Okay, story time.
My older brother is getting married (yay, right?). The wedding isn't going to be until NEXT November, which is all good and well. Now, just a while ago, he calls my mom and asks her if I would want to serve in the wedding. (I said yes, I mean, he's my brother.)
Now, this is where the fun begins.
He then proceeds to ask my mom if it would even be a good idea for me to serve in the wedding, because he honestly believes that me being trans would cause problems with the people there and that the priest would refuse to do the ceremony or something.
Now, after my mother told him "politely" that my personal life is not ANYONE'S business and that no one at the wedding would EVER know anything except that I'm his little brother, he, quite seriously, asked her if there would be any way to just get me to wear a dress since I'm "still a girl".
I am not happy, but at the same time, I know that there is no point in me saying anything to him because he's so bloody stubborn and self-centered that it would go in one ear and out the other.
So, I'm not sure if I should try to talk to him anyway, or just let it be since by that time, he will have (hopefully) forgotten about it and realized that I am now, and always will be, a man, and more importantly, his brother.
Don't back down, don't compromise. Tell them if they want you to be in the wedding you will do it as the man you are or not at all. When you tell them you'll do it as a woman or something they will think your identity as a man is not a thing you are certain of.
you need to be ferm in your male identity i would put a pin in it for a while and transition when it gets closer to the wedding youre brother may have changed his mind.
Leave it alone. He's your brother, he should love and respect you for you, regardless of what you "still are" or "still aren't". If he wants you to wear a dress, fine. Tell him to suck it, and wear a tux to that thing anyway. If he refuses to let you be in the wedding, then fine. You can still be AT the wedding. Still be there for him, have a great time, and enjoy his company, he's your brother, and you should do for him what he won't do for you. There's no use in ignoring him, or being rude to him just because he feels a certain way. Regardless of how rude he was to you. Which was completely, btw.
You be you. And like someone else said; don't back down, don't compromise.
You could tell him "I'll wear a dress if you will too..." :). And when he gets all insulted, point out to him that he's now feeling just the way you do about it.
The fact that the wedding isn't for a year from now is plenty of time for him to come around. Don't be an ass about it to him tho cause that won't fix anything. Be firm in the fact that you are a man same as him and he will come around. If not than wear a nice suit and sit with your mom at the wedding anyways.
8)
Quote from: AbracaDebra on October 12, 2011, 03:29:32 AM
I understand what you are saying....who couldn't.
My only thought (me being what I am) would be to do something for his BIG DAY, and that may be a sacrifice for somebody you love. It's a matter of putting somebody and something special, just for once, over your own needs. Are you like that?
Debbie :)
Debbie-
All I can say right now is u really annoyed me! In fact ur comment has made my piss boil. That's all I'll say, also maybe u shud think about giving out advice that makes someone change who they are just to make others happy. Why shud someone need to repress themselves for ANYONE?
And my advice Digital is well basically what Wesley said.. Hopefully Debbie doesn't make u feel the urge to repress Urself, for I'm sure uve done enough of that thru ur life already..
P.S.
I was put in the same sorta situation for a wedding.. Got all the guilt trips on what I shud and shudnt wear. But I did do what they wanted and it made me feel degraded throughout the whole wedding. Not one of my fondest memories.
So be stronger then I was and feel proud of Urself in a handsome tux. When u look back u won't share the same regret I have when I look back.
Quote from: Padma on October 12, 2011, 03:37:09 AM
You could tell him "I'll wear a dress if you will too..." :). And when he gets all insulted, point out to him that he's now feeling just the way you do about it.
This made me laugh so hard I almost fell out of my chair. Very good advice, too! ;D I would totally do this!
My gf looked over at me like, 'You doofus, it can't be THAT funny.' Which made me laugh harder, of course. :P
Monster I agree but wasn't going to call her on the stupid advice but you did and I agree. Why would anyone come in here and tell a man to wear a dress to make someone else happy ??? family or not. Again the wedding is over a year from now no need to stress just yet. I really think your brother will come around soon enough and have you in it in a tux. Just chill out and let him come around.
Quote from: R.A.A on October 12, 2011, 12:24:08 AM
Leave it alone. He's your brother, he should love and respect you for you, regardless of what you "still are" or "still aren't". If he wants you to wear a dress, fine. Tell him to suck it, and wear a tux to that thing anyway. If he refuses to let you be in the wedding, then fine. You can still be AT the wedding. Still be there for him, have a great time, and enjoy his company, he's your brother, and you should do for him what he won't do for you. There's no use in ignoring him, or being rude to him just because he feels a certain way. Regardless of how rude he was to you. Which was completely, btw.
You be you. And like someone else said; don't back down, don't compromise.
I agree with this and he sounds just like my brother. My brother would never compromise on anything and it has cost him in ways. However... we both have stubborn streaks and I fought back against his arrogance on the me being a women issue. That the doctors were not lying to me etc and I was not polite about it. Now? Because he was so stubborn and mean about it with returning in kind we do not speak. It saddens me because he is leaving the country and moving to another but I had to find out through third parties.
Yes, stand up for yourself but do it in the right ways or you will just lose family as I have lost many of mine. Then they never will change because you are not there to help them learn.
Quote from: Monster on October 12, 2011, 02:24:59 PM
8)
Debbie-
All I can say right now is u really annoyed me! In fact ur comment has made my piss boil. That's all I'll say, also maybe u shud think about giving out advice that makes someone change who they are just to make others happy. Why shud someone need to repress themselves for ANYONE?
And my advice Digital is well basically what Wesley said.. Hopefully Debbie doesn't make u feel the urge to repress Urself, for I'm sure uve done enough of that thru ur life already..
There are plenty of times in life where putting others needs before your own is an outstanding quality of character and that is one of those qualities of a person that I think that is worth cultivating. That makes for better care givers, better parents, better friends ... just to be able to see something from someone else's point of view and realize it doesn't change who you are at all (and learning to discern the difference between that quality and letting people take advantage of you).
Yeah this kid's brother seems like an ass, but it's HIS special day, not his sibling's. If he's not going to be the "better man" and be considerate of his younger brother, what's so wrong about being the better man yourself and thinking of someone else's wishes. It's not like clothing changes who you are. If you think that, then you've got a lot to learn about life.
I'm kinda sick of everyone thinking they're entitled to do any damn thing they please simply because if they didn't they would be "repressing" themselves. Selfish much? Of course it is, but the "entitlement generation" thinks it's all about them, all day, every day and everyone else should bend their wishes and ideals around them.
I'm all for standing up for what you believe in, not compromising who you are and other positive qualities of being a human being. But I also believe in properly picking your battles. One day - a mere matter of hours - amongst some family members and a lot of people you'll probably not see again (and if you do, would they even recognize you) is not the end of the world.
And it sounds like the mother is supportive of the kid by politely trying to tell the older brother it's no one else's business - he has people on his side, so it doesn't seem like a completely negative family that's not supportive of his choices otherwise. Let the pissy older brother have his one damn day. Like I said, clothing does not change who you are at all. Whether the older brother is an ass or not, take pride in knowing that you are flexible enough to put someone else's wants before yours but also strong enough to not let a silly dress tear down your whole damn identity.
ETA
I just wanted to add that there were times when I was under 18 that my mother forced me into a dress and at the time I didn't like it, it made me feel "degraded" in a way - but that feeling didn't last and being under 18 I wasn't given much of a choice about it either - it was just something I had to do. Looking back on it, I only wish I could have had the viewpoint I do now on it - that wearing that dress didn't change who I was at all and it was just a few uncomfortable hours of my life. I certainly do not have "regrets" about something like that.
Obviously, what I wrote here is going to sound harsh I'm sure to a few people - but try a different perspective on it. No one can change who you are inside - only you can do that. But learning to see other viewpoints, to pick your "compromise battles" and to allow yourself the freedom to be who you are no matter what you're wearing or what situation you're in will serve you well in life.
Alright so I asked my mother her opinion as well as my own and we both agree. If you pass as male at all really then if it were me I would not wear a dress. First you'll be uncomfortable second you'll make the guests uncomfortable because they won't know how to adress you which in the end might make your brother uncomfortable.
Yes, it's your brothers day so if he doesn't want you in the wedding unless in a dress than don't be part of the wedding. Instead like someone else suggested go in a suit, be respectful, and just sit with your mom.
I do not plan on giving into his wishes and wearing a dress, no matter what he wanted. Yes, he is my brother, but that alone does not mean he has my respect. My love, yes, but not respect. He still has not earned that.
There is no way I am going to wear something I am not comfortable with. Even if it weren't a dress, but something else, if I was not comfortable with the idea of it, then I would not do it, and him insisting otherwise is just rude and inconsiderate. It may be his big day, but this is something I cannot do, not for him.
If he does not want me to serve because of this, then I won't, and I will do as suggested and sit with my mother, dressed in proper attire (of course).
As for "I'll wear one if you do." That wouldn't work because he's the kind of guy that would take me up on that just because he can.
Yeah, there's still a year before this even goes down, but he's stressing about it now which is why this came up. In the time until the actual wedding, a lot will happen that will hopefully assist him in accepting me as I am, so, right now, I'm not really worried about it. (This just irritated me more than anything else.)
If it comes up again, I will make an attempt to speak with him, and explain things a bit better, but for now, it probably is just better left alone. There is still a lot of time, and I'll see if he comes around.
Thanks a lot for all the responses, everyone. I really appreciate it; all of them helped.
I skipped my sister's wedding partly because I didn't feel like having these arguments. My sister is totally supportive, but my parents aren't like her. It does sound like you have some time to convince him. I'm sure your brother loves you. If he really understood what this was like, he would never have asked you to act like a girl. Don't wear the dress. You deserve to be comfortable. I second the comment that you should ask if he wants to wear one.
Quote from: Wesley_33 on October 12, 2011, 06:26:41 AM
The fact that the wedding isn't for a year from now is plenty of time for him to come around. Don't be an ass about it to him tho cause that won't fix anything. Be firm in the fact that you are a man same as him and he will come around. If not than wear a nice suit and sit with your mom at the wedding anyways.
i agree.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on October 12, 2011, 07:03:13 PM
There are plenty of times in life where putting others needs before your own is an outstanding quality of character and that is one of those qualities of a person that I think that is worth cultivating. That makes for better care givers, better parents, better friends ... just to be able to see something from someone else's point of view and realize it doesn't change who you are at all (and learning to discern the difference between that quality and letting people take advantage of you).
Yeah this kid's brother seems like an ass, but it's HIS special day, not his sibling's. If he's not going to be the "better man" and be considerate of his younger brother, what's so wrong about being the better man yourself and thinking of someone else's wishes. It's not like clothing changes who you are. If you think that, then you've got a lot to learn about life.
I'm kinda sick of everyone thinking they're entitled to do any damn thing they please simply because if they didn't they would be "repressing" themselves. Selfish much? Of course it is, but the "entitlement generation" thinks it's all about them, all day, every day and everyone else should bend their wishes and ideals around them.
I'm all for standing up for what you believe in, not compromising who you are and other positive qualities of being a human being. But I also believe in properly picking your battles. One day - a mere matter of hours - amongst
some family members and a lot of people you'll probably not see again (and if you do, would they even recognize you) is not the end of the world.
And it sounds like the mother is supportive of the kid by politely trying to tell the older brother it's no one else's business - he has people on his side, so it doesn't seem like a completely negative family that's not supportive of his choices otherwise. Let the pissy older brother have his one damn day. Like I said, clothing does not change
who you are at all. Whether the older brother is an ass or not, take pride in knowing that you are flexible enough to put someone else's wants before yours but also strong enough to not let a silly dress tear down your whole damn identity.
ETA
I just wanted to add that there were times when I was under 18 that my mother forced me into a dress and at the time I didn't like it, it made me feel "degraded" in a way - but that feeling didn't last and being under 18 I
wasn't given much of a choice about it either - it was just something I had to do. Looking back on it, I only wish
I could have had the viewpoint I do now on it - that wearing that dress didn't change who I was at all and it was just a few uncomfortable hours of my life. I certainly do not have "regrets" about something like that.
Obviously, what I wrote here is going to sound harsh I'm sure to a few people - but try a different perspective on it. No one can change who you are inside - only you can do that. But learning to see other viewpoints, to pick
your "compromise battles" and to allow yourself the freedom to be who you are no matter what you're wearing or what situation you're in will serve you well in life.
I cannot believe I'm hearing this in a FTM thread!! I dunno about anyone else but this Adam Ant persons opinions actually repulses me!
When did I ever say I shud get whatever I want? I was merely pointing out that the poor lad has the right to attend his bro's wedding feeling like a man in a suit rather then a man in a dress, also that no one shud make him feel guilty for wanting to do so!
Urg. Quick opinions and generalizations. Let's please not start a fight. Sometimes we speak too freely. I think we can all find a way to respect one another.
I agree with Andrew. I think your brother (sadly) will probably see you as a woman whether you are in a dress or not so he would be uncomfortable seeing you in a suit. But if you pass really well and are wearing a dress to make him happy then it will confuse everyone else, including the priest. If he is so worried about the priest finding out I would mention that you in a dress would cause way more of a scene.
I also agree with inside, that they are just clothes since a person shouldn't not want to wear a dress because they're a man, and think wearing one makes them a woman (I know you didn't say that but saying in general). I agree with you that you shouldn't have to wear it because it's going to be uncomfortable for you and cause more socially awkward situations.
I remember years ago for my aunts wedding I didn't want to wear a dress and thought my aunt would understand but my mom wouldn't let me. My aunt made me feel better because she said to me 'hey even I will be wearing one'. The worst part though was my mom picked it out for me, it was the most hideous dress I had ever seen and my twin sister's was so much nicer, wtf was that.
Anyway.... really though, will it actually make your brother happy or make him feel like he's proven a point he's wanted to prove?
If I were you I would do what I personally do when I'm around family that I'm not out to, though I am sure they know something is up seeing as how I lack visible breasts, have a male voice, and facial hair. I wear what I want to, men's dress clothes, but I let them call me my birth name (which I answer to at these functions) and female pronouns. It's hard on me somewhat but at least I can wear what I want.
Quote from: kael on October 13, 2011, 03:13:57 AM
Urg. Quick opinions and generalizations. Let's please not start a fight. Sometimes we speak too freely. I think we can all find a way to respect one another.
Sorry everyone, just going through alot at the moment so im a bit all over the place... im not generally so argumentative, honestly.
Quote from: Monster on October 13, 2011, 02:45:30 AM
I cannot believe I'm hearing this in a FTM thread!! I dunno about anyone else but this Adam Ant persons opinions actually repulses me!
When did I ever say I shud get whatever I want? I was merely pointing out that the poor lad has the right to attend his bro's wedding feeling like a man in a suit rather then a man in a dress, also that no one shud make him feel guilty for wanting to do so!
You flew off the handle at Debbie first off, who also had a valid opinion. But apparently to you, Debbie and I have no right to voice our opinions because it differs from yours. Therefore, you're not getting what you want to hear. If you can't handle other people having an opposing viewpoint, then you're going to stay angry in life.
I would say you probably missed the other two main points I was making in my response. I'll reiterate them for you: #1 - no one can change who you are. #2 - If wearing something you don't normally wear for a day of your life tears down your whole identity then you should try to go back to point #1 and re-evaluate the way you're looking at some things.
Also, it's SHOULD - not shud.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on October 13, 2011, 02:54:33 PM
You flew off the handle at Debbie first off, who also had a valid opinion. But apparently to you, Debbie and I have no right to voice our opinions because it differs from yours. Therefore, you're not getting what you want to hear. If you can't handle other people having an opposing viewpoint, then you're going to stay angry in life.
I would say you probably missed the other two main points I was making in my response. I'll reiterate them for you: #1 - no one can change who you are. #2 - If wearing something you don't normally wear for a day of your life tears down your whole identity then you should try to go back to point #1 and re-evaluate the way you're looking at some things.
Also, it's SHOULD - not shud.
Obviously YOU didnt read my apology i just did!! so u can get off ur high horse! and thanks for pointing out my dyslexia.. CHEERS!!
Quote from: Monster on October 13, 2011, 02:51:41 PM
Sorry everyone, just going through alot at the moment so im a bit all over the place... im not generally so argumentative, honestly.
Quote
Obviously YOU didnt read my apology i just did!! so u can get off ur high horse! and thanks for pointing out my dyslexia.. CHEERS!!
Everyone has their off days - and many of these topics are highly emotional to a lot of us. I've already "been there, done that" with a lot of things that people discuss on here and I've developed some unique viewpoints over the years. What I said in my original response wasn't meant to be a diss - simply to get some people to stop and think. I've learned over the years that simply changing my perspective could make a world of difference on many subjects. I've also spent a good amount of years being that guy who fought against every little thing because I was stubborn and self-righteous - trying to make everyone see it my way. I'll tell you from experience that really is detrimental.
And it seems from your latest response, you've got a ways to go. I'm not on a high horse, I just happen to have an a different view point. When you're having a less petulant day, feel free to pm me and I'd be happy to talk to you about anything you want.
I'm aware of what Dyslexia is. You seemed to spell other stuff just fine.
im sorry but ur still very self righteous in my opinion and very insulting..
I'm going to back away from whatever else is being hashed out, but we really shouldn't get onto each other about spelling. I'm literate, and I misspell things. It happens.
Quote from: kael on October 13, 2011, 10:45:59 PM
I'm going to back away from whatever else is being hashed out, but we really shouldn't get onto each other about spelling. I'm literate, and I misspell things. It happens.
Sorry ... seeing it over and over was just making me cringe. Personal pet peeve.
*backs away slowly* So, umm, who thinks it's too soon for a Footloose remake? :P
In all seriousness, I hope we were all somewhat helpful to the OP, who has so far not replied, as far as I can tell. :-\
I replied once (on the first page). Sorry for lack of response, though. Lots going on at the moment.
All the different responses and answers were really helpful and I appreciate them all. :) It gave me a lot to think on, and helped me put together exactly what I should do.
Also, please, no fighting. None. At all. There is no reason to fight or argue. Everyone has their own opinions, and as far as any typing errors or whatever, no one is perfect, and everyone types differently. If anyone insists upon fighting, then leave, just get out of this thread because I don't want to see it. (Fighting amongst friends... that's just not cool, you guys.)
I personally think he just wants me to wear it so he can prove something (What that may be, I haven't the slightest idea), but I am not going to do it. I actually sent him a message saying that I need to speak with him on some very important matters, so that's gonna happen soon.I plan on explaining everything I can in a way he will understand, and if he refuses to accept it, then so be it. I will not go out of my way anymore.
What I originally posted though, got me thinking. If he feels he needs to tell people about me, who else has he told? How many people has he introduced me to that he has told this bit of information to? How many potential friends or acquaintances have I lost because he said something to them? How many times has he completely messed up someone's opinion of me?
I suppose that bit's to be worried about another day though. It just has been bothering me since I started really thinking on it all last night.
People I told told way too many people, way too quickly, and without much sensitivity or tact. Hopefully that isn't happening. Good luck.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 13, 2011, 11:40:39 AM
If I were you I would do what I personally do when I'm around family that I'm not out to, though I am sure they know something is up seeing as how I lack visible breasts, have a male voice, and facial hair. I wear what I want to, men's dress clothes, but I let them call me my birth name (which I answer to at these functions) and female pronouns. It's hard on me somewhat but at least I can wear what I want.
Seeing as how you look/sound like a guy now, wouldn't it be pretty easy for them to call you "he"? Maybe they're just waiting for you to tell them to?
I just bet that must be real weird for them. they probably know, but are like waiting for you to tell them, or something.
I figure it's best not to upset my mother (she's at these functions). Take today for instance. It's my birthday. Thursday was my grandfather's birthday. So we all went to the nursing home for a little party. Me, my sister, my brother, my mom, my cousin and her two sons, my mom's cousin, her daughter and grandson. They sang happy birthday to me. Everyone said my birth name except for my sister, she said Andy. My mom gave her a little look but that was it. I don't think I really need to tell them. IDK I don't know most of the people who are at things like that I go to, which is only about once a year, eventually I'll show up and it'll be like dude D's daughter is a dude, and they'll just know. Some people I want to tell soon I just feel so weird.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 15, 2011, 07:03:27 PM
I figure it's best not to upset my mother (she's at these functions). Take today for instance. It's my birthday. Thursday was my grandfather's birthday. So we all went to the nursing home for a little party. Me, my sister, my brother, my mom, my cousin and her two sons, my mom's cousin, her daughter and grandson. They sang happy birthday to me. Everyone said my birth name except for my sister, she said Andy. My mom gave her a little look but that was it. I don't think I really need to tell them. IDK I don't know most of the people who are at things like that I go to, which is only about once a year, eventually I'll show up and it'll be like dude D's daughter is a dude, and they'll just know. Some people I want to tell soon I just feel so weird.
I kind of feel the same with my mom actually. I feel like it's better to just not upset her. I'm ok with letting her go through life thinking of me a certain way, it doesn't change who I am. My dad has never treated me like a female, but does call me my given name. But I've never said anything to the contrary either. Some may think that's a weak thing on my part - that I'm not as strong as some of the people who come out to their family and everyone else at any cost, but I actually put my family before me simply because I didn't want to ruin it for them. I didn't want to cause drama and everything else. My mom would not take something like this well. And I was older anyway - had long since moved out and it just didn't make any difference if my mom still thought of me a certain way.