i was just thinking about this, because their seems to be alot of people who say this with gay people or transgender. they claim they "disagree with our lifestyle, but tolerate it." those types of people then go into playing victim when it gets them into trouble. the thing i don't understand is, the concept of disagreeing with something you don't oppose. to disagree with something means to act as an opposing force. why go in saying "i disagree with your transition. i disagree with your homosexuality." just saying you don't agree implies you don't think what they are doing is right. it does nothing positive, and it keeps the controversy and prejudice going. i'm not saying they should "agree" with it, but why can't they just stay in the indifferent lane?
I think what they're trying to say is: "I wish you would stop being gay / trans, but I'm not going to do anything to MAKE you stop, and I'm not going to even bother arguing with you about it, since I suspect you'd win anyway, since my views are probably based on ingrained cultural biases and/or religion, which never withstands the scrutiny of logic anyway. Thus, I'm just going to say I 'tolerate' you, as if I have some other valid choice and I'm being the better person or something."
I was about to touch on two items: that unless these people want to commit a crime, they mostly have to "tolerate" us; and that their way of presenting things makes it look like they're taking a moral high ground.
But Leek did it so much more eloquently...
Unfortunately one part of transitioning is taking the damage. I've met people who love me, but people who know and say mean things. Some people won't keep their opinions quiet. But they have a right to have them...as long as they aren't advocating violence towards us. Not everyone is gonna agree with what you are or what you're doing...It's the reality of the situation.
When I was a gay boy, people would say unbelivable offensive things to me. I ignored them and went on with my day. Now, offensive things are rare... But I've had people on my fb say horrible things. I had some guy tell me I was a, "beautiful classy babe" today then go off about me being a Catholic who worships the Virgin Mary. I was offended, but I heard him out. I didn't allude to being a ts either...as he's known me for a year.
I find it very patronising to be 'tolerated". It reminds me of my first girlfriend, who became a born-again Christian and spent a year at bible "school" (it was really more of an indoctrination factory, as she later realised). We met up just after she left there when I'd just come out as "gay" (I thought that's what I was, at the time) and had become a Buddhist. She told me that meditation "lets in the devil" and as for being gay, that she felt "pity" for me! I'm glad to say she's moved on since then.
Anyway, the 'I don't agree with your lifestyle" is also like when people say "I don't understand why you'd what to..." - I always point out that the reason they don't understand is that they haven't asked me to explain yet, but that what they *really* mean is "I don't approve." I think people are entitled to their opinion, but not that they're entitled to force it on anyone else unbidden, as if their opinion is somehow really important and overrides social politeness.
I think it is a very patronising statement and a foolish one. Do you reply that you disagree with their lifestyle but will tolerate it?
Tolerate means (dictionary definition) to allow something without protesting or interference. Is it up to another person to ALLOW me to live my life. I think not. If the reply is that they didn't understand the meaning of their statement; well that is more foolish and ignorant.
Cindy
A while back, Jen wrote this in a post and it really stuck with me.
"I need you to go back to living a miserable existence. I want you to lose the will to live. If it kills you, well sorry, but you make me uncomfortable and I can't abide it."
Quote from: Leek on October 03, 2011, 07:09:33 PM
I think what they're trying to say is: "I wish you would stop being gay / trans, but I'm not going to do anything to MAKE you stop, and I'm not going to even bother arguing with you about it, since I suspect you'd win anyway, since my views are probably based on ingrained cultural biases and/or religion, which never withstands the scrutiny of logic anyway. Thus, I'm just going to say I 'tolerate' you, as if I have some other valid choice and I'm being the better person or something."
that makes sense. the way i see it, disagreement is an opposing force, and it doesn't matter how dignified they try to be about it. in this case, there is nothing to be agreed or disagreed, it just is what it is. so being in a "disagreement party" is only hurtful.
Quote from: Cindy James on October 04, 2011, 02:47:45 AM
I think it is a very patronising statement and a foolish one. Do you reply that you disagree with their lifestyle but will tolerate it?
Tolerate means (dictionary definition) to allow something without protesting or interference. Is it up to another person to ALLOW me to live my life. I think not. If the reply is that they didn't understand the meaning of their statement; well that is more foolish and ignorant.
Cindy
that's exactly it. i could tell them to stop being devaut christians, stop being caucasian, stop being cisgendered. those are basically equivalent values of what they said to me/others in the first place.
Full Moon,
I had a nurse at a surgeon's office tell me she had no problem with people "like me". She then sent my home a quote for a breast augmentation when I had visited surgeon for a price quote on liposuction.
I have natural 40C breasts. I guess people "like me" need 40DD according to her.
Quote from: wendy on October 04, 2011, 06:43:21 PM
Full Moon,
I had a nurse at a surgeon's office tell me she had no problem with people "like me". She then sent my home a quote for a breast augmentation when I had visited surgeon for a price quote on liposuction.
I have natural 40C breasts. I guess people "like me" need 40DD according to her.
she sounds shallow. 40C breasts is already bigger than what i have. mine are b, but i pass just fine. she must think you need to compensate for being transsexual with big breasts, which is ridiculous.
Well I mean , Some people might get insulted about it , but for me how I see it is that they don't agree just because they think that if they agree that means they would do it
well most people don't know that no ones agreement is necessary to make your own place your own world and be happy.
so put it that way :) :-*
Quote from: Leek on October 03, 2011, 07:09:33 PM
I think what they're trying to say is: "I wish you would stop being gay / trans, but I'm not going to do anything to MAKE you stop, and I'm not going to even bother arguing with you about it, since I suspect you'd win anyway, since my views are probably based on ingrained cultural biases and/or religion, which never withstands the scrutiny of logic anyway. Thus, I'm just going to say I 'tolerate' you, as if I have some other valid choice and I'm being the better person or something."
Values are subjective until you pierce anothers worldview and that person actively denies the logic, until then their values will be just as valid. Of course when someone denies discussion their worldview has been pierced.... But for anyone to think discussion is not absolutely necessary is to assume someone knows they are ignorant, which is an ignorance in itself. This ties in with the fact that we are all unenlightened, and that enlightenment is not a complete revelation but like lights in the darkness. We all at the edges of our thoughts and imagination live ideas never subjected to logic, how valid are they? Completely for we do not know any better, until someone or something shows the ignorance of them. At some point people learn to fly and the somethings take precedence, but the someone is always there.
my mom is a person who disagrees with the gay/trans lifestyle. she can tolerate others being/living like that, but she told me straight out that she'd have trouble accepting any of those tendencies in one of her own children. made me decide against coming out to her as transgender, and hope that my youngest brother turns out gay. i've a feeling it would be easier on her if the rebel acts rebellious than if her sweet perfect oldest daughter suddenly turns into an unrecognizable monster with outrageous and incomprehensible ideas about herself
My Mom told me, "I wonder how you would have looked as a man" and I said, "I was a man...just a gay one" and she said, "Not the same"
I tried to be straight, but that failed. The girls always wanted to go shopping with me and I hid my gay life from her. Part of the reason I never had any relationships blossom is because my b/f's wanted to meet her and I was like, "No bro"
Ironically, my Mom is a butch lez who did the exact same thing my Grandma did to her.
There is a danger in not embracing who you are no matter the outcome or consequences.
it is sign of hypocrisy of "our" society
good example if meat, most people want to eat it, but don't want even think about how it is prepared and refuse killing animals, but still eat it and lot of them even don't want to know that in their burger is dead cute furry animal ::) (I have no moral problem with killing my meal)
It's not a lifestyle. It's not a choice. We are. Just like they are. It's annoying and offensive. I ignore it for the most part because I prefer to be in my happy place. I am not out as trans except to family friends and coworkers who seem to accept me. My mother still forwards religious spam/crap that sometimes has digs against 'alternative lifestyles'. I just hit the delete button.
Someday I hope that people just get that we are what we are, because we are, just like they are who they are because they are.
Let us be.
Jay
"I don't hold it against ya for what ya done."
That's the best my mother can do. If I want her in my life, I have to accept that.
If I don't want her in my life, I need to accept that, too.
My "lifestyle choice" is more about which people I choose to keep in it.
I have the same freedom to disagree (disapprove) that they do.
What some of them seem to have that I don't is a kind of ignorance that allows them to enjoy it more.
Humans are pretty rough on each other. I think Leek said it best.
I disagree with all of you. I would rather know where a person stands than just assume. By saying they disagree but won't interfere, they have done just that. I know not to look to them for sympathy or advice but also know they will not intentionally do harm.
The knowing being...ify in any situation.
Quote from: Leek on October 03, 2011, 07:09:33 PM
I think what they're trying to say is: "I wish you would stop being gay / trans, but I'm not going to do anything to MAKE you stop, and I'm not going to even bother arguing with you about it, since I suspect you'd win anyway, since my views are probably based on ingrained cultural biases and/or religion, which never withstands the scrutiny of logic anyway. Thus, I'm just going to say I 'tolerate' you, as if I have some other valid choice and I'm being the better person or something."
Wow! Couldn't of said it better myself! But I believe the following is the shorter more true version of this.
Quote from: JessicaH on October 04, 2011, 08:38:37 AM
"I need you to go back to living a miserable existence. I want you to lose the will to live. If it kills you, well sorry, but you make me uncomfortable and I can't abide it."
either way people are never going to understand it, there not the ones living it!
My advice is not to talk about transition or being transsexual with certain people. I consider transition and my sexuality a very personal thing...Unless it's your family who said this.
Jesus Christ the arrogance!
It's not their place to disagree.. but their sense of relative 'normality' makes them think they have the right to.
I either ignore those folks or tell it to them like it is.. and if someone starts with the keyword 'lifestyle' they'd have lost me altogether.
I'm inclined to reply that I will tolerate their heterosexual lifestyle. As long as they don't flaunt it publicly, and offend me, that's ok, and when did they choose a straight sexuality anyway?.