable with myself that I started to get by with no problems.
Hi,
As a woman i only use womens & normaly thats the way it should be , when i go like my women friends it should only be women ... okay... i dont expect to see a male in our space, one good reason being is when i take our 8 y 8 m grandchild who is a girl she will say to me , she does not wont a male to be in there, she does not like males any where around her when she has to do what ever. so if your a male dont go ,
Now the other side is , if your dressed & would not be notised & nothing about you says male , looks manerisms walk & how you handle your self then we will accept that , tho most of us who are women will talk ,, okay . & i know some who can not do any of what i'v said they would be outed so fast it would cause a stir , so think about your self in how you conduct your self in our ....space.....
If say you went to a bar type do drag places or we out number the male's then thats okay in some places, tho not a problem i'v seen , i do mind tho i'll over look that. under those condstions .
Tho just the day to day where other people are , it can become an issue & thats from a woman.
You know what we where taught have you been to the loo before you go out ....or just dont drink so much knowing your going out,,
As a after thought . its about conducting your self in a manner thats aproprate to where you are.
& lets say your a woman how would you feel about a male comeing in to your space , what would you think . why is that male there,...... other motives , thats why it 's our space, ........
You see its very hard for a male to think as we do .
...noeleena...
if you present male, go to the men's bathroom
if you present female, go to the women's bathroom
same rule of thumb for fitting rooms
both the bathrooms and fitting rooms has privacy doors
Quote from: noeleena on August 21, 2011, 03:54:27 AM
Hi,
As a woman i only use womens & normaly thats the way it should be , when i go like my women friends it should only be women ... okay... i dont expect to see a male in our space, one good reason being is when i take our 8 y 8 m grandchild who is a girl she will say to me , she does not wont a male to be in there, she does not like males any where around her when she has to do what ever. so if your a male dont go ,
I'm going to play some devil's advocate. I respect your opinion but I just wanna reflect on some of the issues.
There are many people in our society that will say the same thing about us trans people that we say about the crossdressers and TV people (really TV is such an outdated word....this is the last time youll see me use it). I just find it somewhat ironic how we can point fingers at CDs and scold them or suggest to them they cannot go to the bathroom because even though they dress up as a woman, they are still a man. I say "ironic" because every single conservative person out there and some moderates will say the same thing to us.
It seems that we repeat that type of process against a CD that society impose upon a TS.
QuoteNow the other side is , if your dressed & would not be notised & nothing about you says male , looks manerisms walk & how you handle your self then we will accept that , tho most of us who are women will talk ,, okay . & i know some who can not do any of what i'v said they would be outed so fast it would cause a stir , so think about your self in how you conduct your self in our ....space.....
So, based upon this argument, how do you feel about transsexual women who do not pass? Is the ability to pass also the ability to be granted access into the gender specific bathroom in which they are presenting under?
QuoteTho just the day to day where other people are , it can become an issue & thats from a woman.
Sounds eerily similiar to a conservative cis gendered woman talking about transsexuals too.
When I identified as a crossdresser and was out crossdressed, I used the women's room. If gendered restrooms must exist, then I don't see why a CD or TV shouldn't use the restroom matching their current presentation.
both the bathrooms and fitting rooms has privacy doors
Actually, lots of clubs, particularly in big night club areas like NYC or SF, have taken all the doors off all the stalls on police orders. I've seen communal dressing rooms in places too.
I think people should use the public restroom that they feel comfortable in and or the one they feel safest in. Most often (always?) that would be the one that matches their presentation, I would think. Of course, this also behooves those who use these spaces to behave appropriately when they do so.
You cannot tell who is a cross dresser, who is transsexual or who is cissexual just by looking. There are too many trans people who don't quite pass and too many CD'ers that pass very well for anyone to think they can tell. That's why the "I don't want cross dressers in the ladies room" meme is just as transphobic as the "men in dresses will assault women in the ladies room if we pass this nondiscrimination law," BS. Prejudging by identity or appearance is wrong, in my book, and it should never be countenanced. Prejudice based on appearance - skin color - was long perpetrated on people in this country. We have all decided this is wrong. The same rules should apply, in my opinion, to appearances based on gender expression.
I suggest we judge individuals by their behavior and not groups based on some stereotype.
Quote from: Annah on August 21, 2011, 04:36:29 AM
if you present male, go to the men's bathroom
if you present female, go to the women's bathroom
There are also people who don't identify and/or present as either gender. What bathroom is safe for them to use?
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on August 21, 2011, 11:30:52 AM
There are also people who don't identify and/or present as either gender. What bathroom is safe for them to use?
Z
If they don't present as either gender or is androgen then they should use the bathroom that they feel the safest and most comfortable in.
What about the rights of the people who are in the bathroom?
Regardless of whether the person is a male or female CD/TV the fact remains that no matter how they present in public they are still male or female, it does not give them the right to invade the privacy of others. Doing so is foolhardy and exposes those individuals to prosecution etc, etc. It matters not that cases of assault, molestation, and sexual interference in washrooms may be few and far between, even blown out of proportion, what matters is the fact that it is hard for society in general to accept opposite sexes in gendered washrooms. Until then use unisex or family washrooms.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 11:40:39 AM
What about the rights of the people who are in the bathroom?
based on that logic, trans people would be kicked out the bathroom right alongside the crossdressers.
You also have to take into account the rights of the person wanting to use the bathroom.
Quote from: Steph on August 21, 2011, 11:55:14 AM
Regardless of whether the person is a male or female CD/TV the fact remains that no matter how they present in public they are still male or female, it does not give them the right to invade the privacy of others. Doing so is foolhardy and exposes those individuals to prosecution etc, etc. It matters not that cases of assault, molestation, and sexual interference in washrooms may be few and far between, even blown out of proportion, what matters is the fact that it is hard for society in general to accept opposite sexes in gendered washrooms. Until then use unisex or family washrooms.
So what about a transsexual person who has yet to get their gender identity marker changed to "F"? Should they use unisex bathrooms and not their gender presentation? Are they only a female until the judge says so?
Im not attacking anyone personally, Im trying to show people there is a much bigger picture here that goes far beyond the subject matter of crossdressers and bathrooms. The solution is very rarely simple.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 11:40:39 AM
What about the rights of the people who are in the bathroom?
Unless I'm walking in with clothespins and corks, they're free to relieve themselves in any manner they see fit.
Quote from: Annah on August 21, 2011, 12:03:57 PM
based on that logic, trans people would be kicked out the bathroom right alongside the crossdressers.
You also have to take into account the rights of the person wanting to use the bathroom.
Yep we have the right to use the washroom of our gender, not our appearance. I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.
I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.
yeah, one groups says they are one thing, while the other groupsays they are something else. But beyond self-labeling, there is not exactly a lot to go on, and at the point where all the CDs are shoved to the side, what's to stop them from self-IDing as something else?
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 01:08:36 PM
I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.
yeah, one groups says they are one thing, while the other groupsays they are something else. But beyond self-labeling, there is not exactly a lot to go on, and at the point where all the CDs are shoved to the side, what's to stop them from self-IDing as something else?
Very true. What I'm getting at is wether you label yourself as TS or CD one needs to be
very prudent when venturing into washrooms. If you pass then no problem, who the heck is going to be the wiser. It's when folks of either group, CDs who don't pass or TS just starting out (so-to-speak) don't expect the general public to accept you just because there are laws in place that say you have the right to be there. Usually there aren't many humans rights lawyers stationed at washroom doors.
If a person is in any restroom to achieve sexual gratification of any type - they are in the wrong place totally. Objections and reporting to management/police is very appropriate, unless it's that type of establishment. If it is, why are you there and are you wrong in objecting?
If a person is in any restroom labeled closest to their gender identity/presentation for the purpose of bodily elimination, cleanliness, make-up adjustment and possibly girly gossip, they are in the right place. Anyone objecting, verbally confronting or physically assaulting any other person there is wrong and reporting to management/police is very appropriate.
In spite of authoritarian removal of restroom stall doors, personal privacy should be of the highest priority. Why you are in the restroom is your business, not mine.
Susan Kay
One more thing - I spent my life being labeled; gender, sports interest and skill, weight, politics, and every other thing a person has as part of themselves. While our support group is for transgendered only, that is for a group comfort level, including several youth. Our exception is for "questioning". Buried in the above comments is one or more threads alluding to the fact that most transexuals have exhibited behavior that can be labeled as cross dressing. How many of cross dressers are actually transgendered? I'm not ready to pound on a "cross dresser" who may actually be trans gendered.
Susan Kay
The reason the stall doors were pulled was D-R-U-G-S.
TS just starting out (so-to-speak)
I see lots of TS persons who a decade or more after they transition can be clocked a block away. Genetics can not always be overcome with chemicals and surgery, and for a lot of the girls a lack of social skills have not helped, as they don't mimic the 'right' gestures in the correct way. And really w/o a full physical search, how do you tell?
And we have a lot of people on these boards who say they are TS, and demand all those rights, but they have never seen any kind of doctor, never been on hormones, never had surgery. But call them men in a dress and there will be the devil to pay.
How many of cross dressers are actually transgendered?
According to the accepted terminology - all of them. According to the recent fights, many of the TS persons do not think they are TG.
Quote from: Steph on August 21, 2011, 11:55:14 AM
Regardless of whether the person is a male or female CD/TV the fact remains that no matter how they present in public they are still male or female, it does not give them the right to invade the privacy of others. Doing so is foolhardy and exposes those individuals to prosecution etc, etc. It matters not that cases of assault, molestation, and sexual interference in washrooms may be few and far between, even blown out of proportion, what matters is the fact that it is hard for society in general to accept opposite sexes in gendered washrooms. Until then use unisex or family washrooms.
hmmm interesting......
Quote from: Susan Kay on August 21, 2011, 01:41:26 PM
One more thing - I spent my life being labeled; gender, sports interest and skill, weight, politics, and every other thing a person has as part of themselves. While our support group is for transgendered only, that is for a group comfort level, including several youth. Our exception is for "questioning". Buried in the above comments is one or more threads alluding to the fact that most transexuals have exhibited behavior that can be labeled as cross dressing. How many of cross dressers are actually transgendered? I'm not ready to pound on a "cross dresser" who may actually be trans gendered.
Susan Kay
Unfortunately Transgendered is the accepted Umbrella Term that encompasses TS/CD/TV/Intersex/Androgyne etc. I think you meant to say "...who may actually be transsexual" :)
Quote from: Steph on August 21, 2011, 01:02:42 PM
Yep we have the right to use the washroom of our gender, not our appearance. I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.
be careful Steph........I got smited several times over this!
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 21, 2011, 01:56:09 PM
be careful Steph........I got smited several times over this!
Hmm... so it seems.
Quote from: Steph on August 21, 2011, 01:02:42 PM
Yep we have the right to use the washroom of our gender, not our appearance. I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.
Yes I do know the difference between TS and CDs. I also know that 10 years ago people were attacking us because we used the female bathrooms. Now, some TS are doing the same thing against CDs when all they want to do is pee in a toilet like us. If you feel comfortable pushing a CD who is presenting female out of a female bathroom into the men's bathroom be my guest. I would never do it. It's unethical and it's unsafe. And to presume they are only in there to commit to lewd and sexual acts just because they are a crossdresser is just rather poor stereotyping.
Oh how ironic our little cliques have become. So ironic that we are finger pointing at CDs as if they have done an immoral thing by peeing in a female bathroom when, at the same time, we as trans people fight for our very own rights to pee in the female bathroom. For a group of people who fight so hard to eliminate old relic definition of how people identify us, we sure are quick to forget these struggles when it comes to putting down Crossdressers.
It's almost like "oh we're transsexuals.....crossdressers? pff. They're weird." And totally forgetting that the vast majority of all transsexuals started out at crossdressing in one form or another before they discovered who they truly are.
It's sad and tragic.
I'm kinda done with this thread. I've said my peace and at least I know that I embrace a crossdresser just as much as any other gender fluid or other gender related person.
Blessings,
Quote from: Annah on August 21, 2011, 02:02:34 PM
Yes I do know the difference between TS and CDs. I also know that 10 years ago people were attacking us because we used the female bathrooms. Now, some TS are doing the same thing against CD. If you feel comfortable pushing a CD who is presenting female out of a female bathroom into the men's bathroom be my guest. I would never do it. It's unethical.
Oh how ironic our little cliques have become. So ironic that we are finger pointing at CDs as if they have done an immoral thing by peeing in a female bathroom when, at the same time, we as trans people fight for our very own rights to pee in the female bathroom. For a group of people who fight so hard to eliminate old relic definition of how people identify us, we sure are quick to forget these struggles when it comes to putting down Crossdressers.
Shameful.
what the hell does ethics have anything to do with it? lol unethical? nobody is pointing fingers at anyone. do CD/TV identify as the opposite sex? No, they do not. Do they live 24/7 as the opposite sex? No, they do not.
therefore, I, and many others, believe they should be using the restroom according to their sex and not their appearance. If you argue otherwise, and you have, you might as well argue that anyone (non TG/TS/CD/TV included) should be able to use which ever restroom they want regardless of appearance.
I think you have a great misunderstanding of the FUNDAMENTAL difference between transsexual and transvestite/crossdresser!
difference between transgender and transvestite/crossdresser!
You're not using the words right. Which of course, totally defeats whatever argument you were trying to make.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 02:30:12 PM
difference between transgender and transvestite/crossdresser!
You're not using the words right. Which of course, totally defeats whatever argument you were trying to make.
please elaborate upon your thought
As Steph correctly sated above: ... Transgendered is the accepted Umbrella Term that encompasses TS/CD/TV/Intersex/Androgyne etc.
Quote from: Annah on August 21, 2011, 02:02:34 PM
Yes I do know the difference between TS and CDs. I also know that 10 years ago people were attacking us because we used the female bathrooms. Now, some TS are doing the same thing against CDs when all they want to do is pee in a toilet like us. If you feel comfortable pushing a CD who is presenting female out of a female bathroom into the men's bathroom be my guest. I would never do it. It's unethical and it's unsafe. And to presume they are only in there to commit to lewd and sexual acts just because they are a crossdresser is just rather poor stereotyping.
Just to be clear... A CD is a male or female who dresses in cloths of the opposite gender for whatever reason; sexual gratification; feeling of well being etc. TS is a condition in which a person identifies with a physical sex different from the one that they were born with or assigned in cases where ambiguity of the child's sex organs led to assigning them a physical sex.
I have never stated or advocated "pushing a CD who is presenting female out of a female bathroom into the men's bathroom" I have said is " It's when folks of either group, CDs who don't pass or TS just starting out (so-to-speak) don't expect the general public to accept you just because there are laws in place that say you have the right to be there. Usually there aren't many humans rights lawyers stationed at washroom doors."
you're correct. transgender is the accepted umbrella term however, some prefer to use transgender in lieu of transsexual as well.
some prefer to use transgender in lieu of transsexual as well.
Then they would be wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and options, they are not entitled to their own unique vocabulary. Any landlubber can (and frequently does) confuse 'ship' and 'boat' it doesn't change the fact that they are two different things, and confusing the vocabulary still doesn't change the physics.
Quote from: Steph on August 21, 2011, 01:02:42 PM
Yep we have the right to use the washroom of our gender, not our appearance. I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.
I guess I wasn't sufficiently aware.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 02:30:12 PM
You're not using the words right. Which of course, totally defeats whatever argument you were trying to make.
Unintentional misuse of words "totally defeats" an argument? How about defeating an argument with information and a logical counter-argument rather than a language tutorial? I'm sure my arguments are not anywhere close to irrefutable. In the future perhaps I'd best use the word trans to convey reference to all groups so as to avoid being "totally defeated" by my own misworded arguments.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 21, 2011, 01:51:48 PM
This is part of the problem. Why should it be the womans responsibility to deal with it when these are supposed to be gender segregated bathrooms.
We all know men's sex drive causes them to think about sex quite often. If womens only space is removed whats to stop men from harassing women in their private moments. Whats to stop a man from following a girl hes attracted to straight into the bathroom claiming hes merely expressing his gender preference. Women everywhere are not going to agree with this.
It is always each person's responsibility to deal with their problems, whether real or perceived. It's messy, unpleasant and often ineffective, but please, keep big brother out of the restroom door monitor business.
It's (mostly) a public restroom, not your private bathroom or personal meditation site. The law exists to deal with harassment and molestation there just as anywhere.
Susan Kay
Vermont recently changed their laws, so to get your M changed to an F you simply need to be diagnosed with GID. now personally I am terrified of both bathrooms equally and have an anxiety attack when I have to use one. Presenting female and using the men's room endangers yourself to physical altercations, presenting female (unsuccessfully) and using the women's room can subject you to verbal/ legal altercations.
There is no easy answer, even though there really should be.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 05:00:58 PM
some prefer to use transgender in lieu of transsexual as well.
Then they would be wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and options, they are not entitled to their own unique vocabulary. Any landlubber can (and frequently does) confuse 'ship' and 'boat' it doesn't change the fact that they are two different things, and confusing the vocabulary still doesn't change the physics.
For once Tekla, I actually agree with you.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 21, 2011, 01:51:48 PM
This is part of the problem. Why should it be the womans responsibility to deal with it when these are supposed to be gender segregated bathrooms.
We all know men's sex drive causes them to think about sex quite often. If womens only space is removed whats to stop men from harassing women in their private moments. Whats to stop a man from following a girl hes attracted to straight into the bathroom claiming hes merely expressing his gender preference. Women everywhere are not going to agree with this.
What to stop them from doing it now? There is no bathroom police waiting for some pervert to follow a young lady to a secluded restroom.
Nor are there any bathroom police to keep people safe in the men's room either.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 08:03:51 PM
Nor are there any bathroom police to keep people safe in the men's room either.
Exactly why bathrooms terrify me.
I think it's far more likely that an FtM is going to find out that more guys have been tuned-up in bathrooms than any other place. No guards. No cameras. One way in, and only one way out.
At this point I am not always presenting as a women for a number of reasons including my wife.
When I am in gender neutral clothing I am often called ma'am so going to a men's bathroom has become scary.
At a store or restaurant I usually rush in and enter a stall and than rush out.
When I'm am dress as the women I am I have no problems in the women's restroom.
Often chatting with other ladies.
I am a transsexual and have been on hrt for 19 months.
A satirical piece I wrote a couple of years ago re "bathroom police"
http://y2gender.com/index.php?blog=2&p=40&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 (http://y2gender.com/index.php?blog=2&p=40&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1)
I know a lot of femme gay males who use the women's restroom.
I honestly do not see a problem with it, it's not like they're going to be peeking up under your stall taking pictures lol.
(:
Quote from: Joeyboo~ :3 on August 24, 2011, 05:06:57 AMI honestly do not see a problem with it, it's not like they're going to be peeking up under your stall taking pictures lol.
(:
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/sydney-changing-room-hidden-camera-warning-20110824-1j9pe.html (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/sydney-changing-room-hidden-camera-warning-20110824-1j9pe.html)
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 11:40:39 AM
What about the rights of the people who are in the bathroom?
They have the right to use the bathroom too.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 05:00:58 PM
some prefer to use transgender in lieu of transsexual as well.
Then they would be wrong.
How people use words is what defines them. So you're wrong that they would be wrong.
i belive nomatter if your TS/TV/CD if you are curenly presenting as male and when i present as male like for me i am TS and i use the wheel chair bathroom or any one that unisex bathroom or the male bathroom(in desperation), and this should be the same for anyone presenting as male even(if like me) you are female if the curent appearance is male you must think of your own safety first, however if your TS/TV/CD and your curently presenting as female but for some reason you know you don't fully pass enough to enter the female bathroom then i sugest ONLY using the nutural/unisex bathrooms, and if you present as female(and pass) as either TS/CD/TV provided you do it just to be a girl and goto the bathroom to either fix make up, goto the toilet or just chat with your girls then your more than welcome in a female bathroom, if your in there to be preverted or anything then your in the wrong place, you wouldn't do the same thing in the male bathroom, that also goes for anyone who's TS and is presented as male in the male bathroom, have the same respect and don't be preverted to men either, the bathrooms are not the place for that.
this is how i feel and i am TS and i curently 95% of the time present as female and i do pass and i always use the female bathrooms when i need to goto the loo, and while i do fancy only women i am not in there to be preverted and anyother woman would be the same, it's something called respect of one's privacy and we all must obey this because otherwise your just a creep.
just remember be safe(enter as you pass best), be respectful and use the bathrooms what there ment to be used for, aslong as u do this then there is no problem using the bathroom.
Lucy xxx
How people use words is what defines them. So you're wrong that they would be wrong.
If that is true then there is no hate speech. Just because I use that word and you (and everyone else) finds it objectionable, that doesn't mean that I meant it in that way.
But hey, try this little experiment using two words that are in one sense totally equal. Have your friend walk into a biker bar and ask:
Which of you cats owns that bike out there?
then you can walk in and ask:
Which of you pussies owns that bike out there?
Let's see if words make a difference.
while to someone who is TS using the term TG to define yourself as TS is not correct i personaly belive people precive us when using the term transSEXUAL people see the SEXUAL part as ok your changing because of your sexual preference and also they also see it as the more often term used ->-bleeped-<-, i take offense to both terms and i feel being called TS offensive because this is how the offensive people to us use this word no when it comes to coloured people the N word is considered evil yet it's fine for someone who is coloured to use this term, it's in the same context, i belive the term transgender should be applied to us as people because we are changing(trans) gender(our gender) and while our mind heart and soul is female(MTF) or male(FTM) people precive us different and going back to the ->-bleeped-<- comment people precive we do this to be sexualy involed with people are half female and still have the male parts, and while i relise some girls have to do this because they can't aford the surgeries it also gives us a bad name and because of this people do not view us as female so the term transexual imo is tainted and i belive impossible to get back, so imo the term transgender should be removed as a umbrella term and given to us as people and i feel personaly this is more fitting(sorry for going off topic but too many people mention this in this post and i felt it needed to be addressed)
i am transgender and i could care less how anyone else says different because if you like others change how u feel you may aswell be some puppet.
Quote from: Lisbeth on August 24, 2011, 11:12:20 AM
They have the right to use the bathroom too.
How people use words is what defines them. So you're wrong that they would be wrong.
I have to agree with tekla (I can't believe that I just said that :) )
We can use any words we like to describe ourselves, what is important is the words other people/institutions use to describe us. If we continue to propagate wrong terminology then we loose.
Quote from: tekla on August 24, 2011, 12:04:40 PM
Let's see if words make a difference.
Oh, words make a difference, but it's the people who use them who define what they mean. There's no "Ministry of Word Definitions" any more than there's a "Ministry of Silly Walks."
I typically use the word trans, I prefer it because I am Trans(itioning) and it just seems to work for me. But I also don't take offence easily and do not mind transsexual or transgender.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 05:00:58 PM
some prefer to use transgender in lieu of transsexual as well.
Then they would be wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and options, they are not entitled to their own unique vocabulary. Any landlubber can (and frequently does) confuse 'ship' and 'boat' it doesn't change the fact that they are two different things, and confusing the vocabulary still doesn't change the physics.
There is historical precedent and continuous use of transgender and transsexual interchangeably going back at least 40 years. The use of transgender as an umbrella term, and transsexual specifically for those who have a brain sex that differs from their assigned sex is
not universally accepted.
I prefer to use them in that way myself, but it doesn't mean people who use them interchangeably are misusing the terms.
As far as the actual debate in this thread, use whichever one you're most comfortable with and hopefully it will also be the one which causes the least incident. Not passing doesn't mean you don't have every right to be there.
Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 26, 2011, 06:25:47 PM
As far as the actual debate in this thread, use whichever one you're most comfortable with and hopefully it will also be the one which causes the least incident. Not passing doesn't mean you don't have every right to be there.
I agree. Appearance should not be a criterion. I think behavior is the standard by which restroom use should be regulated.
Recently, I was faced with this dilemma. I was at a concert (My first time out in a skirt at a non-LGBTQ event). As I do not "pass" at all, I chose to use the men's room.
I was so uncomfortable - I zipped in and out.
Of course I used a stall but ugh how filthy it was!
I just felt like this was not my territory! I am so going to get a letter to cover any possibility of legal issues and use the women's whenever I am dressed in a skirt.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 11:55:59 PM
when it comes to transvestites, who do not identify as the opposite sex, which restroom should be used if and/or when in public? Same question for crossdressers?
I have a better question. Why do you keep bringing this up given it's really none of your concern.
Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 11:05:44 AM
Actually, lots of clubs, particularly in big night club areas like NYC or SF, have taken all the doors off all the stalls on police orders.
Honestly if a club has had to remove the stall doors on police orders, that probably isn't a safe place to be anyway!
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 21, 2011, 02:16:45 PM
what the hell does ethics have anything to do with it? lol unethical? nobody is pointing fingers at anyone. do CD/TV identify as the opposite sex? No, they do not. Do they live 24/7 as the opposite sex? No, they do not.
therefore, I, and many others, believe they should be using the restroom according to their sex and not their appearance. If you argue otherwise, and you have, you might as well argue that anyone (non TG/TS/CD/TV included) should be able to use which ever restroom they want regardless of appearance.
I think you have a great misunderstanding of the FUNDAMENTAL difference between transsexual and transvestite/crossdresser!
Gotta love how she starts off asking a simple question, then uses her own tread, once again, to TELL other people how they ID.
Honestly, it's a bathroom.
I say use the one you're comfortable in. I work at a movie theater and although I pass as male most of the time I'm just so used to being in the women's that I go there. But I feel very uncomfortable doing so. So when I'm visiting my work (or working, since I'm not really out yet) I try to just plain avoid sexed restrooms. I use the family one. If it's full I wait (but if one of my coworkers is watching I use the ladies', even though I would rather not).
Soon I'm going to come out. I have to pass my citizenship test first. Then I can be *me* without worrying. And once I do I'll start using the men's. But that's going to be another month or so. =]
i guess id say whichever you pass more as. i mean if you look male even if you wear a dress, then i guess go to the mens for example?
being told youre in the wrong restroom though not illegal is still... well uncomfortable and annoying right so
This is just my own opinion. But if you (anyone...not pointing a finger to any particular person here), as a transsexual feel the need to put rules and regulations and feels so strongly about who pees in what bathroom then I think you have underlying prejudice issues that needs to be worked out.
It's just so ironic seeing transsexuals fighting over how CDs shouldn't use a woman's bathroom. I guess they totally forgot how we fought like hell to get the right to pee in a stall of our comfortability; and now given the right (in some states), we get this hard pressed ego to do the exact same damn thing the bigots did against us just recently and to this day.
Pretty messed up if you ask me.
As Annah has said in not so many words, y'all need to stop being such narrow minded elitists. We're all in this together, humans, the earth, life. Let's all hug, share some coco, and watch the FTMs try to write their names in the snow. ;)
Quote from: Annah on August 28, 2011, 01:20:07 AM
But if you (anyone...not pointing a finger to any particular person here), as a transsexual feel the need to put rules and regulations and feels so strongly about who pees in what bathroom then I think you have underlying prejudice issues that needs to be worked out.
It's just so ironic seeing transsexuals fighting over how CDs shouldn't use a woman's bathroom. I guess they totally forgot how we fought like hell to get the right to pee in a stall of our comfortability; and now given the right (in some states), we get this hard pressed ego to do the exact same damn thing the bigots did against us just recently and to this day.
Great point, Annah. It's like people transition and all of a sudden want to put up this velvet rope for people they feel are deserving of rights. I dunno, I think we should be more tolerant toward ALL people who get oppressed. People of color, different nationalities. Whatever. I'm with you!
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on August 28, 2011, 04:05:25 AM
Great point, Annah. It's like people transition and all of a sudden want to put up this velvet rope for people they feel are deserving of rights. I dunno, I think we should be more tolerant toward ALL people who get oppressed. People of color, different nationalities. Whatever. I'm with you!
I wish title 7 was exclusive instead of inclusive, and by exclusive I mean exclude nobody! :3
edit: For folks who aren't entirely familiar with Title VII of US Civil Rights Act of 1964 (http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm)
We regularly have a situation where the 'star' demands a private bathroom, or just wants to use the one that doesn't resemble a prison jail break like the backstage men's room at the Warfield does. So we give them the woman's room, which is a lot nicer, and the men's room becomes unisex. Everyone gets over it.
I don't give a flying fig who (of any gender ID) uses the same bathroom as me as long as I can do what I need to do and leave without incident. My preference is to use the ladies' just because it is the "correct" one for the true me, but I would have no problem using a multi-stall unisex bathroom like the ones I've heard exist in some parts of some other countries as long as it was safe for me to do so. My biggest concern is "will somebody try to beat me to death against the sink if I use this bathroom?" If so, I evaluate my other options and choose the one involving the least risk to my health.
Of course, my clubbing days are behind me and, except for my current and hopefully soon to be former job, I generally don't have reason to go to the places where I am most likely to be at risk in the first place.
which restroom?
The one that is closest when you arrive at critical mass :o
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 08:35:43 AM
Women dont want men in the women's restroom, its pretty simple really. You know it is.
Of course it's simple.
Where the problem arises is: how some people here define women. What's sad to see is so many post op women on this board saying: -anything less than post op = man-.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 08:35:43 AM
Women dont want men in the women's restroom, its pretty simple really. You know it is.
That's the exact phrase conservative people and lawmakers say about us.
It's a shame when we start saying the exact same thing.
everything you stated in your conclusions is still the same thing society says against us as trans people.
There's a saying: "what's the difference between a Crossdresser and a Transsexual?" The answer is three years.
Who are we to judge the thinkings of a particular crossdresser.
It's interesting how we change our values when we reach certain milestones in our gender expressions. It's also more interesting how quickly such a judged group of people can so easily do the same thing: judge back.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 11:25:55 AM
Yes, it is interesting that we all have opinions.
as does Michelle Bachmannk, Pat Roberston, and Michelle's husband who stated: "Homosexuals are barbarians who need to be educated and disciplined."
I'm definitely uncomfortable with the idea of a bloke in the women's washroom. However, the person's safety is more important than my comfort. A crossdresser, especially one who passes well, is going to be running a risk to their physical well being walking into the men's room.
We have a right to BE safe. We don't have a right to FEEL safe - especially not when that comes at the expense of ACTUAL safety for someone else.
I also used the men's for 27 years (well, excepting infancy) despite being a girl. I did this because I was presenting as a guy (crossdressing, in fact) and going into the women's would have been dangerous. Haven't most trans women done this? Entered men-only spaces? Seems vaguely hypocritical to complain about other people using a bathroom not associated with their gender.
This would all become a non-issue if unisex bathrooms (with full doors) became the norm.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 11:31:58 AM
As do millions of women around the world (desiring their restroom for their use).
Michelle Bachmann and many others would see you as a man in a dress who got a sex change but a man nevertheless. What would you say to her then?
If you were born in Ohio or Tennessee you cannot change your gender on your birth certificate. What would you say to them?
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 11:37:04 AM
(sigh) Your making this to be about me, instead of those tens of millions of women who want their restroom.
I dont think this discussion is going anywhere other than a personal attack. I've been clear. I think we are done.
I'm not making this about you. You just happen to be against it and posting so I am posting back. Im comparing the ideologies of trans people who do not allow CDs into the bathroom of their gender presentation as the same as society who does the same against trans people.
The hypocrisy is so thick you can swim in it.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 11:41:26 AM
You wish to de-segregate bathrooms. Good luck with that.
I believe in equal rights of gender expression that isn't just afforded to an elite minority of a sub group.
Back in the 70s and 80s people said the same against us (transsexuals)"good luck with that."
But I am a big believer in human rights and the ability of progression when it comes to basic human rights.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 12:04:02 PM
I disagree with that. I was never a crossdresser in my life, I never had an interest in clothing and crossdressing, I just never did it. I didnt crossdress until I transitioned. There was no graduation. I am binary identified and have always been.
OK this is interesting. At what point did you self ID as being a woman or did you discover your gender is female but you body is male? You say you have always been binary so did you have a male gender/male body before you transitioned?
And I have no doubt that you never cross dressed or showed any part of your true gender until you could be stealth about it. But just because YOU didn't cross dress before you transitioned doesn't mean that many others didn't started out cross dressing and then figured out there is more to it than just the clothes.
And no I am not painting all post-ops as people who fight against other people's human rights. Just you and a few others here are doing this and all are post-op.
Oh, the doors came off the stalls not out of safety concerns but due to Big Brothers continuing effort to try to prove they didn't lose the war on drugs some twenty, thirty, forty years ago. The clubs were very safe, the kind of people who go to those kind of events are not the fighting gang-bangers (or even worse, the suburban wantabe gangsters), or rednecks but the ravers/burners/gay dance scene/ClubKids. Really, when was the last time anyone who you thought of as being threatening was in a car/truck blasting some Paul Oakenfold or Sasha and Digweed? Never? Sounds right. The 'unsafe' people tend to like hip-hop, heavy metal, or country and western. On a personal safety level I can't think of anyone less threatening to other people than some E-tard tripping balls on Ecstasy or Special K.
Of course drug use has not seemed to drop one iota, but we're all a lot more comfortable peeing in front of each other. Law of unexpected consequences I guess. Of course a lot of the dancers are wearing not much beyond their bra and panties in the first place so modesty wasn't an issue to begin with.
Now, this is a very rarefied atmosphere and about as far from 'the general public' as you can get.
And the way things are going in the world, you're going to be damn lucky to have a pot to piss in at all, forget segregating it.
I can't stand people who ask for equality (as long as it benefits them)... There are places in the US that do not have segregated bathrooms and there are not more problems there then any other place has, a criminal will be a criminal and so it becomes an issue of perceived safety not actual safety. There was a saying during the civil rights movement, "Separate is not equal".
I also can't stand the elitist attitude of a lot of people that are not "gender conforming". your not better then anyone else just because you had the ability to come out have surgery and be done with it, some of us have to struggle through several awkward stages to get to the same place you are now. so I shouldn't be able to use the women's room simple because I have a penis? but I am a woman...
Bottom line I don't really care who uses what bathroom (as many women feel perfectly fine using the men's room if there is a line for the women's), as long as your there for the intended purpose... any argument to the contrary is hate mongering in my eyes. Now perverts are a whole separate discussion and having a sign that says "Women's" is not going to stop them, and that's just the truth of the matter.
I don't mind which restroom someone uses as long as they don't harass anyone and don't wreck the place.
It would be hard (and morally wrong, IMO) to exclude male identified CD/TV without also causing problems for female identified TG/TS. How is one going to know a stranger's gender identity in a public restroom without rudely questioning them? If someone just needs a restroom to use and isn't causing problems it shouldn't matter what the sign on the door says.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 01:19:05 PM
so did you have a male gender/male body before you transitioned?
Yes, my body and sex was male, hence male to female. I'm not ashamed to say it, it was the circumstance of my birth. Why are we arguing semantics of transsexuality? There is such a thing known as MtF and FtM, and they mean exactly that. Male to Female. There is nothing for any of us to be ashamed of. It isnt our fault we were born this way.
But just because YOU didn't cross dress before you transitioned doesn't mean that many others didn't started out cross dressing and then figured out there is more to it than just the clothes.
I was referring to Annah's assumptions that all transsexuals start out as crossdressers. (her reference to the difference between the two is 3 years)
I can't stand people...
I also can't stand the elitist attitude...
As a reminder, please keep the posts about the topic itself and your own views pertaining to it and not direct slams against people that have opposing views. It tends to cause others to not want to post for fear of being slammed likewise.
but I am a woman...
Then use the women's restroom dear.
Valerie
p.s. I try hard in my posts to keep my comments and opinions in the first person about myself and my views and not about other peoples opinions, views or life choices, out of respect. I use the word me and I, trying not to attack other people. We are a diverse group and all views are valid and welcome.
Not trying to slam anyone, my issue is not with you. My issue is with communities that segregate themselves from each other and then bash the other groups. it's high school all over again. I started as a cross dresser before I discovered what it was I was really feeling, and even now most people see me as a drag queen. All I am saying as TS/TG/CD/ or whatever other initials anyone wants to put in this list, who cares? as long as they are using the restroom/ changing room/ where ever for it's intended purpose, why make issue? How is someone going to know I'm TS and not a CD or a Drag queen? If all I wanna do is relive myself why shouldn't I?
I'm going to have to drag Marlo Thomas out of retirement and have her make Free To Pee, You and Me.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 11:55:59 PM
when it comes to transvestites, who do not identify as the opposite sex, which restroom should be used if and/or when in public? Same question for crossdressers?
Not to interupt, well OK, to interupt, but a quick review of the original post shows a rather narrow question. We have drifted a bit far afield here. Guilty as self-charged undoubtedly, but we got into "yeah but if someone's lipstick is a little bold, their eyelashes too extreme and maybe, just maybe their genitals don't match our qualifications for admitance to our private club, er, restroom, some mythical observer may be prepared to be offended." And as we all know, people who are easily offended are too easily encountered.
I guess, to me if I encounter someone in the women's room that might appear not up to my gender standards, I ask myself, "are they there for the purpose intended for the room, or possibly for personal perversion satisfaction. It happens, but I've never seen it. But then, I try to avoid restrooms with questionable atmosphere as a matter of human safety, not just sexual safety. If they pee, they belong; if they spend the time looking me up-and-down, they don't. Nor do I.
Susan Kay
Quote from: Stephe on August 28, 2011, 12:32:01 PM
OK this is interesting. At what point did you self ID as being a woman or did you discover your gender is female but you body is male? You say you have always been binary so did you have a male gender/male body before you transitioned?
I realize this was directed at Valerie, but remember a lot of us ID in different ways. As far as I'm concerned I was never male, because my brain was always physically female. I had aspects to my body that are not traditionally female that I wanted corrected (and some still needing to be corrected), but the control system remains the same. To put it bluntly, cutting off a guy's penis does not make him female, any more than cutting off mine will. And ya, I'm binary as all hell, obviously.
It's part of the reason I find the conversation a bit bizarre. You want to worry about men using women's washrooms? Go harass the trans guys who aren't out yet. :P
Marlo Thomas is retired?
Susan Kay
I believe TV & CD's should use the restroom congruent with their sex
and not their presentation BECAUSE they do not identify as the opposite sex..... This opinion
Does not have a f'ing thing to do with being post op!!
When it comes to anti-discrimination legislation, TV & CD's should be permitted to
express themselves in the way they dress.....
Oh, and Anna, I never crossdressed either before going fulltime.
Certain members on here need to stop attacking other members because
our opinions differ!!!
Marlo Thomas is retired?
At first I was going to write 'dig up Marlo Thomas' but I checked and she's not dead yet.
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 12:04:02 PM
You have made a few references I would like to respond to before closing.
You are making the assumption that transsexual people start as crossdressers then graduate to transsexual status.
I disagree with that. I was never a crossdresser in my life, I never had an interest in clothing and crossdressing, I just never did it. I didnt crossdress until I transitioned. There was no graduation. I am binary identified and have always been.
*This is directed at those who believe that Crossdressers should not have the right to use the bathroom and it is not directed at any one person.
Many many many many crossdressers realize they are transsexuals after they do it for awhile. For some its pretty instantaneous. For others it takes years. Furthermore, what they call "crossdressing" may well be an unconscious desire to fit into their female persona and it isn't until they realize they are transsexual that they begin to understand they weren't crossdressing but, rather, they were dressing to be themselves. You are in no moral authority to dictate to any crossdresser who is or who is not who they claim to be. I still stand behind my comment that the majority of many crossdressers realize that after some time, their gender fluidity is a lot more complicated than putting on a dress. When I mean complicated I mean this:
I knew I was a girl since I was four. However I know some trans girls who didn't feel that way until they were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and so one. Who am I to question their sincerity of gender expression?
Also, I loved presenting as male. I have three beautiful children from it. If I had a time machine, I would do it all over again. Many trans, if taken the chance, would redo their gender expression at puberty. Either way is correct and to judge one over the other is not a good idea.
When do you consider its ok for someone to pee in the bathroom? Do you need to here them audibly say "I am a woman?" Do they need legal work? Identification to show they have changed their gender status? A letter from a psychologist? Where do you draw the line? What if the crossdresser says she identifies as a woman because she is dressed now but a man when she is dressed as a man? Do you deny the existence of bi gender and gender fluid spectrums?
Or should they get their own little water fountain in the back too?
Likewise, who are we to tell a Crossdresser how they should act or think?
You should think outside the box and realize that not everyone has the same gender definitions as you. And to deny CDs the right to pee in a gender assigned bathroom of their presentation is just not right. I still stand behind my comments that any trans who deny CDs the right to pee in the bathroom in the gender they present under have some underlying prejudices against the crossdressing community. That, I will not waiver.
I wont even ask what are the opinions concerning gender fluid or bi genders/non genders role and the bathroom scenarios are (directed towards those who believe that a Crossdresser does not have the right to use the bathroom in their gender presentation). I think I would cringe over the opinions given.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 28, 2011, 02:15:38 PM
I believe TV & CD's should use the restroom congruent with their sex
and not their presentation BECAUSE they do not identify as the opposite sex.....
And you know they don't identify as the opposite sex because?
The reason people get "attacked" is for statements like the above.
If they truly were "transsexual" they wouldn't be transvestites or crossdressers. If they did identify as the opposite sex, they wouldn't be labeled as transvestites or crossdressers now would they per what is being taught in psych, abnormal psych, human sexuality, child growth and development courses as well as what is in the DSM-IV manual
Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 01:19:05 PM
so did you have a male gender/male body before you transitioned?
Yes, my body and sex was male, hence male to female. I'm not ashamed to say it, it was the circumstance of my birth. Why are we arguing semantics of transsexuality? There is such a thing known as MtF and FtM, and they mean exactly that. Male to Female. There is nothing for any of us to be ashamed of. It isnt our fault we were born this way.
I was born female gender in a male body. There was no point that my gender changed, just my appearance morphed over time. I've read people say things like "I became a woman when they legally put a F on my ID" etc. That sorta thing didn't happen to me. Very little about me other than my appearance has changed. I totally agree that this is nothing to be ashamed of, not sure everyone here actually feels that way, but that is drifting off topic.
Back on topic, it got to a point where people would stop me when I tried to go to the mens room. I think that's kinda a clue that I was using the wrong one. I'm not sure I would fit into your rules on defining someone as a woman but there are people out there who would question if any MTF is really a woman. I guess I'm shocked seeing that sort of judgmental attitude coming from people who themselves have had gender issues.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 28, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
If they truly were "transsexual" they wouldn't be transvestites or crossdressers. If they did identify as the opposite sex, they wouldn't be labeled as transvestites or crossdressers now would they per what is being taught in psych, abnormal psych, human sexuality, child growth and development courses as well as what is in the DSM-IV manual
Based on this logic it is impossible for a Crossdresser to really be a transsexual.
The DSM-IV never states a CD could never be a trans and it also states the recognition of gender fluidity.
And I am sure you will say "you never ever have cross dressed in your entire life before you transitioned either." Well, there is a reason for this.....what you had originally thought of crossdressing you now realized you were dressing to your gender identification. To an outsider who isn't trans or knows very little about trans, you and I are just as much as a crossdresser as the ones you are denying bathroom rights to.
This is why I cannot stand labels. It gives people a foothold over others and it gives strengths to prejudice and bigotry.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 28, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
If they truly were "transsexual" they wouldn't be transvestites or crossdressers. If they did identify as the opposite sex, they wouldn't be labeled as transvestites or crossdressers now would they per what is being taught in psych, abnormal psych, human sexuality, child growth and development courses as well as what is in the DSM-IV manual
So who labeled them a cross dresser? Given many have never been to therapy, how do you know they wouldn't be labeled a transsexual officially? Do you know that this person who appears to "be a crossdresser" isn't actually a TS tracked for surgery in 4 months?
Do you think people should be required to carry a letter from a therapist before they enter this sacred ground to pee?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 28, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
If they truly were "transsexual" they wouldn't be transvestites or crossdressers. If they did identify as the opposite sex, they wouldn't be labeled as transvestites or crossdressers now would they per what is being taught in psych, abnormal psych, human sexuality, child growth and development courses as well as what is in the DSM-IV manual
This seems rather circular to me. Quite a lot of TS gals are labeled by others as CD or man-in-a-dress, for bathroom purposes.
Folks, please be careful in this thread. So far, I see a lot of dissent, which is fine. Please continue to keep it reasonably civil, speak from the first person, and avoid pointing fingers at other members (ooh, that came out wrong...)
Moral Panic. This is a constant in how our culture responds to new things that potentially could significantly impact how society works, and it is almost always played out with using fear of possible vulnerabilities of women and children to regulate access to these new ideas and technology.
When we started to electrify homes there was this idea that predators will be able to tell if you were home. They'd be able to see the women and children inside and these predators that were supposedly lurking everywhere would attack.
When passenger trains were first being introduced there was an opinion out there that women's bodies were not designed to go at 50 miles an hour. Their uteruses would fly out of their bodies. Really.
For many years after the internet was launched there was a fear that it would serve as the perfect interface for sexual predators to find and seduce children. In reality, years later, still, as before, the person most likely to sexually assault children is somebody that knows them in real life. Family and friends, etc.
If a gay couple raised a child, that child will surely grow up to be homosexual.
I'm just pointing out that this happens, predictably. I'm not taking a side really. I mean at least not with the sides that people within our community take on this issue. I think those people outside our community using the "politics of pee" to push-back against trans people would have me use the men's restroom, which would be humiliating for me. That isn't to mention that having somebody looking like me go into that space would be uncomfortable for everybody involved. So I do take a strong stance against that.
Also, for the argument that is going on within our community, I would just ask that if you take a strong stand that you be sure to look with empathy at how the people on the other side of the argument feel and make sure to ask yourself how you would handle them fairly.
The idea that all crossdressers are all burly men in skirts that can handle themselves if their "fetish" gets them into trouble is probably not correct or fair on many levels. Where would you have androgynes go to the restroom? On the other side, should somebody that doesn't identify as a woman be allowed to invade women's spaces? Should somebody that hasn't had bottom surgery be allowed to be naked in a locker room with the sex they identify as? If not, what about FTMs? Bottom surgery is something they often elect against due to the limits of current technology.
Just make sure to consider all views with empathy for everybody is all I'm asking. Try not to view outliers as exemplifying the norm from either group. The extreme people are the loudest and their ridiculous arguments often drive the discourse, and that isn't fair. Anyway, I don't think there is one right answer to this debate, really, but there are plenty of wrong answers. Let's not get focused on those.
The rest room often comes up here on Susan's, and no doubt it will continue to come up as long as there are members here on this board. My own opinion is that no matter if you are here and identify as TS/CD/TV, Post-op it's a matter of passing in the general public. If you pass without any problems then there are no problems; go for it, no one will be any the wiser, but as I've said before, do so at your own peril. Additionally, being Post-op doesn't guarantee you won't encounter problems as there are those who even being post op still have some difficulty passing in an enclosed environment such as the washroom.
For the general public their situation is simple; men use the mens room and women use the women's room, plain and simple. I think it would be safe to say that many feel this way about gendered washrooms, no matter what rights have been bestowed on the TG community, and they are going to continue to think this way until the general public changes their opinion, their social upbringing, their moral beliefs etc. and this is something legislation can't do.
Even if you are granted the right to use the washroom of the gender you present as, or identify with, we do ourselves no good by entering such places if we don't pass. We constantly push out need for our rights and freedoms, but at the same time we need to consider others who we wish to share our lives with.
I know that this may sound harsh but if you don't pass then stay out.
Quote from: Steph on August 29, 2011, 09:56:10 AM
For the general public their situation is simple; men use the mens room and women use the women's room, plain and simple.
But this is premised entirely upon how one defines "men" and "women." There are those who will consider TS women to be men even if some day medicine can grow a uterus and ovaries from our own stem cells and implant them.
Quote
I know that this may sound harsh but if you don't pass then stay out.
I dated a cis woman who didn't always "pass" as a woman; tall, thin, chiseled features. This philosophy that passing is the standard by which your rights become real is beauty privilege and nothing more.
Use what you identify with. Your right to be safe trumps the non-right of everyone feeling comfortable at all times.
Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 29, 2011, 10:52:31 AM
But this is premised entirely upon how one defines "men" and "women." There are those who will consider TS women to be men even if some day medicine can grow a uterus and ovaries from our own stem cells and implant them.
No it depends on how the general public defines men and women, not how individuals define them.
QuoteI dated a cis woman who didn't always "pass" as a woman; tall, thin, chiseled features. This philosophy that passing is the standard by which your rights become real is beauty privilege and nothing more.
Use what you identify with. Your right to be safe trumps the non-right of everyone feeling comfortable at all times.
There are men and women out there who look feminine and masculine it will always be that way, it's something they have to deal with. They have all the rights naturally assigned to their gender but still it's how they are perceived by the general public were they encounter problems.
Quote from: Steph on August 29, 2011, 11:05:44 AM
No it depends on how the general public defines men and women, not how individuals define them.
It's not the general public who is a threat; it's one person with a very narrow view of gender who then takes it upon themselves to do something to you.
Quote
There are men and women out there who look feminine and masculine it will always be that way, it's something they have to deal with. They have all the rights naturally assigned to their gender but still it's how they are perceived by the general public were they encounter problems.
So would you tell such cis people to use the opposite restroom, thus making everyone look at them differently and make entirely different assumptions about them and their sex? Or does this rule only apply to trans people who don't pass?
Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 29, 2011, 11:12:49 AM
It's not the general public who is a threat; it's one person with a very narrow view of gender who then takes it upon themselves to do something to you.
So would you tell such cis people to use the opposite restroom, thus making everyone look at them differently and make entirely different assumptions about them and their sex? Or does this rule only apply to trans people who don't pass?
We're not talking about cis people (I hate that word cis) we're talking about those in the TG community. While cics people may have masculine and feminine feature there is no doubt they are cis.
Quote from: Steph on August 29, 2011, 11:59:33 AM
We're not talking about cis people (I hate that word cis) we're talking about those in the TG community. While cics people may have masculine and feminine feature there is no doubt they are cis.
The point of saying she didn't pass is that her masculine features often
did raise doubts, and if she were to have walked into the men's restroom it would have solidified the image in the minds of anyone who saw her that she was somewhere under the TG umbrella, most likely a trans woman, even though she wasn't at all.
The same thing happens when a trans person uses the restroom of their assigned sex. It undermines them in the minds of others. Their actions are saying, "Yes, I'm
really just a femme guy who likes women's clothes," or "Yes, I'm
really just a butch chick who likes hanging with the boys." It's the see-I-told-you-so moment for anyone who sees them. Even if they were passing before (but they themselves weren't sure so they used the restroom of their assigned sex), suddenly they're very much not.
I'm not out to desegregate restrooms, but gender policing is harmful all around. The only person who can truly decide which is the most appropriate one for them is the person themselves because whenever you try to draw a line,
someone, cis and trans, ends up on the wrong side of it.
Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 29, 2011, 01:06:44 PM
The only person who can truly decide which is the most appropriate one for them is the person themselves because whenever you try to draw a line, someone, cis and trans, ends up on the wrong side of it.
I could not agree more.
Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 29, 2011, 01:06:44 PM
The point of saying she didn't pass is that her masculine features often did raise doubts, and if she were to have walked into the men's restroom it would have solidified the image in the minds of anyone who saw her that she was somewhere under the TG umbrella, most likely a trans woman, even though she wasn't at all.
With all due respect there are a lot of assumptions in your statement, and I expect they are based on hearsay and what has been read or written. Why on earth would a cis woman walk into a mens restroom, that's just speculation, unless there's a line up at the ladies (which there usually is) which caused her to take advantage.
QuoteThe same thing happens when a trans person uses the restroom of their assigned sex. It undermines them in the minds of others. Their actions are saying, "Yes, I'm really just a femme guy who likes women's clothes," or "Yes, I'm really just a butch chick who likes hanging with the boys." It's the see-I-told-you-so moment for anyone who sees them. Even if they were passing before (but they themselves weren't sure so they used the restroom of their assigned sex), suddenly they're very much not.
Again, this is just speculation, for those who pass then there are no problems, if you don't, use the restroom at your own peril.
QuoteI'm not out to desegregate restrooms, but gender policing is harmful all around. The only person who can truly decide which is the most appropriate one for them is the person themselves because whenever you try to draw a line, someone, cis and trans, ends up on the wrong side of it.
Of course it's up to the individual to decide which washroom to use but don't expect a warm welcome if you don't pass. There are no gender police to enforce legislation so go ahead take the plunge, just be careful.
I've been using gendered washrooms for years now, started shortly after I began my transition and now 6 years post-op. I haven't experienced any problems you are portraying except for one instance at a bar:
I had been going to the restroom and on the 3rd time I was stopped by the bouncer who told me there had been complaints, that a customer had said that she didn't think I should be using the Ladies. I asked the bouncer why they thought that and he said he didn't know other than there had been a complaint. I kinda guessed what it was about as although I passed pretty good back then I had obviously done something to arouse suspicion. I showed my drivers license which states that I was female and he let me pass. Now I am granted rights and freedoms under our Charter of Rights here in Canada so as there were no human rights lawyers waiting in line at the washroom I had defend myself.
I feel we may be doing a hatless jig here, so I'll simply bow to your wisdom and experience.
Just be careful.
There is just as much if not more danger in using the men's room while presenting female. I have personally been assaulted by some very narrow minded people and the fact that other people were around may have been the difference between I bit of bruising and my life. I think I will take a verbal scolding from some ladies over a beating by some bigot any day.
Quote from: missjanealice on August 29, 2011, 04:36:29 PM
There is just as much if not more danger in using the men's room while presenting female. I have personally been assaulted by some very narrow minded people and the fact that other people were around may have been the difference between I bit of bruising and my life. I think I will take a verbal scolding from some ladies over a beating by some bigot any day.
You were certainly lucky to come away with a bruising. When and where did this happen? It would be helpful to others in avoiding such situations in the future.
On there other hand my girlfriend and I, along with our hubby's recently attended a Peter Frampton concert at the Molson A Theatre in Toronto, this past July (Fabulous by-the-way) during the intermission the line up for the women's was ridiculous so we both went into the mens - No problem from any one — safety in numbers.
But this is getting a little off topic...
Quote from: Steph on August 29, 2011, 04:50:58 PM
You were certainly lucky to come away with a bruising. When and where did this happen? It would be helpful to others in avoiding such situations in the future.
On there other hand my girlfriend and I, along with our hubby's recently attended a Peter Frampton concert at the Molson A Theatre in Toronto, this past July (Fabulous by-the-way) during the intermission the line up for the women's was ridiculous so we both went into the mens - No problem from any one — safety in numbers.
But this is getting a little off topic...
In the middle of the local mall, I doubt that it was avoidable.
When I'm presenting as a woman, I'll use the women's restroom, its just makes sense.