In the old testament, it talks about how the sins of the father become a curse to furure generations. In the new testament, I have never seen this addressed.
Setting aside the fact that I am a transman, I have always wondered if I am living underneath the curse of..'sins of the father.' Just seems like anything i have ever tried to do, to make a life, blows up in my face.
Looking for some enlightenment.
Could you give an example?
Gennee
Quote from: mowdan6 on September 01, 2011, 11:47:40 AM
In the old testament, it talks about how the sins of the father become a curse to furure generations. In the new testament, I have never seen this addressed.
Setting aside the fact that I am a transman, I have always wondered if I am living underneath the curse of..'sins of the father.' Just seems like anything i have ever tried to do, to make a life, blows up in my face.
Looking for some enlightenment.
John 9, Luke 13. John 9 talks about a blind man being healed, and Jesus is explicit that this wasn't because his father sinned. Luke 13 talks about bad things happening and Jesus doesn't address sins of the father, but rather sin in general and says that they weren't worse people than anyone else.
Job - the whole book essentially shows that bad things can happen to people for reason other than sin (your own or someone else's).
You may just have the kind of luck I do. I tell people I have the opposite of the Midas touch - everything I touch turns to.....well, let's just say I'd make a plumber a lot of money. I think one of the hardest things in life is that bad things happen for no reason. That means we can't always fix them, prevent them, etc.
That said, I've always had a hard time with that part of the old testiment - I never really understood how it reconciles with other things. I know extended families were a lot more common then, and the family line was very important, but beyond that it always struck me as very unfair to the kids.
I think Slanan covered it pretty well. The Old Testament is a combination of moral instruction, political tract, family history, and an attempt to answer deep questions in the language of the time. The New Testament is very different, and supercedes it in virtually all areas.
Too many people seem to be stuck on using the Old to push a barrow, but won't apply it to themselves. If they did Dr's would be doing a roaring trade in circumcisions for a start. I like to ask fundies if they have been done, usually shuts them up! >:-)
Karen.
Quote from: justmeinoz on September 02, 2011, 05:20:57 AM
I think Slanan covered it pretty well. The Old Testament is a combination of moral instruction, political tract, family history, and an attempt to answer deep questions in the language of the time. The New Testament is very different, and supercedes it in virtually all areas.
Too many people seem to be stuck on using the Old to push a barrow, but won't apply it to themselves. If they did Dr's would be doing a roaring trade in circumcisions for a start. I like to ask fundies if they have been done, usually shuts them up! >:-)
Karen.
Right on! This is exactly why I never understood why people take everything in the Old Testament so much to heart. In most "guideline" situations in the Old Testament, they're stating them for the health of others, ie. eating pork.
To me, the old testament convicts me of sin. The new testament teaches me that despite my sinful nature, with faith in Christ my sins will be covered, and become white as snow, being justified through grace.
I am soooo glad I don't have to live by the old testament, all the blood sacrifices and such.
Kendall.
Quote from: kendra on September 07, 2011, 09:45:54 PM
To me, the old testament convicts me of sin. The new testament teaches me that despite my sinful nature, with faith in Christ my sins will be covered, and become white as snow, being justified through grace.
I am soooo glad I don't have to live by the old testament, all the blood sacrifices and such.
Kendall.
We Christians do not have to sacrifice an animal because Jesus became the Lamb of God for us when he died on the cross. What we call the Old Testament is the Torah and Talmud to the Jews. Jesus did not ban sacrifices in his last days, nor does the New Testament have anything to say against sacrifices. The apostles even went to the Temple often after Jesus arose. They tried to get Steven the Greek apostle in but a crowd prevented them to enter, because Stephen was uncircumcised. The pork issue came later with Paul, that caused lively discussions amongst the early church. Paul said that all meat is OK, unless it was sacrificed to idols.
The Jews will have the Temple rebuilt in the future despite the turmoil there. The Abomination of Desolation is mentioned in the Old Testament as well as in Revelations before the arrival of the Messiah and that applies only to the Temple. The cornerstone of the new Temple has already been made using special non-iron tools as prescribed in the Old Testament. There is a museum in Jerusalem devoted to the future Temple and the objects they already made for it.
There are the different sacrifices us Christians have to make than those of the Jews. Both faiths and books are still valid to Yahweh (Jehovah).
Joelene
Please forgive me, it is not my intention to offend but I cannot understand this concept of children being born laden with sin. Surely we are all born innocent and sin free?
mimpi,
* I cannot understand this concept of children being born laden with sin. *
Speaking under correction, this concept came about with St. Paul. It is a great 'vehicle' to make sure, babies are christened in 'the faith' , parents being scared them going to hell if they die before that was done. So we (the church) always have a foot in the door...
As for the sins of the fathers.
Have you ever noted if children were abused by parents, those parents in turn had been abused by theirs and so going down the line. I do not only speak of sexual abuse here, but much more in general.
Have you ever noticed that so many 'wanting' trades of parents get passed on to their children? Alcoholism just being one...
The list goes on, I just wanted to sketch out the general concept.
Even STD gets passed done the line, AIDS, Syphilis, Gonorrhoea, etc.
Those to my learning were these 'sins' of the fathers the OT refers to.
Axelle
Thank You all for your posts. Thank you Axelle for your post. And I believe you are right. The sins of the father isn't a curse passed on, it's all the crap that our parents pass on to us. And, that is what i have been dealing with in trying to make some good changes for my life. All the old messages from parents of not being good enough....being a mistake.....where did you come from ..you'll never amount to anything....etc. You are right...that is the sins of the father ( and mother.) And they are old messages that are a curse, because they are hard to erase. And, they still hold me back from being the man I know I have within me, to be.
Having all that crap drummed into my head for so many years....guess it's time to call in the 'honey wagon'.
mowdan6,
seems you got it just about all.
There is yet ONE more thing --- your parents also were once children and ALSO got there 'fat' from that previous generation as they in turn got from theirs, and on.
The OT talks for some good reason about 7 generations back before those things are overcome.
We live in faster times so it may be some less --- but the main point to note:
Blaming your own parents, that were children to their parents, and also got 'messed up' is not going to do one thing for you, EVER.
The name for this blaming is called: Unforgiveness.
Unforgiveness binds A LOT of positive energy that would otherwise be use creatively, not negatively / destructively.
A lot of folks are under the miscomprehension that the harbouring of old grudges is 'just what the doctor ordered'.
FAR from it, and quite the opposite is true.
Every 'demon' we battle, is essentially kept in place by unforgiveness.
If you unable/unwilling to forgive you will hold on to the related 'demon(s)'.
'Demon' = a mind or thought quality that is turning itself against its 'beholder' (the person battling his demons) - and in deed the one that refuses to forgive.
Hope this makes sense also,
Axelle
Hey Axelle. You are a wise woman. I do try to live in forgiveness towards my parents. Even though they do not accept or support me, I do honor and love them. If they ever needed my help, they know, I would be there. Guess the hardest part is, getting all this understanding into my heart. Knowing they did their best. And yea, I know they have old hurts also. I have heard it all. Because growing up...and even now, I am their sound board.
The hard part, I guess, is getting to a place where I can understand...in my heart....that they are doing their best, and....accepting that they will never love or support me as I wish they could. Thank you for your words.
Thank you, and right on :-)
I'm NOT a religious person, spiritual yes - at times.
The ONLY thing to get 'it' into my -heart- is prayer, to PRAY for them.
You do NOT have to be religious/dogmatic to pray. But you be amazed what will happen once you actually pray for someone --- even a dodgy friend that makes you feel having no further need for enemies :-)
Praying for a person you hold a grudge for IS NOT AT ALL EASY! - in fact it's a contradiction in terms to what we feel.
But IT CAN BE done and - well, find out some time and let us know :-)
Axelle
Quote from: Axélle on September 08, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
mimpi,
* I cannot understand this concept of children being born laden with sin. *
Speaking under correction, this concept came about with St. Paul. It is a great 'vehicle' to make sure, babies are christened in 'the faith' , parents being scared them going to hell if they die before that was done. So we (the church) always have a foot in the door...
As for the sins of the fathers.
Have you ever noted if children were abused by parents, those parents in turn had been abused by theirs and so going down the line. I do not only speak of sexual abuse here, but much more in general.
Have you ever noticed that so many 'wanting' trades of parents get passed on to their children? Alcoholism just being one...
The list goes on, I just wanted to sketch out the general concept.
Even STD gets passed done the line, AIDS, Syphilis, Gonorrhoea, etc.
Those to my learning were these 'sins' of the fathers the OT refers to.
Axelle
Thank you for the kind answer, Axèlle.
I thought the Vatican had changed all that the baby will go into Limbo if it isn't christened before passing away business?
Must say I do agree with your comment on prayer, it's worth it even though I'm erratic at it myself unfortunately. Btw, I'm Muslim and used to be on this forum but became upset by the hostility from a certain poster a few years ago. Unfortunately it seems she must have sussed who I am even with a new username and I fear the worst will happen again. Not sure how to handle this as it's hard not to react and I had no joy from the mods last time. Really upsets me.
Quote from: mowdan6 on September 01, 2011, 11:47:40 AM
In the old testament, it talks about how the sins of the father become a curse to furure generations. In the new testament, I have never seen this addressed.
Setting aside the fact that I am a transman, I have always wondered if I am living underneath the curse of..'sins of the father.' Just seems like anything i have ever tried to do, to make a life, blows up in my face.
Looking for some enlightenment.
There are many Theologians and Ministers who do not believe in the theology of "original sin" or sin being passed down from one generation or the other.
However, as someone who practices Witchcraft AND in a Christian Seminary to be a Pastor again, I can tell you that generational curses is a strong belief...which is not original sin.
I don't think you were cursed. But that's just me.
Annah,
you comment is interesting in as much as sin and curse seem to be differentiated.
This may be purely theological or hermeneutical, but when recalling my working in exorcism it made no difference what so ever.
I explained my take on demons earlier as = negative/destructive quality of mind/thought, just so to make it a bit less of a religious thing.
It still is the same thing though, just a different label.
These demons (in short) whether originating in witchcraft, parental or other abuse, or what ever - even some martial arts - always manifest to same i.e. sin and curse come through the same as I recall it.
Sin (in my book) = 'missing the mark' and not some dogmatic religious definition, is a mind-set that turn negative/destructive toward it's beholder.
Actually quite simple. Sin is also a LIE that we feel we need to live.
The original lie always being some or other form of 'indoctrination' , and the 'false prophet' may easily be you grandmother or who ever.
That's from my first hand one-on-one learning during exorcisms.
Axelle
Quote from: Axélle on September 09, 2011, 11:34:26 AM
Annah,
you comment is interesting in as much as sin and curse seem to be differentiated.
This may be purely theological or hermeneutical, but when recalling my working in exorcism it made no difference what so ever.
I explained my take on demons earlier as = negative/destructive quality of mind/thought, just so to make it a bit less of a religious thing.
It still is the same thing though, just a different label.
These demons (in short) whether originating in witchcraft, parental or other abuse, or what ever - even some martial arts - always manifest to same i.e. sin and curse come through the same as I recall it.
Sin (in my book) = 'missing the mark' and not some dogmatic religious definition, is a mind-set that turn negative/destructive toward it's beholder.
Actually quite simple. Sin is also a LIE that we feel we need to live.
The original lie always being some or other form of 'indoctrination' , and the 'false prophet' may easily be you grandmother or who ever.
That's from my first hand one-on-one learning during exorcisms.
Axelle
In my theological teachings, original sin is a concept in which EVERYONE who was ever born is suffering from. From a Judaic standpoint the Original Sin can cause a strain between you and God in which (pre 72 AD) a sacrifice was needed. In a Conservative Christian standpoint, Original Sin is the catalyst that will send anyone to hell...whether they were good in this life or not. In Conservative Christianity, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross forgives you of the sin (which you must still ask for it) but the original sin will still be passed down to the next child, thus creating another cycle of saving the child from hell by having he or she accept Jesus.
In more Progressive Christianity Jesus did die but it was not for an atonement sacrifice. But that can get complicated here and sorta will go off topic.
In terms of Exorcism, the Catholic Church "usually" conveys this as an action in which a person is demonically possessed or oppressed. Usually, the victim had done something on his or her own accord (usually) that caused this. In all honesty, I think the vast majority of all demon possessions is mental instability.
Generational curses happen when an individual casts a hex or curse against a family directly and then wishes not only for that family to be cursed but their generations afterward. Its like rubbing salt in the wound or kicking the horse when it's down.
Original Sin is a Christian concept that will carry on from parent to child until the end of time and if not fixed can lead the child to hell (Con Christianity) and cannot be remedied or fixed. While "salvation" is available, the passing of sin from one person to another child will still exist despite the parents being Godly people. I don't believe in original sin whatsoever. I do believe in sin. But not this.
Generational Curses is done by someone against a chosen family. Once a generational curse is broken, it is broken forever. It does not resurface ever again unless another person casts it. It is easily preventable and takes 15 minutes to get rid of the curse.
Annah,
thanks for outlining some of the doctrine.
It is doctrine that got me kicked out of ministry and I have little time for doctrine these days --- and indoctrination to boot, obviously.
Doctrine, the 'playing rules' of the 'game' so that the church may function --- just my take and learning.
BUT, doctrine is just that: DOCTRINE.
Then doctrine starts to get confused with truth --- and then the jig is up for this here girl.
There are so many accounts to read and movies to see about demons, curses, sin and what not.
I have no intension to yet start another split, but Jesus died on the cross and took my sins away and I acknowledged him as my personal saviour. Speak in tongues etc.
All this other stuff with babies in Limbo and God knows what sin is, and what sin is not...
So many prophets, so many ALL KNOWING folks.
It can frighten one, and most is man made in the name of the Lord.
One major misuse of his/her name.
Just were this girl stands after many years of 'exposure'.
What's left? Prayer! And all say: Amen :-)
Axelle
and that is awesome to believe that.
Personal faith and beliefs will always overcome any doctrine so I def agree with you.
Thank you Annah for your acknowledgement and validation.
Good time to go to bed now, and pray for a positive outcome 7 days form now.
Cheers, :-)
Axelle
Quote from: mimpi on September 08, 2011, 03:22:50 PM
Btw, I'm Muslim and used to be on this forum but became upset by the hostility from a certain poster a few years ago. Unfortunately it seems she must have sussed who I am even with a new username and I fear the worst will happen again. Not sure how to handle this as it's hard not to react and I had no joy from the mods last time. Really upsets me.
Kia Ora Mimpi,
::) Sorry to hear about you being singled out because of your faith/background...I'm sure the mods have matured a lot since then, and will nip it in the bud before any anti Muslim sentiment arises...
Metta Zenda :)