My friends, I have grown concerned.
I am concerned with this recent discussion of labels, of varying degrees of ->-bleeped-<-, of categories and numbers and quizzes and results and things. It is easy to forget, in an international society so focused on numbers and results, a simple fact.
People are not numbers.
People are people. We have measurable components, but deep down, we are humans. That simple realization is all that is necessary to propel us forward into a prosperous future. Pride in humanity. Dignity in all things humane.
This is something I wrote in another post I wanted everyone to read. Take it with a grain of salt, or bust out the shaker. Your choice. I feel it needs to be heard.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Look, there are a lot of fun words out there. Arguing semantics and definitions and apples and oranges and split hairs is fine. Hoo-rah.
Let's just bear in mind that a transsexual*, in this modern era, is someone with an instinctual drive towards having their physical body match their soul. With the assistance of society's veritable black hole of understanding and acceptance, they often mount up on their own crusade to vanquish and do righteous battle with these "simply wicked" thoughts. However, this is much akin to a man doing battle with his own reflection. It's a complete stalemate, and it ultimately drives you mad (as any pointless conflict will.)
This statement of "must transition" is simply what it is. The spirit must match the body, for everyone (not just transsexuals), and therefore in order to achieve this astral/material harmony, the offending flesh must be discarded (see suicide) so that the spirit can be freed to realign, or the flesh must be sculpted into a form that is satisfactory to the afflicted.
Why do "punks" spike their hair and wear torn jeans? Why do "cowboys" wear big belt buckles and chew tobacco? Why do "goths" (my category, according to some) wear black, baroque styles and makeup? Why does anyone feel the urge, the need to appear in one way or another to other human beings?
See my above statement. We display our emotions. We display our subconcious, our feelings, our hurts and hopes in the way we dress, the way we act, the way we speak, the way we write or draw or dance or make love in an attempt to communicate on a deeper level than words. Here I am, we say with our appearance, this is my soul, this is what I love, this is what I am.
To deny any human being the basic principle of self-expression is to deny them their humanity. Thus, a transsexual, one who has a spirit that is contradictory in overall gender to their physical sex, must transition into a state that they feel is acceptable. Whether or not this is simply living full-time and presenting as a woman (something more would do if SRS was not a legal requirement to have birth certificates changed, I imagine) or completely transforming oneself into the opposite, satisfactory sex is as irrelevant as hair color.
A blonde is a person who has hair that appears blonde. My mother is actually brunette, but dyes her hair blonde. I am a natural blonde, but I dye my hair black. Why? We are compelled to have our physical form represent how we feel at all times. There is no choice in that, only varying degrees. It is humanity, and in my personal, candid opinion, it is beautiful.
~ Blair
* See, human being.
On some level, accepting people for their feelings is key. Labels are useful for identification, but they should [EDIT: not] serve as an end-all for anything. The important thing is the person can find what is best for them, rather than assign them something that seems to work for people "similar" to them.
Quote from: Kaelin on March 05, 2007, 06:42:19 PM
On some level, accepting people for their feelings is key. Labels are useful for identification, but they should serve as an end-all for anything. The important thing is the person can find what is best for them, rather than assign them something that seems to work for people "similar" to them.
I agree with this, albiet with the caveat that the science behind transsexualism and transvestisim is generally quite solid and is quite relevant is determining a proper medical course of action.
Self-labeling is fine to a degree. But not in terms of treatment for transsexualism.
Brilala
I must say - I deeply agree and strongly echo the sentiments expressed by Blair in this thread. I think too many people get too wrapped up in what i would call either mass (in the case of say. religions for example) or personal "intellectual ownership" of principles, values, beliefs, or various kind of labels which seemingly can actually limit the dialogue between fellow members of the human family, which we all are without exception (those claiming otherplanetary status are of course excepted) - in fact, i was thinking in recent days how to publicly address this very issue myself.
Blair, i think what you wrote was perfect - beautiful, succint, intelligent, and to the point without being ostentatious about it (one of my particular habits)....
Sincerely,
Annagirl
Hi Blair!
I couldn't agree more. And I find it intresting that at this time I am struggling so hard to be free to be what I truly am meant to be. If it only means emerging to be forced into a box that doesn't quite fit, why bother at all? I know that some here are very comfortable with their labels and I am happy for them. Does that mean everyobody should be? No. However we try to avoid it, labels will be listed in an order, which will become a hierarchy, and some of us will become more equal than others. Some will not be worth our dealing with. Just look at that awful she-male thread. Labels are fine as long as they are descriptive. But it is inevitable that they eventually become prescriptive. If I end up being virtually like somebody else, so be it. It won't be something to celebrate, necessarily. Nor will be be a problem. It just is.
In short, if there is one thing I am certain about right now, it is that nobody, and I mean, nobody, is going to tell me how and what to be any more. I am finished giving society or any person that right. And they will not have it if I refuse to give it.
I'm off to test my wings. Sure, they are different. But they are mine, and I'm gonna fly.
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Quote from: Tinkerbell on March 05, 2007, 07:51:28 PMOh I see, you don't want hormones or surgery, or perhaps you only want hormones but not surgery, well then you are not transsexual; it is as simple as that
Indeed. However, I think the point of the thread there is that too much attention is paid to the label and not the feelings and symptoms as they emerge. If you start quizzing someone about whether they feel they are a certain type of person, you introduce ideas and a thought-process that isn't really consistent with the feelings involved, and it can leave the person more confused. This labels we are introducing would not be a problem if 1) we weren't in such a rush to figure out what label someone falls under and 2) we regularly recognized the identities and labels that correspond to possibilities besides TS, Androgynous, CD, and TV.
To motivate the point, if someone identifies as their non-biological gender, perhaps wants hormones (for non-erotic reasons), but does not want surgery, you can say they are not TS, but it is a bit unfair to just deny them an identity for their condition. I suppose a word I read somewhere to describe someone fitting this criteria is transgenderist (https://www.susans.org/wiki/-%3E-bleeped-%3C-#Transgenderists). With that in mind, it should be rather apparent why TGists feel like they are in limbo -- their label is often confused for TG, TGs rarely acknowledge the possibility of it, TGists do not have their own forum section to justify their identity and clarify the confusion, and their resulting desire to fit it with TSs as "non-op TSs" and leads them to being rejected by the ("elitist" or "purist") TS crowd and leaves them without a home.
Is there any reason we should not have a "Transger
ist Talk" forum section?
Maybe we should just focus on the individual and their needs, and what would best make them happy? Ya know, treat the person, the human being who feels and loves and hurts, rather than processing them through some arbitrary idealogy into some pre-packaged, neatly boxed solution?
Coming here used to fill me with strength, with resolve. I came here for HOPE.
But something's changed lately. Heck, maybe *I changed, I don't know. But now all I see is oneupMANship, everyone rushing to step on everyone else's head just to get to the better label, the prettier diagnosis. Oh sure, "being a true transsexual isn't better." Right, tell that to the False Transsexuals you wantonly stepped on in your climb to be Better Than. I leave here these days hurt and broken, hope leaking from wounds that came from I don't know where.
And I thought it was just the Born Agains twisting things into personal idealogies to bolster their own egos. The religious right have their bible, the True Transsexuals have their diagnostic manuals. Holy Scripture being used to curse the damned, and save the Righteous. Same story, same theme being played out everywhere I look. Hurt the weak, the vulnerable, and climb up their broken bodies into heaven. Damn the unbelievers, dehuminize them into labels and problems, invalidate their motives as being impure and ugly, and maybe we can seem almost pretty in contrast.
People I've come out to have often mentioned my "transsexual culture," and I've angrily denied there WAS such a thing. How utterly naieve I was, blinded by my own submission to it.
And I'm ashamed I got caught up in it. I know better. So I bow out of the game. I turn in my applications for womanhood and True Transsexual, relinquishing any claim to such things. I'm NOT a woman. I'm NOT a Transsexual. I'm donating my unsigned cards back into the pool.
WHAT I am isn't important to me anymore. How I live and love and hurt and feel is.
I know what I need. I've found ways to get it. And I'm going to keep at it until I can't anymore.
Kate
Kate that was beautiful. You got it girl. :eusa_clap:Jolene
* Kaelin offers Kate a second sympathy hug in as many days.
Quote from: Tinkerbell on March 05, 2007, 08:57:44 PM...I don't have a problem with anyone who identifies as transsexual, is on therapy for transsexualism, currently takes hormones and is awaiting for her SRS; however, I do have a problem with a person, who has erotic fantasies when he wears dresses, does not want to get rid of his genitalia because he enjoys it, has a male gender identity and calls himself transsexual.
I did say non-erotic, didn't I?
You seem to be contrasting Types V-VI and Types I-III. I think I-III are generally accepted as TV, and we can reject those people as TS. Type IV and anything that falls outside the listed six types may not necessarily have an established label for themselves. These people without a well-recognized label deserve some mercy.
Quote from: TinkerbellTYPE IV - Transsexual - Non-Surgi[c]al
Gender "feeling" : Uncertain Wavering between TV and TS. May reject "gender".
Dressing Habits and Social Life : "Dresses" often as possible with insufficient relief of gender discomfort. May live as man or as a woman.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life : Libido low. Genrally asexual or autoerotic.May be bisexual.
Conversion Operation (SRS) : Attractive but not required.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy : Needed for comfort & emotioal balance.
Psychotherapy : Only as guidance, most often refused and unsuccessful.
Remarks : Social life dependant on circumstances. Often identifies as "transgenderist".
I've underlined a critical piece as it pertains to my previous post. In this sense, non-op TS is a cohesive thing provided their motivation is non-erotic. They should either be accepted as TS or TGists. We must not lump them in with TVs or leave them nameless.
Kate,
I don't agree with you at all. As I've been studying the literature lately in preparation for grad school, I've come to understand that part of the frustration that therapists deal in treating clients with gender issues is
1. A patient's indignation when a professional finds they don't fit into the diagnostic criteria.
2. The tendancy of such people to self deny all clasification.
I hardly think this science is rapatious, as you suggest.
Bri
QuoteThere are clearly different approaches on how to treat transvestism, transsexualism, and other non-TS gender dysphoric conditions. The medical community takes this very seriously and anyone who "believes" to be transsexual should as well. Why? because giving hormones or surgery to a ->-bleeped-<- or to someone who is not transsexual can be catastrophic.
I think it should also be noted that NOT giving hormones or surgery to someone who IS transsexual can also be just as catastrophic. Which is why it is so important for someone going through this process to find someone that (a.) they are comfortable with (b.) someone that understands where that individual is coming from -- how they work.
Like any other treatment regimen, not all processes work with all individuals. And since it is the relationship between the caregivers and the client that will determine the success or failure of the treatment regimen, it is EXTREMELY important to find the right place, and practitioner to work with that particular individual. This is not an objective science by any means -- it is subjective. And the caregiver can either help the client, or cause a lot of damage.
QuoteOh I see, you don't want hormones or surgery, or perhaps you only want hormones but not surgery, well then you are not transsexual; it is as simple as that; transvestism, transsexualism and other non-TS gender dysphoric conditions are very easily identifiable such as cancer, diabetes, or down syndrome.
Well, I am concerned with the certainty of your point of view. Since so many individuals seem to morph or evolve over time, as do their self-identification and desires, I am not sure how any level of certainty can be established. I think at best it is an inexact science, especially since each practitioner is going to evaluate each client differently, as it should be. I would guess that if someone were to line up several practitioners of the same discipline (endo, therapist, etc), that each of those practitioners would have a different opinion (from slightly different to completely different) of the same client, and treatment options.
Whereas one practitioner might find a certain client to be a suitable candidate for a certain treatment (hormonal, surgery), another might find them completely unsuitable.
This is where the tag of "gatekeeper" originates from. A client in that position would have two options -- evolving themself to meet the expectations of their caregiver, or finding another caregiver that sympathizes with their position.
I know when I moved to OR, I was SHOCKED at how easily prescription hormones were dispensed here. I have also been shocked at some of the people that were chosen to be recommended for surgery by their physician, based on either psychological, or behavioral criteria.
MY own opinion (I stress this is my opinion), is that therapists should only be there as an aid, and should not be involved in the referral process, for the reasons listed above. I further believe that since the medical establishment has made this industry a cash and carry kind of arrangement, that the choice to allow a treatment should be strictly between the client, and that individual practitioner (since it already is by default).
IMO, the so-called standards of care are a facade that don't accomplish anything but help keep the surgeon from being held liable. I personally don't believe that they are there to actually help any of the clients.
I think that if a person has the $$$, and can find a practitioner that agrees to work with them, than they should be able to do whatever they want -- SOC be damned. Caveat Emptor. That would go a long way to ridding us of all of these devisive labels. Such is my two cents worth.
Quote from: Kate on March 05, 2007, 09:28:41 PM
But now all I see is oneupMANship, everyone rushing to step on everyone else's head just to get to the better label, the prettier diagnosis. I leave here these days hurt and broken, hope leaking from wounds that came from I don't know where.
And I thought it was just the Born Agains twisting things into personal idealogies to bolster their own egos. The religious right have their bible, the True Transsexuals have their diagnostic manuals. Holy Scripture being used to curse the damned, and save the Righteous. Same story, same theme being played out everywhere I look. Hurt the weak, the vulnerable, and climb up their broken bodies into heaven. Damn the unbelievers, dehuminize them into labels and problems, invalidate their motives as being impure and ugly, and maybe we can seem almost pretty in contrast.
Thank you Kate for finding the words I could not. One of the many reasons I left here a few years ago was much the same thing I find on the board now. On the Spirituality Board, I'm lumped in by some with the so-called Christians who profess love but actually preach hate and intolerance. I must be one of them because I'm a Christian. On other boards, I'm basically told between the lines I'm a second class citizen because I do not have any current plans to transition. I've always said the Southern Baptist approach to ministry was to tie a bible to an axe handle and beat you over the head with it. I didn't like it then and I don't like it when it's the SOC tied to the axe handle. It almost caused me to say goodbye again today but unlike before when I left there is an advantage on the board today that we didn't have. The ignore button.
As Kristie said
Quote
However we try to avoid it, labels will be listed in an order, which will become a hierarchy, and some of us will become more equal than others.
Yes, Orwell would be quite proud.
Bev
My most humble apologies to anyone on this board that i have ever directed or that has felt any such percieved inappropriately competitive, belittling, or otherwise insulting behaviors, thoughts, or feelings from me....
This was immediately humbling to me, and i realized (or was reminded in a compelling way), that i could, still can, and definitely must, do better all the way round'...
Thanks.
Lovingly always,
Annagirl
i'm a type XX ts ;)
i do believe it takes your own consent for anybody to be able to make you feel inferior. i know i'd like it to just be as simple as [a decision]. it isn't so, there are standards to follow, prerequisites to meet, criteria for diagnosis, evaluation, and acceptance.
if you think you aren't a transexual, then you aren't one. don't blame the standards of care or the dsm for what you are or aren't.
Ps and by the way, when i use the pronoun [you], i'm referring to an impersonal you. ;)
Quote from: Katia on March 06, 2007, 12:12:55 AM
i'm a type XX ts ;)
i do believe it takes your own consent for anybody to be able to make you feel inferior. i know i'd like it to just be as simple as [a decision].
if you think you aren't a transexual, then you aren't one. don't blame the standards of care or the dsm for what you are or aren't.
Oh Katia. I think you are just the greatest! Well said.
That's such a good point. I think if you feel inferior, that must be because of your own issues. When I transitioned, it was the end of caring what people thought of me. It became my armor.
Bri
Quote from: Kate on March 05, 2007, 09:28:41 PM
But something's changed lately. Heck, maybe *I changed, I don't know. But now all I see is oneupMANship, everyone rushing to step on everyone else's head just to get to the better label, the prettier diagnosis. Oh sure, "being a true transsexual isn't better." Right, tell that to the False Transsexuals you wantonly stepped on in your climb to be Better Than. I leave here these days hurt and broken, hope leaking from wounds that came from I don't know where.
And I thought it was just the Born Agains twisting things into personal idealogies to bolster their own egos. The religious right have their bible, the True Transsexuals have their diagnostic manuals. Holy Scripture being used to curse the damned, and save the Righteous. Same story, same theme being played out everywhere I look. Hurt the weak, the vulnerable, and climb up their broken bodies into heaven. Damn the unbelievers, dehuminize them into labels and problems, invalidate their motives as being impure and ugly, and maybe we can seem almost pretty in contrast.
Well said. The SOC is nothing but guidelines used by other people to help us. They don't define us they don't say what we are or aren't. They exist not for us but for the medical staff that treats us.
... WTF.
Good heavens. Relax. I'm with Anomie. This thread makes my brainmeats hurt. Thank you for the positive response, though, Anna.
My dears, let us not turn this into a bonfire of debate and let it be a testament to our mutual desire to simply be ourselves. Some of these responses do little to alleviate my concern...
... Honestly, I wonder if anyone is listening so much as reacting to what I say.
~ Blair
is anyone fighting? ??? i'm very relaxed, drinking a cup of turkish coffee and enjoying the voice or maria callas. i don't argue, i just respond and give my personal opinions just like i'm doing now. ;)
Quote from: Katia on March 06, 2007, 02:09:17 AM
is anyone fighting? ??? i'm very relaxed, drinking a cup of turkish coffee and enjoying the voice or maria callas. i don't argue, i just respond and give my personal opinions just like i'm doing now. ;)
I'm not sure I even know. I just get this feeling that most completely missed my point.
~ Blair
Quote from: Nikki_W on March 06, 2007, 01:07:23 AM
Well said. The SOC is nothing but guidelines used by other people to help us. They don't define us they don't say what we are or aren't. They exist not for us but for the medical staff that treats us.
I agree, Nikki. That is how it should be. But that's not the way it feels sometimes. If I understood her correctly, Bri suggests that if we feel bad, tough. We just have our own issues. (If I misunderstood, please help me understand what you meant.) That is ludicrous. Would anybody be on this board if they didn't have issues? So now some issues are more acceptable than others. That sure gives me warm fuzzies. What have we come to? Why can't we just declare a moratorium on this label thing for a while, and talk to each others as caring humans again? Why not just leave the labels to the medical staff. If it helps them to avoid being sued, and allows them to continue treating us, so be it.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Thanks to everyone here for articulating concerns, I've recently also been feeling a lot of tension and conflict here on the board. I originally came here looking for companionship of others who share the same pain of being gender variant in a world that doesn't understand us, and also to offer support for others who are in this process. A couple of simple labels, TS, TG, TV, androgyne, etc., led me to believe I might find that community here. I regret to think I might have been wrong about that, I guess it's time to accept my status as a lower rung of the almighty trans ladder. :(
peace!
zythyra
"I live proudly in a body of my own design. I defend my right to be
complex." -Leslie Feinberg
Request To Moderators:
Could we please temporarily lock these threads dealing with the label issues to give everyone a chance to cool down? This is so emotional that I see relationships, community, and friendships deteriorating.
In their place, could we post a list of resources concerning classification (from the wiki and/or elsewhere) for everyone to read and study so that we are at least talking about the same thing from an informed standpoint?
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Before the thread is locked, I want to humbly apologize for something also. I think I may have stirred some of this up with my post "Labels" and for that I am so sorry. (Would a moderator also please lock that thread) Also if anyone got the impression that I have anything against anyone planning on, is or has already transitioned, again I'm sorry. I never meant to imply that and nothing could be farther from the truth. I have nothing but admiration for the courage and fortitude that it takes to risk everything to transition. I think people like my friends Stef, Brenda, Shannon, Sabrina and people here like Cindi are some of the bravest people in the world!
My concern has been for any younger people who may come to Susan's seeking information on where they fit in the gender spectrum. After all we do have a lot of guests here and, after reading some of the things we've said to each other, I wonder how many have run screaming into the night in horror. We know that some of them may come here believing they are one place as far as gender goes but may eventually find they are further along the line than they think. Let's think of them and not try to force them into our own ideas of what anyone else is or should be.
Again I'm sorry.
Mea Cupla
Bev
I have to add that one of the things that is concerning me is how some people quote HB standards, including #4, which specifies that non surgical TS exists, yet the same people quoting the standards say that either one goes all the way (HRT and SRS) or they're not TS. I believe there's room for all of us to exist.
peace!
zythyra
Quote from: Blair on March 05, 2007, 03:16:15 PM
My friends, I have grown concerned.
I am concerned with this recent discussion of labels, of varying degrees of ->-bleeped-<-, of categories and numbers and quizzes and results and things. It is easy to forget, in an international society so focused on numbers and results, a simple fact.
People are not numbers.
People are people.
~ Blair
And as people, we are flawed. We have doubts. We have concerns about the impact we have on others. We worry what they might think.
We have a lifetime of brainwashing to overcome.
We ask the questions in hopes of getting the answer why we are the way we are.
We categorize so we can find a group who understands us and to whom we can go when we are feeling alone.
We categorize so we know who is trying to prevent our happiness. Maybe if we find out who they are we can talk to them and ask them why.
The problems arise when we are blinded by our need to belong and become critical and intolerant towards those who aren't in our group. Then we're just as guilty as those we criticize.
Julie
Quote from: zythyra on March 06, 2007, 09:39:05 AM
I have to add that one of the things that is concerning me is how some people quote HB standards, including #4, which specifies that non surgical TS exists, yet the same people quoting the standards say that either one goes all the way (HRT and SRS) or they're not TS. I believe there's room for all of us to exist.
peace!
zythyra
I'm not sure that this is the case. I don't know that anyone has actually posted this. I can see that feelings have been hurt and I am quite frankly stunned. If I have made a statement that has hurt someone, please let me know what it is and I will see if I can adjust my thinking.
Someone mentioned that there are elitists here in the forums. Perhaps, I am one of those included in this statement. I can assure everyone that there are no elitists here. There is no conspiracy, there is no TS religion, or even much of a community. We are all an odd assortment of individuals who share only one aspect of our lives in common. For the most part, if we were to get together as a bunch, we might share very little else. None of us have anything to gain by being a "preacher" to win a following.
Those who volunteer their time here do want this forum to be a safe haven for individuals with GID and other related issues. I can assure you that we are here to help. This is not a place where we collect, count, and classify the "haves and have nots". Very few of us are qualified to tell someone whether they "are" or "are not".... especially over the airwaves of the internet. We can only share experiences.
Come on people, this is a discussion, not a religion. I know of a couple veterans who have left over all of this. And it truly is a loss to this forum. Their kindness, compassion, and experiences will no longer be shared with others walking the path. Where is the loss? I can assure you, it is not theirs. It is ours.
Cindi
Quote from: Blair on March 05, 2007, 03:16:15 PM
.......this is my soul, this is what I love, this is what I am.
Thus, a transsexual, one who has a spirit that is contradictory in overall gender to their physical sex, must transition into a state that they feel is acceptable. Whether or not this is simply living full-time and presenting as a woman, or completely transforming oneself into the opposite, satisfactory sex is as irrelevant as hair color.
To deny any human being the basic principle of self-expression is to deny them their humanity.
Blair
Blair, I'm no longer
only concerned, I'm weary. This whole competition over who is more TS is ludicrous. It's like a pregnancy contest among already pregnant women. Let the "professionals" do the test. Yes, you are all pregnant. But wait.....all you pregnant women who have not developed breasts......you're not as pregnant as some of us would like you to be. Your body does not adequately match
our personal opinion of what constitutes 'pregnant woman'.
Let's get with the program, folks, either you are, or are not TS. If acquiring a surgically-made vagina is the ideal criteria, then maybe there should be a special forum designed. Maybe we could call it "The Master TS" forum. Neovaginas only, please :police:
Oh! By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women. No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger. So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?
Quote from: Bev on March 06, 2007, 07:46:18 PM
Blair, I'm no longer only concerned, I'm weary. This whole competition over who is more TS is ludicrous. It's like a pregnancy contest among already pregnant women. Let the "professionals" do the test. Yes, you are all pregnant. But wait.....all you pregnant women who have not developed breasts......you're not as pregnant as some of us would like you to be. Your body does not adequately match our personal opinion of what constitutes 'pregnant woman'.
Let's get with the program, folks, either you are, or are not TS. If acquiring a surgically-made vagina is the ideal criteria, then maybe there should be a special forum designed. Maybe we could call it "The Master TS" forum. Neovaginas only, please :police:
Oh! By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women. No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger. So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?
I think what everyone needs to really focus on is that fact that this journey is not about gender so much as it is about self-realization and self-expression. Gender is a minor factor, in my opinion. What's important to me is a sense of satisfaction and happiness with myself. I just happen to be one of those individuals who wish to go "all the way" in transition. Do I feel the need to differentiate myself from any other transgendered individual? No. I'm me, they're they. Are we both happy? Then we've both succeeded.
Thanks, though, Bev. I'm glad there's a few out there who are willing to wake up and look past all this nonsense.
~ Blair
Quote from: Bev on March 06, 2007, 07:46:18 PM
...only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women. No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger.
No? Damn...
The labels exist for a reason. One of the genesis stories for the evolution of gender being used in the way we do now was because the language had grown cumbersome for the researchers and the readers of said research.
I do a lot of research because I lecture on the construction of gender and also gender variance (which covers almost the entire LGBTIQ rainbow although I usually focus on the transgender aspect). There are differences among those of us who are transgender. Then within that own classification there may be a breakdown of smaller subsets. Secondary transsexuals typically are okay if they do not get surgery and go on to lead a productive life without it. it is important to understand the differences so that people can get the help that they need. If you are coming here as your only source of therapy, you really need to find an actual therapist who specialises in gender therapy. This board is a collection of individuals with many opinions, often strong opinions which is expected since this is a part of a person's overall identity.
A friend of mine is a cross dresser. He is the only CD that is a real world friend of mine because he gets that there is a huge difference between our respective gender variances while many others I have met (who also CD) do not. Does that make me better than him? Absolutely not. neither one of us is better than the other on that aspect.
Labels do not have to observed by the individual. I often say that I am I. That I is a lot of things. Female, transsexual, geek, bisexual, martial artist, BDSMer, etc, etc. I do not decide which hat I am going to wear when I get up, they all apply to me. However, I am not going to try and delude myself into thinking that the labels do not exist.
When we are all the same then labels will not matter. If I happen to be alive on that day, please shoot me because I like being different.
QuoteI'm not sure that this is the case. I don't know that anyone has actually posted this. I can see that feelings have been hurt and I am quite frankly stunned. If I have made a statement that has hurt someone, please let me know what it is and I will see if I can adjust my thinking.
Cindi, I have never read anything hurtful in any of your posts, and hold you in the highest regard as a contributor to the boards. I don't remember which thread it was, but it did contain criticism of non-op TS, essentially saying that they aren't considered TS. IIRC, the same person saying this had also posted the HB definition of Level 4 non surgical TS. I perceived this as being hypocritical. Perhaps they didn't mean it as such, it's just how I perceived it. On the internet we're reduced to reading someone's words, without hearing the tone in their voice or seeing body language, so things can get misunderstood easily. Anyway, enough from me on this thread, it looks like it's simmered down, which is probably a good thing...
zythyra
What's that? I can't hear you over the drama.
Bri
Quote from: Brianna on March 07, 2007, 12:43:24 PM
What's that? I can't hear you over the drama.
Bri
hlep my earz r bleedign lolol
lol srsly i try 2 post sumthign prety and upliftign adn liek, half of every1 getz all dramarama lol
mebbe ill jsut stop tryign LOL!!!11!!11shifteleventyone!!1
~ Blair
Awwwwlllll!!! He or she is adorable! What a face!
Not that the cat IS adorable mind you, adorable in this case being used to describe this cat in this moment, and is not meant to categorize him or her into a group of ADORABLE cats as a sense of identity which is better than NON-ADORABLE CATS which shouldn't feel any less for being so.
Kate
Quote from: AnomieAssassin on March 07, 2007, 02:38:47 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi132.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq31%2Fhighlift%2F1156597670256mg9.jpg&hash=2dd22d48be2215eec2f47e0bbddd6078b1d44107)
srsly
~ Blair
mrreowww :)
Quote from: Bev on March 06, 2007, 07:46:18 PMOh! By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women. No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger. So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?[/color]
Funnily enough I measured up my boob size this morning, 'parently I'm a C. ::). Horray for hourglass shaped figures extremely massive shoulderblades and extremely pointy (needs me some progesterone) boobs that point outwards distorting my bra measures.
This made me giggle.
edit, should make a serious post so here we go:
blair: stop giving a toss.
No one can stop you from transitioning you're defined for the most part by your actions not your words if you just can't hack transition then it may not be the best idea for you, simple as. constantly getting your knickers in a twist about whether you're a real ->-bleeped-<- or not gets you nowhere fast, it doesn't get you brownie points and it does not get you empathy in large quantities. It is you and you only who decides where your life heads and if you can't take the opinion of a few trans people on a forum then you sure as hell won't be able to hack the real world because it's tough out there, people won't understand you, they'll assume you're something you're not and unless you manage to do the stealth bit allot of people will constantly see you in ways other than how you wish to be seen for the rest of your life. It's not impossible and you develop a thick skin and you're young enough to probably be able to pass without a hitch.
You cannot expect people throughout your entire life to just accept you for who you claim to be, they'll accept you for who you act like, whining and moaning about it does nothing to remedy this. you can complain about gender conformity from here to the ends of the earth but either you come off as a plausable woman or you don't, you can't complain your way out of that no matter how many clever posts you think you make.
I don't know your situation intimately and what type of stuff you're going through but I'm experienced in my own life enough to know that I shouldn't pretend to be able to judge you in any way, some people on this forum knew who I used to be elsewhere on the interwebs and gods was I an angry little twunt and I suspect if it wasn't for the fact that a few people in the community I refer to had met me in real life when I came out I suspect I would have got a "lol" as a response instead of the acceptence and help which I did receive.
Take this as you will they are just my thoughts based on my experiences from majorly turning my life around from being the angery little twunt who thought they where better than everyone else but hated everything about themselves to the person I am today who I'm fairly comfortable with.
Ulitmately, the proof is in the pudding, transition if you have the will to and if you're successful then more power to you.
edit 2: final sentiment
Transition's all about being yourself, labels mean very little as you are who you are and you just can't change it, if you feel you need to transition 100% and that deep down you're female that means you're a MTF transexual, it's not worth you getting your knickers in a twist about it.
Quote from: Mawd on March 07, 2007, 03:34:13 PM
Quote from: Bev on March 06, 2007, 07:46:18 PMOh! By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women. No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger. So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?[/color]
Funnily enough I measured up my boob size this morning, 'parently I'm a C. ::). Horray for hourglass shaped figures extremely massive shoulderblades and extremely pointy (needs me some progesterone) boobs that point outwards distorting my bra measures.
This made me giggle.
edit, should make a serious post so here we go:
blair: stop giving a toss.
No one can stop you from transitioning you're defined for the most part by your actions not your words if you just can't hack transition then it may not be the best idea for you, simple as. constantly getting your knickers in a twist about whether you're a real ->-bleeped-<- or not gets you nowhere fast, it doesn't get you brownie points and it does not get you empathy in large quantities. It is you and you only who decides where your life heads and if you can't take the opinion of a few trans people on a forum then you sure as hell won't be able to hack the real world because it's tough out there, people won't understand you, they'll assume you're something you're not and unless you manage to do the stealth bit allot of people will constantly see you in ways other than how you wish to be seen for the rest of your life. It's not impossible and you develop a thick skin and you're young enough to probably be able to pass without a hitch.
You cannot expect people throughout your entire life to just accept you for who you claim to be, they'll accept you for who you act like, whining and moaning about it does nothing to remedy this. you can complain about gender conformity from here to the ends of the earth but either you come off as a plausable woman or you don't, you can't complain your way out of that no matter how many clever posts you think you make.
I don't know your situation intimately and what type of stuff you're going through but I'm experienced in my own life enough to know that I shouldn't pretend to be able to judge you in any way, some people on this forum knew who I used to be elsewhere on the interwebs and gods was I an angry little twunt and I suspect if it wasn't for the fact that a few people in the community I refer to had met me in real life when I came out I suspect I would have got a "lol" as a response instead of the acceptence and help which I did receive.
Take this as you will they are just my thoughts based on my experiences from majorly turning my life around from being the angery little twunt who thought they where better than everyone else but hated everything about themselves to the person I am today who I'm fairly comfortable with.
Ulitmately, the proof is in the pudding, transition if you have the will to and if you're successful then more power to you.
I have absoloutely no idea as to what inspired this response. Did you even read what I wrote?
The topic had nothing to do with me personally, other than the fact that I think people around here seem to be a little too focused on tiers/labels and a little less focused on community/love/acceptance lately.
Matter of fact, this kind of reply is exactly what I'm talking about. There's a whisper of ego in this "well, maybe this transition thing isn't for you" statement. I've noticed a lot of people here are very quick to point that particular finger. Why? I don't really understand it. We are who we are.
I'd like to directly quote your final sentiment, though, for emphasis.
"Transition's all about being yourself, labels mean very little as you are who you are and you just can't change it, if you feel you need to transition 100% and that deep down you're female that means you're a MTF transexual, it's not worth you getting your knickers in a twist about it."
My knickers aren't in a twist about it. You just summed up the entire original topic that I wrote. It was an observation and an expression of my concern. Did you read it, or do we use everything around here as a pretext to make things personal?
I'm kind of disappointed. I write to inspire, and most of what I get in response is dramazorslollol.
Read posts before you go making personal accusations and asessments of other people, please. I am completely at peace, really, this entire process is something that I "hack" quite well. I'm here to help and to get feedback from like-minds. However, this becomes difficult when people completely misunderstand what I write.
~ Blair
Yes, but the round waffles are infinitely superior to the square ones. That's why I have a ROUND waffle machine and use only REAL maple flavored sugar free syrup! >:D
Blair, I betcha didn't think you would ever start another one of those "label" threads, didja? :D
On the other hand, as long as we remain cognizant of the labels' limitations, they can and do serve a purpose. They're like any other tool. They can hurt, they can help.
hugs & smiles
helen
Quote from: AnomieAssassin on March 07, 2007, 06:54:35 PM
Also, this thread is now about waffles and their obvious superiority to pancakes.
I Never waffle on a subject. French Toast is superior to both. I fed all three to Harry Benjamin, and he wrote a 23 page report supporting this decision. So.....REAL WOMEN EAT FRENCH TOAST!
Bev
Quote from: HelenW on March 07, 2007, 09:29:14 PM
Yes, but the round waffles are infinitely superior to the square ones. That's why I have a ROUND waffle machine and use only REAL maple flavored sugar free syrup! >:D
Ah but do you eat them for breakfast or for a later meal as the Belgiums intended.
GD&R
Bev
Quote from: HelenW on March 07, 2007, 09:29:14 PM
On the other hand, as long as we remain cognizant of the labels' limitations, they can and do serve a purpose. They're like any other tool. They can hurt, they can help.
Absoloutely, Helen. The problem lies in when we let the tool use us, rather than vice versa. I'm not sure how else to put it. I see that a real issue we're overcoming as people today is our obsession with placing artificial things and concepts above human feelings. It's understandable. After all, our eyes look out and not in. It requires a certain degree of blindness to search the self for the answer, rather than rely on external sources.
At the mentioning waffles, I can't help but remember one of my favorite Simpsons quotes.
"I hate it when the waffles stick together!"
"Well, stickin' together's what good waffles do."
Blueberries.
~ Blair
Quote from: Blair on March 07, 2007, 09:38:02 PM
.........It requires a certain degree of blindness to search the self for the answer, rather than rely on external sources.
At the mentioning waffles, I can't help but remember one of my favorite Simpsons quotes.
...stickin' together's what good waffles do."
~ Blair
Blair......eloquently simple, simply eloquent. Thanks :)
I'm just going to blush for once.
Thanks... I find that my immense knowledge of cartoon quotes serves my purposes quite well.
Mu ha ha ha ha...
~ Blair
QuoteI Never waffle on a subject. French Toast is superior to both. I fed all three to Harry Benjamin, and he wrote a 23 page report supporting this decision. So.....REAL WOMEN EAT FRENCH TOAST!
Bev
This made me laugh so hard I am crying! Thank you, thank you so much, I really needed that! :-*
Quote from: Bev on March 07, 2007, 09:29:34 PM
I Never waffle on a subject. French Toast is superior to both. I fed all three to Harry Benjamin, and he wrote a 23 page report supporting this decision. So.....REAL WOMEN EAT FRENCH TOAST!
Bev
So if Harry Benjamin (a man) thought french toast was superior, how does that make it a woman's food? I think he only wrote the report because you threatened to feed him more French Toast. >:D
Melissa
Quote from: HelenW on March 07, 2007, 09:29:14 PM
Yes, but the round waffles are infinitely superior to the square ones. That's why I have a ROUND waffle machine and use only REAL maple flavored sugar free syrup! >:D
You better mean real maple syrup. Not the awful stuff with fake flavors and artificial sweeteners. Real maple syrup is straight-up awesome.
Quote from: Melissa on March 08, 2007, 02:59:21 PM
Quote from: Bev on March 07, 2007, 09:29:34 PM
I Never waffle on a subject. French Toast is superior to both. I fed all three to Harry Benjamin, and he wrote a 23 page report supporting this decision. So.....REAL WOMEN EAT FRENCH TOAST!
Bev
So if Harry Benjamin (a man) thought french toast was superior, how does that make it a woman's food? I think he only wrote the report because you threatened to feed him more French Toast. >:D
Melissa
Ahh....but Mellissa, you're so right. Harry Benjamin
is a man, how do all his opinions make them womens' opinions? My gender physician is a woman :)
BTW....I didn't threaten him, I offered, and he accepted >:D .
[/quote]
Blair, I'm no longer
only concerned, I'm weary. This whole competition over who is more TS is ludicrous. It's like a pregnancy contest among already pregnant women. Let the "professionals" do the test. Yes, you are all pregnant. But wait.....all you pregnant women who have not developed breasts......you're not as pregnant as some of us would like you to be. Your body does not adequately match
our personal opinion of what constitutes 'pregnant woman'.
Let's get with the program, folks, either you are, or are not TS. If acquiring a surgically-made vagina is the ideal criteria, then maybe there should be a special forum designed. Maybe we could call it "The Master TS" forum. Neovaginas only, please :police:
Oh! By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women. No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger. So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?
[/quote]
Help me, help me! I just got hit by the 'smite' button for being rude. Bad Bev....RUUUDE Bev. I'll never get over it. Never. How will I tell my SO? What will I tell my therapist? *sigh* :o ??? ::)
i'm also [deeply] concerned; this thread has become redundant, boring, & old.
Quote from: Katia on March 08, 2007, 07:06:41 PM
i'm also [deeply] concerned; this thread has become redundant, boring, & old.
Although this observation is stated as Universal Fact, one cannot but notice that it is a [personal] and subjective attribution to a thread which cannot be universalized for ALL readers of said thread.
Indeed, there may be redudant, boring... and oh yes... even OLD components (raises hand) to be found in it's diverse manifestions. But to consider the ENTIRE thread, as an entity in whole, to BE, as a form of identity, "redundant, boring, and old," may be unfair and unjust to it's overall existence as a dynamic, living work of art and creativity.
Kate
Quote from: Kate on March 08, 2007, 07:27:27 PM
Although this observation is stated as Universal Fact, one cannot but notice that it is a [personal] and subjective attribution to a thread which cannot be universalized for ALL readers of said thread.
Indeed, there may be redudant, boring... and oh yes... even OLD components (raises hand) to be found in it's diverse manifestions. But to consider the ENTIRE thread, as an entity in whole, to BE, as a form of identity, "redundant, boring, and old," may be unfair and unjust to it's overall existence as a dynamic, living work of art and creativity.
Huh? :o ??? ::)
Quote from: Katia on March 08, 2007, 07:06:41 PM
i'm also [deeply] concerned; this thread has become redundant, boring, & old.
Listen people. When Katia's telling you that you've gone on too long I suggest you listen. She is the "Queen B!tch," and it's unwise to upset her. ;)
Bri, reverently.
Quote from: briannalisten people. When Katia's telling you that you've gone on too long I suggest you listen. She is the "Queen B!tch," and it's unwise to upset her.
queen of [ALL] b!tches, important detail. ;)
quick! i need a translator! >:D
Quote from: Katia on March 08, 2007, 07:06:41 PM
i'm also [deeply] concerned; this thread has become redundant, boring, & old.
Gosh, and here I thought I was being poignant.
Bleh.
~ Blair
Quote from: Katia on March 08, 2007, 07:06:41 PM
i'm also [deeply] concerned; this thread has become redundant, boring, & old.
Not me! I'm just [deeply] concerned; this thread has become redundant, boring, & old.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Bev on March 08, 2007, 06:47:22 PM
Help me, help me! I just got hit by the 'smite' button for being rude. Bad Bev....RUUUDE Bev. I'll never get over it. Never. How will I tell my SO? What will I tell my therapist? *sigh* :o ??? ::)
That's funny. You got a smite and an applaud for the same post.
Lines are being drawn! Noooo!
~ Blair
I think part of the problem is that we are a minority of a minority. In such, makes each and everyone of us an individual. Then we try to label each other. None Op. Pre Op, Post Op, TS, CD, TV, TG, IS, ect. Soon we will have more labels, then people with gender identity disorder. (sarcasm)
This is what I tell people in person who ask about me.
So what are you then?
I am a Lesbian male to female transsexual post op woman with a little extra.
What..a little extra. What is post op? What does that mean?
Post op means I have had some surgery.
What about the little extra, hehe
It is very personal.
But how does that work?
Well how does it work when you're with your partner?
What, hehehe. I'm not going to tell you.
Well now you know I feel on that subject. You could ask my girl friend maybe.
No, I'm ok with that. I do find it very interesting.
Indeed.
I like my coffee with sugar. You can take yours have ever you take it. We can still have coffee together.