Link (http://www.tbnweekly.com/editorial/readers_poll/content_articles/030807_pol-07.txt)
I do have a few questions though. Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin? I honestly cannot remember any references to transsexuals at all. And for those that say it was not considered, remember Ecclesiates 1:9-11 where it says there is nothing new under the sun.
[...]
Show me where it is denounced or called an abomination or ridiculed. It is not there. If you say God did not discuss it so as not to confuse people, then please tell me what is being described in Ezekial. That book is the most confusing I have ever read.
as an atheist, i can't speak for everyone, but i dont believe in the concept of sin. i think some things are wrong, in that they [hurt other people], but i dont believe that some things are just wrong on principle if they don't hurt anyone. transsexualism doesnt hurt anyone; you just do what you have to do because there aren't other alternatives. i ask the christians, if you save somebody's life...would you consider it a sin? what about if you save your own life?
Yes I am a sinner....I hold my hands up.
I have defied God by wanting to improve my life and find happiness before I eventually die. Well thats my choice and no one will ever tell me that it is wrong.
I have never read the bible and never will,like Katia, I am an atheist mainly because I dont believe with all the poverty, war, murders and disasters that befall this world there is any kind of supreme being.
Beside you can comit murder , repent and be a born again Christian, I am a born again woman.
Buffy
Quote from: Buffy on March 09, 2007, 01:50:21 AM
Yes I am a sinner....I hold my hands up.
I have defied God by wanting to improve my life and find happiness before I eventually die. Well thats my choice and no one will ever tell me that it is wrong.
I have never read the bible and never will,like Katia, I am an atheist mainly because I dont believe with all the poverty, war, murders and disasters that befall this world there is any kind of supreme being.
Beside you can comit murder , repent and be a born again Christian, I am a born again woman.
Buffy
yeah!
TSism doesn't seem to be specifically covered, so when I'm condemned by my baptist friend it's usually for less-specific things like "God doesn't make mistakes" and "defiling the body gave you."
Another christian explained to me that God has defined some fairly specific roles for men and women, roles for which it is sinful to cross. And since they don't believe our gender identity is seperate from our physical sex, if we transition and begin functioning as women, to them we're still men now PRETENDING to be women, sinfully adopting women's roles.
I also hear "you just know when something is a sin, God is trying to tell you it is - why else would you feel so ashamed about it, why did you feel a need to hide this?"
Kate
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
I also hear "you just know when something is a sin, God is trying to tell you it is - why else would you feel so ashamed about it, why did you feel a need to hide this?"
Kate
Uhhhh, so I won't have to listen to jerks like you dishing out the sort of diatribe you are now spewing? Duh!
Cindi
LIT,
There is no direct prohibition of transsexualism, however Deuteronomy 22-5 prohibits women from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a man" and men from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a woman".
I did however find this.
Quote from: Mathew 19-12
Mathew v 19-12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
This however seems to condone what we do.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
"God doesn't make mistakes"
Right, he made me female on purpose.
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM"defiling the body gave you."
However, they can condone somebody surgically correcting some birth defect such as a hernia, cleft pallate, and heck, even giving a baby a circumcision.
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
Another christian explained to me that God has defined some fairly specific roles for men and women, roles for which it is sinful to cross.
Which is why we must now stop sinning and by being in male roles and go back to our female roles.
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
I also hear "you just know when something is a sin, God is trying to tell you it is - why else would you feel so ashamed about it, why did you feel a need to hide this?"
Hiding it was the sin. You felt so ashamed about hiding it because hiding it was wrong, that you had to finally stop hiding and be who you really are.
Melissa
Quote from: Melissa on March 10, 2007, 02:58:12 AM
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM"defiling the body gave you."
However, they can condone somebody surgically correcting some birth defect such as a hernia, cleft pallate, and heck, even giving a baby a circumcision.
Melissa
Or... fixing a large nose, small breasts, plumping lips, sucking the fat out of your gut, or ironing out those facial wrinkles. How could I resist?
>:D
Cindi
As a Christian, I think that God loves all of us equally. Does gender/sex matter to Him? absolutely not! He's the father of love and does not pay attention to trivial things like male, female, TV, TS or whatever. He's a supreme being, and as such he behaves.
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
I think that God did make a mistake. Yes, she decided too late that she would someday regret not having more women in heaven. So she made us.
;)
Cindi
(tongue in cheek- you fellas are in there too somehow... I just need to do lunch with god next week to find out what she had in mind for you)
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 10, 2007, 03:37:41 AM
I think that God did make a mistake. Yes, she decided too late that she would someday regret not having more women in heaven. So she made us.
;)
Cindi
Aw! I could just hug you and kiss ya!
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM
....however Deuteronomy 22-5 prohibits women from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a man" and men from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a woman".
I always love it when someone (Not you Elizabeth) throws Deuteronomy 22-5 at me as a verse to condemn crossdressing. I always ask if they have read the entirety of chapter 22 and start asking why they haven't followed the remainder of the laws. I'm no expert on the Old Testament but some rabbinical scholars as early as the 13th century have stated that 22-5 was to keep men from disguising themselves as women and sneaking into the womens tents and to prevent women from putting on armament to fight the enemies of the Hebrews. I don't know if that's true but since the rest of chapter 22 is ignored, I'm not going to worry to much about verse 5.
And as for any Bible verse that condemn's transsexualism, I'm not aware of one.
Bev
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM
Quote from: Mathew 19-12
Mathew v 19-12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
This however seems to condone what we do.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth,
I forgot about that passage! Thank you!
Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 10, 2007, 06:25:12 AM
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM
....however Deuteronomy 22-5 prohibits women from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a man" and men from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a woman".
I always love it when someone (Not you Elizabeth) throws Deuteronomy 22-5 at me as a verse to condemn crossdressing. I always ask if they have read the entirety of chapter 22 and start asking why they haven't followed the remainder of the laws. I'm no expert on the Old Testament but some rabbinical scholars as early as the 13th century have stated that 22-5 was to keep men from disguising themselves as women and sneaking into the womens tents and to prevent women from putting on armament to fight the enemies of the Hebrews.
Beverly Ann,
I found the same information online posted by a rabbi. My thought is that if
anyone is going to know the Old Testament, it would be a rabbi! Besides, the early Hebrews often disguised themselves as women to infiltrate a town. If it was prohibited, the early Hebrews would
never have crossdressed - regardles of the reason.
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
TSism doesn't seem to be specifically covered, so when I'm condemned by my baptist friend it's usually for less-specific things like "God doesn't make mistakes" and "defiling the body gave you."
Kate
Kate,
I got this from my brother & his wife when I came out to them. There is medical evidence coming out now showing that transexuality is a physiological rather than a psychological condition. I know that doesn't matter for most of us, but it was important for me - maybe its because I am the child of a psychiatrist.
I look at my transexuality as a gift. Who better to be a mediator and peacemaker than someone who has walked both sides of the sexuality line?
Chaunte
I really enjoyed reading this. I'm glad that Elizabeth brought up about Deuteronomy 22-5, because a lot of people use that verse as a reference against us and what we do. But I really enjoyed reading Beverly Ann's comments to it. Now here's a tottally different angle: The Old Testement was written to install laws upon the people, and that was done before Jesus Christ was born. After Jesus Christ was born, we moved into the New Testament, for which I feel that the New Testament replaced the Old Testament, so what was written has no barring. These are just my thoughts though . . . But as for it being a sin, all that we are doing is expressing an inner feeling from ourselves. Tell me where lies the sin in that?
Gina
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 10, 2007, 03:37:41 AM
I think that God did make a mistake. Yes, she decided too late that she would someday regret not having more women in heaven. So she made us.
I LOVE that explanation. :D
Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 10, 2007, 06:25:12 AM
I always love it when someone (Not you Elizabeth) throws Deuteronomy 22-5 at me as a verse to condemn crossdressing. I always ask if they have read the entirety of chapter 22 and start asking why they haven't followed the remainder of the laws. I'm no expert on the Old Testament but some rabbinical scholars as early as the 13th century have stated that 22-5 was to keep men from disguising themselves as women and sneaking into the womens tents and to prevent women from putting on armament to fight the enemies of the Hebrews. I don't know if that's true but since the rest of chapter 22 is ignored, I'm not going to worry to much about verse 5.
And as for any Bible verse that condemn's transsexualism, I'm not aware of one.
If you go back and look at the original translation (I did), if memory serves me correctly, it actually only talks about women not wearing a man's sword or clothes. It actually doesn't talk about men wearing women's clothes. That was a mistranslation.
Melissa
That is a Scripturally indefensible position and I have a very good conceptual and working knowledge of the same.
From the standpoint of a thinking woman and a Christian, the pitifully weak attempts made by many to mis-apply Scripture to 'prove' that TS is in reality, abomination and sin, are intellectually disgusting and spiritually appalling.
There is simply nothing in Scripture that condemns "neurological mis-wiring".
Did any of us ask for this???
I know that I sure didn't stand in line at the local K-Mart, trying to acquire it.
Their pitifully selfish and subjective analyses and blindly adhered to mis-applications are indeed, intellectually and spiritually 'deficit' and in reality, abstractly, are a manifestation of blind hatred and rank prejudice.
Quote
The Old Testement was written to install laws upon the people, and that was done before Jesus Christ was born. After Jesus Christ was born, we moved into the New Testament, for which I feel that the New Testament replaced the Old Testament, so what was written has no barring.
Gina,
By my understanding you are correct. But that still doesn't stop people from using it to condemn.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 10, 2007, 03:37:41 AM
(tongue in cheek- you fellas are in there too somehow... I just need to do lunch with god next week to find out what she had in mind for you)
(Also tongue in cheek) Hmmm, maybe the opposite of Islam. Instead of 70 virgins (or whatever the number is) you martyrs get 70 guys?
Shut up Beverly.
OK, I will.
GD&R
Bev
Quote from: Melissa on March 10, 2007, 02:58:12 AM
However, they can condone somebody surgically correcting some birth defect such as a hernia, cleft pallate, and heck, even giving a baby a circumcision.
No, see it was explained to me
"that's different. You may have been born with this urge or feeling, but it's no different than the urge to lie, cheat or steal. It's evil and sinful, which is why you feel ashamed to tell people about it. Just as with all sinful impulses, with God's help, you can resist giving in to it."They do tend to get confused about why it's OK to wear eyeglasses and such. If nothing else, it's not SINFUL to wear the glasses, but they seem pretty stuck when it comes to explaining why it's OK for them to correct how God made them. It seems like as long as the correction itself isn't sinful, you can contradict how God intended you to be.
I don't know, I don't get it, I'm just trying to understand them so I can hopefully avoid being killed for being an "abomination" and all.
Kate
Ooooooooooh Lordy!! say it ain't so!! For I am a sinner!! Between listening to that satanic metal music and being TS I am surely condemned to the fires of Hell! LOL NOT!!! Come on!! With all of the truly awful things that people do, what is so bad about someone being who they TRULY are? All we want is to be happy AND what we are doing to achieve that happiness is not hurting anyone (well, you know what I mean). So, if anyone tells me that I am a sinner simply because of who I am then I would just BONK them on the noggin and say: NU UH!! :P
"I read, I studied, I prayed, and in the end, I got a sex change."
I love it!
Julie
Quote from: Julie Marie on March 10, 2007, 11:38:45 AM
"I read, I studied, I prayed, and in the end, I got a sex change."
I love it!
Julie
Julie Marie,
lol! THe first thing I thought of was Caesar's famous words: I came. I saw. I conquered!
Veni. Vedi. Vici!Sooooo.....
Veni! Vidi! Quoniam mulier!I came! I saw! I became a woman!
I equate being a transsexual with being beaten to within an inch of my life on a daily basis. Everyone has their breaking point. I'm pretty tolerant. I got beyond repeated suicide attempts and genital mutilation as a child. Once I found I truly had a way out I couldn't take it any more. Transitioning saved my life. I think if there is a god, it would approve.
I challenge any non-TS to the same test and see if they don't seek to escape the pain.
Karen Lyn :icon_female:
QuoteI'm no expert on the Old Testament but some rabbinical scholars as early as the 13th century have stated that 22-5 was to keep men from disguising themselves as women and sneaking into the womens tents and to prevent women from putting on armament to fight the enemies of the Hebrews.
Some rabbis also theorized that the meaning regarded dressing as another gender with the intent of committing a crime. I don't have a copy of it, but I've also read that it had to do with not wearing vestments of the other gender for prayer.
zythyra
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM
Quote from: Mathew 19-12
Mathew v 19-12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
This however seems to condone what we do.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Actually, I've heard the same quote used to argue that the Bible recognizes and approves of asexuality. In context, it seems more to refer to that, since they're talking about marriage, but I have no idea what the original said, or what "eunuch," which could reasonably refer either to someone without sexual desire or to someone who is "neither male nor female," or both (I seem to remember hearing that a disproportionate number of transsexual and transgendered people are asexual) was translated from. Here's the context:
Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
--Matthew 19:3-12, KJV
I spent 12 years at a Christian indoctorinization school. EVERYONE knows the Bible is the word of God, and everyone knows that the gays and the lesbians will be thrown into the lake of fire.
I fully support the damnation of all transsexuals.
Bri
Quote from: Brianna on March 11, 2007, 11:54:51 AM
I spent 12 years at a Christian indoctorinization school. EVERYONE knows the Bible is the word of God, and everyone knows that the gays and the lesbians will be thrown into the lake of fire.
I fully support the damnation of all transsexuals.
Bri
I invite you to my open house in hell. We'll be serving chocolate chip ice cream!
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 11, 2007, 02:11:23 PM
Quote from: Brianna on March 11, 2007, 11:54:51 AM
I spent 12 years at a Christian indoctorinization school. EVERYONE knows the Bible is the word of God, and everyone knows that the gays and the lesbians will be thrown into the lake of fire.
I fully support the damnation of all transsexuals.
Bri
I invite you to my open house in hell. We'll be serving chocolate chip ice cream!
Cindi
Wouldn't that melt in hell?
Quoteauthor=ChildOfTheLight link=topic=11066.msg81007#msg81007
Quote
I invite you to my open house in hell. We'll be serving chocolate chip ice cream!
Cindi
Wouldn't that melt in hell?
<grin> Na... all the hot air is going to heaven ;)
Cindi
Ice cream! How sinful! See you there! I'll bring my Madonna CDs.
Bri
ps- Besides. Being around a bunch of straightlaced Christians? For all eternity? THAT is my idea of hell.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 11, 2007, 02:19:27 PM
Quoteauthor=ChildOfTheLight link=topic=11066.msg81007#msg81007
Quote
I invite you to my open house in hell. We'll be serving chocolate chip ice cream!
Cindi
Wouldn't that melt in hell?
<grin> Na... all the hot air is going to heaven ;)
Cindi
In that case...
Brianna, God hates androgynes too, right? ;)
Why not. Androgyones are going to fry too! Basically, anyone that didn't like the movie "Passion of the Christ."
Bri ;)
Quote from: Brianna on March 11, 2007, 02:54:14 PM
Basically, anyone that didn't like the movie "Passion of the Christ."
Yes, but what if a TS did like it?
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 10:41:27 AM
No, see it was explained to me "that's different. You may have been born with this urge or feeling, but it's no different than the urge to lie, cheat or steal.
Just as taking medicine for a headache is, taking anti-depressants for depression, a person with ADD taking medication, and people with schizophenia taking anti-psychotic drugs is. You can not physically see any of these ailments, yet many of these people are not adverse to treatment. It's a double-standard.
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 10:41:27 AM
It's evil and sinful, which is why you feel ashamed to tell people about it. Just as with all sinful impulses, with God's help, you can resist giving in to it."
This is simply a self-fullfilling prophecy. They will harangue you about being afraid to tell them something that will cause them to harangue you.
Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 10:41:27 AM
They do tend to get confused about why it's OK to wear eyeglasses and such. If nothing else, it's not SINFUL to wear the glasses, but they seem pretty stuck when it comes to explaining why it's OK for them to correct how God made them. It seems like as long as the correction itself isn't sinful, you can contradict how God intended you to be.
I don't know, I don't get it, I'm just trying to understand them so I can hopefully avoid being killed for being an "abomination" and all.
There is nowhere in the bible where it explains that being a TS is a sin. It also does not explain what a man or a woman is. It does not say a woman has a vagina and ovaries or that a man has a penis and testicles. I believe the equivalent of IS and TS are mentioned in the bible, but they are referred to as eunuch.
Quote from: Matthew 19:12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
When it says somebody is born a eunuch, it is simply saying the person is IS and when it says they are made that way by men, I believe it is referring to a TS. You can look through the entire bible about eunuchs and it talks about them being servants. This was the custom at the time, not something that was ever commanded by the bible. The custom now is for us to blend into society as men and women. Nowhere in the entire bible does it ever condemn eunuchs.
Melissa
Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 10, 2007, 10:38:49 AM
Quote
The Old Testement was written to install laws upon the people, and that was done before Jesus Christ was born. After Jesus Christ was born, we moved into the New Testament, for which I feel that the New Testament replaced the Old Testament, so what was written has no barring.
Gina,
By my understanding you are correct. But that still doesn't stop people from using it to condemn.
You are so right there Beverly Ann. Any one can take anything from any time period and will use it whether it still holds ground or not.
Gina
Quote from: LostInTime on March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM
Link (http://www.tbnweekly.com/editorial/readers_poll/content_articles/030807_pol-07.txt)
I do have a few questions though. Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin? I honestly cannot remember any references to transsexuals at all. And for those that say it was not considered, remember Ecclesiates 1:9-11 where it says there is nothing new under the sun.
[...]
Show me where it is denounced or called an abomination or ridiculed. It is not there. If you say God did not discuss it so as not to confuse people, then please tell me what is being described in Ezekial. That book is the most confusing I have ever read.
Nowhere, and I study Scripture.
But then neither is 'non-Hodgkin's lymphoma' and the etiology of the two are suspected to be the same.
Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 13, 2007, 06:36:41 PM
Quote from: LostInTime on March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM
Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin?
Nowhere, and I study Scripture.
But then neither is 'non-Hodgkin's lymphoma' and the etiology of the two are suspected to be the same.
Rhonda, are you saying the causation of transsexualism and non-hodgkin's lymphoma are suspected to be the same? If you are, please cite your source because I would love to read that.
Beverly
Quote from: BeverlyAnn on April 13, 2007, 07:30:30 PM
Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 13, 2007, 06:36:41 PM
Quote from: LostInTime on March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM
Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin?
Nowhere, and I study Scripture.
But then neither is 'non-Hodgkin's lymphoma' and the etiology of the two are suspected to be the same.
Rhonda, are you saying the causation of transsexualism and non-hodgkin's lymphoma are suspected to be the same? If you are, please cite your source because I would love to read that.
Beverly
Here are a couple of them:http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/EDs-PWG-16jun01.htm (http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/EDs-PWG-16jun01.htm)
http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/ (http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/)
The subject of "Endocrine Disrupters" and the ubiquity of the problem is actually scary.
It is a sobering and extensive study. :'(
LOL i am a sinner!!! like a major sinner! but not from being ts....
i am not religious but, i came across some religious
stuff in our defense. you might find it interesting...
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. [The Bible, John, 9:3].
"... in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." [Matthew 7:1]
AND there is this reference....
In the Hebrew scriptures, consider Deborah, the warrior, poet and judge of Israel. The eunuch in Queen Esther's court (without whom, the entire story would have fallen apart), and the role of eunuchs in the downfall of Jezebel. We have God's promise to eunuch's in Isaiah that they will have a part in the temple (something excluded by the Levitical law).
And then there is this obscure reference in a critical passage in Mark 14.:
So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."
This "man carrying a jar of water" is curious, because typically this was the exclusive work of women and children in Jesus' time (as it was in Zambia when I lived there as a missionary). I imagine it might have be more rare to witness such a man then, than being told to look for and follow a man today in a US city carrying a large flowered purse.
Why was this man carrying water? Why was he acting outside of the prescribed gender roles? It must have been rare or else the disciples could have followed any number of men instead of this one. We don't know, but it raises interesting questions.
AND there is this argument, although i would never describe myself - or any of you - as eunuchs...
The only inference one can make relates to trans women who were those eunuchs who had themselves castrated (not born eunichoid — intersex — or forced into eunuchood). Isaiah and, I believe, Jesus speak approvingly of these individuals, considering them worthy of a monument and a name "better than sons and daughters," an "everlasting name" that shall not perish (Isaiah 56:5).
so all you biblical scholars, have fun with all that. i don't own one. i just don't trust the men who did the interpretation or the translation....
Quote from: LostInTime on March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM
Link (http://www.tbnweekly.com/editorial/readers_poll/content_articles/030807_pol-07.txt)
I do have a few questions though. Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin? I honestly cannot remember any references to transsexuals at all. And for those that say it was not considered, remember Ecclesiates 1:9-11 where it says there is nothing new under the sun.
[...]
Show me where it is denounced or called an abomination or ridiculed. It is not there. If you say God did not discuss it so as not to confuse people, then please tell me what is being described in Ezekial. That book is the most confusing I have ever read.
I challenged two ministers and other christians of the faith [church of Christ] about the absence of categoric and unequivocal condemnation of my TS, as stated or implied by Scripture.
The two ministers never responded to me and the other christians fumbled with total misapplications of the same Scripture. Neither of these is acceptable.
The non-response of the two ministers constitutes a tacit admission of the weakness of their positions.
God hasn't been very clear on a number of current issues in his "word" has he? I suppose that's what you get when you have a gentile emperor put the little book together for you.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on April 14, 2007, 03:33:47 AM
God hasn't been very clear on a number of current issues in his "word" has he? I suppose that's what you get when you have a gentile emperor put the little book together for you.
Cindi
Ahhhhh...derision of mine [and others'] faith, eh, Cindi?? >:D
Harsh retribution [a bag of doggie poo left in flames on your porch, perhaps >:D] is clearly in order.
Seriously, it does not need to be addressed in Scripture; it's not an 'issue'. Neither are 'palsy', infirmities, leprosy, epilepsy, et al and these are "mentioned" in the same Scripture.
Why should these be an 'issue'? If anything, such are simply acknowledged to exist and occur.
God expects one to actually use good sense and to love Him and others enough to make proper discernments."And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment,..." Philippians 1:9, NASB
These ministers and christians know this verse [and numerous others] but if they are either intellectually lazy or are not interested in truth, they put on the rhetorical 'blinders' and pretend such like these simply do not exist [or have no force].
And then we are made to suffer accordingly and I would gently ask,
"Does their maltreatment of us emanate from God or man"?
Quotemaltreatment of us emanate from God or man?
I hope that is actually never EVER in doubt.
Believe me, if you piss off 'God' you will know. YOU WILL KNOW.
But that's the thing,
*smile* she realizes you are children. To the good fortune of many MANY of those I have met I must say.
*shrug*In blindness walk the faithless.
he sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
he tries to tell me what I put inside of me
he got the answers to ease my curiosity
he dreamed a god up and called it christianity
god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I'll see you there
he flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
he made a virus that would kill off all the swine
his perfect kingdom of killing, suffering, and pain
demands devotion, atrocities done in his name
god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I'll see you there
your god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I'll see you there
god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I'll see you there
(your god is dead) god is dead
(and no one cares) and no one cares
(drowning in his own hypocrisy) if there is a hell
(see you) I'll see you there (you there)
Quote from: LostInTime on April 14, 2007, 09:28:19 AM
he sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
he tries to tell me what I put inside of me
he got the answers to ease my curiosity
he dreamed a god up and called it christianity
god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I'll see you there
he flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
he made a virus that would kill off all the swine
his perfect kingdom of killing, suffering, and pain
demands devotion, atrocities done in his name
god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I'll see you there
your god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I'll see you there
god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I'll see you there
(your god is dead) god is dead
(and no one cares) and no one cares
(drowning in his own hypocrisy) if there is a hell
(see you) I'll see you there (you there)
I have heard a number say to the effect, over the years,
"I want to go to Hell, because all of my friends will be there!"
But it is an ignorant [as in, deficit of knowledge] statement based solely upon the experiences acquired while living in the corporeal state of existence. Death is 'merely' a translation from state to state, from the corporeal to the spiritual, a completely different mode of existence.
Corporeal life experience is meaningless in that realm; the 'rules' are totally different.
And once that translation from state to state [physical death] is made, there is no going back to change things.
And it is an eternal realm.
transsexuality is a sin. im a sinner, any questions? ::)
Quote from: Katia on April 14, 2007, 07:56:58 PM
transsexuality is a sin. im a sinner, any questions? ::)
Well, that makes two of us, sweetie.
In this case, "Repentance is Futile" - and quite unnecessary.
Quote from: Kiera on April 15, 2007, 05:30:12 AM
Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM. . . and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Oh, I see - so as long as we're celibate - achmm, like a lot of Catholic priests - then we're OK huh?
Doesn't confession fix a lot of sins? :icon_bunch:
But hon, that verse [Matthew 19:12] bears no application to us, neither is it a justification for religious celibacy.
Nothing in Scripture applies to our plight nor lot in life - nor should it.
If God made you a man, it's a sin to change into a woman is the same kind of logic used when saying, "if God had wanted man to fly he would have given him wings," isn't it? If that's true we better stop flying or were all going to hell!
Quote from: Jonie on April 15, 2007, 11:01:46 AM
If God made you a man, it's a sin to change into a woman is the same kind of logic used when saying, "if God had wanted man to fly he would have given him wings," isn't it? If that's true we better stop flying or were all going to hell!
Good one Jonie
Quote from: jeri on April 13, 2007, 11:41:54 PM
So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you.......
Why was this man carrying water? Why was he acting outside of the prescribed gender roles? It must have been rare or else the disciples could have followed any number of men instead of this one.
Jeri, I happened to be in a position today to pose this question to four ministers (three lesbian, 1 straight) and they were all rather startled in that they had never thought of it from this point of view. Of course they were all familiar with the verse in connection with Easter. But when I pointed it out to them that the man was acting against gender roles of the time, they all agreed that it's well within the realm of possibility that the person was TG.
Beverly
Thank you for bringing this up again Beverly. I must admit I scanned over some of the posts and missed Jeri's reference to the man carrying water. Very interesting. I'll have to mention it to some of my pastor friends too.
Debbie
Quote from: Katia on April 14, 2007, 07:56:58 PM
transsexuality is a sin. im a sinner, any questions? ::)
Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 15, 2007, 05:11:09 AM
Quote from: Katia on April 14, 2007, 07:56:58 PM
transsexuality is a sin. im a sinner, any questions? ::)
Well, that makes two of us, sweetie.
In this case, "Repentance is Futile" - and quite unnecessary.
That makes three of us! I am just sick and tired of this non-sense! >:( If I go to hell when I die, so be it!!! >:(
tink :icon_chick:
Bah, if anyone 'goes to hell' (closer I think is to be left behind) it will be for your totality of existence upon this planet, not just the actions of any single life.
But, transsexualism a sin? *cough* Uh, no.
Any situation you find yourself in that is not of your doing is no sin; How could it be?
Hug those that call you a sinner, and sorrow for them for they do not understand.
Quote from: Jonie on April 15, 2007, 11:01:46 AM
If God made you a man, it's a sin to change into a woman is the same kind of logic used when saying, "if God had wanted man to fly he would have given him wings," isn't it? If that's true we better stop flying or were all going to hell!
I have been assailed by this objection, myself.
But it is a specious and overly simplistic 'argument' based upon mere emotion and neither logic nor ratiocination.
My brother was born male, but also with epilepsy; why should his neurological issue or 'birth defect' be 'acceptable' and be treated with compassion and legitimacy, whereas mine is somehow 'morally unacceptable'?
Lo, with force and conviction I would ask "WHY??"
Not one Christian to date has adduced solid and substantive Scriptural evidence where God 'legislates' against what I have barely survived through for over forty years. My answer to these?
"Either adduce solid and substantive Scriptural evidence which Divinely militates against what I [and many others] are fighting to live with, or 'get out of my face' with your viscerally and irrationally generated objections."
Quote"Either adduce solid and substantive Scriptural evidence which Divinely militates against what I [and many others] are fighting to live with, or 'get out of my face' with your viscerally and irrationally generated objections."
Thats right! Oh yeah!! You tell 'em!!!!!
I'm imagining a lot of blank stares after that line. It's great.
Isn't it true though, that most of the wanks (I really don't know what that word means but it sounds good) that give us a hard time about this are actually pretty shallow in their faith and their intellect and would have a difficult time even understanding what you're asking for.
But then again... That's probably your point. Duh!!
I'm slow too.
Debbie
Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 14, 2007, 07:21:42 PM
I have heard a number say to the effect, over the years,
"I want to go to Hell, because all of my friends will be there!"
But it is an ignorant [as in, deficit of knowledge] statement based solely upon the experiences acquired while living in the corporeal state of existence. Death is 'merely' a translation from state to state, from the corporeal to the spiritual, a completely different mode of existence.
Corporeal life experience is meaningless in that realm; the 'rules' are totally different.
And once that translation from state to state [physical death] is made, there is no going back to change things.
And it is an eternal realm.[/color][/font][/size]
That is not what the song is saying, you might want to go back and re-read it again. Lyrics that do assert what you have written can be found in a song by Billy Joel though, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints..."