or you will not be saved.
I've heard these words from born again family members and friends alike. I didn't get it then and I don't get it now. It just doesn't wash.
So if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell? That's pretty much what I've been told by those who recite that to me.
That means if I live life giving and caring for others, if I love and help others, if my heart is good and I do good, I'll still go to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. That really seems lame.
Bear with me if I offended your ego. It wasn't intended.
I believe God loves us unconditionally. I believe we were put here for a specific reason and we were given certain burdens to carry to help us find our purpose here. I believe in life after death and I believe I will be judged by how I lived my life here.
But I have a problem with this whole believing Christ is the son of God threat. I don't think God is so narrow minded or egotistical that She would say that. That's not the God I know.
Julie
I think faith in god is enough. I also do not believe in hell. I think there are many paths to god and jesus is simply one of them. Take the good, discard the bad, and live your life. Don't worry about the rest :)
Your born again friends and family members are completely devoid of any real understanding of what the purpose of life (to be happy, to love, to further the interests of humanity) actually is. They are not at your level of thinking yet. Believe it.
It does not matter to me whether or not Christ was the son of God. Every human being is a son or daughter of God, directly. The question becomes, then, who or what is God? I once said that if God does exist, it is at the center of the universe. Given the way space-time is curved, there is no real center to the universe: every single point in the universe is the center at any given time. Knowing this, it's my belief that mankind, with its incredible imagination and drive, is God, in a sense.
Collectively, we are a force that has the power to bend the universe to our will. Anything is possible because of our imagination, and we grow more advanced every day.
You're right. It doesn't make sense that you would go to Hell if you're a good person. I don't believe God cares about religious semantics, though. Some say scientists (which I am to a degree) are egotistical because they place so much esteem in man's abilities. I believe the religious are egotistical because they actually think they have the capacity to interpret the will of God, which takes on many forms, but remains fundamentally the same.
God, as it were, is the heartbeat of any living human being. God is love, God is understanding, God is forgiving, God is caring for your fellow humans. Your religious friends and family are the ones doomed to a Hell constructed by their own narrow-minded, primitive thinking until they can break free of their egos and realize the true purpose of life.
God is all things that bring humanity closer to enlightenment and peace. Believe it.
~ Blair
Please.
Psychologically this is a defense mechanism known as projection. THESE Christians can only understand the world through their myopic worldview. They project their own fears and insecurities onto others. Transsexuals don't fit into their lens, therefore they are damned - the only terms in which Christians can make sense of information.
Psychologically people don't like information they can't understand. It makes them feel stupid, which is mentally distressing. So, they limit the reasoning chain into a heuristic - an emotional shortcut. Jesus or not Jesus. It doesn't have the benifit of having any information, but it does have emotion - which is psychologically more persuasive.
I just ignore such nonsense, especially when it's coming from such a nakedly myopic mind.
Bri
Quote from: Brianna on March 03, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Christians can only understand the world through their myopic worldview. They project their own fears and insecurities onto others. Transsexuals don't fit into their lens, therefore they are damned
Brianna, while I will defend your right to express your beliefs, I do take offense at being lumped in with the bigots who hide behind a cloak of religion to justify their narrow minded attitudes!!!!!!!!
Bev
Quote from: Brianna on March 03, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Please.
Psychologically this is a defense mechanism known as projection. Christians can only understand the world through their myopic worldview. They project their own fears and insecurities onto others. Transsexuals don't fit into their lens, therefore they are damned - the only terms in which Christians can make sense of information.
Psychologically people don't like information they can't understand. It makes them feel stupid, which is mentally distressing. So, they limit the reasoning chain into a heuristic - an emotional shortcut. Jesus or not Jesus. It doesn't have the benifit of having any information, but it does have emotion - which is psychologically more persuasive.
I just ignore such nonsense, especially when it's coming from such a nakedly myopic mind.
Bri
A Christian idiot is just as obnoxious as any other idiot.
An enlightened Christian is just as reassuring as any other enlightened person. I agree completely with what you've just said, but just remember, while the vast,
vast majority of Christians are complete morons, there is a growing minority that actually understand the teachings of Christ (those are the good ones.)
~ Blair
Quote from: Brianna on March 03, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Psychologically people don't like information they can't understand. It makes them feel stupid, which is mentally distressing.
I don't get it ;)
Kate
Quote from: Kate on March 03, 2007, 04:43:34 PM
Quote from: Brianna on March 03, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Psychologically people don't like information they can't understand. It makes them feel stupid, which is mentally distressing.
I don't get it ;)
Kate
omg ur dum if u dont lol
~ Blair
Quote from: Julie Marie on March 03, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
So if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell? That's pretty much what I've been told by those who recite that to me.
That means if I live life giving and caring for others, if I love and help others, if my heart is good and I do good, I'll still go to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. That really seems lame.
Julie, I so agree with you here. If you have never done so, read Robert Heinlein's
Stranger in a Strange Land. An interesting treatise on religion disguised as science fiction and in it he suggests that there could be different sections of Heaven for different beliefs. Personally, I believe a good person is a good person no matter what their beliefs or lack thereof.
Bev
Quote from: Blair on March 03, 2007, 04:52:59 PM
omg ur dum if u dont lol
~ Blair
Speaking of uninformed Christians, here's their posterchild.
I know that man and the fish can coexist peacefully - GWB
I know what I believe, and I believe what I believe, I believe, is right - GWB
Our enemies are tough and resourceful, and so are we. They spend all of their time thinking of ways to harm us, and so do we - GWB
Bri
I... Don't think George W. Bush is a good example for just about anyone. Not for a rancher, not for a president, not for a U.S. citizen, and not for a Christian...
The wave is to the ocean as the person is to _____.
God? Nature? You pick.. maybe they are not that different.
We are all part of everything that ever was and will be. We drink water that was part of Christ. We breath air that was breathed by Caesar. The sandwich we ate was once part of a dinosaur. When we die, we will be recycled. We are made of stardust. New suns will be made of us.
Maybe consciousness continues, maybe not. I don't know. I'm not even sure that it's important. We are. We will be, in different aspects of others.
Blessings, Tara
Quote from: Julie Marie on March 03, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
or you will not be saved.
I've heard these words from born again family members and friends alike. I didn't get it then and I don't get it now. It just doesn't wash.
So if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell? That's pretty much what I've been told by those who recite that to me.
That means if I live life giving and caring for others, if I love and help others, if my heart is good and I do good, I'll still go to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. That really seems lame.
Bear with me if I offended your ego. It wasn't intended.
I believe God loves us unconditionally. I believe we were put here for a specific reason and we were given certain burdens to carry to help us find our purpose here. I believe in life after death and I believe I will be judged by how I lived my life here.
But I have a problem with this whole believing Christ is the son of God threat. I don't think God is so narrow minded or egotistical that She would say that. That's not the God I know.
Julie
Well, well, well... how could I resist this one? ;D
So many "Christians" have said that. "You must believe..." and then they'll finish the sentence with some sort of dogmatic line that has been parroted down through the ages as if it's from God himself. You can fill that blank with any number of things:
... that God is a Trinity.
... that the Trinity is a false doctrine.
... that there's a rapture.
... that there isn't a rapture.
... that Jesus Christ is the son of God.
... that Jesus Christ is God.
... that God is masculine.
... that God is feminine.
... that Jesus Christ somehow never even took a dump. After all, if he did, it would have been holy ->-bleeped-<-, right?
You see the mindset. It's about dogma. It's about what a person thinks about a certain topic. This, my friends, is not Christianity. More to the point, it's not what Jesus ever taught. "You must think like me to be a Christian."
Theologically speaking, it's nothing more than self-centered, self-righteous, judgmental, egotistical excrement. So many of us in the Church have allowed ourselves to be distracted by petty doctrinal issues that we have lost sight of what Jesus DID say. He said to love each other. He didn't say we had to think a certain way. In fact, if we DO think that Jesus is "the Christ, the son of the living God," then that is revealed to us by the Father (or Mother), and not by our own ego or doctrines.
Maybe it's time for those of us who DO understand that faith is not mean to be a weapon to stand up and be counted. I don't know about you, but I'm a little more than irritated that my peaceful religion has been hijacked by a bunch of warmongering thugs over and over throughout history.
Historically, religion has been synonymous with power and corrupt controlling "authorities." We've seen it with everything from the Crusades on down to the prevailing sense of fundamentalist superiority that's common today. Without question, the Church has blood on its hands. The only way to wash it off is to recognize it and begin to treat people the way we were called to treat people:
With love. With respect. With love. And when that fails, with love.
Quote from: Julie Marie on March 03, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
That means if I live life giving and caring for others, if I love and help others, if my heart is good and I do good, I'll still go to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Correct.
According to my baptist friend, good deeds don't get you into heaven. If you submit to His will, you're in. If you don't, his God will kill then torture both you and the people you love (if they don't submit either) for eternity... regardless of how kind and compassionate you are.
According to him, the stricter you follow God's Word, the better your seating position in heaven. If you obey really well, you get to sit right in front of God, and will "tremble in ultimate fear at his Glory forever and ever."
He said this with a frightening smile and glow in his eyes.
This same man kills animals for personal entertainment and sadistic pleasure (aka "hunting"). I asked him how he could do that, figuring it would at least demote him a few rows back in the audience of God's terror. He said "no, God put animals here for me to hunt."
These people scare the heck out of me. The fact that he's OK with his sadistic, egomanical tyrant of a "god" planning on killing and torturing me and my wife is something I just cannot understand. How can anyone worship a deity that uses emotional violence to extort worship?
I DO believe that his god exists, though not in the same way he believes it. But I will never, ever submit to such a cruel, sadistic being. We, as individuals, have far more power than we give ourselves credit for. If only we would believe THAT.
Kate
Quote from: Kate on March 03, 2007, 08:43:41 PM
Correct.
According to my baptist friend, good deeds don't get you into heaven. If you submit to His will, you're in. If you don't, his God will kill then torture both you and the people you love (if they don't submit either) for eternity... regardless of how kind and compassionate you are.
According to him, the stricter you follow God's Word, the better your seating position in heaven. If you obey really well, you get to sit right in front of God, and will "tremble in ultimate fear at his Glory forever and ever."
These people scare the heck out of me. The fact that he's OK with his sadistic, egomanical tyrant of a "god" planning on killing and torturing me and my wife is something I just cannot understand. How can anyone worship a deity that uses emotional violence to extort worship?
Many people ascribe the Almighty with the morals and ethics of a spoiled child. Regretably, many people learn this from their ministers. Do These Things and YOU WILL BE SAVED! Be ONE OF US! Not one of those antiChrist heathens!
You know, this almost sounds like a cult.
I know a woman who fell victim to this. Smart. Intelligent. Used to think for herself and wouldn't back down for anyone or anything.
When I shared with her that infamous Halloween 5 years ago that forced me to face my ->-bleeped-<-, she sent a 7 page email quoting scripture saying how I was committing a sin. WHen I included her in an email saying how I had separated from my spouse, she sent another 7-page email quoting scripture again saying what I was doing was wrong. (Keep in mind that
I was the one kicked out!)
Too many "churches" are mind-control cults. Not only does it divide humanity into groups of US and THEM, it also separates us from the Almighty.
Sad.
Chaunte
Jesus is the son of god
George w Bush
Love and respect
I will go to hell
Egotistical
You will be saved
Holy ->-bleeped-<-
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I feel like a stranger in a strange land reading all this....
Ricki
Quote from: Ricki on March 03, 2007, 09:43:21 PM
I feel like a stranger in a strange land reading all this....
Ricki
That's OK Ricki, so would Jesus.
And I'm so sorry to see the hatred, insults, and stereotypes get rolled out when they had nothing to do with the question asked. Understandable, but regrettable nonetheless.
Julie, your question is a really good one. I will attempt to answer it from a Christian perspective if that is permitted.
I have never thought of the Son of God as a threat. If it came across that way to you, what a shame. For me it is wonderful news. Religion is basically humanity's attempt to get to God. What sets Christianity apart is that it is the story of God's attempt to get to humanity. In order to do this, God loved us so much that God became one of us. Jesus lived among us, loved us, showed us the true meaning of God's law, stood against hypocrisy, and eventually showed us the true nature of love by laying down his life for us.
Because Christ is the Son of God, and because he was and is one of us, he can identify with our weaknesses and our sorrows. He can encourage us. He can show us the love of the Father in a way no one else could. In this love there is forgiveness, there is peace, there is life.
No one
has to believe anything, and I know many will not like what I have just written. However, for me it is incredibly good news.
Peace, Please!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on March 03, 2007, 11:21:10 PM
I have never thought of the Son of God as a threat. If it came across that way to you, what a shame.
But isn't this "believe in Jesus or you're damned for eternity" thing part of christian doctrine in general? I realize the Born Again people tend to REALLY focus on it, but doesn't it underly all of christian belief?
I know many christians are brave enough to kinda take the good parts of the bible and ignore the mean stuff (and doing so, are they really still "christians?"), but if you go by Holy Scripture (I admittedly don't know it very well) - can I get into heaven if I'm a really nice person but DON'T believe in or follow Christ?
Kate
personally, i don't trust any kind of religious & spiritual beliefs. i was baptised catholic, but no one in my family practice this religion; it is more like a tradition not like a religion. for years, i needed to find spiritual beliefs that suit to me and really, i always was disappointed about all this.
this is not what i need in my life. i am glad that my parents helped me get scientific knowledge in college and philosophy. it was closer that what i really needed inside of me. that knowledge fed me and helped me grow up.
now, i feel more serene about all this. i know i am a [non-believer] and i feel happy this way. i don't need to spit at religions & spirituality, because my life is not invaded by such concepts. i acknowledge the fact that everyone has more or less different [beliefs].
i am a non-believer who believes in humanness, and who is fan of planetology [exact science that studies any kind of planets]. i did choose my beliefs. i am much more aware about my own beliefs. i needed to free myself from any religious & spiritual influence. this is my own personal choice, and i feel much better after it is achieved. i am aware that labels about religious & spiritual beliefs leads to lots of misunderstanding. i think it is because they are intrinsicly incoherent, somehow. personally, i feel like every religious & spiritual beliefs are intrinsicly incoherent and limited. i deeply need to believe in something simple that is intrinsicly coherent. well, I am typing these words the way they arrive in my mind. so no i don't believe that jesus is the son of god because i don't believe in god. hell? i believe each of us live our own hell here on this planet.
Hey everyone,
The Sumarian's knew nothing of god. The Egyptians knew nothing of God. The Greeks knew nothing of God. The fossil record refutes the bible in countless ways, including the fact that we have fossils of humans dating back at least 6 million years. Written language dating back 15,000 years. Pictures and sculptures dating back 30,000 years. According to the bible, which has only been around a few thousand years at best, Adam and Eve were here just over 6,000 years ago.
The Bible says Adam named all the animals, but any animal not known about at the time the bible was written, is never mentioned, such as Kangaroos. But even if you chose to beleive it, with the billions of species of animals and insects, he could never have named them all if he did nothing else his entire life.
Then you have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1 Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, not to mention the religions of North and South American Natives as well as Australian natives, all of whom do not beleive in Christ and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.
Never the less, people are willing to discount all the evidence and without one shred of proof, other than brainwashing, beleive in this mystical figure. People beleive because they are threatened from the time they are born with eternal damnation. It's simple psychological conditioning. It doesn't matter that it's irrational. Most people just don't have the fortitude to say "->-bleeped-<- God!!!!". They are too afraid of eternal damnation.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 04, 2007, 02:02:25 AM
Hey everyone,
The Sumarian's knew nothing of god. The Egyptians knew nothing of God. The Greeks knew nothing of God. The fossil record refutes the bible in countless ways, including the fact that we have fossils of humans dating back at least 6 million years. Written language dating back 15,000 years. Pictures and sculptures dating back 30,000 years. According to the bible, which has only been around a few thousand years at best, Adam and Eve were here just over 6,000 years ago.
The Bible says Adam named all the animals, but any animal not known about at the time the bible was written, is never mentioned, such as Kangaroos. But even if you chose to beleive it, with the billions of species of animals and insects, he could never have named them all if he did nothing else his entire life.
Then you have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1 Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, not to mention the religions of North and South American Natives as well as Australian natives, all of whom do not beleive in Christ and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.
Never the less, people are willing to discount all the evidence and without one shred of proof, other than brainwashing, beleive in this mystical figure. People beleive because they are threatened from the time they are born with eternal damnation. It's simple psychological conditioning. It doesn't matter that it's irrational. Most people just don't have the fortitude to say "->-bleeped-<- God!!!!". They are too afraid of eternal damnation.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Dude, Elizabeth is badass. I love it.
Seriously, to Hell with this conventional, tyrannical "God" figure. I honestly could care less. It's a made-up thing. It's nonsense. It makes
no sense. Once again, I am baffled at how stupid the majority of people are.
I like how smart Elizabeth is, though!
~ Blair
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 04, 2007, 02:02:25 AM
Hey everyone,
The Sumarian's knew nothing of god. The Egyptians knew nothing of God. The Greeks knew nothing of God. The fossil record refutes the bible in countless ways, including the fact that we have fossils of humans dating back at least 6 million years. Written language dating back 15,000 years. Pictures and sculptures dating back 30,000 years. According to the bible, which has only been around a few thousand years at best, Adam and Eve were here just over 6,000 years ago.
The Bible says Adam named all the animals, but any animal not known about at the time the bible was written, is never mentioned, such as Kangaroos. But even if you chose to beleive it, with the billions of species of animals and insects, he could never have named them all if he did nothing else his entire life.
Then you have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1 Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, not to mention the religions of North and South American Natives as well as Australian natives, all of whom do not beleive in Christ and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.
Never the less, people are willing to discount all the evidence and without one shred of proof, other than brainwashing, beleive in this mystical figure. People beleive because they are threatened from the time they are born with eternal damnation. It's simple psychological conditioning. It doesn't matter that it's irrational. Most people just don't have the fortitude to say "->-bleeped-<- God!!!!". They are too afraid of eternal damnation.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I agree, people are willing to discount all of the evidence. Historical evidence in particular. While this may sound like a good refutation of the Bible in general, there is one huge problem. It is historically very inaccurate. Furthermore, the Bible does not teach those things, although I will grant you that some say that it does. Without getting into a peeing match it really impossible to even deal with statements such as these, and they are, again, not responsive to the question asked. Perhaps a later discussion.
Back to the question at hand,
Quote from: Kate on March 03, 2007, 11:35:48 PM
Quote from: Kristi on March 03, 2007, 11:21:10 PM
I have never thought of the Son of God as a threat. If it came across that way to you, what a shame.
But isn't this "believe in Jesus or you're damned for eternity" thing part of christian doctrine in general? I realize the Born Again people tend to REALLY focus on it, but doesn't it underly all of christian belief?
Wonderful question, Kate. Does it underly all of Christian belief? No it does not. There are many Christians who (for Biblical reasons) disagree on even the existence of heaven and hell. If you want to know more about that, let me know. Personally, I find it fascinating to note that Jesus only talked about eternal punishment in reference to the religious hypocrites of his day. The bulk of Christianity is concerned with a way of life, a way of love. It is not about being good enough to please God. It is not about performance up to a certain level. It is about unconditional acceptance and peace.
Peace, Please!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
QuoteSo if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell?
Either that, or you could be Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, or some other religion that does not believe him to be the messiah. I'm Jewish, and I do think that Jesus was a great teacher of his time. Buddha, Mohamed, etc were all great teachers too.
I have friends who are true Christians, ie act in true accordance with his teachings, and they are wonderful people who are deeply offended at the way many other Christians do things in his name.
zythyra
Quote from: David W. Shelton on March 03, 2007, 06:47:52 PM
... that Jesus Christ somehow never even took a dump. After all, if he did, it would have been holy ->-bleeped-<-, right?
David, you are great! This comment had me pounding my desk laughing.
I've read a few posts from your blog, and I like them very much. So I should point out that you have a typo in your signature: the link to your blog is written as "skippingtothe
iccolo," so I had to correct it manually to get it to work. You might want to correct that.
Quote from: zythyra on March 04, 2007, 08:33:59 AM
QuoteSo if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell?
Either that, or you could be Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, or some other religion that does not believe him to be the messiah. I'm Jewish, and I do think that Jesus was a great teacher of his time. Buddha, Mohamed, etc were all great teachers too.
I have friends who are true Christians, ie act in true accordance with his teachings, and they are wonderful people who are deeply offended at the way many other Christians do things in his name.
zythyra
This reminds me of the episode of South Park when David Blaine starts a cult that he is leading to mass suicide, and Jesus calls together the "Super Best Friends", consisting of him, Mohammed, Buddha, Joseph Smith, Krishna, and Lau-Tzu to stop Blaine. This episode contains this quote:
Stan: So you mean to tell me that even though people fight and argue over different religions, you guys are all actually friends?
Mohammed: More than friends, young boy, we are super best friends, with the desire to fight for justice.
Joseph Smith: We all believe in the power of good over evil. Except for Buddha, of course, who doesn't believe in evil.
I agree that Christians who live by love (the real kind of Christians) should be offended at the (so-called) Christians who live by hate.
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 04, 2007, 02:02:25 AM
The Sumarian's knew nothing of god. The Egyptians knew nothing of God. The Greeks knew nothing of God. The fossil record refutes the bible in countless ways, including the fact that we have fossils of humans dating back at least 6 million years. Written language dating back 15,000 years. Pictures and sculptures dating back 30,000 years. According to the bible, which has only been around a few thousand years at best, Adam and Eve were here just over 6,000 years ago.
No... They just had a different spin. The Sumarians knew of the Almighty, they just broke Him/Her up into multiple pieces! So did the Babylonians. So did the Egyptians.
Speaking of which... As I recall, the pharaoh before Ramses was monotheistic! He closed all the temples save one. I believe it was Ra's, but don't hold me to that. This angered the temple priests (duh!) and led to his early demise! Ramses promised to reopen the temples, so had the backing of the priests. Even then, power & politics will overwhelm a religion.
THe problem is misusing Scripture.
Scripture describes the relationship between the Almighty & humanity. Trying to use Scripture to prove that the Earth was formed October 23, 4004 BC is asinine. This is what a 17th century theologian calculated. To say that the sounding of horns caused the walls of Jericho to fall does not take into account that Jericho is built directly on a very active fault. You're right, Elizabeth. A lot of things do not hold up under scientific scrutiny.
This is what happens when a spiritual book is used to provide a history. It's like using a hammer to drive in a screw. It can be used, but not well.
Regretably, scripture is too often used to support the concept of
You're either with us, or against us. That is the failing of many communities.
If you are not a Christian, does that mean you will go to hell? No.
I believe that we will be plesantly surprised at the number of non-Christian we will find in Heaven. And we just may notice the number of supposed Christians who will be missing from the rank & file.
Chaunte
The responses above tell me something about the people here, they think for themselves. How wonderfully refreshing!
David, I absolutely loved your response! Honestly, I never knew how to respond to this nonsense, you must believe of else, it says so in the Bible. Now with your words and the words of the other member here, I have something of substance to support my beliefs.
For me, the Bible has become a totally misused book that holier-than-thou people use to make themselves feel good. I figure when the time comes to be judged they will get a tongue lashing. They will certainly have some words for me but they will know what I did I did from the heart, not the ego.
I will not change my beliefs because they have worked so beautifully for me. I know when I do good. I know when I do bad. All I have to do is look at the results, not some "rule book". And I think that's the problem with the pompous, self-righteous individuals who abuse the Bible. They take what is written in the Bible to support their wrongdoings. It's okay to hate gays and lesbians and transgender people, the Bible says so. That kind of thing. Is it any wonder why I never felt compelled to read the Bible?
Love is what matters most, not some words in a book. Love your fellow man. Love the creatures around you. Love all the creations of God and treat them with kindness and caring. If you do you won't have to worry about St. Peter. You'll have a VIP pass.
Julie
I see a lot of dogma sneaking it's way into this discussion and very little substance. If the Summarians, the Greeks, or the Egyptians knew of the Christian God, it certainly was not reflected in thier cultures, writings or artwork. This does not even really talk about the Chinese, Asia and the rest of the world, who also all knew nothing of the Christian God.
Religious doctrine is not history. It would be like finding a copy of Harry Potter three thousand years from now and saying it must all be true. I don't want to get into a pissing match either, but if one is going to try to say that the world always knew of god and I am somehow mistaken about this, I would really like to see the documentation. Please, do not refer me to religious texts of the Current Era as proof.
My point is simple, the world had been around a long time before anyone ever mentions God or Christ, of Judeaism, Islam, or Christianity, the "god" religions. And, most of the worlds population, thier entire history exists without anyone every metioning these mythical beings.
My experience with theologians is that they tend to try to find a way to make the world fit thier particular religion, as opposed to looking at history and seeing what it really tells us.
We live in a universe that is so big, our minds can not even comprehend it. We can not make an analogy to describe how insignificant we are in the universe. We can see galaxies that the light has been traveling to us for 14,000,000,000 years. Religious doctrine simply can not account for this. Not to mention flat out mistakes, like saying the stars are immoble and are in a firmament. Or that witches exist.
I am open to learning, but not religious dogma. If anyone has evidence that these other cultures knew about the god in the bible, I am more than willing to look at it and concede my mistake. I have yet to see such evidence. Only religious doctrine making claims.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I agree with Elizabeth.
The Bible is not a historical document. It is a collection of stories. The Bible is a reflection of the culture at the time. Even an annotated version of the book will usually concede this much, at least some of the time. Some of it is worthless garbage, but The Bible can also communicate some valuable truths. I believe people who understand the context of The Bible are typically best equipped to bring out those constructive ideas -- it's not a necessary or sufficient condition, but it seems to make a big difference.
Quoteyou must believe of else, it says so in the Bible.
yes.. My normal response to this is:
So if I write a book, and place the line: Everything in this book is the truth, does that make my book a valid recording of the actual truth?
...
...
...
Even if I insert pink flying hippos?
I am not even going to touch this subject.
Given the potential volatility of the subject, I am almost surprised that the thread was initiated.
Quote from: rhonda13000 on March 05, 2007, 03:38:06 PM
Given the potential volatility of the subject, I am almost surprised that the thread was initiated.
I guess you don't know me very well. ;D
Julie
So it would seem.
My Bible shows that the Lord said you must believe and that the disciples said likewise. The laws and prophets bear witness to their words so I believe it. I also believe that since it is of faith I don't need to see any proof. If other cultures or nations would have written history of it that I knew about to me it would no longer be of faith. Because of that I really don't care what other people believe or have recorded. Most of my battles and disagreements are with Christians anyway.
Tiff
This puts it into perspective for me.
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/KissingHanksAss.mov (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/KissingHanksAss.mov)
Love always,
Elizabeth
"Most of my battles and disagreements are with Christians anyway."
Well, alright.
So are mine, just as was experienced earlier today. But appealing to these is largely as effective and productive as conversing with my bottle of "Obsession" perfume.
They will acknowledge the existence of other birth defects, medical and neuro-morphological defects of the mind, but for some 'reason' if such involves specifically a gender anomaly, it and its resolution is contrary to the will of God.
Just why is such a dichotomy and variance in interpretation being made here?
Why should this be the exception?
Why when pressed, can these not cite 'chapter and verse' and adduce solid Scriptural support in substantiation of what they want badly to believe, notwithstanding the fact that in reality, God does not share their delusion?
There is nothing in Scripture that militates nor proscribes against what I am fighting to survive against.
This however will not dissuade me from discarding my own faith and this is why I am presently in something of a strange situation and dilemma. ???
Chaunte said:
QuoteSpeaking of which... As I recall, the pharaoh before Ramses was monotheistic! He closed all the temples save one. I believe it was Ra's, but don't hold me to that. This angered the temple priests (duh!) and led to his early demise! Ramses promised to reopen the temples, so had the backing of the priests. Even then, power & politics will overwhelm a religion.
That would be Akhan Aten. (my spelling may be wrong). His sect worshiped only one god, the sun (Aten). He abolished all other gods in his kingdom and forced the nation to follow the one god of the sun. He built a new capitol city. He was NOT popular. When he died, much of his religion and most of the records of his existance were wiped from Egyptian history.
I belive that it is VERY interesting to note, that the 12 tribes of Israel left shortly after his demise. Could it not be possible that they were the remnants of Aten's faith who could not give it up and resort back to the previous religions as everyone else did? They certainly would not be popular among the general population.
I know that this is very far off the subject of this thread... but I just had to throw it out there for general consumption.
So... back to the thread. People do what they do. Until they learn something of the world, they need their security blanket of hate. Once they learn to love, then they become the beings their god intended them to be.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 05, 2007, 05:44:56 PM
So... back to the thread. People do what they do. Until they learn something of the world, they need their security blanket of hate. Once they learn to love, then they become the beings their god intended them to be.
It's a theology of fear and despair more than hate, I think Cindy. It says the most glorious moment in human history will be the end of human history instead of any zenith. We saw a glimpse of this in Jesus Camp, this sort of strange spiritual Darwinsim that exists within the Dominionists.
I think this movement preys of the despair that is indemic in American society, and it depends on those in the middle class that have been devoured by the violations of both parties in the last two decades and the abolition of the labor movement. I think the Dominionist movement promises them a kind of magic where Jesus will save them from their disenchantment.
Brilala
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 05, 2007, 09:58:20 AM
I see a lot of dogma sneaking it's way into this discussion and very little substance. If the Summarians, the Greeks, or the Egyptians knew of the Christian God, it certainly was not reflected in thier cultures, writings or artwork. This does not even really talk about the Chinese, Asia and the rest of the world, who also all knew nothing of the Christian God.
I wasn't trying to ay that they believed in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God. Rather, they did believe in god/s. Looking back at what I wrote, I can see where I misled & misspoke and I apologize for that.
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 05, 2007, 09:58:20 AM
Religious doctrine is not history.
I quite agree. Neither is scripture history. That's not its purpose.
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 05, 2007, 09:58:20 AM
My point is simple, the world had been around a long time before anyone ever mentions God or Christ, of Judeaism, Islam, or Christianity, the "god" religions. And, most of the worlds population, thier entire history exists without anyone every metioning these mythical beings.
Quite true.
If you get a chance, I think you would enjoy the book
Noah's Flood, by Pitman and Ryan. No, it is not a religious book by any means. Rather, its about trying to find the real history behind the Great Flood story. They put together a very convincing case that the Great Flood actually describes the ... Well, I don't want to give the book away! I think you would find the implications regarding language, culture and genetics fascinating. I certainly did!
Again, I'm sorry for not speaking clearly earlier.
Chaunte
Quote from: Chaunte on March 05, 2007, 06:45:05 PMQuote from: Elizabeth on March 05, 2007, 09:58:20 AM
Religious doctrine is not history.
I quite agree. Neither is scripture history. That's not its purpose.
The problem seems to be that a huge chunk of the population believes and acts (and votes) as if religion is a literal and historical account that may not be questioned by the masses -- you accept that this is not religion's purpose, but there is a group of people who *do* give doctrine that purpose. Such Christians generally elieve the rapture will happen, and most of those feel it is imminent. As long as people of any faith live this way, they *will* pose substantial interference for everyone else. No one here may identify with this group, but I think regardless of whether you follow a particular faith or are agnostic/atheist, I think we should agree to reject the *behaviors* and *attitudes* of those who wish to impose their wills on others.
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 04, 2007, 02:02:25 AM
Then you have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1 Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, not to mention the religions of North and South American Natives as well as Australian natives, all of whom do not beleive in Christ and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.
Like that South Park 'Jesus vs the Devil' episode, where, like, 1,026 people are in Heaven, and the In Hell list just scrolls on and on in the zillions, so God has to readust the criteria in order to win...
Actually, most Christian religions state that you have to believe Jesus IS God or you will go to hell, but you had the right idea. Sounds a bit silly to me. In that sense, a person who believes in the Judiasm but devotes his whole life to helping the poor and sick and donates 25% of his income to charity, never smokes or does drugs, never swears, never steals, never lies, never gambles, and loves an respects his wife, children and his fellow human beings... Is going straight into the lake of fire. I find that very hard to believe. God is eternal love... She is not some irrational monster that will condemn someone forever because their beliefs about her are not entirely spot on. I, personally, don't believe that Jesus is God. I never have. I believe in him and love him very much as my savior, but I will never consider him my God...
Quote from: Chandra21 on May 20, 2007, 09:17:27 PM
In that sense, a person who believes in the Judiasm but devotes his whole life to helping the poor and sick and donates 25% of his income to charity, never smokes or does drugs, never swears, never steals, never lies, never gambles, and loves an respects his wife, children and his fellow human beings... Is going straight into the lake of fire.
Sounds about right. The way I've been able to deal with this doctrine is to think that it's all about attitude. If you believe that you are doing everything right and deserve to get to heaven (unlike the gay couple living next door), you are essentially telling God what to do, which in itself is a big no-no. If, on the other hand, you admit that however hard you try you are still imperfect, then you are forgiven. This is in fact a bit like what I was told in basic training during my military days: it's all right to screw up, everyone does that on occasion, but trying to cover up those screwups is bound to get you in big trouble.
The bottom line is, the requirements are strict enough that there is no way a mere human can live up to them. Just accept that and ask God to forgive you, and He will. Whether you choose to attach the name Jesus to the aspect of God that deals with this part of the human relations ( ;) ) is, I suppose, secondary -- the main point is that if you try to tell God what He should do with you (instead of asking nicely), He will get you on one technicality or another.
Nfr
One thing that a lot of Christians seem to forget (if they ever knew it at all) is that hell is a relatively new creation (historically speaking, of course). There was never any mention of hell in the Torah or the Tenach...
It wasn't until the time of the Pharisees that the idea of hell became commonplace in religious teaching. And Jesus loved to talk about hell... to smack down the Pharisees... who were the ones who adopted the teaching of it in the first place. And why did they adopt "hell," the burning garbage heap? Why, to control of course!
The bottom line in Christianity is grace. Anything else just gets in the way.
Quote from: David W. Shelton on May 21, 2007, 06:24:16 AM
One thing that a lot of Christians seem to forget (if they ever knew it at all) is that hell is a relatively new creation (historically speaking, of course). There was never any mention of hell in the Torah or the Tenach...
It wasn't until the time of the Pharisees that the idea of hell became commonplace in religious teaching. And Jesus loved to talk about hell... to smack down the Pharisees... who were the ones who adopted the teaching of it in the first place. And why did they adopt "hell," the burning garbage heap? Why, to control of course!
The bottom line in Christianity is grace. Anything else just gets in the way.
I never knew this, and now that I do, I am happier. Happier, I say!
~ Blair
Quote from: Blair on May 21, 2007, 02:13:02 PM
Quote from: David W. Shelton on May 21, 2007, 06:24:16 AM
One thing that a lot of Christians seem to forget (if they ever knew it at all) is that hell is a relatively new creation (historically speaking, of course). There was never any mention of hell in the Torah or the Tenach...
It wasn't until the time of the Pharisees that the idea of hell became commonplace in religious teaching. And Jesus loved to talk about hell... to smack down the Pharisees... who were the ones who adopted the teaching of it in the first place. And why did they adopt "hell," the burning garbage heap? Why, to control of course!
The bottom line in Christianity is grace. Anything else just gets in the way.
I never knew this, and now that I do, I am happier. Happier, I say!
~ Blair
The place mentioned in the Torah and Tanakh is Scheol. Depending on a persons interpretation. Took me a minute or two to figure out the word I wanted to use. Getting a bit old. Hehe. It could either be a valley somewhere in the Egypt,Sinai,Israel area where a battle was fought or a place of rest for the soul. It was not considered an ends all point for the soul but acted as waiting area. The Greek place known as Hades also served the same purpose. The Elysian Fields were also located in Hades.
QuoteYou Must Believe Jesus Christ Is The Son Of God...
I must? ???
Yvonne, for you we'll make an exception!
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 26, 2007, 06:24:03 PM
Yvonne, for you we'll make an exception!
Cindi
LOL ;D
Yvonne, IMO
MUST is too strong a word. It's always our
choice to believe or not to believe. ;)
tink :icon_chick:
Dave could you further explain this: "And Jesus loved to talk about hell... to smack down the Pharisees... who were the ones who adopted the teaching of it in the first place. And why did they adopt "hell," the burning garbage heap? Why, to control of course!"
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "to smack down the Pharisees." Could you please give me an example from scripture so I may better understand your point.
Second, this point, "And why did they adopt "hell," the burning garbage heap? Why, to control of course!," seems to be speculation. Could you offer some proof or reasonable argument that the Pharisees "created" the concept of hell to try and control the people.
Thanks.
Quote from: jamesBrine on May 27, 2007, 12:55:37 AM
Dave could you further explain this: "And Jesus loved to talk about hell... to smack down the Pharisees... who were the ones who adopted the teaching of it in the first place. And why did they adopt "hell," the burning garbage heap? Why, to control of course!"
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "to smack down the Pharisees." Could you please give me an example from scripture so I may better understand your point.
Second, this point, "And why did they adopt "hell," the burning garbage heap? Why, to control of course!," seems to be speculation. Could you offer some proof or reasonable argument that the Pharisees "created" the concept of hell to try and control the people.
Thanks.
this is a pretty indepth topic that I'll probably go into a little later. The word used for hell in Hebrew was also "gehenna," which is that garbage heap thing.
I'm going to hold off on any further explanation for now, though... too tired to think at the moment!
See ya,
David
Quote from: Yvonne on May 26, 2007, 05:10:53 PM
QuoteYou Must Believe Jesus Christ Is The Son Of God...
I must? ???
No you mustn't :angel:
The concept of an conscious afterlife destination for the dead is abundant, ancient, and found in vast numbers of cultures. These after-death planes of existence are variously described as good, bad, and neutral. The concept of a hellish place of punishment has been around much longer than the word 'Hell' itself.
The word 'Hell', in English, comes from Norse Mythology where 'Hel' was both the name of the realm of the dead, and the female giant who ruled there. From the English speaking Christian point of reference, the word 'Hell' is often translated from and used interchangeably with Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna (as found in Biblical scripture), along with the Latin word 'infernus'.
Sheol - the ancient Hebrew term for the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, the common grave of mankind. The term is found more than 60 times in the Old Testament. By the first century (Jesus' time of birth), many of the Jewish people had come to believe those in Sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort in the bosom of Abraham or in torment. The belief is reflected in the Biblical parable of Lazarus and Dives found in the New Testament [Luke 16:19].
Hades - the ancient Greek term for both the misty, gloomy underworld and the god of the dead. All mortal souls went to Hades regardless of reward or punishment. The KJV translates Hades as 'Hell' ten times and once as 'grave'. (Much of the New Testament is translated from original Scriptures written in Greek.)
Tartarus - from Greek mythology, both a god and a place of afterlife punishment in Hades. Plato (c. 400 BCE) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus. The term is found only once in the Bible [2 Peter 2:4].
Gehenna - word derived from both Greek and Hebrew roots, it is a place name, literally 'Valley of Hinnom's son'. It is first mentioned as a deep, narrow ravine at the foot of the walls of the city of Jerusalem where all kinds of refuse was burned outside the city [Joshua 15:8]. Bodies of executed criminals or others deemed unworthy of a proper burial were taken there. Jewish tradition holds the Canaanites sacrificed children to their god Moloch in this place. In the New Testament, Gehenna is known as a place of "unquenchable fire" [Mark 9:43].
Infernus - the Latin word meaning 'being underneath', below, southern. The word is related to 'inferi' meaning those down below, the dead. (No fire here! Surprise!)
The word 'Pharisees' comes from the Hebrew word meaning 'separate', as one who is separated for a life of purity. The Pharisees were highly regarded as pious and extremely honest in their business dealings, honorable and most trustworthy. The Pharisees were, at various times, a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought among Jews that flourished about 400 years during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE to 70 CE, the time of the destruction of Herod's Temple and just a few decades after Jesus' death).
Back to you, David!
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen: