I pose this incendiary question. I need a sample of answers because I may come to write about it. I don't want you to think of the current definition of transsexual. I was wondering if there are people who consider being or becoming transsexual the big facet of their identity.
This is what I mean: Imagine you don't consider yourself a man or woman, you consider yourself a transsexual. Why? For what gain? Would you not ultimately consider yourself androgyn if that were the case? Would androgyn people be offended? Would transsexual people be offended? Just something that intrigues me every now and then.
I guess I want the answer to these Q?'s (and please refrain from taking anyone's response personally, if you can't do so, PM me):
Have you ever heard of someone who considers themselves a transsexual and not a mtf or ftm?
Are you a person who considers ... ''
What would be your reaction to someone who told you they wanted to become transsexual?
What might you think a valid treatment for this person may be?
There is one way that I can see this making sense. A person might not have a binary identity yet be transsexual in the sense that they have the body discomfort that many transsexual people have. Usually they don't identify as transsexual as a gender in and of itself. It's more likely that they consider themselves a non binary gender (ex: gender queer, androgyne, bigender, pangender, agender) but identify their physical self with some sort of binary.
Take for example a person who is assigned male at birth. Somebody can be assigned male at birth and identify their physical self and relate to their body as if it were a female body (example: trans women). In the cases of some people with non binary identities some might identify their physical bodies with the language "opposite" if their assigned sex...and in that case can be transsexual and not identify as a man or woman (specifically).
I would tend to assume they just hadn't expressed themselves very well, and were new to the mess of terminology in the trans community.
Nygeel, your point is clever. But I'd think they'd still identify as transsexual "something." I.e. transsexual female, or transsexual male, instead of transsexual woman or transsexual man. And I don't think they'd describe it as "wanting to become transsexual" regardless.
Really it sounds quite odd. Like someone telling you they want to become gay. I wouldn't be offended... somewhat confused, yes, but not offended.
And Emma, if we are to ignore the current definition of transsexual, than it can mean becoming a banana farmer if you want it to. Either we accept the current definition or the question becomes kind of meaningless.
Maybe a transsexual woman would feel that she doesn't deserve to be called a woman because of her biology. I feel that way sometimes, not with my gender identity, but with my sexual orientation. And it also has to do with like, people judging transsexuals as gay men who want to predator on straight men. Frankly it doesn't matter who I'm attracted to, but I happen to be attracted to guys so, it kind of makes me not want to identify as a straight woman, but definitely not as a gay man.
Quote from: Sarah7 on September 08, 2011, 07:27:40 PM
I would tend to assume they just hadn't expressed themselves very well, and were new to the mess of terminology in the trans community.
Nygeel, your point is clever. But I'd think they'd still identify as transsexual "something." I.e. transsexual female, or transsexual male, instead of transsexual woman or transsexual man. And I don't think they'd describe it as "wanting to become transsexual" regardless.
Really it sounds quite odd. Like someone telling you they want to become gay. I wouldn't be offended... somewhat confused, yes, but not offended.
And Emma, if we are to ignore the current definition of transsexual, than it can mean becoming a banana farmer if you want it to. Either we accept the current definition or the question becomes kind of meaningless.
I suppose that they could be, but part of the hypothetical was "Imagine you don't consider yourself a man or woman, you consider yourself a transsexual." Which is what I was mostly addressing.
hmm, I have never been so hot on the term MTF because that at one point implies I was a man. I tend to prefer transwoman, since it leaves out the M bit. However, I do identify as being a woman, I only see the trans as being important to add in front of it, when it is needed, much like Ciswoman would be used specifically to exclude transpeople. I consider myself a transexual because i am planning to/in the start of transitioning, however I don't really find myself comfortable being defined by my transexuality.
As to the first question, I can see how some people could take that sort of Idea that I have and go further and deny having any label at all aside from transexual perhaps not even defining a gender binary at all. For the record, I definitely consider myself a woman hence an MTF, even if I am not so hot on the term. Though I cannot recall a specific person meeting the criteria in the first question.
As to the second question, I think if someone asked me that, I would try to figure out if they had gender dysphoria. I mean, people phrase things like that all the time "I want to become a woman" is something many people say in lieu of "I have always been a woman, and I need to medically transition to female in order to make my body match my perceptions and feelings". After all, it certainly is alot shorter.
Taking the second question further, if someone didn't have GID, nor did they have a profound desire to live as another gender (or androgynous) I would have to tell them that I don't have the experience to help them. To me that is tantamount to someone asking me to change their sexual orientation for them, I don't think it can be done, and if it could, I certainly couldn't help them.
As far as a valid treatment for that person, probably some real therapy to see why that person feels that way. Transition isn't really for someone who doesn't want to live in the target gender. I mean, I could see someone who wants to transition to androgynous and for them, I say the treatment would be to transition as far away from their birth gender as they feel comfortable doing.
I do see myself as a transsexual rather than just as a man. Personally, I think that makes me more than a man, not less. I identify that way because I want to bring transsexuality into the everyday light and not go into "stealth" mode. I think it's important for people to meet transsexuals and find out they're regular folks for the most part.
Of course being transexual is a valid identity among the vast spectrum of identities. Surely to deny any human being the validity of their identity would be both cruel and wrong.
NO. I consider it a descriptor word but not an identity.
Quote from: Caseyy on September 08, 2011, 08:08:01 PM
Hm, I don't know. I suppose I can see someone identifying as transsexual for political reasons. Like, because of all the crap they had to put up with for who they are, they may align with trans people politically. I imagine they have GID like the rest of us, they just place more emphasis on their social position as opposed to physical/mental identity.
That's how I feel. Trans- means in motion, so you're in the process of moving from one gender to the other. I wouldn't want to identify as Trans in the long term, but must for the years of the in-between stage.
I want the mainstream society to identify me as a woman but use Transgendered(MTF) as a way to speak to my community here.
Great question by the way...
Jen
Quote from: Jenny_B_Good on September 08, 2011, 09:05:56 PM
I want the mainstream society to identify me as a woman but use Transgendered(MTF) as a way to speak to my community here.
I feel differently. I think that "trans" is a discriptor of the type of man I am. I feel like it isn't a verb (aka shouldn't have an "ed" tagged on the end) and "MTF" or "FTM" implies a start point and an end point while also focusing on just sex. I use trans woman or trans man instead.
I believe it was Cindy James (or maybe someone else) earlier who said something which seems apt to this thread:
There are seven billion people with seven billion identities.
Very interesting, maybe I should add a poll.
I see it as an "intermediate identity' , one that serves us whilst we start, and go through, transition.
Frankly, and it has been already mentioned, some times I do not feel like a woman, yet never feel like a man.
The 'man thing' repulses me, it is connected to too much misunderstandings, pain, tensions, discomfort, and generally ALWAYS being in the wrong place.
The female side just sometime goes to a 'zero' on my emo dial.
But take NOTE! I do notice when it happens!
I spoke to ggs about this feeling of 'zero' or just neutral, and after some short reflection it was agreed to be just normal for this to be so.
I think we are for quite some time in 'transsexual mode' until one's gender of choice as been fully assimilated. Then if you go to 'zero' you will not question, nor even take note of it.
So again, transsexual to me seems a "transitionary identity", one that people can also relate to for instance if you clocked, and get asked about what your 'case' is.
As far as Andro is concerned it leaves most anyone and their uncle with one big fat question mark.
Often the Andro person being included, it's just that they seem so much more often then not, perfectly fine by living in this big ?
Axelle
I think some people do have that identity. I don't understand it personally, but I don't understand having the identity of "man" either.
I'm certainly not offended by somebody having a TS identity and I don't see why it would not be valid.
Honestly, it always is frustrating, dealing with labels. Labels are simply expectations, there's no identity on earth I consider to be wrong unless it requires breaking the law; to me, it doesn't matter if an identity is based in gender, religion, a career, sports, ect ect, everyone has an identity, and only for the most stereotypical people does that identity reach only to "boy" or "girl".
For me, my identity is based on many things, way more things than gender. Every career choice, every hobby, every interest, and every expression is part of my identity; however, all of those things do connect in obvious ways to the fact that, my entire life, I've always wanted to be a girl or at least a very pretty boy.
And for me, it's always been tough to say "I want to be a girl." because to be quite honest, transitioning is a scary thought. However, every tiny thing I've always wanted, and every tiny thing I enjoy, and every tiny way I express myself - it all comes together and creates what is defined as a girl. I have it all on the inside, and I merely want my outside to express that exact incarnation.
I have absolutely not one tiny reason why I would want to look like a masculine, rugged man, and it's painful every day to wake up as one. I want to transition, and never look back on the face and body I have now - being able to finally represent myself would open up so many natural doors for me; relationships, specific job opportunities (female actress roles), confidence, clothing, everything that makes up the life of someone who doesn't have our disorder.
For me, being transsexual is about knowing that you truly don't have one solid reason to be in the body you were born with. People without our disorder like their own natal sex because, egged on by their interests, hobbies, and careers, they find beneficial reasons to be the sex they were born with. All the men who love sports, all the girls who love skirts, many people out there happily are very stereotypical about their own sex and enjoy being who they are. But for me, my face and body is not a part of my identity, it's something I have to constantly ignore and disassociate myself with in order to function and live, and that is simply extremely unhealthy. People have to be proud of the bodies they live in, and I simply want to achieve that.
Of coarse, I want surgery, and of coarse, I want hormones. Even if I accomplish every goal I want with my body, will I say "I'm a girl." in the end? Again, it's a very strange thing to say, and I sometimes do find myself saying "I'm a transsexual" instead. I mean, I've dealt with a lot in my years of living, one of those things being that I wasn't born a girl. I healthily accepted that phrase a long time ago, and I've healthily accepted that I know I have a transition to undergo. So somehow, I see my end result as being neither male or female, but more as a representation of "me". I mean, I was born a boy, and that'll always be a fact. Why do I have to fight with the terminology of that, just to achieve the physical representation of "me" that I want?
Another thing I fight constantly with is the fact that I do believe I'll never look fully like a girl. I have so many, many secondary male traits, especially facially, that I do not believe (and this is concluded with my extensive education in craniofacial surgery and aesthetics) I'll ever look totally female. I do believe, very painfully, that I may have to accept being "androgynous" in the end, in the best case surgical scenario. However, no matter what label I feel I will have to accept in the end, I know that I do want as many improvements (FFS) as I can; no matter wether I'll ever look totally female or not, I know that I want a face that truly is more harmonious, bright, healthy, and soft. It's the most important thing in the world to me.
One thing I personally see about myself is I feel like, as of right now, I look like a mixture of Shrek, Tom Cruise, and Milla Jovovich. I look uncannily like Milla Jovovich in overall character, same hair, same wide-set dark eyes, same chin, I really look a lot like her - she even has a prominent brow bone. However, my own facial features have truly become severe in the past few years, and the Shrek and Tom Cruise has come out way, way too much. I know it's time to let the Milla shine through again; with a bit of brow reduction and nasal revision, I could literally be her twin. However, with my current features, I'm unmistakingly a boy, there's not one percentage of my current face that could fool anyone.
I really don't know why it's important to put labels on ourselves and to have endless discussions about that labels.
For me, I'm just an ordinairy woman, who had a long and hard way to get the body that belongs to that woman.
Emma...you're just a woman who is walking that way to get the body that suits you.
It's just that simple.
Maybe it's too simple but hey......read my signature.
It surely depends where you're from, too. As a non-American, I still find the word "transsexual" alien, since the standard term over here in Britain is "transgender". And "transsexual" inevitably makes me think of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, too, since that's where I first heard the term ::). I can't help making a mental association between the word and "sexuality", since it most obviously parallels "homosexual" and "bisexual" - I just don't hear the claimed "sexual of course means sex as in male/female" sense, which to me feels forced and old-fashioned.
I've no interest in ever using it to describe myself or anyone else, as I'm not comfortable with it as a term. If someone else used it to describe themselves, I'd just do what I try to do when someone uses any label, which is to ask what it means to them - since you can never, never assume. As it goes, I don't use the word transgender either, I always say to people "I'm currently going through a gender transition" - it's something happening, not something I "am". As far as I'm concerned, I was supposed to be a woman but got kidnapped before I was born - now I'm just heading home.
Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 05:55:23 AMTranssexuals who use the word transgender instead proliferate the problem. I think it partly comes down to shame.
I think you're making a lot of assumptions here. I think different people just have very different associations with the words. For example, I won't let someone call me "transsexual" (just because they think as a pre-op I come under that heading in their minds) - because I don't like the word. Shame is non-existent and irrelevant to this dislike.
I still think you're assuming :) - not wishing to be stigmatised is just as likely to be a response of self-care as one of shame. If a label is sometimes loaded in an unappealing way, I think it's a positive thing to make the choice not to have it hung on me. It is of course, as you say, also possible that certain people don't want to be tarred with whatever they think the tar is on that brush because they're ashamed (or afraid).
I'm sorry if I've been a little "prickly" in my response to what you've been saying - I think it's because (due the the shame part) it felt to me a little like you were saying that as someone who wants to have surgery, I "should" want to call myself transsexual, and if I don't there's something wrong with me! I'm sure that's not what you're actually saying. And I understand that given some of the connotations of transgender, you don't want to be pushed under that label against your wishes any more than I want to be pushed under the other - or either label, for that matter. Labels should be a matter of self-choice, ideally, and trying to make them one-size-fits-all in as individual a context as this is bound to be unsatisfactory.
One big reason I ask is because I think of people who will approach a doc with a different understanding of their trans identity and explain to them: "for various reasons I feel I am not what I was born as, but I understand that I will never fit into any binary no matter what. I still want to address my transsexual identity by transitioning, and I want to be acknowledged as a transsexual publicly and legally from here on out."
I can see that happening somehow.
It's all so loaded, isn't it? If only it were as simple as this: anyone who experiences themselves as being a different sex/gender (or somewhere in that field of play) from the one they were born presenting as, and wishes or needs some kind of change to experience that and or present it comfortably could just do so. Then no names or diagnoses would be necessary.
But there are politics, and finances, and prejudices, and historical misdiagnoses at work, and so it's so easy for individuals at one place in that field of play to feel marginalised by the way the system approaches dealing with helping people to do this.
Personally, I don't have an issue with someone wanting me to accept them as a man or woman (or something they feel is neither) if they experience themselves as that, regardless of how they choose to present and whether the journey for them involves surgery or hormones or any changes of outward appearance or not. But the impact of a history of the health professions pathologising this, and a history of general and religious prejudice, and a history of blistering attacks from certain feminists, has left this terrible divisive battle zone where people are made to feel the need to justify their desire or position or whatever for safety's sake (instead of simply rejoicing in it and being rejoiced in), and to do that sometimes at each others' expense. And people who have been through all that and got to where they want to be sometimes are not allowed simply to say: this is me now, end of story.
As far as identity or categorizing myself goes, I'm just me. Transsexual is just a term and says nothing about one's personality. I am defined by WHO I am and not WHAT I am.
I added a poll, and I tried to word it in a way that makes sense. Hard to do.
I would just like to say that I think we have all done a wonderful job discussing this so far with tact. Things tend to get really loaded when it comes to our opinions on identity. I am happy to read all the well thought out and nonaggresive posts, truly it brings a smile to my face.
As to the poll, I say yes, since someone who doesn't have a gender binary may not reach an "end" to their transition therefore are always trans in some way. While I personally only identify as a woman I can see how it could be hard to come to grips with things, if you were somewhere in between, but still felt the desire to transition at least partway away from the birth gender.
Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 05:55:23 AM
Yes, there could be a generational aspect too. Younger folks may prefer one word and older another. Maybe some of the usage is not our fault as much as what era and location we grew up in.
What a ridiculous issue this is. As if our condition isnt challenging enough. Why in the world did people decide to use different words (shame, likely). Then its compounded that with some usage they are intentionally intended to have different meanings.
We can only blame the community itself, which is all of us. Transsexuals who use the word transgender instead proliferate the problem. I think it partly comes down to shame.
Whether because of shame or something else, we have certainly proven ourselves poor stewards of our nomenclature, that's for sure. Maybe we need somebody from the outside to come in and tell us once and for all what all these terms actually mean lol.
Quote from: Jen on September 10, 2011, 10:03:04 PM
Maybe we need somebody from the outside to come in and tell us once and for all what all these terms actually mean lol.
That would make a great spectator sport ;D.
Congratulations Emma on a nice topic and on how it is being conducted.
I'm not sure if I could ever accept myself as transsexual or transgendered. They are words used to describe a situation to those who do not understand the situation. Because of how humans communicate we have describe events in a way that the 'lowest denominators' in the group can follow (not meant rudely). So we build a language, but as soon as that language is created it is subject to change and interpretation. Hence lawyers. But the intent of the language was to describe for those who cannot physically observe, what is happening.
The down side of language is that people have visual perceptions of it, 'I'm transgendered' 'Oh I saw people like you in the Rocky Horror Show' No they did not. 'I'm a transsexual' ' 'Oh next time you are doing your drag show call us and we will come along' They do not understand.
The terms themselves do not convey the information. They have become misunderstood. They present pictures that are false. So how can we (royal we) accept a definition of my life style as being transsexual? I cannot.
How do I define myself? That is an interesting question. I was asked it last night to join a couple of woman for after dinner drinks, I looked alone :laugh: and out of place they said. My voice gave me away, I think, and we talked about all sorts of things in a friendly open manner, yes we were sloshed :laugh:. I was never asked if I was a TS or a TG. I was a woman with a deepish voice.
I can only accept a definition as being female, which is biologically incorrect. I do refer to myself as an XY-female to my medical team, which is correct.
Cindy
Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 05:55:23 AM
Transsexuals who use the word transgender instead proliferate the problem. I think it partly comes down to shame.
I remember coming out alot of folks were uncomfortable with calling me a transsexual and would use transgender to me to my face.
That is so utterly wrong in so any different ways.
I label myself as Transgender and it is NOT because of shame. I am the first transgender girl who ever applied to my Christian Seminary. I speak at trans events as a Transgender Seminary Student to bridge gaps between gender identity and harmony between the church. Do you think someone who is shameful about their gender identity would put themselves through that? I think not.
For you it may be because of shame but don't assume that with those who use the word transgender are girls too scared or too meek or shameful to use the label transsexual.
I use transgender over transsexual because it has
nothing to do with my sexuality. It has everything
to do with my gender. Both Transgender and transsexual has "trans" in it which means to crossover. I am not crossing over any sexuality as this is about gender for me; so I Chose Transgender as my gender presentation has changed.
Also, you got Homo
sexual, Hetero
sexual, Bi
sexual, A
sexual, and then you got trans
sexual. Every other word in this group implies their sexual attraction. For example: homo=same, Hetero= different, A= none; so yeah. What about transsexual? Oh, that has nothing to do with your sexuality. Well, based on it's own meaning of "sexual" and the way its group with these others many people would assume a transsexual can be someone attracted to trans people. The term is antiquated and old. And it is horribly misdefined. I chose not to use it. I don't. There is no shame in it. If other people wish to use it, then fine. But don't go around saying "people who don't use it is ashamed of who they are"
Gets me all riled up when people assume things just because they want to be labeled as something else other than transsexual. I guess all of the United Kingdom is shameful too as their official term is transgender. The BS of one term being better is getting quite old and reminds me of a bunch of older ladies arguing about which of their bowling balls are prettier.
You're going to have to make peace with that fact that not everyone will agree with "Transsexual" and it's not because they are ashamed of who they are. And people will continue to use transgender for decades to come. I will be one of them. You may think it's wrong or that I am ashamed but oh well. I will still use it.
I have changed my gender presentation, not gender, and I also plan on changing much of my physical sex. The term should really be transsexed if they expect permanent, literal labels. I like the Solidarity of the lgbt inclusive umbrella, but telling someone about myself doesn't work out well when I use transgender.
Female after surgery, and transsexual until then work for me until we get something better. I think I'm okay with every viewpoint captured here...
Also, I'm convinced there has to be a summit to iron this out.
Mods- I don't think I can, so will someone please close the thread. (unless you want it open)
Quote from: EmmaM on September 11, 2011, 11:23:37 AM
I have changed my gender presentation, not gender, and I also plan on changing much of my physical sex. The term should really be transsexed if they expect permanent, literal labels. I like the Solidarity of the lgbt inclusive umbrella, but telling someone about myself doesn't work out well when I use transgender.
Female after surgery, and transsexual until then work for me until we get something better. I think I'm okay with every viewpoint captured here...
I do agree. Transsexed is a much better term than both. Both transgender and transsexual has its flaws. For me, I pick the lesser of the two misdefined words as I say I changed my gender presentation. My sexuality has always stayed the same so I am not going to use transsexual when describing myself. My sexual attraction is pansexual so i chose not to use transsexual either.
Quote from: Valeriedances on September 11, 2011, 11:30:04 AM
Why bother arguing, it is pointless. You totally misunderstood my statement.
If i misread your post then you need to reword it better. When two of us respond that you are being quite presumptious then it is not us who misread your post but it is you who did not word it properly.
And yes, I have read your other posts....i know what your stand is against the label. I've seen this argument from you on a many of occasions.
You like "transsexual" and that's awesome but don't put down other labels or think its inferior. Transgender is here to stay and no crusade will change it.
I'm done in this thread. Ive had my fair share of seeing how ugly people can be with labels. Oh, and I removed "Sweetheart" since I know how much you do not like labels.
Emma, it is a good thread. No shame in it for it to be locked.
Oh, and Valerie, nice try with the me assuming I bash post op women and baiting me into the whole "I bash post op women because I do not use the word transsexual" because it wont work with me (or did I read that wrong too?). I am having my surgery in less than 40 days and I will still use the label "Transgender" after my surgery and I currently know MANY women who are post op who agrees with me that the label police is so 1990s.
Or will my opinions only be valid after 40 days and after the surgery? Nope.
No shame, just no prevalent forming opinion. Plus, people were kind of hesitant to answer the poll. I can put it all back together, but it seems like it's more of the same difference in individual opinion.
Locking this topic at Emma's request.