The 7th version of the WPATH Standards of Care for transgender individuals have just been announced. In brief, we will no longer be required to have psychotherapy for hormones or surgery, but an assessment will have to be performed by the hormone provider. Therapy is suggested though. An orchi or hysterectomy will no longer require any RLE time, but SRS will still require the year. The SOC is generally more flexible to accommodate those of us who do not fall along the gender binary eg. if you are gender queer, you do not need to be on hormones to have your breasts removed. Finally, being transgender is no longer a pathology. It is NOT Gender Identity Disorder. Here is a link to an article with a bit more detail.
http://www.thegavoice.com/index.php/news/national-news/3497-wpath-announces-new-standards-of-care-for-transgender-and-gender-nonconforming-people (http://www.thegavoice.com/index.php/news/national-news/3497-wpath-announces-new-standards-of-care-for-transgender-and-gender-nonconforming-people)
I have been reading it.
No critique yet.
anxious to the the actually summary and not just an overview but it looks really good from the comments.
I wonder when these become "effective" ?
Has any one got a physical link to the actual the 7th version of the SOC
Kind regards
Sarah B
This is really amazing! A cause for celebration ladies!
I have found one from here SOC (http://www.thisishow.org/Files/soc7.pdf)
Kind regards
Sarah B
Woooohoooo!
YAY!
Cool beans! :eusa_clap: :icon_dance: :icon_joy:
Thanks for sharing.
Doesn't really change anything if you're not transgender though...and as horrible as this sound I think it runs the risk of turning what are quite major surgeries into little more than body modifications.
This is a copy of the e-mail that was forwarded to me that gives a summary of some of the major revisions:
You can find the new Standards of Care for transgender people at
http://www.thisishow.org/Files/soc7.pdf (http://www.thisishow.org/Files/soc7.pdf)
====================
Exciting News for Trans Clients!
Also on:http://www.thecounselinghut.org/SOCv7.shtml
Jordan Shin, MS, LPC
On September 25, 2011, World Professional Organization for Transgender
Health (WPATH) http://wpath.org/ (http://wpath.org/) announced the launching of the new
Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender
Nonconforming People, 7th edition (SOCv7). The new SOCv7 is a significant
revision of the Standards of Care (SOC) in structure, philosophy, and
language that was four years in the making, with a new emphasis on
provider responsibility that replaces previous emphasis on client
responsibility. If you are a member of the trans and allies community,
please let as many people know as possible about this change. If you are
working with a medical or mental health professional, please let them know
that the new SOC is a significant revision. The document itself will be
available on the WPATH Web site on September 26, 2011.
Here is a summary of changes:
1. Removal of the phrase "Gender Identity Disorder" from the title. This
document is no longer about the treatment of a "disorder", but about the
prevention and treatment of distress experienced by transsexual,
transgender, and gender nonconforming people. SOCv7 emphasizes that gender
nonconformity or variance is not a pathology, but an identity.
2. Emphasis on how to provide holistic healthcare for transsexual,
transgender, and gender nonconforming people. It is no longer "just about
hormones and surgery". It discusses treatments "beyond hormones and
surgery", such as preventive and primary care, post-operative care, mental
health concerns, eTherapy, voice and communication coaching, and
reproductive health. An overview of medical risks of hormone therapies is
included as well.
3. Emphasis on what professionals need to do, not what patients need to
prove or achieve to get gender-related care. SOCv7 makes it clear that
reparative therapy for gender concerns is<i>unethical</i>.
4. Emphasis on harm reduction and informed consent, rather than
"gatekeeping". It emphasizes that the SOC needs to be applied flexibly and
in response to individual needs, and adapted to the needs of different
communities around the world.
5. Simplified, more humanized transitioning process:
--No more "triadic sequence".
--No more distinction between "eligibility" and "readiness".
--No mention of "real life experience", although living "continuously for
at least 12 months in the gender role that is congruent with their gender
identity" still is recommended before genital surgery.
--Allowance for medical gender specialists, rather than just mental health
professionals, to recommend hormone therapy.
--No more distinction between master's level and doctoral level mental
health professionals for surgery recommendation.
Perhaps most importantly, unlike the previous SOCs, SOCv7 is fully
"evidence based", and scientific data supporting its recommendations are
included in the new references section and a review of literature.
The revision was an unprecedentedly multidisciplinary process involving
medical, mental health, and legal professionals, as well as community
members and activists, and panels of advisors from across the world. While
it does not, and could not, meet the needs of everyone across the globe,
it provides a foundation that can be readily adapted to different
cultural, social, and national contexts.
Please do not hesitate to contact Jordan Shin
at info@thecounselinghut.org if you
have any questions.
According to page 104 and forward hormones and surgeries require
"1. Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria;"
That gives a lot of power to the psych*s in deciding what is persistent and well-documented. With some GIC's i.e. the Danish one requiring life long display of crossgender behaviour we can no longer argue that SoC requires only a 3 month RLE.
According to the criteria hysterectomy no longer requires psychiatric referral. With a lot of countries world wide allowing legal recognition of transmen who undergo hysterectomy yet requiring transwomen to undergo vaginoplasty this instills massive discrimination!
I look forward to reading through the whole document, but for now I hope version 7.1 will soon be released!
Quote from: Gravity's Child on September 26, 2011, 09:19:14 AM
Doesn't really change anything if you're not transgender though...and as horrible as this sound I think it runs the risk of turning what are quite major surgeries into little more than body modifications.
I disagree. I think this is a step in the right direction in acknowledging that few trans people actually have SRS because most of us can't afford it. And this is especially the case for transmen as it's far more expensive for them than it is for us. Only those who are sufficiently class privileged can afford SRS. In fact, this will only be more and more the case as the socioeconomic inequality in this country continues to grow. In other words, to emphasize SRS, is to privilege the already class privileged at the expense and neglect of the rest of us, and it is, in fact, to ignore the reality that most trans people don't have SRS.
Quote from: valyn_faer on September 26, 2011, 09:43:12 AM
I disagree. I think this is a step in the right direction in acknowledging that few trans people actually have SRS because most of us can't afford it. And this is especially the case for transmen as it's far more expensive for them than it is for us. Only those who are sufficiently class privileged can afford SRS. In fact, this will only be more and more the case as the socioeconomic inequality in this country continues to grow. In other words, to emphasize SRS, is to privilege the already class privileged at the expense and neglect of the rest of us, and it is, in fact, to ignore the reality that most trans people don't have SRS.
I assume you're talking specifically about people in the US here? WPATH is intended to be a worldwide guideline, and applicable to a wide range of differing systems of healthcare around the world.
Quote from: Padma on September 26, 2011, 10:00:35 AM
I assume you're talking specifically about people in the US here? WPATH is intended to be a worldwide guideline, and applicable to a wide range of differing systems of healthcare around the world.
If you talk world wide the percentage who get SRS probably plummets. The vast majority of the world's people are poor people living in third world countries who have neither the financial resources to afford SRS nor any sort of national health care system.
Sort of my point - that the WPATH document acknowledges people's desire for SRS (when they have such a desire) regardless of whether they're in a position to have it, by focusing on dysphoria as the common factor.
So, to understand, I should be able to go to Thailand and have SRS with Suporn without a letter from a gender therapist? A letter from my HRT doctor will be sufficient? And I've been full time 4 years now.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on September 26, 2011, 10:15:36 AM
So, to understand, I should be able to go to Thailand and have SRS with Suporn without a letter from a gender therapist? A letter from my HRT doctor will be sufficient? And I've been full time 4 years now.
That would entirely depend on Suporn or Suporn's insurance company. The SOC is non-binding.
Aye, SoC and WPATH are guidelines - each country/state/clinic/psychiatrist/surgeon still makes up their own rules and then flexes them or not depending on the individual.
Nope,
psych* evaluation is still required prior to genital surgery, breast/chest surgery, hysterectomy, oophorectomy or orchidectomy.
Only transwomen are required to undergo RLE prior to vaginoplasty and gender recognition in many countries though.
Tippe,
Some doctors do not require a letter for breast augmentation.
Dr. Nguyen in Lake Osewego doesn't. I had one in case he needed it but he didn't care if I had it or not. He does however require referals for orchi or srs.
Quote from: cynthialee on September 26, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
Tippe,
Some doctors do not require a letter for breast augmentation.
Dr. Nguyen in Lake Osewego doesn't. I had one in case he needed it but he didn't care if I had it or not. He does however require referals for orchi or srs.
I guess what was meant was mastectomy and not BA? Never heard about referral for BA.
I have many friends that have insurance coverage that includes SRS and the insurance companies follow the SoC. Under the old variation a person needed to have their name changed before the clock started counting for RLE. I haven't been able to get mine changed and so I had to prove with the Social Security web site that Brandon is infact a gender neutral name. None of the qaulifications for what is RLE exist in the new SoC.
How Government Insurance programs will implement the changes remains to be seen. I don't live in Denmark so I can only sympothize with your concerns.
Huggs
Emily
Quote from: valyn_faer on September 26, 2011, 09:43:12 AM
I disagree. I think this is a step in the right direction in acknowledging that few trans people actually have SRS because most of us can't afford it. And this is especially the case for transmen as it's far more expensive for them than it is for us. Only those who are sufficiently class privileged can afford SRS. In fact, this will only be more and more the case as the socioeconomic inequality in this country continues to grow. In other words, to emphasize SRS, is to privilege the already class privileged at the expense and neglect of the rest of us, and it is, in fact, to ignore the reality that most trans people don't have SRS.
Transgendered people generally don't have surgery...transexuals do. if that makes me sound eliteist then so be it, but I will never truly be a woman while I have that thing between my legs.
There have also been a few articles posted in News Forum about this.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106522.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106522.0.html)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106546.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106546.0.html)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106527.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106527.0.html)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106462.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106462.0.html)
It's not perfect IMO, but there are significant improvements.
Z
Quote from: Gravity's Child on September 26, 2011, 06:40:11 PM
Transgendered people generally don't have surgery...transexuals do [IF THEY POSSIBLY CAN]. if that makes me sound eliteist then so be it, but I will never truly be a woman while I have that thing between my legs.
A slight edit there. Don't hold it against those who can't raise the money or who are prevented by some other medical condition or whatever. I may never afford it, but i spent uncountable hours every day dwelling on how to make it happen.
if i could sell myself into slavery for a few years in order to have the money at the end I'd do it. But realistically, I don't know how i get from here to there right now.
I defy anyone to tell me I'm not transsexual because i don't get there (not saying you are saying that, just clarifying)
Quote from: Gravity's Child on September 26, 2011, 06:40:11 PM
Transgendered people generally don't have surgery...transexuals do. if that makes me sound eliteist then so be it, but I will never truly be a woman while I have that thing between my legs.
Are you arguing that a large number of transsexual individuals are unable to afford or undergo surgery for various reasons? I don't think anyone brought up transgender vs. transsexual in this topic...
Quote from: Cori on September 27, 2011, 01:04:39 AM
Are you arguing that a large number of transsexual individuals are unable to afford or undergo surgery for various reasons? I don't think anyone brought up transgender vs. transsexual in this topic...
this is like the latest hot topic. i was trying to avoid it, but there it is yet again. anyway, i am still female if i get srs or i don't. i don't know if i'm transgender or transsexual, but i've been told before i am transsexual, so that's all i need to know. i use transsexual and transgender as synonyms.
Quote from: Gravity's Child on September 26, 2011, 06:40:11 PM
Transgendered people generally don't have surgery...transexuals do. if that makes me sound eliteist then so be it, but I will never truly be a woman while I have that thing between my legs.
Helena what will you say when you meet someone who says you'll never be a real woman because of your chromosomes? it's about a reality that people come in infinite types, it's not about external standards which many will never meet because of economic (mainly as pointed out by others in this thread) and also could be the socio-political situation someone is in. Then there's also some who would never want too have surgery as they are happy. All are women, what started your journey is a core, no-one is more woman than any other.
Applying standards, even "I don't apply standards" is a standard, when it's all completely personal what we each want and what we are happy with between our legs, I agree I have the something which is completely wrong there but it's a personal thing I need to correct, others wont disagree they'll be happy with how they are in that regard.
Let's just stick to what the WPATH document has to say and our responses to that, pretty please? Because if this is just going to turn into another who's-a-real-woman thread, then really, what's the point.
WPATH doesn't get into that, it's there to support people who are living with gender dysphoria, in its manifold manifestations.
Thanks for the thread... I'll read through the Soc7, and post any thoughts.
Hugs,
Jenny
Quote from: Lexia on September 27, 2011, 03:09:19 AM
Helena what will you say when you meet someone who says you'll never be a real woman because of your chromosomes?
well they'd be wrong...being a woman is actually a social thing...being female is based on chromosomes. And just for arguments sake what if I was an XX male, they'd be doubly wrong then. Besides this isn't me saying that you, personally, have to have surgery to call yourself a woman, but me saying quite honestly that I will not truly feel like one while I have that thing between my legs. And as I stated the revisions change sweet FA for people in my position yet I feel really do risk turning being transgendered into a body modification fetish. Again this is merely an opinion and i wouldn't to think I could tell anyone what to do with their lives.
Possibly shouldn't have posted a response but I merely want to restate my views on the changes and to point out that they are, in fact, my views and not some gind of blanket umbrella statement.
Quote from: Tippe on September 26, 2011, 09:36:54 AMAccording to the criteria hysterectomy no longer requires psychiatric referral. With a lot of countries world wide allowing legal recognition of transmen who undergo hysterectomy yet requiring transwomen to undergo vaginoplasty this instills massive discrimination!
Hysterectomy is not compatible to Vaginoplasty.
Quote from: missF on September 26, 2011, 01:01:32 PM
I guess what was meant was mastectomy and not BA? Never heard about referral for BA.
Nope, version seven requires a referral for BA! (version six did too), but of course many doctors don't follow SoC here :)
"Breast augmentation (implants/lipofilling) in MtF patients:
1. Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria;
2. Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment;
3. Age of majority in a given country (if younger, follow the SOC for children and adolescents);
4. If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably well
controlled.
Although not an explicit criterion, it is recommended that MtF patients undergo feminizing hormone
therapy (minimum 12 months) prior to breast augmentation surgery. The purpose is to maximize
breast growth in order to obtain better surgical (aesthetic) results." (p. 105)
Quote from: Tippe on September 27, 2011, 08:39:18 AM
Nope, version seven requires a referral for BA! (version six did too), but of course many doctors don't follow SoC here :)
"Breast augmentation (implants/lipofilling) in MtF patients:
1. Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria;
2. Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment;
3. Age of majority in a given country (if younger, follow the SOC for children and adolescents);
4. If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably well
controlled.
Although not an explicit criterion, it is recommended that MtF patients undergo feminizing hormone
therapy (minimum 12 months) prior to breast augmentation surgery. The purpose is to maximize
breast growth in order to obtain better surgical (aesthetic) results." (p. 105)
Wow. Living and learning... I know plenty of people who had BA and no one never said anything about it. I guess since most of them go after being more than 1 year on hormones, so the "persistent, well documented gender dysphoria" is so obvious that the surgeons won't care at all (specially cause quite often it's done together with FFS or SRS).
Quote from: Emily Ray on September 26, 2011, 04:21:58 PM
Under the old variation a person needed to have their name changed before the clock started counting for RLE. I haven't been able to get mine changed and so I had to prove with the Social Security web site that Brandon is infact a gender neutral name. None of the qaulifications for what is RLE exist in the new SoC.
Depends on your provider. SoC 7 allows them to require a name change as well as to speak with your related ones such as your neighbor or your teacher (UK Gender Clinics have used that practice I know) although they no longer require it. SoC 7 removes barriers for those who have open minded providers and leaves a hell of a lot of power to the psych* who are not
QuoteRationale for a preoperative, 12-month experience of living in an identity-congruent gender role:
The criterion noted above for some types of genital surgeries – i.e., that patients engage in
12 continuous months of living in a gender role that is congruent with their gender identity – is
based on expert clinical consensus that this experience provides ample opportunity for patients to
experience and socially adjust in their desired gender role, before undergoing irreversible surgery.
As noted in section VII, the social aspects of changing one's gender role are usually challenging
– often more so than the physical aspects. Changing gender role can have profound personal
and social consequences, and the decision to do so should include an awareness of what the
familial, interpersonal, educational, vocational, economic, and legal challenges are likely to be, so
that people can function successfully in their gender role. Support from a qualified mental health
professional and from peers can be invaluable in ensuring a successful gender role adaptation
(Bockting, 2008).
The duration of 12 months allows for a range of different life experiences and events that may
occur throughout the year (e.g., family events, holidays, vacations, season-specific work or school
experiences). During this time, patients should present consistently, on a day-to-day basis and
across all settings of life, in their desired gender role. This includes coming out to partners, family,
friends, and community members (e.g., at school, work, other settings).
Health professionals should clearly document a patient's experience in the gender role in the
medical chart, including the start date of living full time for those who are preparing for genital
surgery. In some situations, if needed, health professionals may request verification that this
criterion has been fulfilled: They may communicate with individuals who have related to the patient
in an identity-congruent gender role, or request documentation of a legal name and/or gender
marker change, if applicable.
(page 61)
Quote from: missF on September 27, 2011, 08:52:09 AM
Wow. Living and learning... I know plenty of people who had BA and no one never said anything about it. I guess since most of them go after being more than 1 year on hormones, so the "persistent, well documented gender dysphoria" is so obvious that the surgeons won't care at all (specially cause quite often it's done together with FFS or SRS).
Actually literature such as SoC 6 recommended 1,5 years HRT to allow natural breast development prior to BA. I guess most surgeons will not require carry letters, but some do. Again the only official surgeon certified to treat trans people in Denmark do free BA's, but require prior SRS!
Quote from: Miniar on September 27, 2011, 07:19:31 AM
Hysterectomy is not compatible to Vaginoplasty.
No, they are not comparable, yet in well over 20 european countries vaginoplasty is required prior to gender recognition for transwomen while hysterectomy suffices in transmen.
Thereby the standards further the existing discrimination against women :(
Quote from: Tippe on September 27, 2011, 08:59:06 AM
Again the only official surgeon certified to treat trans people in Denmark do free BA's, but require prior SRS!
You can get free BA in Denmark? That's cool. In Finland we don't :/ I would assume public health care also covers the cost of SRS?
I can only speak for what is happening here in the US. More and more private corporations small, medium and large, fully insured or self insured are getting rid of theexclusions against transsexual care. The document that they have been using to decide what to pay for and under what circumstances to do it has been the SoC. Many HR people don't have a clue about our medical needs and know even less about the process of transition. SoC 7 discusses voice and how help with it can lead to lessdysphoria. I can see some really good policies covering speech pathology for us some day.
Huggs
Em
Quote from: Tippe on September 27, 2011, 09:02:01 AM
No, they are not comparable, yet in well over 20 european countries vaginoplasty is required prior to gender recognition for transwomen while hysterectomy suffices in transmen.
Thereby the standards further the existing discrimination against women :(
The difference is in the standard of recognition, which is douchy.... :/
If hysto suffices for trans men, orchi should suffice for trans women.
End of story!
'course, where I live, 1 year hrt is the only requirement....
Here were I live in Minnesota, Judges are willing to change birth certificates with just a noterized letter from a Dr who is treating us. I will be starting that proccess in two weeks and I am so excited :)
Quote from: missF on September 27, 2011, 09:07:50 AM
You can get free BA in Denmark? That's cool. In Finland we don't :/ I would assume public health care also covers the cost of SRS?
Yes, the 3.3% of transwomen who are approved by the GIC can get BA and SRS on public health.
Quote from: Miniar on September 27, 2011, 09:25:46 AM
The difference is in the standard of recognition, which is douchy.... :/
If hysto suffices for trans men, orchi should suffice for trans women.
End of story!
Better scrap the surgical requirements altogether.
Requiring orchi is impractical, because those who undergo vaginoplasty later in their transition will have worse results (more scars) if they do an orchi first. Some surgeons even refuse to operate on people who went through orchi.
Although a lot of human rights groups and powerful political institutions work to remove surgical requirements prior to legal recognition WPATH ought to consider the current state of a lot of countries.
That discussion is highly similar to the discussion of whether it is ethical to remove the diagnosis from DSM if it means - at some point - that transgender people face difficulty obtaining insurance coverage.
Quote from: Tippe on September 27, 2011, 10:47:20 AM
Yes, the 3.3% of transwomen who are approved by the GIC can get BA and SRS on public health.
That's quite... low rate. Why's that? I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure finnish statistics are far higher than 3.3%
Quote from: Miniar on September 27, 2011, 09:25:46 AM
The difference is in the standard of recognition, which is douchy.... :/
If hysto suffices for trans men, orchi should suffice for trans women.
End of story!
'course, where I live, 1 year hrt is the only requirement....
I would assume the differences are also related to the actual level of surgical technique - vaginoplasty is far easier to perform in transwoman than the its counterparts in transmen.
How about this: you contact a doctor, tell him/her you want (fill in the blank), arrange for payment and schedule the surgery?
If you're an adult and of sound mind, why should someone else dictate what you can and can't do so long as you're not hurting anyone else? Now, I'm not saying therapy and serious consideration should be thrown to the dogs, I feel both are something that could benefit practically anyone. But considering there are no rules and regulations for FFS or BA (both far more visually feminizing socially than GRS), why all the rules and regulations about HRT and GRS?
I think it's partly to cover the backs of the healthcare professionals against "buyer's remorse" - and also (at it's best) an expression of care, inasmuch as there are actual mental health disorders which have as their symptoms something resembling gender dysphoria. So they like to be sure you're not suffering from those before going ahead. But then it only took one visit to the psychiatrist to confirm that I wasn't showing "co-morbid" issues, so that should really get that out of the way.
I think it's also in a certain way wise to encourage people to take time (though it should still be their choice, ultimately), because most of the problems we're going to have when transitioning (however we're transitioning) are imposed upon us by the bigoted outside world. If no-one out there was bothered by the idea of transgender, it would be much more straightforward to be going through this. So perhaps there's a double-edged sword of care on the one hand, and prejudice on the other.
It's also more complicated in countries where it's possible to get treatment paid for by the state - so they have a duty of care (and of budget) to ensure they are treating people who really need the treatment.
anyway, i can't read it all, because it's too long :) i just like that the standards of care are evolving, and think it's a great thing.
Quote from: missF on September 27, 2011, 12:06:21 PM
That's quite... low rate. Why's that? I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure finnish statistics are far higher than 3.3%
It's difficult to know why, but I believe it boils down to two reasons:
1. After the first widely published gender change in the fifties Danish doctors received letters from more than thousand transgender people around the world. In stead of making the operations available per pay Denmark chose to set extremely strict criteria to save the country from huge expenses.
That means Danish surgeons have limited experience with currently only one vaginoplasty each second year or so.
In turn this means a lot of complications and international research has shown that this affects quality of life post-operatively.
2. The Danish GIC does not do any research in transgender care and only seven months ago they published a book including a description of their evaluation of transgender people. They cited only two studies; one from 1984 and one from 1998! Obviously transgender care has evolved since then.
The fear of allowing people to have operations with severe complications should not be underestimated however, since we have documented that it is six times more easy (20%) for a transman to be accepted for gender correction than it is for a transwoman. Again this only requires hysterectomy and removal of the ovaries, both of whose are carried out 6.000 times a year in Denmark.
Quote from: Julie Marie on September 27, 2011, 12:10:39 PM
If you're an adult and of sound mind, why should someone else dictate what you can and can't do so long as you're not hurting anyone else?
Basically yes, because carefull consideration is far more likely in a setting where the care seeker decides when s/he is ready to proceed. In strict evaluation schemes the care seekers focus largely on presenting themselves in a way which allow them to get their permission. This limits their room for sincere considerations drastically.
I know that things are changing here in the US because of advocacy outside of the SoC. The biggest change being lead by the HRC and its evolving standard of what counts for good coverage. I saw a report by them and for the companies who are covering HRT, mental health, and SRS is less than a cent. It is statisticaly insignificant. I don't know what influences healthcare change in Denmark or other Socialized medicical systems, but here in the US it is most effected by a need for qualified employees.
Huggs
Emily
Quote from: Gravity Girl on September 27, 2011, 06:02:17 AM
well they'd be wrong...being a woman is actually a social thing...being female is based on chromosomes.
Anyone who sets standards will find someone will set standards too, it's hard but it's a fact :/
Gender is completely personal as you've said elsewhere yourself: "If you say something is female (or woman) then it is." If someone is genuine in their expression others see that, which is a great point you make, yeah? :)
@Padma, "who is a real woman", there's no such absolute mono blanket definition which is exactly why WPATH's strictness on requirements for HRT etc are being broken down over time (from reading reactions.)
I met my psychiatrist for the first time yesterday and he said to me at the end: "I'm going to be person who gives you a kick you up the arse. There's 7 year olds walking around in dresses. You should have transitioned when you were 18. I'll see you in 3 months and I expect progress. Write down all the things you want by then. The real tragedy is not people like you, it's those who have gone out and are not accepted." I have no idea if I will be accepted it's a scary thing, but to have a psychiatrist willing me on is probably the best feeling, I really hope the new WPATH is in this spirit, I really should read it rather then just posts over all the various forums haha :)
Quote from: Tippe on September 27, 2011, 08:54:51 AM
In some situations, if needed, health professionals may request verification that this
criterion has been fulfilled: They may communicate with individuals who have related to the patient
in an identity-congruent gender role, or request documentation of a legal name and/or gender
marker change, if applicable.
THIS is that of which I am speaking!
:D
It's not like I've got ANY money, but if that should change - I've been full time for almost two years now and i don't want the clock to re-set.
By full time, does that include: changing name, changing gender ID markers, HRT, working as target gender? That's what they are looking for.
Quote from: Tippe on September 27, 2011, 09:02:01 AM
No, they are not comparable, yet in well over 20 european countries vaginoplasty is required prior to gender recognition for transwomen while hysterectomy suffices in transmen.
Thereby the standards further the existing discrimination against women :(
Is the UK one of those 20 countries? I know, yes it is :/ I want that gender recognition before having a vaginoplasty as I may wait for a non-NHS procedure (still researching what to do in that regard). Too deny gender recognition based on a sex organ?, and I'd challenge what they claim to be there because it may look like a duck but if it meows it sure aint what it seems (appologies for being slightly vulgar :) )
Quote from: Lexia on September 28, 2011, 04:42:52 PM
@Padma, "who is a real woman", there's no such absolute mono blanket definition which is exactly why WPATH's strictness on requirements for HRT etc are being broken down over time (from reading reactions.)
I was referring to the occasional :) tendency for people on this site to assert absolute definitions one way or another about this. There have been a lot of topics lately that have done this irresolvable discussion to death, and got quite messy in the process. I was just hoping we could avoid that cycle in this topic and stick to discussing what the new WPATH actually says.
I really should read it rather then just posts over all the various forums look like I'm out of it.
FIFY
a "real woman" is a shining blinding star of hyperfemininity and self assured of it at the same time. they are the highest intensity of woman :)
Oh well, that's me screwed then ::). Femininity is on my list of "optional" attributes for a woman :).
Quote from: Miniar on September 27, 2011, 09:25:46 AM
The difference is in the standard of recognition, which is douchy.... :/
If hysto suffices for trans men, orchi should suffice for trans women.
End of story!
'course, where I live, 1 year hrt is the only requirement....
Depends on the location.. The state that issued my BC only requires a letter that states I've had 'irreversible genital surgery', and an orchie meets that requirement..
a "real woman" is a shining blinding star of hyperfemininity and self assured of it at the same time. they are the highest intensity of woman
And yet, no matter how real, how shinning, how blinding, how hyperfem - there is some guy or girl somewhere who is tried of their ->-bleeped-<-.
Quote from: tekla on September 28, 2011, 06:12:46 PM
By full time, does that include: changing name, changing gender ID markers, HRT, working as target gender? That's what they are looking for.
Not changing names, yet, no, but otherwise working and so forth. It seems to me if they are worried you can't handle the negatives, presenting yourself as female full time while still being burdened with the male name is a good way to experience most of those.
Some things are sensitive to your ability to pay just like the surgery is
Quote from: tekla on September 28, 2011, 09:40:09 PM
a "real woman" is a shining blinding star of hyperfemininity and self assured of it at the same time. they are the highest intensity of woman
And yet, no matter how real, how shinning, how blinding, how hyperfem - there is some guy or girl somewhere who is tried of their ->-bleeped-<-.
yeah, like me, because conformity is a moderation type of thing. i am pretty minimal with conformity. i conform just enough so that i can still be likeable and nonoffensive to some people. too little makes you outlawed and isolated, too much makes you too overdone, and once again isolated.
It's a shame the U.K NHS clinics don't want to comply with the SOC!
Quote from: Lexia on September 28, 2011, 06:20:50 PM
Is the UK one of those 20 countries? I know, yes it is :/ I want that gender recognition before having a vaginoplasty as I may wait for a non-NHS procedure (still researching what to do in that regard). Too deny gender recognition based on a sex organ?, and I'd challenge what they claim to be there because it may look like a duck but if it meows it sure aint what it seems (appologies for being slightly vulgar :) )
Fortunately you can get a Gender Recognition Certificate in the UK without hormones or surgery. GIRES has some explanations about the details.
As for the countries requiring surgery the number is 29 in Europe alone!
Quote from: Padma on September 28, 2011, 06:23:27 PM
I was referring to the occasional :) tendency for people on this site to assert absolute definitions one way or another about this. There have been a lot of topics lately that have done this irresolvable discussion to death, and got quite messy in the process. I was just hoping we could avoid that cycle in this topic and stick to discussing what the new WPATH actually says.
when absolute definitions meet, guaranteed carnage haha :(
Quote from: tekla on September 28, 2011, 09:40:09 PM
a "real woman" is a shining blinding star of hyperfemininity and self assured of it at the same time. they are the highest intensity of woman
And yet, no matter how real, how shinning, how blinding, how hyperfem - there is some guy or girl somewhere who is tried of their ->-bleeped-<-.
Haha I love this.
Quote from: Tippe on September 29, 2011, 09:23:26 AM
Fortunately you can get a Gender Recognition Certificate in the UK without hormones or surgery. GIRES has some explanations about the details.
As for the countries requiring surgery the number is 29 in Europe alone!
Thank you Tippe, you made my day :D
Haha I love this.
Where I work it's called the 'super model rule.'
Quote from: Lexia on September 29, 2011, 11:12:45 AM
Thank you Tippe, you made my day :D
My pleasure :)
Here is the link on how to obtain it:
http://www.gires.org.uk/grpex.php (http://www.gires.org.uk/grpex.php)