saying goodbye to my friends I've made here. some of my comments I leave are based on my opinions and my personal experiences......I've been attacked, labled with certain terms and some comments drastically misinterpreted. I am a human being with feelings and now as a result of some of these attacks, am questioning if I really want to continue on. Its the perfect reason why the whole LGBT community will remain deeply fragmented.
Thanks for pushing me to this point!
I have read several of your postiings and I can truly say that I will miss your insightful thoughts and hope you will reconsider your decision. I am sure there are many others here that you have helped in the past. Too many to let a few opinionated people shouldn't be allowed to drive anyone away. I hope you come back soon.
I do not understand why, I thought the comments from you that I've read have been very insightful. I'm sorry you feel this way. :(
It's just a small example of how people can not tolerate dissent anymore, you can see it writ large in the current political situation, or at sporting events. Ever smaller groups of people splintering into ever smaller units. Divide and conquer.
If you can't handle a different viewpoint from your own, don't worry, there's somebody with a blog somewhere that agrees with you.
Yeah, it's called the 'echo chamber' effect. Everyone agrees, anyone who is outside the range gets zotted, or kicked out, or whatever. It's like stupidity, but squared.
Sorry to hear it.
My own often different socialization doesn't make it always easy for me either.
I guess it's impossible not to run into some dissent if you leave main-stream opinions.
Granted, we also do not ALWAYS get right either.
It's a give and take as is the case with most relationships.
Sorry, it was enough to get you discouraged enough to chuck it in hon.
Thoughtful... and good luck for the future,
Axelle
Sorry to hear this Jamie, I appreciate robust discussion and I see no reason for people to be 'nasty' with it at all. Do reconsider and if people do get nasty, report it to a mod straight away.
I like your posts, they are interesting and thoughtful
Cindy
Quote from: Cindy James on August 22, 2011, 01:53:17 AM
Sorry to hear this Jamie, I appreciate robust discussion and I see no reason for people to be 'nasty' with it at all. Do reconsider and if people do get nasty, report it to a mod straight away.
I like your posts, they are interesting and thoughtful
Cindy
Ditto i totally agree
Awww, well, I am gonna miss you. I understand though, do what you have to do to be happy, and never let anyone bring you down. Thanks for answering my questions about Dr. Saran you have given me more options to consider in my own transition.
I wish you the best I really do, we need more people like you, willing to share personal information for the sake of informing people, and willing to put forth unpopular and popular opinions so that people are better informed.
Solidarity doesn't necessarily require absolute homogeneity. How we handle disagreements is what decides whether or not we end up fragmented.
gonna miss you :(
since i have been on this website i have enjoyed all your posts i hope you have a good life mwa :-*
ps i know what you mean i have had the same thing ... should have 6 smites but i got 4 of the 6 removed because i am entitled to my opinion yet simple minded ppl ruin this site but not trying to understand everyone's opinions :( pls reconsider your a true and sweet person :)
Jamie, being on a forum (which is BTW on a medium that is rife with omnipotent, fearless, warriors who would cower at the thought of saying to your face what they say online) requires one to understand the person sitting at their keyboard typing away whatever they feel like typing, does in no way define you. Nor can they make you wrong, stupid, ugly, ignorant or unimportant. In fact they have absolutely no effect on you, unless you let them.
But we can always allow them to be right when they see us as beautiful people. :D
Consider staying. Illegitimi non carborundum
I'm sad to see yet another post-op leave, but I completely understand your feelings. As Julie said, pretentious people abound in these places. But I've been here a while and I've seen this: all those people eventually leave, to be replaced with even more pretentious people, lol.
I found this old post here; the whole thing was rather sad, but I couldn't say it any better than this:
Quote from: Lisbeth on August 22, 2005, 09:39:07 AMThen there are those who are beyond caring about labels, the ones who no longer have a need to come back because the community no longer provides what they need. Some linger for a time because of a sense of nostalgia, but they all eventually leave.
I have seen many, many who have gone beyond needing Susan's. Some of them I miss very much. Soon I will be one of them. In my time lingering here I have found so many of the vital topics of the day to be unutterably boring, and so many of the guardians of truth and morality to be insufferably full of themselves. You see, I have a life now, and I don't need anyone to guide me on my path for however many months or years I have left.
Illegitimi non carborundum indeed.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 21, 2011, 06:37:53 PM
saying goodbye to my friends I've made here. some of my comments I leave are based on my opinions and my personal experiences......I've been attacked, labled with certain terms and some comments drastically misinterpreted. I am a human being with feelings and now as a result of some of these attacks, am questioning if I really want to continue on. Its the perfect reason why the whole LGBT community will remain deeply fragmented.
Thanks for pushing me to this point!
You say yes, I say no.
You say stop and I say go go go, oh no.
You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello hello
I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
Hello hello
I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
I say high, you say low
You say why and I say I don't know, oh no
You say goodbye and I say hello
(Hello Goodbye Hello Goodbye) hello hello
(Hello Goodbye) I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
(Hello Goodbye Hello Goodbye) hello hello
(Hello Goodbye) I don't know why you say goodbye
(Hello Goodbye) I say hello
Why why why why why why do you say goodbye goodbye, oh no?
You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello hello
I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
Hello hello
I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
You say yes (I say "yes") I say no (but I may mean no.)
You say stop (I can stay) and I say go go go (till it's time to go ), oh no no
You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello hello
I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
Hello hello
I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
Hello hello
I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello hello
Hellooooo
Hela hey helloa
Hela hey helloa Cha Cha Cha
Hela hey helloa Whooo
Hela hey helloa Hela
Hela hey helloa Cha Cha Cha
Hela hey helloa Whooo
Hela hey helloa Cha Cha
Hela hey helloa
Hello now we are all getting to know you more personally so don't say goodbye while we say hello ;)
I want to thank everyone for their support thru comments to this thread and PM's. But, I will say that I am still on the fence with my decision. I had marked my account for deletion but will ponder my decision a few days.
I will say this.......everybody is unique in what they bring to the table in the form of experiences, opinions and advice. NOBODY, and I mean nobody, should ever be attacked or persecuted because their opinions and/or comments go against the grain. I've seen where this has happened to quite a few members.
For those who like to do this, I will offer this advice:
Everything in this world is not always viewed in black and white......there is alot of gray area in everything and it is in this gray area where we see alot of diversity in thought and that is what makes conversation so stimulating. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong but when you attack and insist that others are wrong because you disagree, that is where YOU are wrong. To label someone a bigot because their opinions are different than yours? I doubt very highly that anyone on here is a bigot. Then even worse, when you have some education and try to make yourself sound more intelligent than you are and use that as an excuse? My answer is "whatever!"
There's no secret that the whole LGBT community is deeply fragmented......when you ridicule and attack other members because their opinions are different, you do nothing but add to that fragmentation. At a time when we need unity to advance anti-discrimination legislation, the very last thing we need is to be fragmented. If we ourselves cannot remain united, how the hell do we expect our elected officials to unite behind such legislation?
Your solution to a fragmented community is to leave, thereby making it more fragmented?
While fragmentation is a very big issue, so is a lack of accurate information, which is often what some of that fragmentation is the result of. As for "nobody is right and nobody is wrong," there are degrees of accuracy, with some arguments and information being more accurate than others. Our community needs greater access to accurate information that is relevant to us, and we need more trans people playing a bigger role in the production of knowledge trans related and gender related. What we don't need is misinformation. Instead of eschewing those who have more information and education, and accusing them of trying to sound smarter than they are, perhaps we should look to them for inspiration in learning more about our own community; the details of the issues that affect us; the intersectionalities of race, social class, and sexual orientation and how these impact our community; and how we might solve the problems we face and promote education outside of our community. I see this as a far greater solution to fragmentation than simply bailing when there's a little friction, which there will probably always be. Do you think there was no fragmentation among African Americans in the civil rights movement? The gay rights movement? The feminist movement has been extremely fragmented for decades. There will probably always be some level of fragmentation. The issue is to what extent and how we respond to it.
Furthermore, please don't trivialize my education. I've worked extremely hard for years and have overcome considerable odds against me. And please don't trivialize education in general, either. Considering that our educational system is continuously being defunded, the last thing this country needs (assuming you're in the U.S.) is for people to begin to think there's no value in receiving an education.
You know I have been here for a very short time, I won't pretend to know you as well as everyone here, but I would to just like to say from what I have read of your posts you are a great asset, you are a great person. Your thoughts have always seemed very well written and never black or white you always allow room for others thoughts, in short you are open minded, if you do decide to leave I'll miss that. I have noticed cracks in the community that do make us fragmented but removing a piece of a mirror does not in any way make it easier to fix it to, make it wholesome and reflect our true community.
We'll if you do leave I wish you peace & rest, if you don't I hope for the best :)
Quote from: valyn_faer on August 25, 2011, 11:26:30 AM
Your solution to a fragmented community is to leave, thereby making it more fragmented?
While fragmentation is a very big issue, so is a lack of accurate information, which is often what some of that fragmentation is the result of. As for "nobody is right and nobody is wrong," there are degrees of accuracy, with some arguments and information being more accurate than others. Our community needs greater access to accurate information that is relevant to us, and we need more trans people playing a bigger role in the production of knowledge trans related and gender related. What we don't need is misinformation. Instead of eschewing those who have more information and education, and accusing them of trying to sound smarter than they are, perhaps we should look to them for inspiration in learning more about our own community; the details of the issues that affect us; the intersectionalities of race, social class, and sexual orientation and how these impact our community; and how we might solve the problems we face and promote education outside of our community. I see this as a far greater solution to fragmentation than simply bailing when there's a little friction, which there will probably always be. Do you think there was no fragmentation among African Americans in the civil rights movement? The gay rights movement? The feminist movement has been extremely fragmented for decades. There will probably always be some level of fragmentation. The issue is to what extent and how we respond to it.
Furthermore, please don't trivialize my education. I've worked extremely hard for years and have overcome considerable odds against me. And please don't trivialize education in general, either. Considering that our educational system is continuously being defunded, the last thing this country needs (assuming you're in the U.S.) is for people to begin to think there's no value in receiving an education.
I was referring to opinions when I mentioned that nobody is right and nobody is wrong. I to am college educated, working on my grad degree but that doesnt mean my thoughts and opinions trump anyone elses nor does it mean my thoughts and opinions carry more weight than others and unlike some members on here, you'll never hear me say "because I'm working on my grad degree, I know more than you do" type of ->-bleeped-<-.
Aside from that, you wanna know what really churns my stomach? The various comments I've seen on here throwing stones at us post up gals insinuating that we are "elitists" because we are post op.......sounds more like jealousy than anything and that churns my stomach like you would not believe.
I have my own opinions (as we all do) and thoughts and nobody should ever be attacked because they go against the norm....nobody. I have zero tolerance for ignorance.
I use my education and life experiences to help educate others speaking at many educational institutions. I sure dont do it for me as my journey is complete.........I do it for these same people whose own journey is still midstream or just beginning....these very same people that spew some of these hateful comments and attacks.
I think you should stay and visit the Androgyne section when you need a breather. Its an 'Alright' place where you are considered 'Alright' no matter your politics or opinions or looks or schooling. When you get to know us over there you realize everything is going to be 'Alright'.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 25, 2011, 04:58:02 PM
I was referring to opinions when I mentioned that nobody is right and nobody is wrong. I to am college educated, working on my grad degree but that doesnt mean my thoughts and opinions trump anyone elses nor does it mean my thoughts and opinions carry more weight than others and unlike some members on here, you'll never hear me say "because I'm working on my grad degree, I know more than you do" type of ->-bleeped-<-.
Aside from that, you wanna know what really churns my stomach? The various comments I've seen on here throwing stones at us post up gals insinuating that we are "elitists" because we are post op.......sounds more like jealousy than anything and that churns my stomach like you would not believe.
I have my own opinions (as we all do) and thoughts and nobody should ever be attacked because they go against the norm....nobody. I have zero tolerance for ignorance.
I use my education and life experiences to help educate others speaking at many educational institutions. I sure dont do it for me as my journey is complete.........I do it for these same people whose own journey is still midstream or just beginning....these very same people that spew some of these hateful comments and attacks.
Really when i got my operation most people said grat's but its not i know more then you kind of thing, something has to be said for experience and a lot of times people give advice only because they have been through it and want to help ease possible pain if they see you on a similar path that brought them pain. Opinions are just that opinions, however no one is right and no one is wrong is too broad a statement, one could say the earth is flat and they could be wrong, even if that is an opinion its not a correct one based on known facts of what can be proven. However if nothing can be proven then i see your point, its just opinion one person's point of view.
Really though, people see Post-ops as elitists.. that new to me.
Quote from: Izumi on August 25, 2011, 06:31:29 PMReally though, people see Post-ops as elitists.. that new to me.
I've seen all sorts of variations--people who think post-ops are acting elitist (sometimes I'd say they are and sometimes not), post-ops who I think are very compassionate and humble (I don't know if other folks agree), and post-ops who, in my opinion, really are acting elitist (whether they realize it or not).
I'm sure it's a different ballgame once you're post-SRS. Since I've been here, I've seen a few post-op women leave because the site just doesn't offer them much anymore--that is, perhaps I should say that they no longer need what the site has.
here is an example:
I believe, as my opinion, that ->-bleeped-<-s and crossdressers should be using the restroom based on their sex and not their presentation for the sole reason that they do not identify as the opposite sex......and in all honesty, 99.9% of whom will never plan to correct a congenital anomaly with their genitals.........
Because I am post op, I have been accused of being an elitist based on the above opinion....which I have zero tolerance for.
If we are to be accused of being "elitists".........it should never be based on what we think or what our opinions are but rather because the post op gals are part of a very very limited sorority having completed transition.......it is a very elite group of women.........in fact, I think that's how I'll start viewing it. when it's written as an attack, I'll process it as a compliment instead.......yes, I'm an elitist because I belong to a very elite group of post op women! lol
If you wanna see the real "elitists".....just look and see who attacks, argues and smites other members because their opinions are different......nuff said on that.
To say there are no post op elistists is folly. HOWEVER, there are elitists in every subgroup of the trans perspective too. If a trans is an elitist when she's pre op, she may very well likey be elitist after her surgery. You cannot deny there are no elitist in the trans community because they do exist.
Likewise, I have met very wonderful post op women. THANK GOD, the ones I know personally are all humble or "normal" about their situations. The post op woman who helped me on my own personal road is the most caring person I have literally met in my entire life. On the same coin, the most vindictive, arrogant people I have ever met are trans as well. You just got to weed out the ones who are not very kind and let them go.
When you state people have accused you of being elitist in some of your postings, then you have choices you can make. Ignore them, learn from them, disagree with them or continue to troll back and forth until someone gets the banstick. When you mentioned people have accused you of acting elitist in the CD vs TS issue and the bathrooms, your posts did sounded like they were elitist. Because I define "elitism" as someone who thinks they are better than another person. In this case, I saw that reflected in your posts against CD/TV. With a large CD community on this very website, you will naturally upset some people. However, you have the options to ignore what I said, learn from it, disagree or whatever your choice is.
The only suggestions I have is to word your phrases more carefully or think hard about the phrasing you want to use. If you truly get upset over a comment, mull it over for 30 minutes before posting back.
If you feel someone has given you a negative reputation because they were acting elitist, then contact the moderators about it. They will remove it. My negative ratings people used against me were removed because of the same situations.
just so I completely understand........you think I'm an "elitist" because I have an opinion that differs from yours in thinking that ->-bleeped-<-s should use the restroom congruent with their sex and not their presentation BECAUSE....they do not identify as the opposite sex? you think I'm a bigot for that opinion?
you think I'm an "elitist" because sometimes I leave open ended comments/questions that invoke the whole thought process?
would it be fair to say that in the paradigm of things, this type of thought is more congruent with "elitism" than anything else?
oh, please do elaborate
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 25, 2011, 10:08:27 PM
just so I completely understand........you think I'm an "elitist" because I have an opinion that differs from yours in thinking that ->-bleeped-<-s should use the restroom congruent with their sex and not their presentation BECAUSE....they do not identify as the opposite sex? you think I'm a bigot for that opinion?
you think I'm an "elitist" because sometimes I leave open ended comments/questions that invoke the whole thought process?
oh, please do elaborate
I think you misunderstood she said you came off as an elitist at some points in the argument because of phrasing, and quite honestly anything can be read off as elitist... like right now you may see me being an elitist because I am saying something you may think is basic and me saying something basic means I less of you, but honestly I am just typing this as my honest feelings with no ill will.
Quote from: Sam(my)I am on August 25, 2011, 10:22:32 PM
I think you misunderstood she said you came off as an elitist at some points in the argument because of phrasing, and quite honestly anything can be read off as elitist... like right now you may see me being an elitist because I am saying something you may think is basic and me saying something basic means I less of you, but honestly I am just typing this as my honest feelings with no ill will.
you got it :)
Quote from: Sam(my)I am on August 25, 2011, 10:22:32 PM
I think you misunderstood she said you came off as an elitist at some points in the argument because of phrasing, and quite honestly anything can be read off as elitist... like right now you may see me being an elitist because I am saying something you may think is basic and me saying something basic means I less of you, but honestly I am just typing this as my honest feelings with no ill will.
I'm pretty sure I know what I've read and didnt misunderstand anything as did several others
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 25, 2011, 10:38:57 PM
I'm pretty sure I know what I've read and didnt misunderstand anything as did several others
Oh, I meant you I think you misunderstood what Annah was saying she didn't call you elitist, as for others many can do that but as I said anything can come off as elitist or offensive. Take this as you will but this is a high strung community (stressed in general) so somethings can immediately come off as offensive, and then they imply you are elitist. Everything is perception unless clearly said, I think we as people really need to be more open and try to take careful steps with what we say and we all need to develop thicker skins, it can't hurt at least right?
All in all perception is key, I am not saying you lack perception but it is something we all have skewed unless something is clearly stated.
If nobody's saying goodbye, I'm locking this. It's run its course.