I have been out, as an honest tv, in Missouri since 1996. For the last 7 yrs I have lived with a lovely woman, who I have been totally honest with...about being tg. We are deeply in love and very happy. I have always said that for us tg to be accepted that we have to be out and honest. I have engorged my sister cd/tv to come out to help in the battle for our acceptance.
I thought I'd tell the negatives (get them out of the way) of my 9 yrs of being out.....and then in another post I will talk about the positives. These are negatives that are social.... lucky I don't have to deal with work related stuff...because I am self-employed.
What price have I paid for being out?
My woman (7yrs) worries about what others think.
She wishes we were more normal.
She says, we weird people out.
She gets frustrated with my insentience to be femme.
She feels the rejection more than me.
She fears for my/our safety, as I am proud and kind of push it.
Folks do reject us, as being "out there".
I lost a few really good friends....total unacceptance.
We are ostracized in public by those who know me....enfemm or not.
Men think they can flirt with my woman.
Some people HATE me.
No one understands me.
My social life is limited.
Even those who accept me...take a chance of someone they know who is un-accepting finding out.
My friends all take heat for being my friend.
I am considered 'out there'
Men are pushy wanting my woman...and think I'm kinky (I am not).
People think, "I'm gay."
People think "I choose to be tg'
My social life in limited
I have to be careful all the time.
Many consider me crazy. L
My family never visits me because they don't (or their kids) want to see me enfemme.
I could be asked to move out of my place if my landlord asked me too.
I draw in admirers....LOL and I am NOT into men.
Bi-dudes hit on my woman and me a lot.
I have to live two lives.
mmmmmm..........
I just cannot just be totally honest and accepted in our society, as I want to be.
Love
DebTV
PS I will post a positive being out post too! but lets wallor in the negative! LOL It is a fact.
Hello Deb
QuotePS I will post a positive being out post too! but lets wallor in the negative! LOL It is a fact.
I no need to wallow in the negative. Look for the positive. I'm going to wait for your next post :)
Chat later
Steph
Hi Deb,
You've described just about every fear that I have experienced. The only one nt there is tha my lady would leave me because she could not handle the pressure.
Both you and SO must be very much in love to survive all those negatives. I think that also your strength must influence others I know that I am more than merely impressed by it.
A couple of questions, why do men thnk it is alright to come on to a couple who are not one male one female in the hope of getting something?
Why is there an assumption that any other relationship is either sexually dysfunctional or other than manogamous.
Shelley
LOL Oh yeah...
One more....I can't believe I forgot this one!
My ex wife of 17 yrs left me and hates me for it.
My current SO was told from the beginning I was a tv. and yes I'm amazed that she is willing to take the "tg heat" to be with me! It does bother her what others think...but she loves me and is on my side.
Why do men come onto us? Well, probely because we both are real nice and my SO is a 24 yr old LOVELY, LONG HAIRED, BLONDE BABE.....lol And many wrongly ussume we must be more "open minded" because I'm TV.
Love
DebTV
Deb - Love you - You know that, as I have said it to you before....
You Wrote:
"I just cannot just be totally honest and accepted in our society, as I want to be."
As long as you are being totally honest and accepted by YOU, yourself, then what the hell else does it matter what anyone else thinks...
Please pardon the expression, but to hell with (applicable-as the shoe fits) the rest of society and all of the ignorant, hateful, misguided, bigoted, and miseducated people that dont have the slightest clue of the true quality of your life, your intelligence, your heart, or anything else about you from your own deeply personal perspective... They are still suffering in fear and total ignorance of the connectedness of all life that exists, no matter what form it takes externally, as well as the consequences that such fear and ingnorance will karmically unfold into their own lives as they go along and think well of themselves for still so being like this......
If this eventually puts you in danger or even injury or death because you are so unafraid to be and express yourself as yourself, at least you will leave this place being totally correct with yourself, and since it's YOUR life, and no one else's, you are the only one whose opinion truly matters when it comes to the line of living in truthfulness and unconditional self-acceptance.
Yes, the rejection, hatred, danger, weird looks, loss of friends, family, and others does, can, and will hurt, especially if you are a deeply loving and openhearted person of good and deep personal conscience, as you probably can't conceive of being that way towards others for just being themselves - but then again - OH WELL - that's their fluckin' problem and not yours/ours ultimately, even if someone else decides to try to make it your problem -
At least you can still close your eyes every single night of your life and know that you are doing right by the one that singly matters the most in your life - YOU...
How many others can truly and spiritually claim this every single day they are living ?
Even under fear of death or assault, will you give up and compromise the truth of your own personal self acceptance and now totally actualized self-acknowledgement that you have struggled deeply to earn and are now fully living in every single moment ? -
I think not....
When we let the uninformed, illegitimate, frequently hate-filled, and completely dogmatic thinking of others still stuck with all of their so-called "norms" of cultural, religious, and social structures of complete ignorance still so deeply ingrained, and allow ourselves to respond back in kind with anything less than loving, kindness, respect for all others, and good intelligence, then we begin to lose because we have given them all back the power over our thoughts and feelings, instead of fully claiming it for oursleves where it both belongs and originates from to begin with in the first place. We can and will then begin to lose everything that we have accomplished for the value of deep self-knowledge, self acceptance, and self-acknowledgement that we may have struggled for all of our lives to finally begin arriving at -
LET NO ONE into this castle - your castle - deep inside you - where your truth dwells, belongs, and originates from - it is the one place they cannot and will not EVER belong simply because it is YOURS and belongs to no one and nothing else in all of your whole entire existence...
They cannot, do not, and will not, EVER belong there, unless being properly and lovingly invited by whomsoever holds the key - YOU, and no one else....
Lovingly Always,
ChefAnnagirl
Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on September 22, 2005, 11:14:58 PM
As long as you are being totally honest and accepted by YOU, yourself, then what the hell else does it matter what anyone else thinks...
Does employment and physical safety ring a bell?
So, Leigh,
What exactly does that question have to do with the main point of focus in terms of being clear, powerfully self actualized, and true to one's life and conscience that I was trying to make ?
If you ask me, I think you must then believe more in being a victim and succumbing to harm and disempowerment by outside forces than being completely self examining, honest, responsible, aware, and self actualized enough to admit that there are things we all can do within and about ourselves, to improve our own lives and that of others in similar situations.
Granted, many people, myself included, must sometimes make deeply wrenching compromises to pacify others and societal conditons which surround us in order to make our journey smoother from time to time, but, that being said, If you are constantly afraid of being victimized by others for just being yourself, I beleive that we then give this thought the power to actualize and then therefore more greatly materialize in our lives.
Many people will not agree with this, as it assumes far too much personal responsibility for the power that our own thougths, fears, and actions or inactions have to effect our actual lives, but I still deeply believe this nonetheless, and have been given far more than adequate evidence of this experience in my own life to this point.
In my experience, even the very worst and most brutal experiences are ultimately chosen by some part of us, consciuosly or subconsciously, often as part of what I would have to call Karmic cause and effect in our lives as a result of our own thoughts, deeds, and actions, over time, even to the most minutiae of levels, whether you are willing to accept that or not.
Even the greatest of all the prophets of time immemorial told all the masses at one time or another that we were all more than capable of self-actualizng and creating our own "miracles" as it were.
If you feel you must for example, have to eventually transition, from say, a "normal" life, to a life of the opposite gender identity, will you not eventually have to take NO compromise from any employer in the world to fulfill the criteria to completion of certain goals ? Had you better already have counted on this and been prepared to move to another city or town if necessary in order to maintain employment and survivial at all costs if it is that important ?? Are you not capable, as an individual human being, of having or creating your very own really inspired ideas which might allow self employment to become an option or reality ?
Please,
both your question, and your logic, is insulting at best, and completely invalidating to anyone that will dare to hope and dream, and furthermore entirely supportive of exactly the kind of "sheep to the slaughter" and "lemming over the cliff" mentality that has largely kept human beings in a confused, victimized, and completely demoralized and disempowered state for millenia already... Can we please grow up a little more, and realize the miraculous potential we ALL are capable of grasping and creating for ourselves instead of being the voice that cries out "NO, you cant make it, it's too risky, you'll be killed, or hurt or maimed, or otherwise"...
If people like DaVinci, or Orville and Wilbur Wright had listened to people that espouse such a limiting and fearfully distracting view as you just have, we would never have flown to the moon, or much less even in an airplane....
What's worth the having if it's not worth taking all the risks for to begin with at all anyhow ?
Did anyone tell us in the guidebook it was all going to be a cakewalk and downhill ride of nothing but positve joy and complete unselfish no risk and thrills ?
Of course there are people and companies that won't employ others for stupid and fearful and selfish reasons. Of course there are people that will love to take any one of us out just because we might look or act or sound different, so if you knew that going into it with eyes wide open already, didnt you ever think ahead to make a back up plan, or strive to physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually protect yourself and still be willing to take all the incredible risks ?
I found your response to my loving support to Deb as cutting, sarcastic, far too personal, and somewhat out of context, and therefore, reckless and irresponsibly fearful in the face of all the known risks that people like ourselves must willingly face and consciously prepare for in every single way and every single day of our lives... I must apologize for being so sharp with you, but i think you crossed the line on that one single short response to my posting. I would have liked to have expected better from someone of you're quite obvious intelligence...
Thanks,
Lovingly always,
ChefAnnagirl
A person can be sssooo assured of their right to whom ever/whatever they choose but when they are OUT they they are at the mercy (what there is of it) of society. Did it matter to me what others thought--hell yes. Did it stop me hell no.
Now for a small history lesson.
6 years ago I walked away from a job of 14 years in management. I moved with no job waiting, no further source of income. to a town where I knew no one. I walked away from everything. For one thing, transition. I did my therapy, my HRT, my RLT and guess what my surgery also. When you have a point from the same place I am perhaps you will see what the view is like.
Until you have ridden the elephant you can only imagine what the truth is.
If I am not mistaken my post was to this >> then what the hell else does it matter what anyone else thinks... and only that. You are the one who has taken exception to my post and for what reason, that I mentioned that in fact it does matter what others think?
If someone, such as yourself, chooses to take offense at this then perhaps it is because it does matter.
Ladies please, getting a little too caught up in the personal. I found ChefAnnaGirl's post thoughtful except when it started going in this direction.
Quotefar too personal, and somewhat out of context
I really don't think Leigh's question was personal. It was a legitimate question and well on topic.
Lets take a deep breath. Everyone has a qualified point of view here.
Hugs all around,
Cassie
I have to agree with you Leigh,
It is not what people think that hurts, but what they do as in not giving you an opportunity to support yourself by giving you a job and also the threat of physical violence from those who don't understand.
I think it is the above that makes the stance taken by Deb to be so significant and for that I dips me lid to Deb and her lovely lady. For me the above is not worth the effort. It would however be great to live on a world where the above is not a concern.
Perhaps the space program will help one day. ( Captain it's life but not life as we know it.
Shelley
The reason I wrote this post was admite to the negative aspects of being out. And yes Leigh, job and safety is a part of it.
So when you come out, these are two more negatives.....
I could lose my job
Those that hate me might try to hurt me.
We all deal with the adversity in our own way. For me....as I said....job is not an issue. I am self-employed and my customers do not know the real me. Now....about being hurt?
I know the risk I'm taking....and they are considerable. I live my life differently now because of it. I am even somewhat parinoid. I live in MO and at any time....a small group of 'biker' rednecks might get the balls to confront me...even at my home. I am aware and will defend myself.
What ChefAnnagirl says is right...we have to not care what others think, but that does not mean to be stupid. Everyday I push it a little farther....but I do it slowly and with my own moral respect of others.
The power to be proud.....is the power not to care about negative judgments....that is WAY powerfull!
We all want acceptance, but we don't 'decide' that part....only the price we are willing to pay for it. What price will you pay? I do not choose for anyone else...and do not judge them for it either. We all have our particular life and are different in what we each have to deal with. We each do our part....no mater what it is.
I 'brag' about being out and have MANY other tv/cd's tell how much they 'wish' they could be free too....but the price would be too high. I relate to them and understand. Sometimes it takes time and sometimes it will never be....and to me...that is sader than any price I have payed.
Liegh....you have payed a huge price for your own personal happiness. In your own way, you have furthered acceptance for us all...and I know that has not been easy.
Me....I too have payed a huge price for my own happiness. In my own way, I have furthered acceptance for us all too.
What else is nagative about being an out tv?
I have TS's tell me I'm just 'playing' at being tg and really pay no price.
Gay men think I'm a nut for not dressing more glamorus.
Lesbians think I'm 'just a man in a dress' and knows nothing about women.
Bi-women tell me "You are not a girl"
Bi-men tell me they are into parts of me that I'm not into.
Dommes always think I'm Sub.
Subs always think I'm Domme.
Love
DebTV
Igotta say I like your view of the world Deb. It neverfails to make me think about what is going on around me.
Thank You.
Shelley
OK Ladies, please allow me to clarify,
Let's begin by my apologies to Deb for getting at all off track in making what did become a more personal response to Leigh's initial short quote and response to my statements.
My inital intention, as well as supporting Deb in all she has and does so willingly and consciously face, was to draw the focus even tighter and clearer as regards to the various deep challenges that all of us must clearly face when going up against any part of age-old cultural and societal "norms", which still breed discrimination, hatred, bigotry, invalidation, misunderstanding, and all too often, violence and bloodshed.
I will now carefully examine what was said, by whom, in what specific manner, and explain how and why i have taken it in the manner in which I did.
Let's begin with this very first statement by Leigh:
QuoteDoes employment and physical safety ring a bell?
Leigh, you stated the obvious, in fact overstated, what had already been pointed out in very specific ways by both Deb's and my own prior statements. It wasnt exactly what you said, but the specific manner in which you did it that took me by surprise. First of all, being highly intuitive and psychically sensitive to others in some very pronounced ways, I, in my own gut instincts, did not read particularly positive feelings from your tone of response, although short and succint, since it was redirected, and very specifically towards my own initial statements, which you used as your reference point. This in itself personalizes the dialogue in such a way that invited me to "take it personally", as it were, and so therefore respond back to you in the manner in which i did.
Leigh, You wrote:
"If I am not mistaken my post was to this >>
then what the hell else does it matter what anyone else thinks... and only that. You are the one who has taken exception to my post and for what reason, that I mentioned that in fact it does matter what others think?"
Of course i took exception to what you wrote - you used a sarcastic tone in your initial response that wasnt necessary in illustrating your point about safety and employment. In my dialogue, i obviously pointed out the complete need for greater awareness and preparedness on every level, including personal safety and employment, that we must all have or have had in advance when addressing such deeply impactful life changes as what we are discussing here. You only served to further illustrate every single point that i touched on.
You Also Wrote:
"If someone, such as yourself, chooses to take offense at this then perhaps it is because it does matter."
I did not take offense as much as i felt the need to correct you for taking the uneccessary tone that you used which was if not sarcastic, at very least, somewhat denigrating, possibly combative, and potentially derisive, and if you would like to deny this, you are welcome to, but that is exactly what i felt coming from you on a direct gut instinct level.
You also wrote:
"A person can be sssooo assured of their right to whom ever/whatever they choose but when they are
OUT they they are at the mercy (what there is of it) of society. Did it matter to me what others thought--hell yes. Did it stop me hell no."
Now, in this statement which you have used to further support your tone and viewpoint based on your own quite valid and quite personal experience, you have actaully completely contradicted yourself, and in the process, more clearly illustrated the point that i was initially trying to make in my quote that you referenced as a means of further supporting your stance n this dialogue with me. Here's how:
When you said: "But when they are OUT, they are at the mercy of society. Did it matter to me what others thought--hell yes. Did it stop me hell no."
This would be considered almost an oxymoron because in the one breath you state the concept of being a victim in the metaphorical sense as pertains to the views and whims of society, yet a breath later, you stated clearly that you had self-actualized well past the point of this actually being able to affect the course of your life and directly pertinent decisions in this regard.
Therefore, I contend this is not a valid argument and directly contradicts the concept of self-empowerment necessary to achieve the goals that you have clearly stated you were able to accomplish, REGARDLESS of the rest of society and your life's conditions for that matter. You created exactly what you wanted, and in an amazingly empowered manner through your sheer determination and belief in what you knew you needed to do and what you figured you were capable of doing, so therefore, you were at the mercy of NO ONE and nothing else, but whether or not you could overcome your own fears and obstacles in your own personal living situation.
This, my dear girl, was EXACTLY my whole entire point, and your argument only served to further validate this point, in my opinion.
You Wrote:
"Now for a small history lesson.
6 years ago I walked away from a job of 14 years in management. I moved with no job waiting, no further source of income. to a town where I knew no one. I walked away from everything. For one thing, transition. I did my therapy, my HRT, my RLT and guess what my surgery also. When you have a point from the same place I am perhaps you will see what the view is like.
Until you have ridden the elephant you can only imagine what the truth is."
Did i not, in my second post in response to you, VERY clearly illustrate having to take into account and accepting accountability for the preparedness for almost EXACTLY this very same scenario in the hypothetical for anyone that may have to go through transition ? Not only this, but no one has tried to invalidate your own personal levels of experience in what you had to do, in so doing what you did to get there.
Of course no one is going to understand it exactly from YOUR point of perspective as this is YOUR life and your own very personal experience and specific perspective of it. This does not not mean that it is any stornger, weaker, deeper, more difficult, or more valid than anyone else's simply because they havent gone through exactly the same kinds of challenges in the same manner or context as your own life's experience.
From Cassandra:
"Ladies please, getting a little too caught up in the personal. I found ChefAnnaGirl's post thoughtful except when it started going in this direction."
I really don't think Leigh's question was personal. It was a legitimate question and well on topic.
Leigh did not pose a "question" in this response, Cassandra, she made a *statement* in which the answers were already obvious to anyone reading this dialogue, therefore, "throwing it back in my face" to a certain extent, therefore, making it quite personal.
These are *games*, and while i was addressing very real and very serious aspects of what Deb was intially trying to share with all of us in her initial post, I recieved a game of attack in response from one of your moderators - one that has already shown enough personal strength, courage, and ability to overcome such obstacles in her own life that reverting to such unecessarily petty and bitingly sarcastic games should not be necessary at all for her. I obviously struck a personal note and YOU, Leigh, responded to it first, in very much less than a straightforward manner.
"Lets take a deep breath. Everyone has a qualified point of view here."
This, Cassie, was also exactly my point in some regards and i am glad you said this.
Hugs all around,
Cassie
To Deb, I love and deeply respect you and have always enjoyed the spirit with which you address your life's challenges and those posed by all others to you in this forum. To Cassie, I thank you for your attempt at lovingly moderating what could become a more personal conflict on some levels. To Leigh - you have already proven to yourself all that you possibly could in almost every respect I can think of and I deeply respect you for this, I am not here to do anything other than be as completely straightforward as possible, and if in this process of stating my own perceptions, it strikes a couple chords here and there, please respond with equal intelligence and in as dignified manner as possible - please - I willl commit to doing only the very same thing always.
Thanks all,
Lovingly Always,
Love Forever,
ChefAnnagirl
Quote...we have to not care what others think,
Whatch out for that "have to not care". We can do what we must totally aside from what people care, but if actually don't care what others think then it would be impossible to gain acceptance as anybody or anything. Me? I'd just like to blend into the background and be nothing special except to those who know me well enough to know what I'm worth, as to the others, pardon me, but I'll bend before I break, though it takes a lot to crack a tough nut..
Terri
Hi all,
I must say one thing...
My apologies for being too short with people, and maybe taking things too seriously sometimes when they really are not -
My apologies to you Deb, because you started a really great thread, and it deserves to be talked about a little more.
My apologies to all for getting off track a little, and especially to you, Leigh, just because I was being a bitchy freakin' witchy little priss, and I totally took it out on you - thank you all for giving me something to really think about.
The price I pay to be out -
Still paying, every day - especially with family and income and career. It's more overwhelming than I could have ever imagined, especially when almost my entire family misunderstands me or is in some way negatively or hurtfully opposed to me just being myself. The struggle of an amazing marriage being shredded daily by the force of my singleminded desire to fully express myself in every way I am most comfortable doing. Now, I am beginning to understand.
The price we have paid - are all still paying -
There is no selling price - nothing is worth replacing the chance we gave all of ourselves to be out to whatever degree we are or will be - Nothing else in life is worth that price to me now - the single choice and the single chance that we gave ourselves to live, to love, and to have acceptance for ourselves, no matter what the rest of the world thinks -That's still worth more than anything else i can think of.
Let's make it count.
Lovingly Always,
ChefAnnagirl
I totally agree with that ChefAnnaGirl,
We pay a price everyday for being out and being who we are. I see no end to that but like you I believe it is a price worth paying.
By the by, anybody ever tell you you look very much like Lily Tomlin? I love her so that is a compliment. ;D
Cassie
I think that sometimes we react to the written word in ways that we would not to the spoken because long before we would take offence a request for clarification would be forthcoming. Having said this however really appreciate the different points of view that are put forward.
The important part of this post is the discussion on the cost. Sometimes I think we can become very inwardly focussed and it takes a post like this to lift our eyes to see what the world looks like and to think very deeply about these costs.
So thankyou ladies for the enlightenment and ChefAnnaGirl I agree with Cassie that is a striking photo and you do look like the lovely Lily Tomlin.
Shelley
What price have I payed for being out?
My ex wife of 17 yrs left me and hates me for it.
My woman (7yrs) worries about what others think.
She wishes we were more normal.
She says, we weird people out.
She gets frustrated with my insentience to be femme.
She feels the rejection more than me.
She fears for my/our safety, as I am proud and kind of push it.
Folks do reject us, as being "out there".
I lost a few really good friends....total unacceptance.
We are ostracized in public by those who know me....enfemm or not.
Men think they can flirt with my woman.
Some people HATE me.
No one understands me.
My social life is limited.
Even those who accept me...take a chance of someone they know who is un-accepting finding out.
My friends all take heat for being my friend.
I am considered crazy.
Men are pushy wanting my woman...and think I'm kinky (I am not).
People think, "I'm gay."
People think "I choose to be tg'
My social life in limited
I have to be careful all the time.
I have to be worried about my physical safety.
I could lose my job
Those that hate me might try to hurt me.
My family never visits me because they don't (or their kids) want to see me enfemme.
I could be asked to move out of my place if my landlord asked me too.
I draw in admirers....LOL and I am NOT into men.
Bi-dudes hit on my woman and me a lot.
I have to live two lives.
Limited employment oprortunities
I have TS's tell me I'm just 'playing' at being tg and really pay no price.
Gay men think I'm a nut for not dressing more glamorus.
Lesbians think I'm 'just a man in a dress' and knows nothing about women.
Bi-women tell me "You are not a girl"
Bi-men tell me they are into parts of me that I'm not into.
Dommes always think I'm Sub.
Subs always think I'm Domme.
I just cannot just be totally honest and accepted in our society, as I want to be.
Well, that is a huge amount of negative stuff to deal with. I quess I must be pretty drivin to be an honest tv/cd to take all that. But, you-all know there is always a price to pay for anything you accomplish.
Just reading this list gets my stubborn back up!
Love
Debtv
Hell Deb
If you did transition and have surgery you could cut your negatives by at least half ;D Well that and cutting one other thing >:D
I admire your honesty.
Leigh
I'm so very sorry you have to suffer through all these things Deb. it is a very slow process, but "the times they are a changin" and things will be better over time. we all suffer in our own ways no matter where we are gender wise. be strong.
beth
QuoteIf you did transition and have surgery you could cut your negatives by at least half Well that and cutting one other thing
Second that. If I listed all the negatives of the period of time I spent trying to put a lid on it, everyone would be asleep before they could finish reading it. In my view, nothing, and I mean nothing that hasn't worked our to my liking in all this is anything to worry about in comparison. The only thing I see as a major problem is taking to much of the past with me, I want to just never think of all those years, not have to deal with them anymore as they detract from the experience and made to many problems that take to much of my time freeing myself of.
When I'm new again I simply want it to be as it should be and not be troubled about things I did and didn't do and things I shouldn't have and in theory couldn't have, but did, the insanity of it all, but at least I can see it these days and what I can see, I can overcome, if only for my own sake.
Bring on all the heartbreak, pain and problems of transition! ... Make it through or die, It's easier by far then pretending its not so. At least it is a real life which is my own and not somebody elses.
Terri
Thanks girls,
But, I did choose to be an out tv/cd so I could be just be honest, happy and hopefully educate many others...to make that list shorter in the furture. I'm lucky that I am in a position to be able to be honest. I'm self-employed and most my customers live out in the country and will never see me enfemm....so I get to keep making money. I'm also big and strong (size 18) and that helps for my personal security. I'm lucky I crashed an airplane and almost died, 12 yrs ago. It opened my eyes to how short life really is and how I had been waisting my life living a lie.
My next post will be a new thread "The benifits for me for being out as a tv/cd"
Love
DebTV
ok....negative enough! Here is the postive post!
The Transgender Gift
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,1425.0.html
Love
DebTV