First off, apologies for redundancy. I know this kind of thing has been probably posted a million times, but I'm just so confused right now, I've gotta bitch.
I've been woman, girl, lady, and multiple times this week and I can't fathom why.
The first time, I get it. The guy has known me for about 6 years. I went into his Subway like twice a week, for two years, back when I was still trying to be mega-slutty-girly. Even with weight gain/loss, no makeup, and facial scruff, my face is pretty recognizable. On the upside, everyone else in there looked completely lost when he kept calling me "she".
The second time, I can sort of get. My boyfriend and I were doing laundry up the street, went into the 24/7 convenience store adjoined to it, and were chatting with the clerk guy while he swept. He came past me and jokingly said "Damn, woman, outta my way!" and I was just too confused to even say anything. This time around, I'm wearing a massive trench coat and those huge, gothy platform boots. I'm making a point of talking more, because my voice is so deep. Ben goes out of his way to call me boy, brah, bro, boyo, man, and anything else under the sun and still...eugh.
The one I really don't get happened earlier, though. I managed to find a pair of guys' pants that actually fit me right yesterday, and wore those out today with Julie. Those jeans, big baggy hoodie, and a beanie. I asked her and my mom both (who can be both loving and brutally honest at the same time) and they both said I looked like a guy. Unquestionably. I felt confident with that, and went out pretty happily. Didn't get a single stare using the bathrooms all day, had a kid stop me and ask "hey man, what time is it" and figured that I was good to go.
Cabbie we got on the way home, however, called us "ladies". Twice, so I'm sure I didn't just mishear him.
So...I don't get it. I figured if nothing else, my goddamn voice-which actually caused untold problems when I was still trying to be a girl-would help "settle" things. I just...agh. At this point, it doesn't even piss me off half the time, it just completely confuses me. I can't decide if it's just one of those "Well, I do have longer hair" kind of situations, or if I'm seriously doing something wrong. It's not even like a 50/50 split! Its just seemingly sporadic!
Agh. So confused, so agitated, and so not looking forward to going out again tomorrow.
I never know for sure when I'm passing, but I know that some days, I get called "sir" and treated like a guy 99 percent of the time, but called "ma'am" or referred to as a "lady" by one or two people, and I just don't get it. How are they judging this stuff?
So yeah. No clue. Wish I could help you.
It's okay man, they're just strangers. It doesn't matter as long as you know who you are =) Sorry, this is all I have to say....I haven't even started transitioning or whatever yet so I'm not much help =.=
If it makes you feel better, I have a friend (who's a girl) who gets mistaken for a guy all the time because of her looks/what she wears. It's not just you...straight people get mistaken too.
QuoteIt's not just you...straight people get mistaken too.
I try to keep that in mind as much as possible. I had two biomale friends a few years back that constantly got odd looks and called girls, and one of them had hairy-ass sideburns.
Good luck =) Most people mean no harm; it's an innocent mistake that just happens to mean a lot to people like us.
I'm off to sleep now. Peace.
As tough as this kind of thing is on guys in our situation, it really could just be something as simple as your hair causing them to misgender you, and that's something that happens to a lot of cis-guys. My friend at work for example is very into death metal, and his hair is really long. Everything about him is as masculine as could be except the long hair (which I still think is manly as hell, but you get what I'm saying :P) and he still gets 'she'd all the time, scruffy chin, deep voice and all.
Does he ever get pissed, or is he just used to it? It was split with the two guys I know, the one would get all cranky, and the other would actually roll it it. Which was pretty awesome and funny at times.
I use to correct them and than ask just why they thought I was female. What's wrong with asking? They normally were taken back but gave me valid answers. My skin, my voice, my kids, my clothing that sort of thing was normally the answer.
You know, I decided I deserve to be seen as who I know I am. So I made a commitment to always correct everyone who got it wrong. A few times I did it in horribly awkward situations. For example, Potbelly during a very busy lunchtime. I literally stopped the line to declare that I was male to basically the entire store.
Every time I did that my self esteem went higher. Every time it was a little bit easier to look someone in the eye. The more my confidence rose, the more I passed. Posture is huge thing people seem to get wrong. Guys walk up and look people directly in the eye. FTM's who are trying to pass, hunch down into their hoody as if they are afraid. Don't be afraid. Be a guy and take on the world.
Haha I agree with Squirrel about the asking thing. You should just tell them you're male and ask why they thought otherwise.
Also I've found that being around females gets you read as female more often. You'd think it'd have the opposite effect by showing the contrast between your masculinity/her femininity but it doesn't. Hanging around guys in my experience had me passing 100% pre-T but around females it was a lot less.
Quote from: Gifted Universal on October 06, 2011, 02:08:51 PM
Haha I agree with Squirrel about the asking thing. You should just tell them you're male and ask why they thought otherwise.
Also I've found that being around females gets you read as female more often. You'd think it'd have the opposite effect by showing the contrast between your masculinity/her femininity but it doesn't. Hanging around guys in my experience had me passing 100% pre-T but around females it was a lot less.
You know what, that very well may be it, because that's I think three times now we've been in a cab and been addressed as "ladies". That
is really odd, though.
Squirrel, honestly, I have no idea what's so wrong with asking. I just...can't do it. I guess I'm afraid my frustration will come out, and they'll know something's up. And I'm just awful at non-violent/non-angry confrontations. If someone's an outright ->-bleeped-<- about it, or anything else, I've got no problem with it, but when its something that's entirely not cruel or anything (which it never has been, they've always been polite or just neutral about it) I almost feel like I'm being a dick or something. I know it's not unusual, but goddamn it still bothers me and makes me feel like a jackass. Maybe I'll talk to my boyfriend about it, see if he can't help me get the guts to start doing it more.
The stupid part is the one time we questioned the guy (Ben did it, because I'm a wuss) it was exactly what Squirrel said. The guy wasn't rude, he was apologetic if anything.
My grandma shes guys with long hair.
Quote from: N.Chaos on October 06, 2011, 03:21:47 PM
You know what, that very well may be it, because that's I think three times now we've been in a cab and been addressed as "ladies". That is really odd, though.
Squirrel, honestly, I have no idea what's so wrong with asking. I just...can't do it. I guess I'm afraid my frustration will come out, and they'll know something's up. And I'm just awful at non-violent/non-angry confrontations. If someone's an outright ->-bleeped-<- about it, or anything else, I've got no problem with it, but when its something that's entirely not cruel or anything (which it never has been, they've always been polite or just neutral about it) I almost feel like I'm being a dick or something. I know it's not unusual, but goddamn it still bothers me and makes me feel like a jackass. Maybe I'll talk to my boyfriend about it, see if he can't help me get the guts to start doing it more.
The stupid part is the one time we questioned the guy (Ben did it, because I'm a wuss) it was exactly what Squirrel said. The guy wasn't rude, he was apologetic if anything.
I can't bring myself to actually ask people either. But I do think that people see any sort of longer length of hair or a different kind of hair cut and just think female. I don't, but it seems I'm not in the majority of anything really! I'm actually growing my hair out to what it used to be because I can not stand short hair. I try it every now and then just to remind myself how much I hate it I think! Also, I notice in certain scenarios I get more shes/hers. Usually any time I'm out and about, running errands, doing grocery shopping, that sort of thing. Since I look early 20s at best as male people probably assume female since I'm engaged in more "adult", "responsible" activities and a 20 something male would probably be buying a six pack of beer and chips at the store (I'm generalizing - but you know what I mean). However, plop me in the middle of a rock concert and no one refers to me as female lol. Even if I am with female friends. Last one I went to where I met up with one of my friends and she had brought along another friend who'd never met me the other friend saw me as male before my friend even introduced me. Also if I'm just hanging out some place like drinking coffee or eating in a restaurant by myself I seem to get more people referring to me as male. Shopping though, forget it - no matter what I do it seems I'm female to everyone!
Last thing one of my other friends told me is that when people aren't certain, then seem to error on the side of female because they think it's more offensive to call a women a man than the other way around. I'd never thought of it like that.
Yeah it does seem to happen with cismales with long or longer hair or young-looking ones.
I went to college with a guy who had perfectly straight, shiny, long blond hair and usually wore bright skater clothes. He also was a bit larger with hips almost. He got she'd all the time and whenever he was out walking with his girlfriend people would shout out to them from their cars calling them dykes and lesbians or whistling at them. I've even mistaken him for a woman from behind. His girlfriend would get mad and make him not shave his beard but it still happened even when he had it.
I think it was mostly because his hair was so nice and conditioned and well... most men who grow their hair out seem to leave it disgusting, frizzy and greasy, at least around here anyway. It's just small things like that that get people to instantly gender someone.
^ That's actually a lot like my boyfriend, at least the 'from behind' bit? He's got girlier hips and legs than most of the girls I've known.
I've actually noticed that other guys read me as male more often than women. I don't quite get it really...
No offense, but to me you look rather like a butch girl in your avatar pic. How old is it?
It's actually about...er...four months old? From right before I came out.
This one's a little more recent.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc7%2F301617_281774881849205_100000500876700_1298451_4027482_n.jpg&hash=a807c0554ab50fdbc6fa32813d91c920782bfe9e)
Or were you referring to the op?
Sorry, yes, I was referring to the OP. But maybe you should update your avatar, Prussia! You look very different now.
I'll probably update when I get another haircut. I only kept it as long as I did for a cosplay this past weekend! xD
Quote from: Arch on October 07, 2011, 09:17:02 PM
No offense, but to me you look rather like a butch girl in your avatar pic. How old is it?
Pretty recent, honestly. And here I thought the soul patch was helping.
No offense taken, I'm just pissed at myself for bitching and moaning about all this, and still being unwilling to compromise my personal preferences and all that useless bull->-bleeped-<-.
Quote from: N.Chaos on October 09, 2011, 11:19:34 PM
Pretty recent, honestly. And here I thought the soul patch was helping.
No offense taken, I'm just pissed at myself for bitching and moaning about all this, and still being unwilling to compromise my personal preferences and all that useless bull->-bleeped-<-.
Maybe the soul patch IS helping...the avatar is a pretty small pic.
In my experience, being misread can take a steady toll on a person. No wonder you're frustrated. But people tend to misread those of us who are unwilling to part with characteristics or features that are traditionally seen as feminine--at least when we're fairly early in transition. I figure that if being yourself puts you in the "androgynous zone," then you have decided that it's worth being misread sometimes. But that won't last forever. Give it time.
Yeah, it absolutely takes a toll. I've noticed that instead of going out and trying to be prepared for it, I go out automatically pissed and ready to jump just about everyone who looks at me.
What bugs me so damn much about it is for years, before I came out, I had people question my gender. Constantly, at certain points in my life. And now, its like everything's gone all backwards or something, and its just so frustrating.
It's got to be ur hair.. Lots of metal or goth bio guys that have long black hair have the same issue.. So if u want to pass better I recommend u cut ur hair, or this cud be an issue u will always have unfortuantly...
Once my voice dropped I never get called "she or lady" and I hang out with loads of women and honestly 9 times out of 10 I'm the only dude..
I'm adamant it's ur long hair!
Quote from: N.Chaos on October 10, 2011, 03:14:12 AMWhat bugs me so damn much about it is for years, before I came out, I had people question my gender. Constantly, at certain points in my life. And now, its like everything's gone all backwards or something, and its just so frustrating.
That is weird. But I'm wondering if other things have changed. Under what circumstances did people see you as male in the past? All the time, or just in certain situations? In what contexts? Have you changed your style since then? Has your confidence level changed? Are you just noticing misreads more than you noticed "misreads" before?
People's "mistakes" way back when might have been of a particular kind. Two examples. In the women's restroom (or in women's circles), a lot of women are ultra-conservative and tend to automatically question androgynous people, but their confusion might only last for a moment. Another example is sheer meanness, of the "What are you?" variety.
I don't know what to tell you except to keep your chin up and keep a-goin'.
I actually dress a lot more normally then I did then. I wore a hell of a lot more makeup, my hair was longer, I ran around with huge platform boots and fishnet and all that ubergoth ->-bleeped-<-. One of the big things has always been my voice, I almost had security called on me once back in highschool for using the girls' bathroom because of it. A lot of the time it was in pictures as well, quite a few people thought I was a guy online. The douchey "what are you" comments, I don't know how much stock I put in them, but I had a really sweet lady ask me politely if I was a boy or a girl. It was weird, but made me really happy at the same time.
I'm not sure if this counts, but quite a few times I'd catch girls doing a double-take at me in one of the Asian food stores I shopped at a lot. They'd start to check me out, and then stop like "Wait a second..."
Its all odd. When I'm not in that angsty mode I was in the other night, I can see the comedy in it. I pass in bathrooms so well, they don't terrify me anymore. I've bumped into guys on the way out, we've both mutually mumbled apologies, and nobody looked at me twice. At the same time, in the back of a cab when I'm running my mouth, the guy calls me a lady. Cashing out at the post office a while ago, even paying with a bank card bearing THAT name, both ladies called me "sir" and "mister", a few weeks later when I've let my stubbles grow out noticeably, the guy at the laundramatt things I'm a girl. There really seems to be no rhyme or reason to it, so I think I just need to either deal with it, or grow the balls to correct these clueless folks.
Quote from: N.Chaos on October 10, 2011, 08:50:14 PM
There really seems to be no rhyme or reason to it, so I think I just need to either deal with it, or grow the balls to correct these clueless folks.
:laugh:
I didn't start consistently correcting people I knew until I was "passing" consistently with strangers. Looks like you're in a rather different situation. Correct away. Might make you feel more in control, and lots of people will fall all over themselves in apologies.
Your situation does sound odd. Perhaps you're letting out parts of yourself that you kept hidden before!
Well, I'm definitely gonna have to have a vent/advice stealing thing with Ben. Even though he's not in the same situation, he's amazing at basically making me answer my own questions, and hearing me out like a boss.
That could be it, though I try to keep all my "omg cooking, holy ->-bleeped-<- BEADS I WANNA MAKE STUFF" limited to the interbutts and home. My friends/family know I'm just flaming as all hell.