I don't come 'round here too often any more and usually, when I do, I read up on moderation reports and read through a couple threads and then I get frustrated, even angry, and I close the tab and have to go do something else to calm down...
Heck, sometimes reading political news is a good "calming" activity after reading through yet another thread full of the same infighting and identity policing that's been going 'round for a while now and it is getting to be too much for me.
I'm the sort that tries his best to write from a calm, reasonable, rational standpoint which means I have made it a habit to walk away, catch my breath, calm down and think things through before I start typing.
Obviously, when something really pisses me off whenever I come around the amount of posting I actually do drops down pretty far pretty fast.
Still, this place is for "ranting" and I really need to get these thoughts out at least this once.
You know what I'm referring to.
I'm referring to the "you're not really transsexual unless you X/Y/Z" debate and the stacks of accusations that come with it.
I'm gonna start with two tiny little sentences just to express the core of my sentiment and what'll follow.
Our rights will never be equal if we keep denying them to each other.
No two human beings are a 100% identical in any way.
- The rights that transsexual people have been fighting for since the first trans person stood up and dared seek it for herself is the right to be themselves, the right to having a body that they can live with and fits their identity as closely as possible, the right to be recognized as a human being, as themselves, and the right to be free of oppression and abuse.
One of the things in this debate that angers me is the suggestion that non-op trans persons are impeding the current fight or demeaning those that have fought for trans rights in the past or even damaging what progress this fight for these basic human rights has already accomplished.
The implication is that by asking for the same rights as others the non-op is depriving them of their rights.
I don't know about you, but this right there is possibly the most insulting part of the debate to me.
It's not a new argument either, it's been used every time a minority has sought out some basic human rights for themselves to push a part of the minority down for not complying with a standard of being or presenting which is thrust upon them with considerable force.
For example, bisexuals (and other people who don't fit into homosexuality or heterosexuality as an accurate description of their sexual orientation) get this form of guff from homosexuals both in the form of outright bigotry and denial that their sexual orientation is even real as well as in the form of the accusation that their existence and open presentation as themselves is impeding the current fight, demeaning "all" homosexuals but especially those that have fought for gay rights in the past and even damaging what rights they've already obtained.
It is impossible for someone to reduce your rights or get in the way of you having your rights simply asking to be given human rights that others have or are also asking for while not fitting some standard they never agreed to themselves and continuing to suggest it takes the responsibility away from where it lies, with the system that denies us all our rights.
It's not the trans woman who chooses to live with her penis that makes society mock you, deny you work or housing, deny you medical help, deny you any number of human rights you are being denied. It's society's ignorance, arrogance and xenophobia.
Furthermore, when you accuse others of this, you are adding to the ignorance, arrogance and xenophobia by taking it and making it your own and using it to oppress others.
We all just want to be ourselves.
Period.
End of story!
I don't prevent you from being you by being me and you don't prevent me from being me by being you!
But when we accuse one another of getting in the way of equal rights simply by existing and being different from ourselves then we've started doing something other than just "being ourselves", we've started policing what others are allowed to be to deserve the same rights as we have or want.
And when we start doing that then we are no longer fighting to be treated as "equal" but we've started fighting to be treated as superior.
- There's another point that makes me angry, nowhere near as angry as the above one in and of itself but it frustrates me to no end and I feel I've addressed it repeatedly and what makes me angry is that it appears like people either don't understand why it's problematic or they just don't care.
It's the focus on genital surgery.
See, this frustrates me to no end for a couple of reasons.
There's the obvious (to me) problem of defining each other by their genital status when we are all here because society defined us by our genitals in the past and they defined us wrong. (I'm going to expand on this before I address the second main reason.)
I've brought this up repeatedly, and I've seen others bring this up repeatedly, but this doesn't seem to slow down the regurgitation of this point at all.
I mean, is it really that hard?
We are brought up in a society that takes a peek at our genitals at birth and exclaims penis = a boy, will grow up to be a man, get a job, marry a woman, get her pregnant, etc. vulva = a girl, will grow up to be a woman, get a job, marry a man, get pregnant, etc.
We are the people who end up saying "No, I'm not a boy/girl even if I have a vulva/penis."
We come here to get away from society that keeps telling us that we're delusional cause we're obviously boys/girls cause we have penises/vulvas to be allowed to be ourselves, talk to one another, share our experiences, look for advice and support from other people who can understand that just cause you have a penis/vulva doesn't mean you're a boy/girl.
To come here, and to other places like this, and get told that if we don't do everything humanly possible to get rid of the penis/vulva we're obviously boys/girls is a pretty big let down.
I mean, if I wanted someone to tell me I'm a delusional girl I'd go to a forum full of bigoted asses.
I don't know about you, but my genitals do not make me a girl!
They didn't when I was born.
They didn't 10 years ago.
They don't today!
We've all had the conversation with some idiot who can't get over what's in our pants, that can't stop defining us by their contents, that can not understand that the presence of a penis is not the be all end all definition of whether or not you are a man, if it was then we wouldn't exist!
And that brings us to the second part of why this argument sets me off.
"Except if you're FTM"
This comment often comes up as an attempt to show some meager understanding for the fact that trans men do not have as good options as trans women but it's such a disgusting comment when shown in context of where it's being used that it does nothing to actually help.
It's tucked into a conversation wherein transsexuality is being defined by genital surgery plans and gender (no, not sex, gender) is being defined by genital status or plans for genital surgery. Where women are being defined by the presence of or plan for a vagina (not "desire" for, plan for).
There's such a hypocritical nature to the argument especially when it comes with that little tag right there.
I'm not defined by my genitals because the results of surgeries available to me are not as good as results of surgeries available to women, who are then defined repeatedly in the span of a short post by their genitals, denied their womanhood, because... penis.
But it's okay, I don't need to have a penis to count as a guy, cause I'm FTM.
I do not want any effing charity!
I do not want to be an effing exception!
I am a man.
Period.
End of effing story!
Not because I have a penis.
Not because I can't get a penis surgically created that is sufficiently natural looking and functioning to be worth the surgical risks (in my opinion, in relation to my own body, no one else's.)
Not because I'm allowed to be a man with a vagina because I'm FTM.
But because I was born a man.
I am no more a man now than I was 10 years ago, and I'm no less a man now than I was 10 years ago.
I really shouldn't have to say that, considering the first problem with this general point, but apparently I do, and that pisses me off.
I'm not the exception to the rule, I am the rule. I am a man who was born with a body that did not and does not fit the standard configuration of a male body.
It's not a woman's body, it's mine, I'm a man, therefore it's a man's body.
I have had to explain the fact that I am a man, that I identify as male, that it doesn't matter whether I'm wearing a dress or wearing slacks, that it doesn't matter whether I have long hair or short, and that it doesn't matter whether I have a penis or a vagina, I identify as male, I know I'm a man, to a lot of people.
If there was one group of people I would never have believed that I would have to explain this to is others who have had to explain the same to people around them!
- And this infighting and bickering and so on... it doesn't help anyone.
Not only does it hurt us as individuals to have our identities disrespected by "our own", but it hurts our cause in seeking equal rights!
One of the central points of seeking trans rights, at least where I'm from, is and has been that women who identify as women are women and men who identify as men are men and that they should be treated as the men and women they are and given what help they need, as individuals, to live!
The only problem with that point, in my opinion, is that it's too binary and it doesn't allow human beings to simply be themselves.
See, what happens when we, trans people, start pointing at each other and saying "you're not really transsexual" is that we're also telling each other "you're not really a man/woman" and when this comes with a genital focus it equates gender with sex and that's not a step towards being recognized by our gender when our sex differs from it.
And all this energy we waste on policing each other's identity and defining each other and hurting each other and ruining any remote chance of cohesion could be put into actually bloody working towards getting the rights we all want, the rights we all deserve, regardless of whether or not we want to let someone take a razor sharp blade to our genitals or not!
- I am so horribly fed up, sick to death, of seeing this bickering and identity policing and the hurt feelings and angry posts and I know, I know I'm quite probably going to see more of it as a response to this post, but I can't keep quiet any longer.
I'm tired, I'm sore, and I'm fed up.
It makes this site into yet another battleground, and I came here because I needed support, advice, and acceptance from people who understood that I am not my genitalia, not to fight battles.
I'm intending to make this the last post I make on the subject, but that may not mean I'm done lurking.
Like I said, this whole thing is just too angering for me to be around it much.
So well said. I am a crossdresser, I'm not even leaning towards surgery. My reasons for coming here are friendship, support, and advice. Hugs, Tracey
I don't buy into the argument that surgery = trans
That argument just seems way too similar to me to the arguments that the general population uses to oppress us. I don't see why you have to have a a crotchstick to be a man, or a hole in your underside to be a woman. While it's desirable for most of us to have these things, I don't see why it should be a defining factor. That just seems very silly to me. That is the exact same thinking that caused us to be oppressed to begin with.
The view being expressed is that surgery is simply an elective
option and not medically required for the patients health and well-being. By removing the emphasis on genitals, you are saying it is not necessary ...maybe just an option for some. Am I reading this wrong? This is what I am reading in your denial of genitals, that genitals are not important. That it simply isnt important or necessary.
QuoteIt's not the trans woman who chooses to live with her penis that makes society mock you, deny you work or housing, deny you medical help, deny you any number of human rights you are being denied. It's society's ignorance, arrogance and xenophobia.
Furthermore, when you accuse others of this, you are adding to the ignorance, arrogance and xenophobia by taking it and making it your own and using it to oppress others.
For those expressing that option publicly, primarily long term non-ops, declares to the world that SRS is a choice, similarly as being gay is a choice. With the notion of it being only a choice publicly, this can affect the publics sentiment which would have a very real harmful effect on future women's ability to have surgery and transition their sex. Why would you or anyone want to do that?
Why is the sentiment that SRS is only elective and just a choice so prevalent here? What about all the women who have had SRS on this site since the site began?
Why the rallying around folks who have done nothing actively to declare their gender publicly other than perhaps take some pills or nothing, when there are people stepping into the workplace facing real crisis and danger and losing jobs? Why not spend efforts on those folks?
Instead there is so much rhetoric about choice. Do what you want. The infighting comes down to surgery as choice or medically necessary.
There are many people here doing what they need to do, doing what is necessary for their health. People very afraid. It would be much more helpful to rally around those people instead of casting anger at those who have medical needs for their health.
Miniar, you have summed up this issue perfectly!
Genitals do not define us, we define ourselves.
Personally, I can never understand (and will never understand) how some people who have been the object of ridicoule and subjugation based upon their own gender identity will do the same thing to others.
I would assume that because we go through the condemnation of an ignorant society telling us we have to be a girl cause we have a vulva or we have to be a boy because we have a penis, that it is more appalling, shocking, and hypocritical (as well as ironic) that a trans person could have the audacity to the very same type of attacks to other trans who do not fit their mold.
The only peace of mind I have in all of this is the fact that these type of trans who force gender identity on other trans based on what they do or do not have between their legs is a growing minority...and it's getting smaller as time passes.
Another peace of mind i have is the fact that the medical community (gender therapists, psychiatrists, endocrinologists, etc) also see's our gender identity based upon how we see ourselves versus what is between our legs. You can see this in the simple fact that hormone replacement therapy is prescribe to non ops as well. If the medical community truly felt that only trans people who are getting surgery are the only real trans women out there, then they would never prescribe medication to non ops.
80 years ago, the trans definition may have been one thing. But the wonderful aspect of medical practice, ethics, and terminology is that they adapt, they change, and they evolve. And rightly so!
Then why have surgery? Just cancel yours if genitals are not important to you.
QuoteThe only peace of mind I have in all of this is the fact that these type of trans who force gender identity on other trans based on what they do or do not have between their legs is a growing minority...and it's getting smaller as time passes.
So you are also saying that SRS is only a choice? That more and more dont need it?
It sounds like there has been a cure somehow.
Whatever happened to body incongruence or GID? Is this a social movement your speaking of, of gender variance? If so, nothing wrong with that. But there are still people requiring that their body be congruent to resolve a condition which has debilitated them.
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 16, 2011, 12:42:34 PM
Why is the sentiment that SRS is only elective and just a choice so prevalent here? What about all the women who have had SRS on this site since the site began?
Because for some trans people, SRS to them is a choice and for others, it is a must have. For me, I see my SRS as a choice. As I told my therapist, that if I could not have SRS surgery for some reason, that would be fine for me. I could have lived without it.
Likewise, I know for some girls, they cannot live without and must have the srs to feel complete.
Both arguments of position are valid. What people are upset about is not the ones who felt they HAD to have SRS surgery to feel complete but the fact that *some* girls find those who see SRS as a choice as being wrong.
Both, the choice or the must have, are both right. It depends on the person.
QuoteWhy the rallying around folks who have done nothing actively to declare their gender publicly other than perhaps take some pills or nothing, when there are people stepping into the workplace facing real crisis and danger and losing jobs? Why not spend efforts on those folks?
Gender identification is not measured by what year someone came out of the closet or whether or not they are fulltime in there chosen gender identificaiton. Gender identification is not measured by how many therapy sessions one goes through. Gender identification is not measured by whether or not one is on HRT. Gender Identification is not measured by how many times someone goes to a job interview dressed in their chosen gender.
Gender identification is measured by the person her/himself.
QuoteInstead there is so much rhetoric about choice. Do what you want. The infighting comes down to surgery as choice or medically necessary.
There are many people here doing what they need to do, doing what is necessary for their health. People very afraid. It would be much more helpful to rally around those people instead of casting anger at those who have medical needs for their health.
And those who feel that they MUST have SRS should have srs. But don't point fingers at people who feel that it is a choice for them and then say "you're wrong and you are not really a medically bonafide transsexual if you feel that you don't need it." That's just silly and ignorant.
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 16, 2011, 12:46:45 PM
Then why have surgery? Just cancel yours if genitals are not important to you.
So you are also saying that SRS is only a choice? That more and more dont need it?
It sounds like there has been a cure somehow.
Whatever happend to body incongruence or GID? Is this a social movement?
See my above post. No, SRS was not necessary for me. I could have lived without it and I would have been a girl without it.
Dont you think declaring it is a choice tells the public funding or assistance isnt necessary? Isnt it logical that this can have a very serious negative effect on the future of trans care?
Cmon, this is important for those people coming after us that need public assistance.
Well, thats my opinion anyway. I know it is a minority here.
no i dont think so.
They asked very little questions about it because I am covered. They only asked who I was having the surgery with, checked to see if it fell in their policy coverage area, asked about aftercare, etc. They never asked me "so do you HAVE to have this or is it just one of those things. Based on my therapy reports sent to them, they knew it was a choice for me.
And insurance companies do realize the fact that SRS is necessary and a must for some trans people so they aren't going to judge coverage on a person by person basis in the US if you fall under corporate coverage guidelines of have the coverage in your contract.
If SRS is covered at your company and you meet the requirements of the insurance company for SRS (which they use WPATH) then you will have the surgery.
I worked at Liberty Mutual. I seen the behind the scenes of this.
The only thing you have to really fight for is disability insurance coverage if your company has it because many disability companies has srs listed as an elective and some do not (depending on your company's contract of disability insurance)....which is different than medical insurance.
Okay, maybe your right then. Maybe it is a choice for many. Maybe it being viewed as a choice to the public wont harm anyone.
Good luck with your surgery.
Quote from: Sarah7 on October 16, 2011, 01:13:30 PM
And I was not born male. I am not MTF. I was born a transsexual female and surgery will not change that. In six months once I've "proved" my identity to my government, the error made on my birth certificate will be corrected. It will not be amended to say I became female. It will say that on March 29, 1984 a female child named Sarah was born.
You go, girl ;D
I agree, infighting gets us absolutely nowhere. I've been here for a few years, and seen many people leave, some who'd become good friends. Some who left were post op, some pre-op, some non-op, androgyne, genderqueer, etc. I believe that many have left for the same reason, an underlying feeling of intolerance for who they were and for others like them at this forum.
If we are truly to be a support site, then we all need to make an effort to understand each other, listen to our respective stories and empathize with the pains and sorrows we have each experienced. It's OK to be different, interestingly some of my best friends here at Susan's aren't like me at all, they have walked/chosen very different paths than mine. Same goes for my offline life.
I want the same thing for everyone here; equal rights in society to be ourselves, and for each to be free from discrimination because of who they happen to be and how they happen to live. No matter how different.
Who I am doesn't negate who you are!
Z
That's exactly it. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT, AND WE HAVE DIFFERENT NEEDS. I feel that for us to lump all transsexual people into the same category is at least as bad as a cisgender person's doing it. Frankly, I think it's worse when we do it. It's like telling all the cis people (who think we are butch girls and women in dresses), "Hey, you can't define who I am, but I get to define all the other trans people."
Screw that.
Some of us need SRS (or whatever you prefer to call it) pretty much right away, as soon as we can get it.
Some of us need it but won't be getting it anytime soon. In the meantime, we survive as best we can. Some of the people who fit this description don't make it. Most probably do, but we aren't living to our fullest potential. Take me, for example. I spend a lot of time...no, WASTE a lot of time just coping with the fact that I don't have typical male equipment. I get depressed and angry about it. But I can survive. I don't know how long I can survive. That remains to be seen. Perhaps at some point, I'll just come to peace with what I have, and it won't plague me anymore, or not much. If I get to that point, it doesn't make me less of a man than a guy who has had vaginectomy and phallo or meta.
Some of us spend years trying to decide if SRS is right for us.
Some of us don't need SRS at all, period. I don't understand those folks, but I don't need to. I might be one of those people some day.
The people who don't need SRS or who don't need it right now or who aren't sure whether they need it DO NOT DEFINE ANYONE ELSE BUT THEMSELVES. What should they do--just shut up and pretend that they don't feel the way they do? Stop identifying themselves as trans or gender-variant or MAFAB/FAMAB or whatever? Should they go ahead and have surgery because some people think that the cause is better served when we are all alike?
Screw that.
And I don't appreciate it when some women refuse to consider FTMs as part of the equation ("I can only speak for the women"/"I don't know anything about trans men") or when they excuse us from consideration because, you know, we don't have the best surgical options. That's a copout, or it's marginalization, or it's sheer laziness--or there's a hole in your reasoning, and you just don't want to go there because then you'll have to think hard and make some tough decisions and maybe even change your point of view.
I'll tell you a little secret. I know a number of trans men who don't want surgeons monkeying around with their bottom parts, and it's not because the surgeries are imperfect and/or expensive. It's because those guys don't feel that their bottom parts completely define them--and their reasons are as varied as their labels for themselves. Some feel that the micropenis they get from T is enough. Some never use the front hole and don't have a problem with its being there. Some are able to pack--every day, in the shower, in bed with one or more partners--and that is enough. Ever hear a trans man say, "I have a penis. What size do you prefer?" A prosthetic device can be a very powerful "tool" for mitigating or even eliminating body dysphoria. Please don't discount it. And I realize that trans women can't exactly do the equivalent, so it's a good thing that more of you can get surgery if you want it. But not everyone wants it. Sometimes they honestly don't want it and sometimes maybe it's sour grapes. But that's not for me to decide, is it?
We are individuals with different needs. We define ourselves in our own way. Those differences exist, and the sooner the cisgender world realizes that, and begins to accommodate that, the better off we will be. If they're confused by the fact that some of us need surgery now and some of us can wait and some of us don't need it at all, then it will just take a while to make them understand. This is not a simple problem with simple solutions. So I feel that it's bigoted and irresponsible to blame the problem on trans people who don't fit the classic mold.
Remember how that mold was created? Remember how many people (Americans, at least) in the past lied to the PTBs about how they identified and how they felt and how they wanted to live and how they wanted to change their bodies? That's because some well-meaning "experts" decided to set up ground rules, and they completely ignored the beautiful diversity of the people they were dealing with. The femme guys. The men who didn't want phallo. The women who were lesbians, even though there was no such thing, by the prevailing medical standards. The transsexuals who didn't fit traditional gender roles--men who liked to cook and play with kids, women who liked to wear pants (gasp) or take motorcycles apart.
The categories and the labeling that came out of that world and those times are working against us now. The world will have to understand that--eventually. And so will we.
I just want to reiterate that all the things I'm saying here I am saying as a regular member and not a mod. Everything I'm saying is MY OPINION. Needless to say, I've become increasingly frustrated about all the fighting, just as Miniar has been. I started to post about this last night but didn't have the brain cells to follow through. But now Miniar, bless his beautiful soul and articulate language, has paved the way for me. Thank you, Min.
Kia Ora,
::) When it comes down to the nitty gritty, some 'need' genital surgery, some 'would like' genital surgery, and some 'don't' .....[I slotted into the "would likes" and was fortunate enough to have surgery, however if I hadn't, I would have just continued living as a somewhat happy and content woman with that little a bit extra]
" IT'S ALL ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL'S LEVEL OF CONTENTMENT"
After all....All a person wants is to be happy [in their own skin]......And I should add "If you're happy-I'm happy !"
Metta Zenda :)
Miniar has made an excellent post.
However...
Val brings up some solid counter points. (imho)
It is however a catch 22 as far as I can tell.
Folks see black and white. If SRS is optional for some trans people then they will surmise that it is optional for all of us.
Obviously to those of us who need SRS to be complete the idea of it being optional is downright ludicrus.
For those who it is an option, it is an option and that reality can not be denied.
But I do think that because SRS is optional for some of us, there are those who will consider it optional for all of us.
Personaly when I read Annah post that for her SRS is optional and she is getting it anyways, I lost it.
To me SRS is a life afirming and vital surgery for my sanity and quality of life. I am stuck in a perpetual state of hell. I can not imagine SRS to be optional. I dont understand how it can be optional at all.
Life sux.
Kia Ora,
::) I can see the dilemma facing 'surgery driven' trans-people who live in the US, especially when it comes to the possibility of legally recognising non-ops and insurance cover for pre-ops...
As CynthiaLee said it truly is a catch 22....
Metta Zenda :)
]: It is sad to see the infighting when I do. Everything seems to have already been said, so all I can do it be tolerant myself and try not to inspire fights/continue them.
I hope we can come to terms with each other as this is, after all, a support site.
Well, there have been many things left out of this discussion but none of us will persuade the other, thats for sure. So why bother. I do have some questions for those of you declaring women's surgery is a choice and wish to vent some myself, since this is the vent forum and the purpose of this thread.
I do not nor ever will understand the premise that women's SRS is a choice and not a medical intervention.
Annah, you still have not stated why you are having SRS, if it is not needed? Please let us know why you are correcting your body? Why do you want a binary body (not need, according to you) ...to correct it, maybe, so that it is congruent? To have a functional part that matches your identity? It sounds hypocritical that you are having surgery denied by others and calling it a choice, you dont really need it. Many women here who cannot get surgery, except lucky you. And here you are telling them that it is a choice. That doesnt make them feel too good, Im sure. I had a PM this evening from a woman in tears on reading what you wrote, because she needs it and cannot have it. She wrote in despair and grief over what you wrote. A member here.
For you FtM people to argue that a woman's surgery is optional is reprehensible. A surgery that can provide a fully functional vagina to correct their body. If you cannot desire that functioning body to your female peers, what does that say about you? Why are you weighing in on women's surgery?
For you FTM people, if there was a surgery that gave you a fully functioning, beautiful penis, yet those that stated it was a choice caused the public to perceive it was only cosmetic and elective how upset would you be, in all honesty? How erased would you feel? Are you seriously telling me that if a beautiful penis could be provided you would see it as a choice and not a medical intervention that you needed? You wouldnt be first in line? Cmon?
It's easier to declare someone angry and a lunatic and moderate them rather than answer those questions. Well, there is some anger there and rightfully so.
Val....give it a break!
On the third day she is still ranting....Now you're preaching to the choir! Just like "Yosaurian" we are sane in a crazy world! What else do you expect? Your point is made, now let it go!
Ps-prefered a smite instead.
:laugh:
Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 04:10:20 PM
Miniar has made an excellent post.
However...
Val brings up some solid counter points. (imho)
It is however a catch 22 as far as I can tell.
Folks see black and white. If SRS is optional for some trans people then they will surmise that it is optional for all of us.
I have been here since June, and not once have I seen a non op or a pre op say to a Post Op that they did not believe them when they say it was needed for them.
On the other hand, I have seen countless of posts of People questioning a non op or a pre op as a true trans simply because they(the non op or preop) believed SRS is a choice for themselves.
So, I don't think it's a catch 22 and I haven't seen a non or pre op questioning the legitimacy of a trans because she felt the need for SRS.
Quote
But I do think that because SRS is optional for some of us, there are those who will consider it optional for all of us.
Again, I have only seen it the other way around. If you can post me some links on non and pre ops questioning a post op sincerity of being a really real transsexual woman because she had SRS with the need to have it done, I would gladly admit my assumptions as being wrong.
QuotePersonaly when I read Annah post that for her SRS is optional and she is getting it anyways, I lost it.
To me SRS is a life afirming and vital surgery for my sanity and quality of life. I am stuck in a perpetual state of hell. I can not imagine SRS to be optional. I dont understand how it can be optional at all.
No one is asking you to accept it. Nor even understand it. However, you have to respect it. And it goes the other way around.
Quote from: Annah on October 16, 2011, 06:26:55 PM
Again, I have only seen it the other way around. If you can post me some links on non and pre ops questioning a post op sincerity of being a really real transsexual woman because she had SRS with the need to have it done, I would gladly admit my assumptions as being wrong.
This part of your post made no sense when compared to the part of my text you quoted.
My point was that I fear that society at large is going to see SRS as optional for all transpeople because it is optional for some people. It is no fault of anyone here on this site. It is human nature that people seek one size fits all cures.
If society at large believes that SRS is cosmetic then they will never be willing to have it payed for on most insurance plans.
Obviously for some of us it is a choice. You are a prime example. The genie is out of the bottle.
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 16, 2011, 05:57:56 PM
Well, there have been many things left out of this discussion but none of us will persuade the other, thats for sure. So why bother. I do have some questions for those of you declaring women's surgery is a choice and wish to vent some myself, since this is the vent forum and the purpose of this thread.
When someone vents the same exact thing for their entire current account post count, it gets really really old. You present your argument then you say you are leaving. Then you repeat this process for two straight days. Seriously, if someone looked at your post history on this account I wonder what the percentage is of your posts talking about this same issue.
You are effectively beating a dead horse when you post the same thing again and again and again and again.
QuoteI do not nor ever will understand the premise that women's SRS is a choice and not a medical intervention.
I think we pretty much understand that.
QuoteAnnah, you still have not stated why you are having SRS, if it is not needed? Please let us know why you are correcting your body? Why do you want a binary body (not need, according to you) ...to correct it, maybe, so that it is congruent? To have a functional part that matches your identity? It sounds hypocritical that you are having surgery denied by others and calling it a choice, you dont really need it. Many women here who cannot get surgery, except lucky you. And here you are telling them that it is a choice. That doesnt make them feel too good, Im sure. I had a PM this evening from a woman in tears on reading what you wrote, because she needs it and cannot have it. She wrote in despair and grief over what you wrote. A member here.
First of all you are in NO position or authority to dictate morality to me. Let's get that out int he open shall we? Your pretentious "innocent" posting to hide your spiteful comments does not work on me.
Now, that we have that part settled.
Yes. I chose to get SRS. You REALLY need to get over it. I UNDERSTAND that some people HAVE to have SRS.
You are asking why I want SRS? Considering the nature of the surgery it is not difficult to figure out "why." Also, I stated it in a post earlier in this thread. Reread it please.
Nowhere did I state it was a CHOICE for everyone. Again, Reread my earlier post. If it doesn't make sense to you, reread one more time.
QuoteFor you FtM people to argue that a woman's surgery is optional is reprehensible. A surgery that can provide a fully functional vagina to correct their body. If you cannot desire that functioning body to your female peers, what does that say about you? Why are you weighing in on women's surgery?
Grow up. No one said that. You're twisting words again.
Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 06:36:16 PM
This part of your post made no sense when compared to the part of my text you quoted.
My point was that I fear that society at large is going to see SRS as optional for all transpeople because it is optional for some people. It is no fault of anyone here on this site. It is human nature that people seek one size fits all cures.
If society at large believes that SRS is cosmetic then they will never be willing to have it payed for on most insurance plans.
Obviously for some of us it is a choice. You are a prime example. The genie is out of the bottle.
Ill repost it for you
no i dont think so.
They asked very little questions about it because I am covered. They only asked who I was having the surgery with, checked to see if it fell in their policy coverage area, asked about aftercare, etc. They never asked me "so do you HAVE to have this or is it just one of those things. Based on my therapy reports sent to them, they knew it was a choice for me.
And insurance companies do realize the fact that SRS is necessary and a must for some trans people so they aren't going to judge coverage on a person by person basis in the US if you fall under corporate coverage guidelines of have the coverage in your contract.
If SRS is covered at your company and you meet the requirements of the insurance company for SRS (which they use WPATH) then you will have the surgery.
I worked at Liberty Mutual. I seen the behind the scenes of this.
The only thing you have to really fight for is disability insurance coverage if your company has it because many disability companies has srs listed as an elective and some do not (depending on your company's contract of disability insurance)....which is different than medical insurance.
Live and let live always.
Otherwise:
"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."
As transsexual and transgender people we are high on any eventual lists. Do not ever kid ourselves regarding that. Others of us also happen to be Jews, Muslims, Communists, and so on which can only make things far worse of course.
Solidarity is all, without it we are well and truly truly ->-bleeped-<-ed.
Grow the ->-bleeped-<- up, FFS.
still doesnt adress the part I quoted in the context of the part I was quoted in...
Ontario's public healthcare system covers SRS. It does not require all transsexual women to undergo the procedure, nor is the procedure recommended in all cases. That's what optional means - required for some, but not others. Optional is not the same as elective.
That social conservative ->-bleeped-<-s use non-ops to argue against coverage is neither here nor there. If there were no non-ops they'd find something else to bitch at us about.
Quote from: Annah on October 16, 2011, 06:26:55 PM
I have been here since June, and not once have I seen a non op or a pre op say to a Post Op that they did not believe them when they say it was needed for them.
I'm a pre-op, but I've had a non-op tell me that, and more recently than June. There is plenty of blame to go around.
Quote from: Sarah7 on October 16, 2011, 07:00:03 PM
Ontario's public healthcare system covers SRS. It does not require all transsexual women to undergo the procedure, nor is the procedure recommended in all cases. That's what optional means - required for some, but not others. Optional is not the same as elective.
That social conservative ->-bleeped-<-s use non-ops to argue against coverage is neither here nor there. If there were no non-ops they'd find something else to bitch at us about.
I'm a pre-op, but I've had a non-op tell me that, and more recently than June. There is plenty of blame to go around.
If a non op has said to you, they are just as ignorant as the ones who say the opposite. Sorry you had to go through that.
And many of you seem to be missing the distinction between 'optional' and 'elective'..
Quote from: kelly_aus on October 16, 2011, 07:32:04 PM
And many of you seem to be missing the distinction between 'optional' and 'elective'..
enlighten me
Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 08:12:31 PM
enlighten me
Optional means you do not need the surgery but for preventative measure or to avoid distress in the future, insurance will cover this surgery procedure. An example is a deviated septum or your tonsils.
An elective surgery means that the surgery is not needed under average conditions and will not be covered as one does not HAVE to have the surgery to make themselves healthier. An example of this is botox injections and plastic surgery for the sole purpose to look more attractive per the patients' viewpoints (not to be confused with plastic surgery needed to reconstruct surfaces damaged from birth defects or accidents.
That is the difference between Optional and Elective. And this is the reason why SRS is covered who has the coverage whether or not one feels the need to have to get SRS or sees it as a choice and still wishes to get it done.
I liked reading Miniar's original post. It's good to hear that this problem is being discussed.
For the record, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on whether SRS is necessary or optional for a transwoman.
I do know that top surgery for me is not optional. Having breasts seriously interferes with my quality of life, and impairs my functioning as a productive adult in our society. Science and medicine are pretty much on board with the fact that sometimes surgical modification is necessary. Societal acceptance of that fact or any other regarding transsexuals will come slowly.
I also feel like the difference between necessary and optional is getting hyped up a bit much. My insurance won't pay for some necessary things and will pay for some optional things. I spent years paying for a surgery for my daughter that saved her life, and the fact that it was officially "necessary" didn't make the bill collectors more understanding. I had a bone sticking out the side of my foot once, and even with coverage it took me a few days to get surgery approved and arranged, and by then it was infected.
Whether or not a person needs something often has no bearing on whether or not they can get it.
Quote from: Annah on October 16, 2011, 08:21:16 PM
Optional means you do not need the surgery but for preventative measure or to avoid distress in the future, insurance will cover this surgery procedure. An example is a deviated septum or your tonsils.
An elective surgery means that the surgery is not needed under average conditions and will not be covered as one does not HAVE to have the surgery to make themselves healthier. An example of this is botox injections and plastic surgery for the sole purpose to look more attractive per the patients' viewpoints (not to be confused with plastic surgery needed to reconstruct surfaces damaged from birth defects or accidents.
That is the difference between Optional and Elective. And this is the reason why SRS is covered who has the coverage whether or not one feels the need to have to get SRS or sees it as a choice and still wishes to get it done.
Pretty much what I was going to say, but so much more eloquently..
And yeah, for my purposes I'm not differentiating between optional and elective. Medicaid often doesn't either. I don't when I'm paying out of pocket. Preventative medicine is cheaper and smarter in the long run, but often just isn't on the table.
Quote from: kelly_aus on October 16, 2011, 08:40:53 PM
Pretty much what I was going to say, but so much more eloquently..
it's from years of working with a Medical Insurance Company lol.
Whether or not a person needs something often has no bearing on whether or not they can get it.
True that.
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 16, 2011, 05:57:56 PMFor you FtM people to argue that a woman's surgery is optional is reprehensible.
"You FTM people?" Thank you. That makes me feel so included and welcomed.
I just took another look at this thread up to the point where you said this, and I found exactly three posts by FTMs. One of them was mine.
Not a single one says anything NEAR what you just posted here. I sure ask heck didn't. If you think that I did, or that Silver or Miniar did, then you need to reread their posts until you see what they actually said.
Dear, sweet, beautiful Valerie...I don't want to fight, but I think that in some cases, you might be seeing things that aren't there. So I'm calling you on this.
Sometimes I start reading a book or article, and I have a preconception about the work that interferes with my accurate reading. I try not to do this, but it happens occasionally; maybe someone told me about the book, and that got me off on the wrong foot. As I'm reading, I unconsciously omit a word here or there so that the text meets my expectations, but eventually I realize that the person is saying something other than what I expected them to say. I have to start over and read more carefully, without preconceptions. At some point, I realize that I went in with a bias.
Maybe that is what you're doing, Valerie. I can see that this issue is hurting you, big time. I am sorry for that. But I don't think everyone is saying what you think they're saying. A few might be, but most aren't. And you seem to think that most are. You zoom in on the FTMs here. Did they/we really say what you are claiming? Where? Please take another look.
I don't think you're the type of person to intentionally misunderstand someone. I don't think you're the type of person to pretend that someone said something they didn't. I think you're hurting so much that you're unintentionally misreading posts and finding enemies where there are none. If they're being pretty clear in their writing, then the misinterpretation is on you.
And, forgive me, but it would really help if you didn't lump "you FTM people" into one giant conglomerate mess when you want to challenge our ideas We are all different, and we say different things. If you want to challenge or discuss what a particular FTM said, then please be specific about who he is, and quote him directly.
I find it sadly amusing that a post by Miniar complaining about lack of understanding and respect degenerates into the exact thread he was complaining about. Miniar is a man I have worked with and have enormous respect for the way he presents himself and his opinions. When he speaks, his words are carefully thought through.
I think most of the people on the thread know me pretty well. I think I'm well tolerated. We need to understand the concept of a difference in opinion. All of us. Sometimes a difference in opinion needs to be rested until a logical argument can be thought through and presented. Shouting louder does not change the view; it increases the noise. I see validity in all the arguments, but that does not settle differences in view point. Possibly there is no solution to such discussion, that does not invalidate the discussion, but it rings warning bells that we may need to agree to disagree. There is nothing wrong in that. It is pretty normal really.
I have become quite upset by a number of recent posts. There seems to be a discord, not particularly in this thread, but in several threads where people seem to be more interested in trading insults than valid discussion. I know it tends to go in cycles but it is annoying.
My ten cents worth
Cindy
Lol but at least he called it, right? He knew it would probably go this way. :P
Not to make light of it. We shouldn't fight.
I agree Cindy
I've been watching this thread and the others Miniar was talking about lately but haven't had much to say. Now I do.
I am good friends with a girl who is on the fence between genderqueer and MTF. Her and I do not always see eye to eye on things because she has the view that society needs to learn to accept us and we shouldn't be afraid to be ourselves. In many ways I agree with that but disagree because I know that while they should learn to in the meantime they don't. We agree to disagree usually like Cindy sorta suggested.
It's great that some guys and gals have managed to get their surgery covered even if they could live without it. In some ways I'm a little jealous but in other ways I'm glad that they can be comfortable with that, I wish I could be too. Some people cannot do surgery for family reasons, health reasons, money reasons, and other ones. Who are we to judge them as less trans? (Not saying anyone here did, just have kinda seen that tone lately) I just don't understand why anyone has to fight about it.
I loved this forum from the second I found it because many of you have become a second family to me. You were all here when I needed someone to help me. So not to sound like the stereotypical middle child (anyone ever seen Charmed? I sorta feel like a male version of Piper from while Prue was still around) but really guys, can't we just get along? I love seeing the debates, I love hearing everyones opinions but must we fight about it?
BTW Miniar, dude you're awesome. Seriously.
Quote from: Felix on October 17, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
Lol but at least he called it, right? He knew it would probably go this way. :P
Not to make light of it. We shouldn't fight.
Sorry Felix I don't follow your comment?
BTW how is your daughter? Worried.
Cindy
There's in fighting?
We all have different views. I apologize right now if I got heavy handed with my opinions on hair and cosmetics. Many people have a different perspective than I do and I need to respect that.
I thought my post was in the spirit of what Miniar wanted. It went downhill fast, though. Hugs, Tracey
Cindy I was just was chuckling a little because Miniar did say "I know I'm quite probably going to see more of it as a response to this post," and then yes people got a little bickery later in the thread. I also tried to clarify that I didn't find the conflicts themselves funny.
And my daughter is not well. She's calmer, not hallucinating or hitting so much, but the drugs make her look like she's carrying a heavy weight around all the time. She's sad and tired, and she wants to come home. I told her if they didn't discharge her by Halloween that I'd just check her out. She's been looking forward to it for months. She wants to be a princess.
It looks like her school won't take her back, so I have to call around and find a day treatment facility when she is released. It's all confusing and scary, and I'm still not really used to the idea that this is serious and real and permanent.
What movie scene comes to mind here....
2001-Space Odessy!
HAL 9000: "Dave, I really think you should take a stress pill, and sit down and think about this for awhile"...
Please Val!
Quote from: SandraJane on October 17, 2011, 06:49:23 AM
What movie scene comes to mind here....
2001-Space Odessy!
HAL 9000: "Dave, I really think you should take a stress pill, and sit down and think about this for awhile"...
Please Val!
Yes, I should :)
Everyone should be providing counseling to members that desire to willingly cut off their body parts for no valid reason, just as a choice. It is not the intended purpose of womens SRS, which is to improve those womens lives. I am pretty sure it is not ethical for a surgeon to operate for no valid medical reason. They could lose their license or be sued for malpractice.
It is also harmful to the patient with the risks involved and also for the potential for regret. This decision affects not only the patient themselves but the entire transsexual female community. If the public perceives SRS as simply a choice, sentiment would turn against all of us.
It is also a risk of life and death. People die from this surgery.
Fighting is not intrinsicaly bad.
It gets 'it' out.
Negative emotions and arguements are part of the human experiance. To avoid confrontation at all costs is to avaoid part of the human existance at all costs.
Not healthy.
It is far better that we should scream until we are blue in the face and exhausted from the argument than it is to cut short the critisism and to leave a festering boil of anger unadressed.
No blood has been drawn and no bruises have formed. It is good that we get it out in this fashion.
Quote from: cynthialee on October 17, 2011, 07:48:40 AM
It is far better that we should scream until we are blue in the face and exhausted from the argument than it is to cut short the critisism and to leave a festering boil of anger unadressed.
No blood has been drawn and no bruises have formed. It is good that we get it out in this fashion.
This gets my vote for Post Of The Month. +1
I agree. All of the arguing is annoying, but it is better than not arguing.
Trust me when I say that most women here do not just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I want a vagina now. I think I'll go get surgery!" This seems to be what you're implying. To be honest it all amounts to variances in the levels of dysphoria that these women (and men) feel. Some feel that they cannot live without the surgery. Others feel that they would feel more comfortable and correct with the surgery, but due to things like money or family or health or fear, it's not their top priority.
While it may not be their top priority, the surgery may still be very important to them. There is still a valid reason for them to get it, and that is the fact (or in some rare cases, opinion) that they will feel corrected with it. On the other hand, some may feel that life itself among other things are more important than the surgery, due to things like money, family, health, or even fear. Some may feel completely comfortable and at peace without having to change their privates. Just because someone is comfortable with their body does not mean that they are less of a man or woman than someone who is not. Just because someone does not have surgery as their top priority does not make them less of a man or a woman than someone that does. It also does not give either the right to criticize or label the other.
As for undermining the efforts for transsexuality and SRS to be recognized as something that's not a choice, I don't know about you but I certainly don't want the public thinking that every transgendered person HAS to get SRS. That's just as close-minded as saying that every Jew pinches pennies, or every Mexican in the US is illegal. If we want the public to perceive us as real and treat us with proper equality and respect, we have to fight for ALL sides. Not just for the side of people who need to have SRS to live. Not just for the side of people who do not have SRS as a top priority. Not just for the people who feel they do not need SRS ever. We must fight for all sides to truly be called equal and to truly be taken seriously.
Education is our weapon in this fight, unity is our armor. We have to stick together or we'll be shred to pieces. If this means I have to at least respect another person's viewpoint even if I don't understand it, then so be it. That's pretty much the entire point of the fight for trans-equality: to have people respect us even though they do not understand us. To make them understand would be impossible, because to understand is to experience. Respect is the least we can ask of them. Respect is the least you can ask of me. Respect is the least I can ask of you.
That's my two cents anyway.
Here is the Medical Necessity Statement from WPATH.
Medical Necessity Statement (http://www.wpath.org/medical_necessity_statement.cfm)
QuoteThe medical procedures attendant to sex reassignment are not "cosmetic" or "elective" or for the mere convenience of the patient. These reconstructive procedures are not optional in any meaningful sense, but are understood to be medically necessary for the treatment of the diagnosed condition.
Any discussion of SRS as a CHOICE is simply crazy talk. I'm sorry, but it has to be said.
Take it up with WPATH if you think SRS is a CHOICE or optional. As the statement says, it is not for the convenience of the patient or elective. It is a necessity. Those that have been through it understand and are simply trying to explain that.
This official statement document from WPATH also includes the following, which many of you are saying and is recognized.
QuoteGenital reconstruction is not required for social gender recognition, and such surgery should not be a prerequisite for document or record changes
Val brings up a good point with that WPATH referance.
Quote from: cynthialee on October 17, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
Val brings up a good point with that WPATH referance.
Someone will just try to claim it is an argumentum ad verecundiam, and then we will be COMPLETELY back to square one.
Trust me, this is not an argument that can end. The only way this argument will end is if both sides come to a compromise, or if social conditions change in a way which makes one side of the argument obsolete.
calling someone insane because they feel SRS is a choice for them is inexcusable. I don't care what part of the forums this thread is in.
Face it folks, on certain issues we will NEVER agree, we come from diametrically opposite thought patterns.
Living with GID is a delicate situation. Take me for an example (don't burn me on the following comments, please):
I have GID, I have had it since youth. I'm old and did not have the advantage of the internet when I grew up. Once I did become aware I realized surgery was the correct (and only option for me).
Problem is, I have diabetes, high blood pressure, heart problems, etc. I talked with a surgeon and he said my medical issues preclude me from getting this surgery, he considered it too dangerous. (I had to go through stress tests and other things before a surgeon would even repair a torn muscle in my shoulder).
I don't (and can't) understand the people who feel surgery is optional and not a necessity, but if I follow through with these feelings the only option for me is death. I have had to fight suicidal tendenicies over this for most of my adult life (from the first time a surgeon said no right through until today). Its a daily battle to maintain my balance and just live as the woman I am.
There are a couple of battles that have been going on at Susan's since my first day here, Stealth vs non-Stealth and Post/Non/Pre OP. Blood has been spilled over these issues. If we are ever going to stop the bad feelings, people leaving over feeling unwelcome and just general unrest, we Have to start trying to accept that not everyone is going to agree with out Opinions and we need to give them space to disagree.
We will never beat others into submission and that should not be our desire. Learn from each other and be willing to call it a DRAW once in a while.
Quote from: Annah on October 17, 2011, 10:29:10 AM
calling someone insane because they feel SRS is a choice for them is inexcusable. I don't care what part of the forums this thread is in.
It is impossible to question anouther persons veracity and mental stablity without bringing offense to the person questioned.
In such a seting as a forum to discuss and support others in such a delicate subject as the matter at hand one must expect that a certain amount of aspersions may be cast in ones direction.
Quote from: cynthialee on October 17, 2011, 10:41:28 AM
It is impossible to question anouther persons veracity and mental stablity without bringing offense to the person questioned.
In such a seting as a forum to discuss and support others in such a delicate subject as the matter at hand one must expect that a certain amount of aspersions may be cast in ones direction.
When someone calls me insane because I am having SRS as a choice there is no damn excuse for that. I do not care where it was said. It's wrong.
If someone does not understand why I am having surgery, then that's fine. But when someone has the audacity to question's ones mental wellbeing because of it; it's wrong. Plain and Simple.
Once again, the cycle of arguments goes around and around and around....
Did I say, anywhere, at any time, that sexual reassignment surgery is a choice or is optional?
No, I didn't.
But that doesn't mean that it is, by it's very nature, absolutely 100% mandatory either.
That's where the problem lies.
Just because I can live without srs does not make me a woman. Just because I can live with my vagina doesn't make me a woman any more than having been born with one.
THE DEFINITION OF WOMAN IS NOT VAGINA!
Is this really so bloody hard to understand?
It's not about whether or not SRS is or isn't fundamentally a choice, it's about the fact that it can be, for some, possible to be themselves without srs while others may feel they need it to be remotely comfortable in their own skin.
It's absolutely, 100% necessary for some, but not all.
THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANY LESS MEN OR WOMEN!¨
Yes, for most of us, "if" it were possible to have a 100% guaranteed result of a 100% fully functional set of genitals, we'd all jump at the chance, but let's face it, there's no 100% guarantee, there's no 100% fully functional, and there's a lot of pain, a lot of cost, and considerable risk of losing more than just a little.
You know this, you've been here a while, you've seen girls post of their third or fourth revision, eventually giving up on the hope of ever feeling content with what surgery has brought them.
We do have a choice, I don't care what WPATH says, no one can physically force us to have any surgery of any kind against our wills. We can "choose" not to accept a medically necessary heart transplant. We can "choose" not to undergo medically necessary cancer treatments. Therefore we can "choose" not to have SRS.
Those of us who choose not to have SRS don't do so because we're "crazy" but because when we're faced with the cost (fiscal, physical and mental) as well as the risks, and we weigh that against our own personal level of dysphoria regarding the downstairs area and the results we can theoretically expect in a "best case" scenario, we find that in our own personal position, as it is, at least for the time being, the surgery is not something we're willing to go through with.
This doesn't mean that it was a simple choice for other people, in other positions, with other personal backgrounds and so on.
It doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone.
It doesn't mean it's cosmetic or even "elective".
It means quite simply that my body will be altered to suit my needs. MY NEEDS!
Not yours, not some other persons, MY NEEDS!
It doesn't change what your needs were any less "needs".
It means that I am not you.
It's very simple.
I am not you.
Here's the only thing I want from you.
Stop dictating my identity, stop dictating my transition, and stop othering me.
That's it!
I know there are hurt feelings on these issues.
WPATH's statement is clear however we feel about it. The statement includes mastectomines, hystorectomies
QuoteMedically necessary sex reassignment procedures also include complete hysterectomy, bilateral mastectomy, chest reconstruction or augmentation as appropriate to each patient (including breast prostheses if necessary), genital reconstruction (by various techniques which must be appropriate to each patient, including, for example, skin flap hair removal, penile and testicular prostheses, as necessary), facial hair removal, and certain facial plastic reconstruction as appropriate to the patient.
They are all considered medically necessary procedures and not cosmetic or elective.
p.s.
My comment earlier about insane was particular about the position of CHOICE vs Necessity. It would be questionable to allow a surgery that was not medically necessary. Of course I do not desire anyone have surgery that does not need it. I had it and dont wish that event on anyone where it wasnt needed.
A reminder to refrain from personal attacks! Everyone does what is right for themselves. Only that person knows what is right for them and their situation.
Z - Admin
I totally agree that everyone's path is their own.
People have to get over the fact that everyone is not the same. Plain and simple. People seriously need to come to peace with that.
People can quote WPATH until the entire document is here. It will not matter to some others.
What the reasons why I am getting surgery is my reasons alone. People have no business to judge me on the merits why I am getting it nor is it their place to psycho analyze why I am getting it done. None of you who judges me on this thread holds Certification in gender Psychology. Keep the pretentious diagnosis to those trained and certified only.
I share my trans history to people I trust and to people I am close to. Those I do not share it with are not in that circle of people so I owe no explanation of the how and why of my surgery.
I don't care if others disagree. I don't care if others cannot understand it to save their life, but what I care is that people respect other people's own paths and own journeys. To judge someone else is to show their very own weaknesses.
Please no more posts directed at Individuals, only at the topic.
If what i wrote is read carefully it can be seen that i called willingly cutting off a body part is insane. Nowhere did i call any individual an insult.
Can anyone honestly say it is a sane thing to cut off your body as a choice?
How am i insulting anyone?
I was responding to what was written, not making any personal attacks. There is no need to demonize me.
Who here will cut off their arm or hand? Cmon, please. We are all adults here and simply having a conversation.
Why cant it be conceded that it is necessary for that person and not a choice without a group attacking me.
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 17, 2011, 12:22:29 PM
If what i wrote is read carefully it can be seen that i called willingly cutting off a body part is insane.
Here of all places, I would hope we could refrain from describing MTF operation as "cutting off a body part". We all know that to not be the case. Describing it as such is inflammatory language, the likes of what I see when posting news blogs from the extreme religious right wing.
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on October 17, 2011, 12:55:43 PM
Here of all places, I would hope we could refrain from describing MTF operation as "cutting off a body part". We all know that to not be the case. Describing it as such is inflammatory language, the likes of what I see when posting news blogs from the extreme religious right wing.
Z
+1
Quote from: Miniar on October 17, 2011, 10:50:52 AM
Once again, the cycle of arguments goes around and around and around....
Did I say, anywhere, at any time, that sexual reassignment surgery is a choice or is optional?
No, I didn't.
But that doesn't mean that it is, by it's very nature, absolutely 100% mandatory either.
That's where the problem lies.
Just because I can live without srs does not make me a woman. Just because I can live with my vagina doesn't make me a woman any more than having been born with one.
THE DEFINITION OF WOMAN IS NOT VAGINA!
Is this really so bloody hard to understand?
It's not about whether or not SRS is or isn't fundamentally a choice, it's about the fact that it can be, for some, possible to be themselves without srs while others may feel they need it to be remotely comfortable in their own skin.
It's absolutely, 100% necessary for some, but not all.
THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANY LESS MEN OR WOMEN!¨
Yes, for most of us, "if" it were possible to have a 100% guaranteed result of a 100% fully functional set of genitals, we'd all jump at the chance, but let's face it, there's no 100% guarantee, there's no 100% fully functional, and there's a lot of pain, a lot of cost, and considerable risk of losing more than just a little.
You know this, you've been here a while, you've seen girls post of their third or fourth revision, eventually giving up on the hope of ever feeling content with what surgery has brought them.
We do have a choice, I don't care what WPATH says, no one can physically force us to have any surgery of any kind against our wills. We can "choose" not to accept a medically necessary heart transplant. We can "choose" not to undergo medically necessary cancer treatments. Therefore we can "choose" not to have SRS.
Those of us who choose not to have SRS don't do so because we're "crazy" but because when we're faced with the cost (fiscal, physical and mental) as well as the risks, and we weigh that against our own personal level of dysphoria regarding the downstairs area and the results we can theoretically expect in a "best case" scenario, we find that in our own personal position, as it is, at least for the time being, the surgery is not something we're willing to go through with.
This doesn't mean that it was a simple choice for other people, in other positions, with other personal backgrounds and so on.
It doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone.
It doesn't mean it's cosmetic or even "elective".
It means quite simply that my body will be altered to suit my needs. MY NEEDS!
Not yours, not some other persons, MY NEEDS!
It doesn't change what your needs were any less "needs".
It means that I am not you.
It's very simple.
I am not you.
Here's the only thing I want from you.
Stop dictating my identity, stop dictating my transition, and stop othering me.
That's it!
Nail on the head.
At the end of the day what's being argued about here is conformity to a series of norms and as such the issue is sociological and political. Leaving aside gender, srs and all the rest for a minute this very same discussion could be about one's political or religious beliefs or even the use of skin lightening creams.
We haven't all been socialised in the same manner, some us have very different political views regarding conformity in the wider sense and society in general. Personally I couldn't care less what anyone wants to do with their 'bits' but I do care very much that they are allowed to do whatever they wish so long as no one is hurt by their actions.
Neither a man nor a woman nor anyone in between should be judged by what they have in their underwear, their appearance, their ethnic origin, religious belief, age, sexual orientation and so on... Live and let live and back off judging people and projecting crap onto others.
There are far more important issues in this world of ours than arguing over whether a trans person should have srs, should desire to have srs or couldn't care less about it. If we really want to resolve these issues society itself needs to change and we need to aim for a day when gender difference is no big deal and of course free health care is available to all.
We have been brainwashed into accepting we are somehow wrong. Yes, according to the American Psychiatric Society we have a psychiatric disorder and some of us even want to let that stand so as to access privatised health care. Well, ->-bleeped-<- that. I don't give a monkey's what the APS think, I'm not even American so who the hell are they to tell me I have a disorder! The issue here is that we don't have a disorder, it's just one big scam linked to their own self importance and privatised healthcare. Free healthcare for all, worldwide is the solution. The money IS there, swords into ploughshares as the saying goes...
Don't argue about this petty stuff FFS, get out there and change our thieving lying systems of government if you have this much energy. We are human beings equal to anyone else in this world, do not let anyone ever tell you otherwise.
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 17, 2011, 12:22:29 PM
If what i wrote is read carefully it can be seen that i called willingly cutting off a body part is insane. Nowhere did i call any individual an insult.
Can anyone honestly say it is a sane thing to cut off your body as a choice?
How am i insulting anyone?
I was responding to what was written, not making any personal attacks. There is no need to demonize me.
Who here will cut off their arm or hand? Cmon, please. We are all adults here and simply having a conversation.
Why cant it be conceded that it is necessary for that person and not a choice without a group attacking me.
This Infighting Gets Us Nothing!
I suggest at this point Valerie that you start another thread to continue your postings concerning Sanity, SRS, and what's in your coffee.
Quote from: Zythyra on October 17, 2011, 12:55:43 PM
Here of all places, I would hope we could refrain from describing MTF operation as "cutting off a body part". We all know that to not be the case. Describing it as such is inflammatory language, the likes of what I see when posting news blogs from the extreme religious right wing.
Z
Really? DO you not know what women's SRS is? They remove the penis and testicles. How is that inflammatory. I had it done. If anyone knows it is me. Did you or anyone in this thread have that done? I think
I am the only here that has had that physically done. They cut it off with a scalpel.
To say it is a CHOICE, is asking for what is not needed. Why can that not be conceded in this debate?
Quote from: Zythyra on October 17, 2011, 12:55:43 PM
Here of all places, I would hope we could refrain from describing MTF operation as "cutting off a body part". We all know that to not be the case. Describing it as such is inflammatory language, the likes of what I see when posting news blogs from the extreme religious right wing.
Z
Exactly. Every grouping tends to have a right wing and this is the sh*t we are dealing with here.
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 17, 2011, 01:03:13 PM
Really? DO you not know what women's SRS is? They remove the penis and testicles. How is that inflammatory. I had it done. If anyone knows it is me. Did you or anyone in this thread have that done? I think I am the only here that has had that physically done. They cut it off with a scalpel.
To say it is a CHOICE, is asking for what is not needed. Why can that not be conceded in this debate?
Valerie...this topic is about Infighting Gets Us Nothing, you have now created a new topic concerning SRS/GRS/GCS and Choice. That would give you another topic and be on track with said topic. Now its off track, time for you to start another one.
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 17, 2011, 01:07:05 PM
Give me a break. None of you have had this surgery.
What surgery?
I've had a splenectomy, have you?
Everyone, give me a break.
We have been having this fight for months and we have gotten nowhere. No Where at all, still at square one.
It doesn't do any good to "lock" a thread, someone just gives it a new title and starts all over. Haven't we learned yet to just realize we are not going to agree.
We are a "community" because society lumps us together because we are different. But each group of us here have different issues and realities.
All opinions deserve equal treatment. Take a step back, regroup and make an attempt to see the other peoples side of things, without taking offense.
Quote from: mimpi on October 17, 2011, 01:03:53 PM
Exactly. Every grouping tends to have a right wing and this is the sh*t we are dealing with here.
Why are personal attacks against me allowed to be said? This is the 3rd time you have attacked me personally along with a smite. Why do I anger you so much?
Why am I moderated yet these attacks are allowed to stand? I am not a right winger. I am an elder of this community. I am someone who sacrificed everything for my identity. And yet, this faction or group here with their particular social viewpoint is allowed to freely attack me.
If you bothered to actually read what I wrote, you would see that I have never attacked anyone.
Quote from: mimpi on October 17, 2011, 01:12:55 PM
What surgery?
I've had a splenectomy, have you?
You are an anarchist enjoying baiting me. We are talking about womens SRS. Have you read any of this discussion?
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 17, 2011, 01:03:13 PM
Really? DO you not know what women's SRS is? They remove the penis and testicles. How is that inflammatory. I had it done. If anyone knows it is me. Did you or anyone in this thread have that done? I think I am the only here that has had that physically done. They cut it off with a scalpel.
To say it is a CHOICE, is asking for what is not needed. Why can that not be conceded in this debate?
Yes Val, I fully know the details of what MTF SRS is, and how much it costs, having researched it due to profound gender dysphoria. I chose not to proceed, for the time being, given my circumstances. At some point I might make a different choice, if and when it feels correct to do so.
Some at Susan's see surgery as a choice, and some don't. I understand you did what was right for you. That doesn't make it right for someone else.
Z
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 17, 2011, 01:15:29 PM
You are an anarchist enjoying baiting me. We are talking about womens SRS. Have you read any of this discussion?
Lol! Get it right: I'm a communist not an anarchist, my dear ;D
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 17, 2011, 12:22:29 PM
Who here will cut off their arm or hand?
I like my hand. Why would I want to cut it off?
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 17, 2011, 01:26:34 PM
I like my hand. Why would I want to cut it off?
You might want to give someone a hand?
> hides...
Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 17, 2011, 01:03:13 PM
I think I am the only [one] here that has had that physically done.
Mmm, not necessarily.
There are some others here who chose to have it done.
Quote from: Renate on October 17, 2011, 01:40:15 PM
Mmm, not necessarily.
There are some others here who chose to have it done.
I was referring to the people in the discussion.
she was referring to the people in the discussion
You are all so unkind. My posts were always concerning the topics of discussion.
I see that I truly do not belong here.
Having read most of this thread and having made my decision 12 years ago about my genital rearrangement, my comment on the whole subject is:
WHO CARES WHAT YOU DO?
Some of us wish to have our bodies congruent with our minds. Others can't or don't see the need to.
WHO CARES?
Arguing about what is a very personal decision that belongs to one person does not change that person's decision; so why bother?
WHO CARES?
The right wingers and religious fundies care. They will use any form of internal dissent to discredit us and to label us as crazies.
So lets lighten up, shall we?
Robyn