This is something I've been thinking about posting for awhile. Since I've started becoming more comfortable with myself physically I've become more comfortable with a more feminine expression, and experimenting. I feel like now I can be more okay with exporing my gender because I'm more okay with myself.
For trans women, have you become more comfortable with exploring and expressing masculinity after transitioning (or while transitioning...whatever that may mean for you)?
For trans men, have you become more comfortable with exploring and expressing femininity after transitioning (or while transitioning blah blah blah)?
Quote from: Nygeel on September 04, 2011, 06:50:47 PM
For trans men, have you become more comfortable with exploring and expressing femininity after transitioning (or while transitioning blah blah blah)?
No. I'm not a feminine person. I do some stereotypically female activities (crochet and other crafts) but I do not share that with anyone unless we are good friends and even then it depends on who the person is.
Absolutely nothing about expression has changed with transition, except perhaps that I'm much more expressive about everything. :) Honestly, at no point in my life did I do a good job of hiding my extremely feminine nature. Even the "masculine" interests I had I already saw through the eyes of the feminine, and so those interests didn't feel very masculine to me.
No, not really. If anything the opposite is true, I've been more willing to try stereotypically feminine things - like letting my sister put face paint on me... once. Or purchasing clothing that is on the edge of my comfort range - I have a t-shirt with a butterfly on it now. It's black on grey and looks more like a rorschach than a butterfly, but it's still a butterfly.
I'm kind of... hostile to being particularly feminine (partly due to a certain amount of pressure I'm getting), and I'm still trying to figure out what I like and what I want to look like (I only went full time a month ago). I've always preferred more gender-neutral looks and activities, and finding a kind of balance between the social norms. I really don't like the baggage that comes with moving too far in either direction, and I'm just not comfortable being perceived as very masculine or very feminine.
I'm lucky I'm at a point where people are going to gender me female regardless of how I present myself. So I'm not forced into going particularly femme just to avoid being misgendered. And I certainly still wear some men's clothing - shoes, button-ups, jacket. But that isn't really a new thing I'm suddenly comfortable with. Just something I'm relieved I can do without risk.
I find myself just letting go of overly masculine behavior that I used to do in order to fit into male society.
Now that no one sees me as male anymore there is no fear of doing rather feminine stuff, so I am very relaxed and explore feminine expressions that I would be rather punished for prior to my transition
Only just a bit funny times are when I go to the car junkyard or get into some technical conversations which just happen to be rather masculine territory.
At the junkyard there is usually just like 2 women. Someone waiting for her husband and me. i actually don't enjoy that stuff anymore as I used to but I don't have money to bring my car into the shop. As for some conversational topics of rather masculine nature I feel a bit embarrassed as it feels I am outing myself somehow with all this knowledge that came from hanging out with guys or my father but i still do enjoy to be part of those conversations.
Well that wasn't really the response I thought I was going to get. :(
I don't see it as masculine/feminine. Yes I'm an engineer who likes aircraft, weapons and computer games, often considered male things, but I don't accept gendered associations like that. I have become more comfortable just being myself, and not trying to do stereotypically feminine things just because they're things girls do (supposedly). It's not that I'm any more comfortable with this body, I guess I'm just more used to living with this condition. I do find myself not as upset if people mistake me for a male. I used to be very upset about it. These days I either remind myself that this was not a very intelligent person or just snicker a bit.
Quote from: Nygeel on September 04, 2011, 11:39:06 PM
Well that wasn't really the response I thought I was going to get. :(
What were you expecting?
Quote from: Andy8715 on September 04, 2011, 11:42:11 PM
What were you expecting?
I was expecting a few people (like one or two) saying how once they became comfortable with themselves they also became comfortable with femininity/masculinity...
Not about things that were stereotypically male or female...
I dunno. Just thought more masculine/butch identified trans women and feminine/fem identified trans men would respond.
Oh, well I hope they do later. Sorry I just was voicing experience with it. I've never been feminine in my life.
Quote from: Andy8715 on September 04, 2011, 11:51:37 PM
Oh, well I hope they do later. Sorry I just was voicing my feelings on it. I've never been feminine in my life.
And I only started becoming okay with being feminine once I realized I was trans, and even more so when I started hormones.
I do find this whole topic interesting though.
Quote from: Nygeel on September 04, 2011, 11:49:11 PM
I was expecting a few people (like one or two) saying how once they became comfortable with themselves they also became comfortable with femininity/masculinity...
Not about things that were stereotypically male or female...
I dunno. Just thought more masculine/butch identified trans women and feminine/fem identified trans men would respond.
Sorry, but other than a few andro/tomboy girls, I don't think you are going to get much from the trans woman side of things. There just aren't many (any) butch trans girls on Susan's, at least at the moment.
And even for the andros, the pressure is often in the opposite direction - be more feminine, wear lipstick, blah blah. Whether it's from other trans women or family or friends (or all of the above), the expectation is femininity. If I was facing pressure to be more masculine, or even no pressure at all, I'd probably relate better.
As it is, I'm just starting to adjust to the idea that I can take on some aspects of femininity without losing my identity, and that I don't have to fight for every inch like it's the last stand. :P
Quote from: Nygeel on September 04, 2011, 11:49:11 PM
Just thought more masculine/butch identified trans women and feminine/fem identified trans men would respond.
Maybe there aren't many that identify like that. I would guess that not many women with this condition would identify as masculine, for obvious reasons, and likewise vice-versa for men with it. Terms like "masculine", "butch", "fem", etc are all highly gendered terms. The only the gendered terms that apply to me are lesbian and woman. I suppose some might say I'm more toward the andro/butch end, but I don't apply (nor accept) that model to myself. Even being a butch woman isn't the same as being a masculine woman, if such even exists. Seems like an oxymoron to me.
Quote from: Nygeel on September 04, 2011, 06:50:47 PM
This is something I've been thinking about posting for awhile. Since I've started becoming more comfortable with myself physically I've become more comfortable with a more feminine expression, and experimenting. I feel like now I can be more okay with exporing my gender because I'm more okay with myself.
I've actually thought about this too. I'm still pre-everything, but the more I've come to terms with myself in my mind, the more I realize how much I do try to distance myself from femininity. I think I do overcompensate at times, and don't participate in activities that would be seen as "feminine" even if I think I might like them. If I wasn't always worried about people seeing me as female, I think I would be much more comfortable with getting in touch with and expressing my feminine side. I suspect I may be more feminine than I'm even allowing myself to realize at this point. So yes, I've experienced something similar.
Quote from: Pinkfluff on September 05, 2011, 12:37:57 AM
Maybe there aren't many that identify like that. I would guess that not many women with this condition would identify as masculine, for obvious reasons, and likewise vice-versa for men with it. Terms like "masculine", "butch", "fem", etc are all highly gendered terms. The only the gendered terms that apply to me are lesbian and woman. I suppose some might say I'm more toward the andro/butch end, but I don't apply (nor accept) that model to myself. Even being a butch woman isn't the same as being a masculine woman, if such even exists. Seems like an oxymoron to me.
I do know a few femme trans men and butch trans women, so it's not as if they don't exist. I don't think that masculine, butch or fem are gendered terms by themselves. I think they can be...sort of like adjectives to help describe what type of man or woman you are. I know that these people actually get a lot of crap inside the trans community because their ideals and goals (regarding transition) aren't the same as the sort of...mainstream trans narrative.
Quote from: Nygeel on September 05, 2011, 11:09:48 AM
I know that these people actually get a lot of crap inside the trans community because their ideals and goals (regarding transition) aren't the same as the sort of...mainstream trans narrative.
Or histories. And no kidding. :(
Moreover it's hard to even come to the point of identifying as trans, because you are just so far away from the standard model of what trans is "supposed" to be. Meeting the director of
She's a Boy I Knew was a huge relief for me - Gwen is, or was at the time anyway, a fairly masculine-presenting post-transition gay trans girl. I was like "omg, there actually are people like me!"
And yes, of course, you can be female and masculine. One is about your body and identity, the other is how you present and behave. Or rather you can if you are cis. If you are trans, apparently you are a freak if you never liked barbies.
I'll bite on this one.
Though I am not fully into a transition, I find myself less aggravated with masculine things then I was before I was able to at least quietly (at home alone with out risk of my SO leaving me) express myself in a more feminine way. In the past it would always raise my blood pressure (to say the least) even to have someone (mostly men) come up to me in a publicly social environment and say "Soooo you gunna watch the game/race tonight?" or "How many deer did you kill this year?" or to have my only interaction with females be "hey, your a handy type guy, how do I fix my <insert home appliance/vehicle/electronic item here> it's doing <insert lack of normal operation here>?"
I know that if I do go into a full transition I hope I'm still going to want to fix/build things (I also LOVE vehicle junk yards, I just wish I could get a fuel pump from them), or get excited when I contemplate the idea of going to the hardware store or various other things like that. I've meet a lot of women that are handy type people, though I wouldn't call them butch. They're just willing to ... get their hands dirty (trying to be P.C. since there's been people complaining about sexism) ... as long as it means they've fixed something on their own and didn't have to pay some guy to do it for them.
Have I been experimenting with adding more masculine ways to express myself? No. But like I said in the beginning at least now I can allow a little bit more of the masculine things about being a male to not piss me off the way it did in the past (though I still have days where my 'being out in public' timer runs out real fast and I have to go back home in order not to go all super villain on the general population of the world).
Let me add something to this real quick.
I also worry about how I will be treated if I do transition because I do like to do these kinds of things. One of the problems I'm having with my SO is she never expected me to wish I was a woman because I DO like working on cars so much and I DO like to chug a soda and burp from time to time. She has said though that I'll never know what it's really like to be a female because I'll never have to ask someone to get something for me that I can't reach (my so is a bit short). She got pissed at me when I brought home a little stepping stool that is the perfect height for her to be able to reach things on the top shelf (I think cause she likes making me stop what I'm doing and give her attention).
* For trans women, have you become more comfortable with exploring and expressing masculinity after transitioning (or while transitioning...whatever that may mean for you)? *
Well, the most immediate thing that comes to mind is dress.
I freaked with GID when I had to wear any male stuff, walk through a male section of a department store would set if off, etc.
Now, 1 2/3 years into transition I can handle it --- mostly. I realize my previous behaviour was quite neurotic. VERY defensive. There is more to it but let that suffice, lest I be accused of sexism toward cis-males.
Those guys are just fine so long I do not have to be one :-)
Since I live on my own in a house, I do have to use my 'fixing' skills (I refused for quite a while) --- it's not something a cherish, as good as I am at it if the chips are down.
Say like replacing a pool pump, bird securing some gutter so they don't poo all over the place. Replacing a hot water geysers. I'm good with it, but it doesn't mean I like it.
Um,
Axelle
Quote from: LivingInGrey on September 05, 2011, 12:00:51 PM
I know that if I do go into a full transition I hope I'm still going to want to fix/build things (I also LOVE vehicle junk yards, I just wish I could get a fuel pump from them)
this reminds me of my last junk yard visit. I used to love going there but last time I was just out of strength in my arms. I lost control over the ratchet and slammed my chest against a car body. My boobs hurt like hell. After like almost 2 hours I found myself totally beat up, dirty, achy and tired. I was struggling with this experience as I didn't get the same kick out if it as I am used to. This is not the only activity that does not bring me the same satisfaction any more.
Quote from: LivingInGrey on September 05, 2011, 12:00:51 PM
Have I been experimenting with adding more masculine ways to express myself? No. But like I said in the beginning at least now I can allow a little bit more of the masculine things about being a male to not piss me off the way it did in the past (though I still have days where my 'being out in public' timer runs out real fast and I have to go back home in order not to go all super villain on the general population of the world).
I also find myself more accepting of guys and their interests or behavior as i am not any more associated with them.
Yes! I had actually been considering posting a topic like this a few days ago. haha.
I am a gay man, but before I realized what I am or that it was possible, I basically sulked around and refused to do anything to my appearance that would automatically scream 'girl' or even just look feminine. Since I've come out, I think I've actually been talking in a slightly higher pitch than I used to, I'm okay with sitting around in public sewing little rabbit plushies, and I've even brought homemade cookies to school on a My Little Pony plate. Not to mention that I'm okay with wearing bright purple skinny jeans and a t-shirt that's not baggy (even tight, sometimes, but only when I have my binder on).
I haven't started medically transitioning yet, but I'm getting doctor information tomorrow. I've always been able to, if not pass as male, then at least be so ambiguous that nobody used any pronouns in regard to me unless they were specifically told what I was. Now that I've accepted that it is possible for me to still be transsexual even though I'm gay, I think I've become more comfortable with expressing my feminine and ultra-flamboyant side, and that my comfort level has allowed me to pass even better.
I guess this might be a different phrasing that could work...
While transitioning many of us start by acting very masculine or very feminine then get to a point where we don't care about what's masculine or feminine.
True? Experiences?
Quote from: Nygeel on September 06, 2011, 08:11:07 AM
I guess this might be a different phrasing that could work...
While transitioning many of us start by acting very masculine or very feminine then get to a point where we don't care about what's masculine or feminine.
True? Experiences?
I guess that's the hard part about what your asking. Each person is going to have their own idea of what's masculine and feminine. For me, I don't see having the urge to build something with tools a completely masculine trait. Some of the better mechanics I've known have been females, some of the most avid football (American football that is) fans I've meet have been females and some of the more overtly gross people I've meet have been females (burping, farting and sometimes the most smelly...).
I'll agree that it's more common to see men more interested in sports and stuff but women in my opinion are more extreme in those kinds of items then men are when you find them. It's not often you find a guy sitting in a park bench sewing little rabbit plushies (not trying to pick on you Vincent but just the image of Sylvester Stallone from Demolition Man came to mind).
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_XmU1Du1EHOg%2FTTi0YDGcyvI%2FAAAAAAAAAJE%2F8Qg05rl3a9A%2Fs400%2FVImage003.jpg.bmp&hash=21407826b332d62b6cae3b84dac5fd31ae9164bb) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_XmU1Du1EHOg%2FTTi06vqFflI%2FAAAAAAAAAJI%2Fk4Dz5_m8-oo%2Fs320%2FVImage005.jpg.bmp&hash=57ce89f494b4a1d141ecafffeab94d8886584f45)
Quote from: LivingInGrey on September 06, 2011, 10:20:32 AM
I'll agree that it's more common to see men more interested in sports and stuff but women in my opinion are more extreme in those kinds of items then men are when you find them. It's not often you find a guy sitting in a park bench sewing little rabbit plushies (not trying to pick on you Vincent but just the image of Sylvester Stallone from Demolition Man came to mind).
Haha. I assure you, I feel completely unpicked! :) I am perfectly fine with being an eccentric flamer, though it'd be pretty awesome if I could look like that (just for a few hours) while sewing my bunnies; I would boggle so many peoples' minds.
It's true that everyone's ideas of masculine/feminine differ, particularly based on the individual's own interests as well as how he/she was raised. I've noticed that with most people, if they meet a woman engaging in 'masculine' things, then to them she'll seem to be very extreme about it and go all out. The same impression seems to occur with men doing 'feminine' things. I don't think this sums up a person in his/her entirety, but it does seem that that is the main thing that other people focus on. Then again, people do tend to home in on anything not 'normal' and then obsess over it, so perhaps that's part of it.
As with anything, it's completely up to the individual and how he/she sees him/herself.
Generally, I express myself however I want, however it's really the reactions from people that hold what I'd like to change. I also get pretty shy and very introverted after hours of people insulting my facial features that contradict my outer identity, it gets tough.