Poll
Question:
Is there a difference between being pretty and being passable?
Option 1: Yes, there is a difference.
Option 2: No, I see them as the same thing.
Do you girls(or guys) think there's a difference between being pretty and being able to pass as a regular female?
I think there is.
There's a lot of androgynous MTFS out there who don't exactly pass but are definitely attractive.
opinions? :3
I never really thought of it that way before, but it's also subject to how one defines "pretty" and "passable." Is it physical? Mental? Is it about confidence?
Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 26, 2011, 06:58:20 PM
I never really thought of it that way before, but it's also subject to how one defines "pretty" and "passable." Is it physical? Mental? Is it about confidence?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?
Can you get any more cliche, Joey? :D
I personally am too old to be conceded pretty, so I settle for "passable". Some don't believe that I am 57, so I guess I am not bad for an old broad.
Yes. Most natal females pass as women, yet all are not pretty- at least by conventional standards or whatevs.
Quote from: Jen on August 26, 2011, 07:06:21 PM
Yes. Most natal females pass as women, yet all are not pretty- at least by conventional standards or whatevs.
I agree! (Even though its the vice versa of what I said... so ofc I agree with it)
Quote from: Irish Janet on August 26, 2011, 07:05:32 PM
I personally am too old to be conceded pretty, so I settle for "passable". Some don't believe that I am 57, so I guess I am not bad for an old broad.
Old? Mature is a much flattering word, I'm sure you're fine (:
Judge for yourself. ;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi397.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp59%2FJanet_Lynn_54%2FSnapshot32-13-20112-02PM.png&hash=87f0b6903792ea3285f8b1f3579dd251e603139b)
Quote from: Irish Janet on August 26, 2011, 07:12:45 PM
Judge for yourself. ;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi397.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp59%2FJanet_Lynn_54%2FSnapshot32-13-20112-02PM.png&hash=87f0b6903792ea3285f8b1f3579dd251e603139b)
Your skin was the first thing I noticed, it looks good for "mature" skin ;)
I think you're cute! haha
No. Pretty does not equal passable. I know, I am an example of that weird happening.
I was stopped dead in my tracks at a party :
"Excuse me? "
(me) hi :)
"You are really pretty, the girls here aren't as pretty as you. I wish I was so adorable."
:-\ thanks.
Danke Fräulein
Quote from: EmmaM on August 26, 2011, 07:17:38 PM
No. Pretty does not equal passable. I know, I am an example of that weird happening.
I was stopped dead in my tracks at a party :
"Excuse me? "
(me) hi :)
"You are really pretty, the girls here aren't as pretty as you. I wish I was so adorable."
:-\ thanks.
I bet you felt flattered though :)
I sometimes got the ol' "Wow you'd make a cute girl" comment thing when I was in boy mode.
and it always made me feel confident :B
Quote from: Irish Janet on August 26, 2011, 07:18:26 PM
Danke Fräulein
oooo german!
Not my best language lol.
but you're welcome~
Quote from: Joeyboo~ :3 on August 26, 2011, 06:52:16 PM
Do you girls(or guys) think there's a difference between being pretty and being able to pass as a regular female?
I think there is.
There's a lot of androgynous MTFS out there who don't exactly pass but are definitely attractive.
opinions? :3
Yes, just because you pass does not mean you're pretty. There is a difference. xD
I'm passable but by no means pretty. :(
I am my worst critic. No less do I think I am not passable I think I am ugly.
If I was pretty then I would pass.
However I must solve internal problems because I thought I was ugly even as a male and others told me I was handsome.
I'd say they are different.
I'd define pretty as delicate features and passable as female looking.
Now, although delicate features can aid female lookingness, there are plenty of females without delicate features. So a person can be passable without being pretty.
Quote from: Joeyboo~ :3 on August 26, 2011, 07:25:19 PM
I bet you felt flattered though :)
I sometimes got the ol' "Wow you'd make a cute girl" comment thing when I was in boy mode.
and it always made me feel confident :B
oooo german!
Not my best language lol.
but you're welcome~
I was, since the girl who said it was a cis girl belly dancer, and kept watching me all night! I had a cute paper boy escort though, and (s)he had dibs. That was a crazy night.
Wait a second Pica, I don't quite have delicate features!
Pretty much what the others said.
Pretty is not necessarily passable - voice or something else can easily tip the scale
Passable is not necessarily pretty - not all women are pretty, but they tend to pass as women
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 26, 2011, 08:07:56 PM
I'd say they are different.
I'd define pretty as delicate features and passable as female looking.
Now, although delicate features can aid female lookingness, there are plenty of females without delicate features. So a person can be passable without being pretty.
O.K. but if I was pretty would I be passable? I think pretty equate to feminine. I do agree that vocie can be masculine and you do not pass even though you are pretty. However if I were pretty then I would solve next issues. I do not evn have confidence that if I pass then I would be accepted. How could I pass if I am ugly? These are my issues because I know people that have little chance of passing that pass. They passed prior to FFS and their feature were masculine. Attitude is a large part of passing.
Quote from: wendy on August 26, 2011, 08:21:19 PM
O.K. but if I was pretty would I be passable? I think pretty equate to feminine. I do agree that vocie can be masculine and you do not pass even though you are pretty. However if I were pretty then I would solve next issues. I do not evn have confidence that if I pass then I would be accepted. How could I pass if I am ugly? These are my issues because I know people that have little chance of passing that pass. They passed prior to FFS and their feature were masculine. Attitude is a large part of passing.
I don't consider myself passable because of my voice and my adam's apple.
My voice is
extremely low and I try my best to make it higher but no luck so far.
I was trying to make a point in all of this, saying just because people say you don't pass that it shouldn't get you down because you could still have some nice features.
Someone will find you attractive/pretty/hot/sexy/whatever :)
Some very sexy (pretty) women have low voices.
Check this site out for some names.
http://www.annoying.com/(S(vow2tt45d3rzac55wr0ijo45))/collection.aspx?collection=3539 (http://www.amiannoying.com/(S(vow2tt45d3rzac55wr0ijo45))/collection.aspx?collection=3539)
Oh and don't get me wrong low voiced women are not all annoying. ;)
Quote from: wendy on August 26, 2011, 08:21:19 PM
O.K. but if I was pretty would I be passable? I think pretty equate to feminine. I do agree that vocie can be masculine and you do not pass even though you are pretty. However if I were pretty then I would solve next issues. I do not evn have confidence that if I pass then I would be accepted. How could I pass if I am ugly? These are my issues because I know people that have little chance of passing that pass. They passed prior to FFS and their feature were masculine. Attitude is a large part of passing.
You get stared at a lot harder if people think you are attractive. Way harder if they think you're hot and they can't tell whether you are a boy or girl. You can nearly feel their heartbeat if you speak to them and they still can't tell. What's your definition of pass? Pretty does not equal passable, it does equal object of desire, though.
Quote from: Jillieann on August 26, 2011, 08:47:56 PM
Some very sexy (pretty) women have low voices.
Check this site out for some names.
http://www.annoying.com/(S(vow2tt45d3rzac55wr0ijo45))/collection.aspx?collection=3539 (http://www.amiannoying.com/(S(vow2tt45d3rzac55wr0ijo45))/collection.aspx?collection=3539)
Oh and don't get me wrong low voiced women are not all annoying. ;)
Thanks for the link! it gave me a bit of more confidence.
However I noticed that when a woman has a deep voice it's usually raspy and still somehow sounds soft.
My voice is deep and... guyish. I have no other way to explain it.
It sucks but practice makes perfect I guess!
Quote from: Jillieann on August 26, 2011, 08:47:56 PM
Some very sexy (pretty) women have low voices.
Check this site out for some names.
http://www.annoying.com/(S(vow2tt45d3rzac55wr0ijo45))/collection.aspx?collection=3539 (http://www.amiannoying.com/(S(vow2tt45d3rzac55wr0ijo45))/collection.aspx?collection=3539)
Oh and don't get me wrong low voiced women are not all annoying. ;)
No Emma Stone?! Her voice is so sexy.
Quote from: Joeyboo~ :3 on August 26, 2011, 09:02:26 PM
Thanks for the link! it gave me a bit of more confidence.
However I noticed that when a woman has a deep voice it's usually raspy and still somehow sounds soft.
My voice is deep and... guyish. I have no other way to explain it.
It sucks but practice makes perfect I guess!
My speaking voice is 175 Hz. Nobody hears anything but a girl. Actually I had to spend 20 minutes a few weeks ago convincing a nice lady over the phone that those really were my old dental records even though the gender was listed male on the file.
I'm still gendered female over the phone when I have a cold or I'm exhausted and my voice dips down lower. There are a lot more important aspects to gendering your voice than pitch. And what you describe sounds more like a resonance issue than a pitch issue - needing to relax your chest and throat, and bounce your voice off the inside of your head so your mouth/cheeks/nose vibrate when you speak rather than your chest.
And just to ward off any well-meaning suggestions: I can easily go up higher, I just LIKE speaking at a low pitch. :)
Pretty = Passable?
No, you don't necessarily have to be pretty to be passable... Not all cis women are pretty, but most often there is no question that they are women
Sure, most woman like to feel pretty and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you don't need to win a beauty padgent or become a super model to pass
I think the most passable folks are those who are able to relax and just be themselves :)
Work on softening your voice. That has helped me allot.
Now even when I am excited and put more force into my voice, it is still softer than before.
Yes keep praticing hon.
Quote from: Joeyboo~ :3 on August 26, 2011, 08:36:33 PM
I was trying to make a point in all of this, saying just because people say you don't pass that it shouldn't get you down because you could still have some nice features.
Someone will find you attractive/pretty/hot/sexy/whatever :)
That is nice. I like that. :). I always cringe when people say people don't pass in those 'am I passable?' threads.
It's interesting this idea that being pretty doesn't mean being necessarily passable. While in most cases it does help and nobody would wish it away, I still agree it's true that it doesn't always make you passable. Besides what's been mentioned I would add that in my opinion a lot of men are pretty. I mean you have ruggedly handsome, then you have pretty guys. Both are attractive in their own ways. Both most def look like men. Also pretty people get noticed and speaking as a 6'2" girl I can tell ya, extra scrutiny isn't always the best thing for passing. I always feel I'm one mess up from being clocked.
"I don't consider myself passable because of my voice and my adam's apple.
My voice is extremely low and I try my best to make it higher but no luck so far."
I still have the apple after 24 years since GRS. We worry about things that others don't notice. I can also sing bass... not alto... well actually, I can sing alto but it is definitely not female in tenor (punography alert! ;)). So, my voice isn't all that feminine unless I'm paying attention to what I'm saying. I continually have to remind myself to THINK. In any case... I have a friend who looks ... well, she looks like a she and sounds odd with a very manly deep bass voice. Sometimes people will do a double take but then they figure that she's lesbian (she is) and then they are cool. I swear, it's wierd but so true.
I had some friends over one night and they brought their 11 year old son so he could look through my telescopes. He aksed me point blank "Has anyone ever told you that you sound like a boy?" I wasn't THINKING about my voice so much that night. I was so excited to show him the universe. After his parents gave him a fairly stern rebuff, I told him "Yes, many people have told me that. My sister has the same problem. There are lots of different types of people in the world."
I swear, the little kids will get you every time!
Cindi
Some people say I can be pretty (in the right light and angle >< )... but I don't pass at all. There are lots of pretty guys around. Pretty and feminine are two different things.
Quote from: Jillieann on August 26, 2011, 08:47:56 PM
Some very sexy (pretty) women have low voices.
Check this site out for some names.
http://www.annoying.com/(S(vow2tt45d3rzac55wr0ijo45))/collection.aspx?collection=3539 (http://www.amiannoying.com/(S(vow2tt45d3rzac55wr0ijo45))/collection.aspx?collection=3539)
Oh and don't get me wrong low voiced women are not all annoying. ;)
LOL, seriously? Having low FEMININE voice is not equal to having masculine voice. Transsexual women who have gone through puberty need vocal training.
I think Dana International is pretty, but she doesn't really look passable.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on August 27, 2011, 03:29:25 AM
I think Dana International is pretty, but she doesn't really look passable.
Why? For me she looks stunning, there is only one thing that can make other people thing that she is transsexual: Addam's apple.
I genuinely don't understand why she didn't have it shaved... It's cheap and easy procedure.
Maybe she doesn't care to - it's really not very noticeable. OR maybe she didn't want to risk her voice, seeing as she is a singer. Not everyone feels the need to fix things through surgery when there are risks involved. ::)
Quote from: Joeyboo~ :3 on August 26, 2011, 08:36:33 PM
I don't consider myself passable because of my voice and my adam's apple.
My voice is extremely low and I try my best to make it higher but no luck so far.
I was trying to make a point in all of this, saying just because people say you don't pass that it shouldn't get you down because you could still have some nice features.
Someone will find you attractive/pretty/hot/sexy/whatever :)
Actually I consider you pretty and passable and adam's apple is of no concern. I am amazed at how males train their voices. People have told me I am lazy and I just got to try. About 90% can succeed if they work hard. It takes such concentration to talk in female voice for me that I can not even have a nice flow of sentences. I just talk in my normal animated male voice.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 27, 2011, 01:26:01 AM
I had some friends over one night and they brought their 11 year old son so he could look through my telescopes. He aksed me point blank "Has anyone ever told you that you sound like a boy?" I wasn't THINKING about my voice so much that night. I was so excited to show him the universe. After his parents gave him a fairly stern rebuff, I told him "Yes, many people have told me that. My sister has the same problem. There are lots of different types of people in the world."
I swear, the little kids will get you every time!
Cindi
I help my wife as a volunteer at media center for an inner city elementary school. I dress conservative male and still little children will say Mr. "X" are you a girl? I smile and say yes. Others ask me if I am 80 years old and my wife's dad. I ask them if they think I am only 80. Young children like me and accept me and tell me what they think.
...................
More I study people more I think it is attitude that makes you pass. In fact did you even meet a person that you liked and they became "prettier" because you liked them and vice versa for someone that was mean as they became "uglier"?
I consider delicate features to be pretty and therefore on surface make you more likely to pass. Interesting fact is that some masculine features on females and feminine features on males make attractive people.
Quote from: AmySmiles on August 27, 2011, 08:10:43 AM
Maybe she doesn't care to - it's really not very noticeable. OR maybe she didn't want to risk her voice, seeing as she is a singer. Not everyone feels the need to fix things through surgery when there are risks involved. ::)
Not very noticeable? Haha, have you watched this? Dana International RTÉ ONE FULL INTERVIEW.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiUOCcucRSQ#)
Plus, I NEVER EVER heard of any complications during trachea shave. Come on, we live in XXI century...
Quote from: marelivki on August 27, 2011, 08:50:41 AM
Plus, I NEVER EVER heard of any complications during trachea shave. Come on, we live in XXI century...
From this very forum... only a couple pages back even. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,86358.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,86358.0.html)
It's not common, but it happens. Sometimes patients lose their falsetto, which if I am correct is the range MTF persons usually have to sing in. When I asked Dr. O, he told me he's had 5 patients lose theirs. If your livelihood were based on singing, would that be a risk you'd be willing to take? Most everyone knows she's a transsexual already anyway, so the only benefit is aesthetic.
Quote from: AmySmiles on August 27, 2011, 09:02:35 AM
From this very forum... only a couple pages back even. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,86358.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,86358.0.html)
It's not common, but it happens. Sometimes patients lose their falsetto, which if I am correct is the range MTF persons usually have to sing in. When I asked Dr. O, he told me he's had 5 patients lose theirs. If your livelihood were based on singing, would that be a risk you'd be willing to take? Most everyone knows she's a transsexual already anyway, so the only benefit is aesthetic.
Well, If you do it in a place, which has many good opinions, then it's sure nothing bad will happen. I am sure she didn't choose Thailand, there are performed surgeries of that kind really beautifully.
Yes, aesthetic, because her addam's apple is really expressed and draws attention.
Quote from: marelivki on August 27, 2011, 08:50:41 AM
Not very noticeable? Haha, have you watched this? Dana International RTÉ ONE FULL INTERVIEW.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiUOCcucRSQ#)
Plus, I NEVER EVER heard of any complications during trachea shave. Come on, we live in XXI century...
Liked that interview. Dana is very beautiful. I liked comment that she just wanted a chance with people and understood if they accepted her or not. Yes she is passable and pretty. Loved her smile and mannerisms too.
Pretty and Passable are very different, because there are soooo many dimensions to passing.
You can look like the most beautiful cisgendered supermodel, but if your voice sucks, well you don't pass. This sort of thing can happen in many different ways.
I see pretty girls who have just a little too much shadow on their face, and it destroys their passability. You can look good and sound good, but if you walk and act like a guy, that can even raise some red flags.
I see all flavors of female in my group. Many who should pass but do not because of some various reason. It's hard to approach them about these things, because when you do they get offended. I'm by no means rude about it, and I'll even do it in private with as much courtesy and respect as possible, but people still take it personally; so I leave it alone.
Edit: And Dana in that interview is quite passable and pretty. Nothing on her face was screaming masculine at me. In the presence of her overwhelming femininity, any trace of masculinity is insignificant.
Quote from: Samantharz on August 27, 2011, 10:05:35 AM
You can look like the most beautiful cisgendered supermodel, but if your voice sucks, well you don't pass. This sort of thing can happen in many different ways.
I see pretty girls who have just a little too much shadow on their face, and it destroys their passability. You can look good and sound good, but if you walk and act like a guy, that can even raise some red flags.
I agree with the most part, but behaviour and the way you walk can't betray/expose (I am no a native speaker, so correct me which verb is more appropriate for what I mean) you as trans, if you look and sound passable. If it would, all of the butch lesbians would be considered male, yet they are not.
Quote from: Samantharz on August 27, 2011, 10:05:35 AM
Edit: And Dana in that interview is quite passable and pretty. Nothing on her face was screaming masculine at me. In the presence of her overwhelming femininity, any trace of masculinity is insignificant.
Addam's apple is really expressed. Why can't she do that? Dont get it
Yeah, she may have an adams apple, but with the heavy lighting casting shadows on her neck, I'm having trouble seeing it. She seems to pull attention away from her neck. To be honest it's not what I'm looking at when I look at her, and I imagine a lot of people don't look at her neck much either.
But I do notice it when you point it out.
Quote from: marelivki on August 27, 2011, 10:19:31 AM
Addam's apple is really expressed. Why can't she do that? Dont get it
Too funny. I have seen a few TS leave adams apple like a tattoo. For whatever reason it was left as a badge of courage. Yes I saw adams apple on Dana... when you asked me to look for it. No it did not detract from her beauty.
........................................
Yes little things can give you away. I heard a girl sneeze and she outed herself to me.
A girl can be outed by eating or drinking too! Ever watch a guy eat a foot long in three bites with first bite still in mouth? Ever watch a guy drink a quart of water without putting quart down for air?
I've had lunch with some pretty girls and wow they ate like line backers. Male throat is actually wider than female throat. Average female can not eat or drink as fast as average male. If female eats and drinks as fast as a male then other females will notice her.
As an aside Dr. O looked at my face and told me that he would leave my adams apple as it was not an issue. I told him I wanted my voice to be fixed surgically and he told me I was crazy. He gave me name of best voice surgeon in U.S. Voice Surgeon told group of people at a conference I attended that some surgeons cut too deep into adams apple and voice box heals onto throat damaging voice.
Quote from: marelivki on August 27, 2011, 10:19:31 AM
Addam's apple is really expressed. Why can't she do that? Dont get it
Some of us just don't feel it's necessary to erase everything, we find compromises. Transition is already hard enough without believing you have to carve up
every part of your body like some jack-o-lantern.
Dana is very pretty, I bet there are many women who would "deal with" an enlarged trachea to attain her level of self acceptance and success.
Quote from: EmmaM on August 27, 2011, 02:08:27 PM
Dana is very pretty, I bet there are many women who would "deal with" an enlarged trachea to attain her level of self acceptance and success.
Hello I would settle for her chaperone. :)
Quote from: wendy on August 26, 2011, 08:03:25 PM
I am my worst critic. No less do I think I am not passable I think I am ugly.
If I was pretty then I would pass.
However I must solve internal problems because I thought I was ugly even as a male and others told me I was handsome.
this is how I feel. The word handsome equals ugly to me.
Quote from: jainie marlena on August 27, 2011, 05:02:16 PM
this is how I feel. The word handsome equals ugly to me.
Weird. I consider handsome as ugly; however I think you are attractive. I have seen MTF's that glowed and I found them attractive. They glowed with happiness and I wanted to be with them. On two foot examination they were not pretty, handsome, but not pretty. Acceptance is more important than all surgeries. You can remove your adams apple but if you can not accept yourself you will never pass. Never.
I need to be pretty to pass; yet I must accept myself to pass. If you cannot accept yourself you will always find a flaw that is irrelevant. I do not consider myself a woman. I consider myself closer to a woman than a man. My mind has always considered a woman an equal to a man. Very weird indeed.
I'm pretty on the inside :D
Quote from: Irish Janet on August 26, 2011, 07:05:32 PM
I personally am too old to be conceded pretty, so I settle for "passable". Some don't believe that I am 57, so I guess I am not bad for an old broad.
Humph! I'm older than you are, and I'm pretty. And this is the first time in my life I've believed it.
Wendy honey,
* My mind has always considered a woman an equal to a man. Very weird indeed. *
Now WHY would that be weird?! :-)
I always considered females superior to males --- now that may be called weird.
It's soooo non-PC, eh.
Have to mend my ways just now I find out I am one --- lest being called a supremacist, eish!
Axelle
Quote from: Axélle on August 30, 2011, 11:40:20 AM
Wendy honey,
* My mind has always considered a woman an equal to a man. Very weird indeed. *
Now WHY would that be weird?! :-)
I always considered females superior to males --- now that may be called weird.
It's soooo non-PC, eh.
Have to mend my ways just now I find out I am one --- lest being called a supremacist, eish!
Axelle
Axelle too funny! Actually my wife is a nicer person than myself and very beautiful. If I was similar to my wife I would pass and be a nice person. She is pretty on inside and outside. I am starting to think passing means not getting called "Sir" all day long. Today checkout lady called, "Sir. Sir. SIR you forgot your bag of groceries."
No pretty does not = passable. You don't have to be pretty to be passable. Not all GG are pretty either! Just saying. I think pretty is just a plus and something we all desire to be..
Depends on who you ask. I hang out with straight men and they all think that passable= pretty. Now ciswomen, the fact that you have softness and know how to do makeup makes you pretty.
I am kind of the worst person to ask about transsexual prettiness. I know I've met plenty of men who liked me, but having a pretty face doesn't mean the men won't clock you. Some men know. Some don't. Some are surprised. Others knew and thought I do a "great job".
As for women's perspective on the issue. God knows being a former member of SF's gay community, I've seen all variations of it. A lot of principles applied to the gay communitty.
I know I associate passable with "pretty". But again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.