For much of Christianity if you don't fit their denomination or creed you aren't saved. Some are so self righteous that they feel their works get others saved. The word says to allow your light to shine so that they that come in can see it. Jesus said the fields were white already to the harvest. Both go against people being added to the Book of Life. So, what does the word of God say about the books?
Revelation 20:11,12
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
John saw that the Book of Life was at the throne as well as other books.
If the Book of Life was already written there should be a trail of when people's names were added.
If this is the case it is by the election of grace and trans issues may not play a part in whether or not a person is saved.
Romans chapter nine speaks of Jacob and Esau with Jacob being chosen and Esau hated before the children ever did good or evil.
Romans chapter 11 verse 2 speaks of those whom God foreknew and in verse 5 that salvation is of a remnant by the election of grace.
This does make it clear that God knows all things. he foreknew who would love him and who would not.
So does scripture foretell about the parts of the Lord's body being foretold?
Psalm 87:1-7
[1] His foundation is in the holy mountains.
[2] The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
[3] Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
[4] I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
[5] And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
[6] The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
[7] As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.
The above scripture does indeed bear witness that the Lord wrote the people's names in his Book before they ever were born. Is there another witness?
Psalm 139:15,16
[15] My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
[16] Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them
Once again the members of his body were written in the book before they ever were.
But what about the other books?
Malachi 3:16,17
[16] Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
[17] And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
There is a Book of Remembrance of those who fear him and speak of him and think of him.
Those who do not deny the Lord but think and speak of him have such things written of them as a memorial.
But what about those who end up falling away? Paul spake of those who fell away and in 2 Thessalonians 2: 2-12 shows that there shall be a great falling away before the Lord returns.
Is this also seen in the old testament?
Psalm 69:26-28
[26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
[27] Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
[28] Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
It seems that the longer the Lord tarries in his return the more people persecute him who is smitten and blotted out.
Who is smitten of God?
Isaiah 53:1-4
[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
We can see many falling away today as 2nd Thessalonians says. They preach today of money and riches and their own glory and living the good life now. They forget that the Lord said that we must be willing to hate our life in this world to keep it unto life eternal. They no longer teach that the Lord who knows all things already knows who is and who is not written in the Book of Life. They no longer teach that to fear the Lord and think about him and speak one to another of his glory are written in a Book of Remembrance.
many that have looked down their noses at transgender people may have already fallen away themselves. Many that have coveted money and houses and their own glory while saying others were damned may already be blotted out of the Book of the Living.
Does being transgender mean you are filthy and damned?
That is not in my place to say.
The word of God Almighty that I read shows me that the Lord already foreknew whom would love him regardless of whether their life was easy or a living hell and wrote their names in the Book of Life.
In like manner he writes every word they speak about the greatness of his glory as the only begotten of the Father in a Book of Remembrance that will be opened at the judgment seat of Christ.
On that day many that have lived haughty lives will hear the word I never knew you. Many that some said never stood a chance will hear Well done thou good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of the Lord.
Jacob and Esau were foretold.
As far as I am concerned there may be some transgendered individuals that are written in the Book of Life.
The important point is to not be blotted out.
my theology is that For God so Loved the world.
Having to accept Jesus as your savior to save yourself from the wraith of God is a little hard to digest and to believe, in my opinion.
I believe that Jesus came to save all whether they want that gift or not or whether or not they even believe in Jesus. It's like a Captain of a boat saving the boat and the lives onboard. One does not need to go to the Captain to thank him in order that his life was won. The life was already won and there is not one thing we can do to change it because your life was saved when the captain took actions to to steer the boat away from destruction.
As for me saying those who preach a gospel of judgment or money, or power, I have no bearing to know their fate. One thing I do know is that I believe that God loves everyone and everyone, despite what things they have done, deserve a chance of redemption...even if that occurs posthumously.
Annah,
I agree with you for the most part young lady.
The thing that I am pointing out is that many teach if you go door to door more shall be saved. Some pray that the Lord tarries in his return that more might be saved.
What I am showing by the scriptures is that the names of those whom the good Lord knows would believe and love him were written in the Book of Life before this world was ever made. True, he died for all but not all accept it.
Another thing that I was showing by the scriptures is that many that have judged and condemned others may have already fallen away. Gay, straight, cisgender and transgender alike will see a falling away before the Lord returns. In opposition to those who say if the Lord tarries more shall be saved the scriptures show the longer he tarries the more will be blotted out.
I guess one major point I wanted to make as well is that if the Spirit of God has led anyone to repentance and eternal life in Christ no man has the right to say they are damned.
In a sense as the Lord told Peter When thou art converted strengthen thy brethren.
Too many are using the word to destroy and ruin the faith of others.
I hope that helps clarify kiddo.
Del
Assurance of Salvation
How can someone know that he has passed out of death and into life? John 5:24 says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Many people today use such Scriptures as evidence of their salvation, because they know them to be true and put their trust in them. They know that eternal life can only be found in the Son of God, and they are not looking elsewhere. Yet even though they believe in the Scriptures, is their faith valid? Can they be deceived? After all, the Pharisees earnestly held to the Scriptures, but it didn't do them any good. Their belief was empty.
Fortunately, we can hear the gospels echoed in the epistles, which can help us to judge our true condition with greater clarity. What John heard the Master say, the words which he faithfully recorded, he also explained in his letters, the epistles. Thus we read in 1 John 3:14, "We know that we have passed out of death and into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death." So from these two Scriptures just quoted, the Gospel of John and the epistle of 1 John, it becomes very clear — he who believes has passed out of death and into life, and he who loves has passed out of death into life. So believe and love are synonymous, two words representing the same reality.
Unless, of course, you have a doctrine that makes you think that you can pass out of death and into life through a belief that does not produce a life of loving your brothers. In that case, you have a different opinion from the apostle John. He could see the time coming when there would be such a great falling away from true faith, the faith that he was so familiar with. This great falling away is called apostasy, when men would say that they loved the Master but would not love His words or love the brethren. So he defined love in case there was any doubt: "We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to [must] lay down our lives for the brethren."1
After all, it was this man, John, who heard right from the mouth of the only begotten Son of God, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."2 But just to make sure, in his epistle, John spelled out in no uncertain terms what it meant to love in the same way as our Master loved:
But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We shall know by this that we are of the truth, and shall assure our heart before Him. (1 John 3:17-19)
So how do we assure our heart before Him? By loving Him? "The one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen."3 Only disciples love as He loved, because they have forsaken everything in order to become like Him. "The one who says 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."4 If we think we are loving God when we are not living to benefit our brother, we are not loving with the love that John knew was proof we had passed out of death and into life. John knew that a mystical love, the kind without practical expression, was the work of a deluding spirit.
http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/assurance-of-salvation (http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/assurance-of-salvation)
however,
when you look outside the Bible and into other religions, you get other forms of assurance of Salvation.
Ah the perils of religious paradoxes!
http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/called-be-saints (http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/called-be-saints)
Called to be Saints
Growing up as a Catholic, the word saint only brought to mind spooky-looking figures dressed in robes, with halos around their heads, each with his own particular realm of authority to answer prayers. Sainthood was a classification out of reach of ordinary people, reserved only for the most devout Catholics who were so holy they could perform miracles even after they were dead. In fact, most of those considered saints had that honor bestowed on them long after their deaths.
ETC ETC
In fact - facts being the true stuff - you can not be a Catholic Saint (or on a US Postage Stamp) until you are dead. One of the requirements is to have at least two miracles attributed to you after your death, at least since 933 C.E. or so.
Amazon,
According to the word of God the Catholic church has that wrong.
On the entries to various churches Paul writes To the saints and faithful and such.
In the early church the saints were those who followed Jesus.
Not elected by a pope or whatever.
I prefer to think of my brethren as saints.
To me that saint status doesn't have a limitation of being straight or cisgender.
In a nutshell those here who post in accordance with the word to help others are saints and I am glad that I have gotten the blessing of meeting them here.
Only to play Devil's advocate,
Quote from: Del on October 13, 2011, 01:22:08 AM
Amazon,
According to the word of God the Catholic church has that wrong.
The Bible can be translated in so many different ways because in some areas the translations may be weak also we simply do not know the culture of that time of a particular passage or verse. The Roman Catholic Church (RCC), I am sure, says the same thing about Protestants.
Also, the reasons why the Bible simply does not have a one way interpretation is just by looking at people who have their Doctorates in Ministry and Theology in both the Protestant and the RCC churches and seeing the diversity of beliefs between the two (and even within Protestantism).
The Paradigm Shift from Community to Doctrine
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3)
After the first century, right doctrine became the "litmus test" for faith instead of loving as Yahshua1 commanded.2 Late in the first century, Jude urged the believers to contend for the faith delivered once for all to the saints. This word translated as faith means the persuasion to do what the Master commanded, for this was the purpose for the faith the 3000 received by hearing the gospel on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:36-45.3 The word love was defined by Yahshua in John 14 and 15 in the same terms, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments,"4 which is amplified in John 15, "Keep my commandments... just as I have kept My Father's commandments."5
Faith, trust, and obedience were the guiding lights of the first disciples, whose faith turned the world upside down.6 But today the word faith in Jude 1:3 is taken to simply mean the knowledge and assent to religious truths, without regard to good works, which is therefore a false faith.7 In reality, the only assurance of faith is Ephesians 2:10 and 4:16 — doing the good works one was saved to do in order to build up the Body. These things are the very reason one is saved!
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
Here is an Amazing Thing!
So Jude 1:3 has nothing whatsoever to do with doctrinal correctness, as the context in verse 4 proves:
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)
Here Jude speaks of grace being turned into license to do your own thing, doing what is right in your own eyes. This started to overtake the early church when there was no longer true authority from God in the church.8 There was no restraint; each one did whatever he wanted, but still maintained a form of godliness, although denying its power.
This reveals an amazing thing: doctrine, or the right theology, requires no faith to believe.9 All it takes is mental assent, and all it gives in return is mental confidence. Such "faith" results historically (and currently) in living lives indistinguishable from the surrounding world — living independently rather than together with other believers.10 In this truly applies the wisdom of the ancients, "He who separates himself seeks his own desire."11 Yes, true faith is for the purpose of doing the works prepared for one to do in the Body of Messiah, which is the Community of the Redeemed, and which must be just as real and alive as the community in Jerusalem described in Acts 2 and 4.
Theology requires no faith, but John 13:34-35 does require faith, for it transcends what any man can do naturally:
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
The Litmus Test
John the Apostle spelled out the true "litmus test" of faith in his first letter. A litmus test decisively proves the presence or absence of a particular ingredient. The litmus test of 1 John reveals the presence or absence of God's love, which is the evidence of true faith. 1 John 3:14 reveals the truth or falsehood of one's claim to have passed from death into life:
14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 16By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 23And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
1 John 3:16 and 23 also require faith, without which even someone with the right doctrine won't pass the litmus test of 1 John 3:14 — regardless of whether he says he believes.12 Believing the right doctrine requires no faith, no love, and no laying down of one's life for his brothers.
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:1-2)
No one can do Romans 12:1 unless he obeys verse 2 by faith as well. Otherwise, the faith of Jude 1:3 is merely doctrine, the theology of theologians, learned men who can quote many scripture verses, but laying down their lives as 1 John 3:16 says is far from them. They can only teach their flocks the same "faith" as they have. A student, when fully trained, will be like his teacher. So their empty "faith" has been passed down ever since theological Bible schools have existed on earth. They have no relationship with the true Messiah13 and can only foster mental assent to theological terms, concepts, and decrees thought up by the apostates of the fourth century.14
These apostate leaders valued doctrine higher than love, and three centuries after Messiah's death began persecuting people, deposing bishops, and banishing into exile those considered to have the wrong doctrine. Ultimately, they started killing those they deemed heretics. So why is it always those with the right doctrine who end up killing those with the wrong doctrine? They obviously didn't understand 1 Corinthians 1:10 in the right spirit:
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Paul is pleading for the brothers in Corinth to be in unity; he is pleading in the very name by which they were saved. He is pleading, not forcing — you can't force unity. Forced unity is not the right spirit. As 2 Corinthians 11:4,13-15 clearly states, only Satan's servants or ministers could ever do what the Christian theologians did to dissenters. All this was in absolute violation of the Master's words to leave them alone, to let them be.15
The reason Jude so urgently said to contend for the faith that was imparted in the beginning was because he saw change coming in — a terrible change away from the pattern in Acts 2 and 4 and toward what would become the state church of Constantine. We can see the change in the way Christians thought, being persuaded and influenced by a different spirit, propagated by a different gospel, and ending up with a different Jesus from the one they accepted in the beginning.16
The Tragedy of Christian History
Starting with their acceptance by Emperor Constantine, the church turned from being the persecuted to being the persecutor. But by that time, the Holy Spirit had long ago left the church.17 No longer could anyone truthfully confess that Messiah "is come in the flesh" at their church, since it was no longer a community where all things were held in common.18 Neither could anyone say from his experience that he served the Savior where He is,19 but only from his mind. As the church declined in its love in every place,20 in spite of Paul's exhortation to them in Ephesians to love Messiah with an undying, incorruptible love,21 none seemed to be able to pass the litmus test of 1 John 5:13. This was because active, real, sacrificial love of one's brothers and sisters was no longer the emphasis,22 but rather mental assent to a list of doctrines now called "The Faith." So this doctrinal "faith" replaced the works true faith was meant to energize, as James later wrote in the second century.23
So very early on, as the church careened down its fatal decline, the emphasis shifted to doctrinal correctness, which is now considered the evidence of faith. But Jude, who wrote by the end of the first century, looking into the second, urged that they contend or have a vigorous defense of the faith delivered once and for all to God's people. What he meant by this was the faith that produced the expression of the abundant life recorded in Acts 2 and 4. That was "the faith once for all delivered to the saints."24 But faith only came to those who had ears to hear.25
When love left, the Holy Spirit left, and the light (the lampstands in each place) was extinguished.26 Eventually those who were as John 9:41 describes took the word contend in Jude 1:3 to mean taking up arms to force their "right doctrine" upon those with "wrong doctrine" under pain of death. This was contrary to the words of the true Messiah, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight."27
The "Sign" of Sanctification
Jude echoed the Apostle Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 1:2 in the opening of his epistle, when he wrote to the few who were not yet disqualified:
To those who are called, sanctified [set apart] in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ: May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. (Jude 1:1-2)
This sanctification was to be an obvious sign of God's set apart people in the New Covenant just as it was to have been in the Old. They were to be separated by God's purifying work in their lives from the lust and greed and anger and hatred of the world around them. And the sign of this sanctification, both within and without this new Israel, was still the Sabbath, as the writer to the Hebrews made clear:
There remains therefore a sabbath-keeping for the people of God [i.e., for those who enter God's rest]. (Hebrews 4:9)
So Jude's words were addressed to those who were still set apart by God the Father, and kept for Messiah. May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you, who are sanctified as in 1 Corinthians 1:2. At that time there were still those separated from the world in the Body of Messiah, the Community, as in Acts 2:42-47 and 4:32-37. They were set apart in a place where the refining process can take place in each one's life, which cannot be accomplished unless one is separated from fellowship with the world in that place where Messiah actually dwells in His Body.28 The Sabbath was like a sign over each place where God was sanctifying His people:
Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: "Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you." (Exodus 31:13)
In 1 Corinthians 1:2, "in every place" means in every township where God's name had been caused to dwell by the direct process of John 13:20 — "He who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." Starting from Jerusalem, the first community swarmed to surrounding towns in Judea, and it was according to this "Judean pattern" that Paul modeled the communities he established.29 Of course, it was "with persecutions," as Mark 10:29-30 promises. This is the mark of those who have separated themselves in a place in which they can be made pure as 1 John 3:1-3, "That they may see Him as He is, and everyone who has this hope in them purifies himself as He is pure."30
Mark 10:29-30 was the Master's answer to His disciples' question, "Who then can be saved?"31 It is the answer never given by Christian preachers today. Verse 27 explains how one is saved by obedience to His gospel, thus proving they have been persuaded to do His will. Someone has to receive the faith to not only believe in Him, but to do what He required of all whom He would save from this present evil world. Their obedience to the gospel would put them into a place where they could be purified — where He is.32 There, and only there, can anyone serve Him. As 1 Corinthians 1:2 implies, it must be a set-apart place that is in the world but not of it.33 This takes a community in a township where disciples daily love and encourage one another.34
The word sanctify in John 17:17 is the same as in 1 Corinthians 1:2 — set apart from the evil world system to be made ready (prepared) to rule with Messiah; and John 17:18 is their mission. This is why, several centuries later, the influential leaders of the church could cheerfully go along with Constantine (who was both an unbeliever and the head of the pagan Roman state religion) endorsing their religion. He offered the church worldly acceptance in place of persecution. Everything radically changed when the church accepted his proposal.
In 321 AD, Constantine effectively took down the sign of the Sabbath. The mission of the church had changed in the minds of both its leaders and its people. No longer was it called to set people apart from the world. No, much rather it was now called to send people into the world to be judges, governing officials, soldiers,35 and in time powerful political leaders, even rulers. Friendship with the world became a sign of friendship with God, in sharp contrast to the wisdom of James 4:1-3. This is why the church could now "rest" on the day of the Sun god (Sunday), for his domain is truly the kingdoms and affairs of this world.
Who then can be Saved?
One would think, reading Christian history, that worldly success and national power are the hallmarks of true faith, contrary to the teachings and example of Yahshua. But the fact is, shocking as it may seem, that for someone to walk down the aisle in the Billy Graham Crusade and be "saved" is impossible. He goes back home and does the very same things as before, except now supposedly he's going to heaven when he dies, as if that were all the Savior gave up His life for. If you want to see what He really paid such a high price for, consider how the church was in the beginning, when all who believed were together. Read about those days with open eyes and an open heart.
So then, hasn't this "sincere believer" at the Billy Graham Crusade simply believed in vain, as those in John 2:23-25? Was it not only make believe? "Might as well make believe" you love Him, which is to say you do but not obey Him.36 But this is not what the Master told His disciples they had to do in order to be saved.37
"Who then can be saved?" they asked. Only those who hear and obey the gospel, including the "many other words" (the "hard sayings of Christ") as in Acts 2:36-41 and Mark 10:17-30. The "rich young ruler" wanted to know what he had to do to be saved. The answer is the same now as it was for the 3,000 on the day of Pentecost, who gave up everything in response to the first message of salvation which the apostles preached in obedience to Messiah's commission.38 Ask yourself why the preaching of the gospel today doesn't produce the same results. Could it be a different gospel?
http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/paradigm-shift-community-doctrine (http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/paradigm-shift-community-doctrine)
Just a personal opinion,but i do believe that the organized church is missing 2 key components which go together hand in hand and without them it has gotten to be a form of godliness which is lacking in power. The first being the type of love that Christ Himself taught. (The kind that goes so far as being able to love even our enemies,showing mercy,meeting true needs not wants) and the freedom to become the people that Yahweh wants us to be.
The church has done the very same thing as the religious leaders of Yasuah's time setting up rules and regulations that He never said or taking things out of the context of what He did say. (The biggest example for me is when He was speaking to the leaders about setting aside "gifts" to God and they were letting their own parents remain in need)
It seems to me that one of the things that has been done is that has come from this is that it is said Yahweh no longer speaks to us in any other way other than through the bible. (Which to me does not make any sense as how am i suppose to really know what He meant if He does explain it to me and only speaks to those the church says are qualified? If they are in error then are they not leading me into error?) Did not the apostles learn from Him directly?
Converts are always worse then the born true believers. They have that massive infusion of zealot that sets everyone's teeth on edge. In my time in the church (it only seemed like centuries) I never had any trouble with any priests, most of which I really liked and found to be remarkably open-minded, thoughtful, and caring. Heck one of my best friends from HS became a priest and we still get together and have long conversations over beers or hiking in the hills here. (I buy, he's got a vow of poverty going.) And though in some 4 decades now neither of us has been able to convince the other, its still open to discussion. And, most of the nuns I had were pretty cool too. Sister Tim (how's that for a little gender confusion?) was, without a doubt, one of the greatest teachers I've ever had, and had a profound influence on my life making me read Abraham Maslow, Dorothy Day, Thomas Merton, and Viktor Frankl* (among others of a similar ilk) in high school. She had me read Eric Hoffer and took me and a couple others to visit him and talk with him, and did the same with Alan Watts who she was good friends with. Words would fail me if I tried to explain what it was like to be some 16 year old kid sitting with Eric Hoffer in a North Beach coffee house (my first of many visits to coffee houses) discussing what made true believers function and why people fear change. His notion, and living example of having a full and balanced life - that one could, as he did, lecture on philosophy at the University of California a couple days a week and work as a longshoreman the other days still guides my life. And I still marvel that I was blessed enough to have spend a long afternoon sitting on a houseboat in the shadow of Mount Tam and listening to Alan Watts tell us that thinking your are beginning to understand is the beginning of not understanding anything at all. Sister Tim (I realize in retrospect) was telling me/teaching me that if I was to be a secular humanist (for lack of a better term) then I ought to at least be a real good one.
So I guess it is that we all have our own notion of a Book of Revelations.
But, of course, being raised and educated Catholic I find the entire notion of a Book of Revelations to be abhorrent and revisionist as the original title in the Catholic Bible for that is The Book of the Apocalypse.
And those two things - The Letters of Paul and the BotA, are the two most dangerous sections of the Bible. Had Christianity confined itself to being a religion based on the Gospel of John it would be pretty OK. But the real undercurrent of the actual religion is really Paul, and that's not good at all. It's fricking evil. Paul preached hate based on fearing god, and not love, and that sickness has infested the religion at it's very base.
As for BotA, I wrote this before, but it's still true.
Even though I'm a solid rational science-based agnostic, or perhaps because of it, I had my kids read the Bible, or at least parts of it as per my 'suggestions' - OK I didn't suggest, I forced them to do it. So we would read, and discuss, and read again (like any good reader would) the parts I felt were the most valid/meaningful/critical. I felt it was important for three reasons. One, its the foundation of Western Literature, and if you don't know those words/ideas your going to be profoundly at a loss when it comes to comprehending literature. So when some writer says their character is going through 'the trials of Job' your not going to be able to comprehend that until, or unless you read the Book of Job. I don't think anything ever written addresses suffering and the nature of evil like the Book of Job does. Moreover, its critical to talking about the notion: "Is misfortune always a divine punishment"? Something I wanted to talk to my kids about.
And I could go on about why I wanted them to read Genesis, Exodus, and why Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy not so much. I always like Ruth, Ester and Danial, so we did those. And we did the history ones - because part of the bible is pretty much not about god, but a history of the Israelite people, so Kings and Chronicles. And we would skip around to a few other stories. And I would put particular stress on Psalms, Ecclesiastics, Proverbs and the Song of Solomon and Lamentations as they are so perfect in the poetics
Only then, when we had finished the Old stuff would we move to the New. And in that, only the Gospels. Matthew and John in full, Mark and Luke in parts. (Mark and Luke can't hold a candle to Matthew and John as writers - although I find Luke to be the most credible of the four).
I never had them read the Acts and Letter, especially Paul. I hate Paul. Paul sucks. Paul was the first in a long line of people stretching to the present day who completely and utterly missed the point.
The other thing I did, which several people have though was slightly weird - others understand the true brilliance of it - is that the bibles in my house had the Revelation of John (the Apocalypse in the Catholic bibles I used) cut out of them. I did not want my kids to read that anytime before they had finished college, preferably not until they had finished their PhDs and could arm themselves against the most dangerous and deadly book ever written.
No book ever written has been more dangerous than this one. Dangerous to others, and dangerous to the reader. For anyone who thinks that books are just words and are not dangerous, I would offer up the Revelation of John as a pretty good reason why some books ought to be banned, or at least kept under very strict control.
And, its not because it's bad, hell no. Only the Song of Solomon had a better writer. In terms of Literature, nothing else compares to the Revelation of John in its vision (and oh boy was he seeing visions), its style, its increadible use of symbolism, and its end message. I doubt that any work ever done in any language save the Tao Te Ching has as many possible meanings as the Revelation. It has as many meanings as it has readers. Which is what makes it dangerous. Where meaning in the Tao is largely good - contemplating your existence and how you work with the world rather than against it - the meaning of John is the most horrible blood soaked death trip ever. It is profoundly negative.
A bunch of people were having a discussion about the most horrible thing you could ever do to anyone, and they had thought up some pretty horrible stuff, real gruesome, real mean, incredibility complex but I won with my simple idea. If I really hated someone, I mean really hated them I'd give them a massive dose of pure lysergic acid diethylamide-25, and lock them in a room with nothing but the Book of Revelations. They would either kill themselves, or come out and kill everyone else. Either way, they would be out of their mind, insane crazy forever.
David Koresh's Branch Davidians in Waco Texas, that's the Book of Revelations at work. Why did that whole Waco deal go down like it did? Because they were either going to die, or they were going to go on a killing spree, and I think that's why the government acted as they did (I would have suggested a different tactic, but even then I think the end result would have been the same). Why? Because if you read it, and believe it - then nothing matters. Nothing. Nothing you do, or ever can do, is going to change the end as it is written, and as its written the end is nothing you want to be around for. But written it is, and that's the way it is. There is a finality to Revelations, perhaps the final finality that makes all of life pointless and meaningless. Which in turn, makes it very dangerous.
Anyway, point is, everyone does with the Bible what I did with my kids. Take what they like and ignore the rest. I'm just being upfront about it.
* - I still read Merton constantly, the only author who's books have been next to my bed since high school, his quote: If you want to study the social and political history of modern nations, study hell. is about one of the most accurate statements I've ever read and has only become more clear and more true since I first encountered it. While no other single book ever had the impact on my life, thought and beliefs as Man's Search for Meaning did. When I was 16, as it is now that I'm 56, the notion that guides my life is Frankl's statement that: Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. Which was also Sister Tim's cardinal points, that someone else's behavior should never have the power to change your behavior.
Acts is the best part of the bible because all people came together and shared all things in common and thusly lived as jesus / Yahshua lived caring for one another before themselves.
Amazon,
I agree that the book of Acts is a good example as to how Christians should live.
But I also believe that the words of Jesus are the best teaching as well. Both where he loved and was angered.
I do not tend to get into debates as the word of God is spiritually discerned. The Holy Ghost that spake through David (in Psalms) is the same Spirit that Jesus said will lead into all truth and glorify the Lord.
Many use their mind but as pointed out it doesn't take faith to learn from a book or school.
On the contrary it does take faith to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Another thing is that with education rather than having to have faith one must pay tuition whereas when one man wanted to buy the power of the Spirit so that when he laid hands on a person they would receive the Spirit Peter told him his heart was not right in the sight of God.
Over the years I have seen many haggle back and forth over what this word or that word or this statement or that statement means.
The pharisees knew the Hebrew language better than any scholar today. Still, when Jesus spake of rebuilding the temple in 3 days they thought he spake of the building when he really meant his body.
It is the Holy Ghost that reveals what scripture means. Or, in other words the word means what Jesus Christ says it means and not man's mind or Strong's Concordance and such.
The best route for any Christian to follow who really wants to know the truth and not misuse the word of God is to seek the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the leading of the Spirit.
For example. I posted about the Book of Life and the Book of Remembrance.
have you noticed how far from this the conversation has strayed?
That is why if I feel led to post something that I feel will help a person (either known or lurking) I post it but really do not care to get involved with the debates to follow.
For the most point they cloud the original meaning and bring more confusion than understanding.
But, I hope you guys and gals enjoy the debate.
Del
Quote from: Annah on October 13, 2011, 07:20:12 AM
I always cringe when I hear the phrase, "The Apostle Paul."
There were 12 Apostles as Jesus wanted but sadly only 2% of all Christians do not know who the 12th Apostle is (without googling it) and many assume it was Paul.
Gotta love a formal Pharisee who appoints himself Apostle. The guy never hung out with Jesus...nothing. But one day, he started seeing things, fell off his donkey and now he was an Apostle.
Ummmm....first I'll try remembering it...Stephen? Next I verify this by looking it up in the B o A....ah, it was Matthias, chosen by the casting of lots, Acts1: 20-26. (TEV)
But what about Saul? Acts 7:58, 8:3. And what about that "light from the sky"? 9: 3-9. You do have a good point there Annah, as specified in 1: 20-22, the criteria for being an Apostle was..."must be on of the men who were in our group during the whole time that the Lord Jesus traveled about with us, beginning from the time John preached his message of baptism until the day Jesus was taken up from us to heaven". Your right, Saul wasn't there... :laugh:
SJ
P.S.- Costume? Jeeessh... :laugh:
Quote from: Annah on October 12, 2011, 06:20:32 PM
however,
when you look outside the Bible and into other religions, you get other forms of assurance of Salvation.
Ah the perils of religious paradoxes!
Interesting. What kinds of assurance?
Quote from: Forum Admin on October 14, 2011, 12:56:13 PM
Interesting. What kinds of assurance?
Well,
In Islam one must abide by the pillars of faith as a path to salvation. The Pillars of Faith does not guarantee one into the Allah's Kingdom but it helps along the way.
In Hindu, salvation comes in the form of going through four goals. Which are Virtue, Success, Pleasure, and finally Release. By obtaining these goals through resurrection (as they claim it cannot be done in one lifetime) they will reach the Divine Reality. There is no right way or wrong way to obtain these goals.
In Wicca, it is through your communion with the God and Goddess and through your worship you will enter into The Summer Land which is a place to be as you make your decision for reincarnation or not.
In Buddhism, one reincarnates (each reincarnation takes 49 days until one becomes reincarnated) until their deeds represents into the being part of Nirvana. One becomes nothing and you become part of the universe.
Judaism has changed quite a bit since 70 CE. Before 70 CE, salvation came through following the laws of Torah and through animal sacrifices. Since 70 CE, salvation is still followed through the law but in drastically different ways (depending on the Sect of Judaism).
The only religions where they preach in the existence of hell for those who do not believe in their brand of religion are Conservative Christianity and Conservative Islam.
Hell in Eastern Religions are projections of your ownself and one can leave hell when they realize certain errors they committed.
Judaism believes in a "hellish afterlife" but one can leave that place as well.
The hell that most of us think of today is purely Christian/Islamic with a lake of fire, a devil torturing you, and you are stuck there forever. However, many progressive Christians and Muslims do not believe in a hell (and neither do I) based on interpretations.
If there is no hell, then what exactly becomes the point of salvation, what exactly are you being saved from anymore?
Quote from: tekla on October 14, 2011, 03:17:51 PM
If there is no hell, then what exactly becomes the point of salvation, what exactly are you being saved from anymore?
depending on the religion.
Salvation can come through oneself and Salvation can come from being apart from oneself.
In many Christian circles, salvation already happened 2000 years ago (Some Progressive Christian beliefs hold to that Jesus was the bridge between God and Humankind and all are saved for God so loves
ALL the world) so Progressive Christians celebrate the remembrance of Christ and uses their presence to help others through charity, overcoming obstacles etc. Because salvation is assured does not mean there is no place for the church today. And this is where people get into a rut. People begin to assume that Church is a place to get saved at. I see church as a place to celebrate and fellowship the fact that salvation has been assured.
One does not necessarily have to believe in a hell to hold onto salvation. That is a very Western thought that Salvation is the product of saving oneself from hell.
Salvation can mean many things other than saving oneself from hell.
Wow Annah i would love to see one of those churches that celebrates our salvation while simultaneously helping the poor and living as Jesus / Yahshua taught ut to live.. The best thing i found out there is a group of 70's hippy jesus movement peeps who now have communities all over the world. They are the twelvetribes.org They believe that they should devote their lives to God 24/7 which is great but they do not give to the poor like i had hoped but they do take in women with 6 children and train them up and feed them and nourish them but they still have some old ideas. However, they do talk about all types of birds roosting in the same tree. They did accept me, but i left to take care of my mother which they do frown on because they say that we have to give up mother father brother sister son and daughter and will be given a hundred fold in their community.. However, my mom never gave up on me and well i can't let them put her in some old age home to rot away.. but one day i may go back to the twelve tribes.. because they are people who own nothing as individuals but share all things in common as spoken about in acts 2+4
Quote from: tekla on October 13, 2011, 02:34:05 PM
Converts are always worse then the born true believers.
Er, there wouldn't have been any Christianity without converts. Nor any Islam either for that matter.
Minor point ;)
Great point. Think of how many people would not have had to die horrible deaths had that been true.
Come on, just because so called Christian nations have been responsible for the deaths of tens of millions these last hundred years isn't a reason to tar all Christians with the same brush.
All fundamentalists are equally bad, even Buddhists, just look at how Thailand deals with its Muslim minority. There have been various Christian terrorist groups operating in India for many years but the press prefers to ignore them in favour of highlighting Muslim ones.