I started transitioning at xx ;D ;D ;D
27
Depends on what you consider transition. If you mean coming out to everyone & seeing a therapist then age 18, if you mean starting hormones then age 19. :'(
24.5833 :)
Even though it's under MTF, I'm assuming this topic can apply to most (if not all) trans-folks.
I started at eighteen though (hormones).
25.
41
I tried to transition at 22 but I ran afoul of a really bad psychiatrist who convinced me that I was just crazy...
19 years of my life wasted because I went to the wrong mental health profesional.
Keep that in mind kids. Always look for a qualified gender therapist when you start to transition. The first guy in the phone book is a bad idea.
35
Quote from: cynthialee on November 20, 2011, 09:31:53 PM
Keep that in mind kids. Always look for a qualified gender therapist when you start to transition. The first guy in the phone book is a bad idea.
I just went to a clinic and learned tricks from filipino ts's on the streets of SF. Ohh Anna and Bianca, your brutal honesty made me the former man that stands before you now.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 20, 2011, 09:34:16 PM
I just went to a clinic and learned tricks from filipino ts's on the streets of SF. Ohh Anna and Bianca, your brutal honesty made me the former man that stands before you now.
lol thanks.
Quote from: Annah on November 20, 2011, 09:34:59 PM
lol thanks.
Anna who used to work for Estee Lauder in Macys Union Square. She was such a huge bitch. I seeked her out for advice on how to transition.
That and my drag queen mother....
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 20, 2011, 09:39:22 PM
That and my drag queen mother....
I wanna drag queen mother.... :icon_anger:
Quote from: xXRebeccaXx on November 20, 2011, 09:03:51 PM
I started transitioning at xx ;D ;D ;D
interesting,
Just last week you said this:
QuotexXRebessaXx Reply #7 on: November 13, 2011, 08:10:37 pm
I haven't transitioned yet.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110127.msg832795.html#msg832795 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110127.msg832795.html#msg832795)
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 20, 2011, 09:42:06 PM
I wanna drag queen mother.... :icon_anger:
She is a straight guy during the daytime... I think that actually helps her be a bit more objective. cisgirls are too bitchy, cisgay men can't get over how "FABULOUS I look". So ask the straight men what they think...they are the ones who buy you dinner, take you to the movies, tell you when your ass is getting fat, and help you dispose of dead strippers and "competitish".
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 20, 2011, 09:43:52 PM
She is a straight guy during the daytime... I think that actually helps her be a bit more objective. cisgirls are too bitchy, cisgay men can't get over how "FABULOUS I look". So ask the straight men what they think...they are the ones who buy you dinner, take you to the movies, tell you when your ass is getting fat, and help you dispose of dead strippers and "competitish".
Interesting! :D
Hormones started at 17 on Dec 8th 2010. Full-time by 18 on July 4th 2011... SRS and BA looks like third or fourth quarter 2012.
FFS is slated to be sometime in 2013 or 2014.
Quite a work in progress, physically. I'm glad to say that my interpersonal, social, and emotional health are greatly improved... also a work in progress, though. It's noteworthy that they are the most important part of all this ;).
Started HRT at 24, went fulltime at 25, and had SRS at 28.
64, RLE & HRT, 65 SRS
Came out and did everything I could at 19, but if by transition you mean permanent physical changes, I haven't started.
Quote from: xXRebeccaXx on November 20, 2011, 09:03:51 PM
I started transitioning at xx ;D ;D ;D
Me too! High-five for 13! Unlucky for some! ;)
I didn't manage to work my way into living full time until I was 14, though. Pesky school. But I did manage to get on HRT before there was any real awareness of young transitioners in Australia, so there were fewer roadblocks in place.
Surgery didn't happen until over ten years later, though, at the furthest side of 24.
i started hrt at 17, started truely transitionning at the same time
I came out to my wife and kids at 40, and completed what I call my identity transition (where I stopped thinking of myself as "David" and began thinking of myself as "Connie") at 41. I started HRT at this time and started my RLE shortly after turning 42.
So, my social transition is in progress. I'll consider that to be complete after the legal name/sex change.
My physical transition will be complete after SRS.
30 and just beginning.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 20, 2011, 11:41:11 PM
I came out to my wife and kids at 40, and completed what I call my identity transition (where I stopped thinking of myself as "David" and began thinking of myself as "Connie") at 41. I started HRT at this time and started my RLE shortly after turning 42.
So, my social transition is in progress. I'll consider that to be complete after the legal name/sex change.
My physical transition will be complete after SRS.
Yay!!
Someone in my age group!
**I was feeling old in this crowd**
Tried to go fulltime before HRT at 16, but it was horrible and only made me more depressed.
Got on hormones at 17 on July 28, and I've been popping those pills ever since.
I'm not looking forward to going full time again just because of what happened to me the last time I tried.. it was a little scarring I guess.
Quote from: JoeyD on November 20, 2011, 11:59:51 PM
Tried to go fulltime before HRT at 16, but it was horrible and only made me more depressed.
Got on hormones at 17 on July 28, and I've been popping those pills ever since.
I'm not looking forward to going full time again just because of what happened to me the last time I tried.. it was a little scarring I guess.
So I'm not the only one who's had/has that problem? Good to know.
Quote from: Birdie on November 20, 2011, 10:40:59 PM
Me too! High-five for 13! Unlucky for some! ;)
Unlucky? Me having three beautiful children who loves me unconditionally is not unlucky. If I did transition at 13, I would have not had Jacob, Natalie, and Caleb.
For me it was not unluckiness. It was grace.
Quote from: JoeyD on November 20, 2011, 11:59:51 PM
Tried to go fulltime before HRT at 16, but it was horrible and only made me more depressed.
Got on hormones at 17 on July 28, and I've been popping those pills ever since.
I'm not looking forward to going full time again just because of what happened to me the last time I tried.. it was a little scarring I guess.
Give the hormones time to werq joey, you've got alot of time so no rush! :)
21
40
Quote from: Annah on November 21, 2011, 12:11:52 AM
Unlucky? Me having three beautiful children who loves me unconditionally is not unlucky. If I did transition at 13, I would have not had Jacob, Natalie, and Caleb.
Children rock. Especially when you've got a toddler!
came out at 36, started hormones 37 just started spiro it has been about 4 weeks after birthday 38 and looking forward say the rest in the future. ;D
Quote from: Annah on November 21, 2011, 12:11:52 AM
Unlucky? Me having three beautiful children who loves me unconditionally is not unlucky. If I did transition at 13, I would have not had Jacob, Natalie, and Caleb.
For me it was not unluckiness. It was grace.
Oops! I was actually referring to the saying that the number thirteen is unlucky for some. "Thirteen; unlucky for some" is just a saying. I didn't mean that others were unlucky for not being thirteen. Sorry about that! I didn't mean to imply anything about anyone else, I was just making reference to the saying about thirteen being an unlucky number.
Sorry everyone! :-X
Quote from: Birdie on November 20, 2011, 10:40:59 PM
Me too! High-five for 13! Unlucky for some! ;)
I didn't manage to work my way into living full time until I was 14, though. Pesky school. But I did manage to get on HRT before there was any real awareness of young transitioners in Australia, so there were fewer roadblocks in place.
Surgery didn't happen until over ten years later, though, at the furthest side of 24.
Sooooo jealous..
I didn't have the chance to start until 18-19
I've lived full time since I as 15. I've started hormones and I am 18 now. :)
Forced to come out at age 19 by my Mum, Foiled until this year: February 22, 2011, 11am, age 32. Went full time 2 months later.
I took the first pill at May 15, 2011, 14:28pm (Spanish time :)).
I had the first appointment with my psychologist the day after, and I said to her: "I need an endocrinologist".
(EDIT: At age 44)
Quote from: Annah on November 20, 2011, 09:42:58 PM
interesting,
Just last week you said this:
Mhmm mhmm and what does that tell you?
Went full-time april 2010 aged 21, still no HRT :s, but really i count the first time i told anyone i was trans as the start of my transition so 13 or so?
Haven't finished but started at age 19.
22.. (23 now) hope to have srs by 25
I'm hoping to start soon...so maybe 22?
Quote from: Birdie on November 21, 2011, 01:15:19 AM
Oops! I was actually referring to the saying that the number thirteen is unlucky for some. "Thirteen; unlucky for some" is just a saying. I didn't mean that others were unlucky for not being thirteen. Sorry about that! I didn't mean to imply anything about anyone else, I was just making reference to the saying about thirteen being an unlucky number.
Sorry everyone! :-X
my apologies!
I started HRT at 27
Its interesting to see at what stage people consider their transition started. Some people it seems to be first day full time, or first day on HRT. I personally think really it would be when i first told people.
I dont think you can consider when you tell people simply because you dont tell everyone in one day.
Quote from: jsorter on November 21, 2011, 11:35:26 AM
I dont think you can consider when you tell people simply because you dont tell everyone in one day.
I did.
20/21 but lost hope.
I consider the start of my transition to be when I took the first steps towards the goal. The first step for me was telling my mom, which is now about 2 months ago.
I'm 23.
Started requesting transition at 18 after too much denial, in November/December 2009. Got to see the right professional at 19, in the beginning of 2011. I am now 20, and HRT might be possible about when I turn 21 in February 2012, with luck.
Quote from: JS04011027 on November 21, 2011, 11:35:26 AM
I dont think you can consider when you tell people simply because you dont tell everyone in one day.
I didn't tell anyone i just figured to let them find out on their own. :icon_shrug_no:
Blockers at 14
HRT/Full time at 15
Breast Augmentation at 17
SRS at 18
I still haven't had labiaplasty yet...I don't even know if I'm going to, so I guess I'm pretty much done with physical transition.
This thread brings up a lot of mixed feelings for me.
I'm envious of those of you who were able to start transition so young. It could have cut a lot of time off my depression, and prevented the divorce that I'm going through right now.
But at the same time, if I'd transitioned in my teens, I'd've never been married and never would have known my kids. So many positive things in my life now I've encountered due to my soon-to-be-ex-wife. So, I guess for me it was better that I started my transition when I did.
I consider mine when I made the first real step to fix things. So when I started therapy two months ago at age 20.
I came out when I was 17, just a couple of months off 18, that's what I consider the start of my transition. Started T when I was 19.
I started hormones at 20, and went full time when I was 21 (though there was only about 6 months in between).
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 21, 2011, 04:05:49 PM
This thread brings up a lot of mixed feelings for me.
I'm envious of those of you who were able to start transition so young. It could have cut a lot of time off my depression, and prevented the divorce that I'm going through right now.
But at the same time, if I'd transitioned in my teens, I'd've never been married and never would have known my kids. So many positive things in my life now I've encountered due to my soon-to-be-ex-wife. So, I guess for me it was better that I started my transition when I did.
I feel this way too. It hurts and it hurts and it hurts to have had to wait so long, but then if I'd transitioned younger, idk. Maybe I would have missed out on a lot of useful experiences.
I came out at 14 but had to wait until 17 for spiro and 18 for estradiol.
Also, no need to feel envy :) We all have lived our own lives and all follow different paths. Focus on what YOU have now and not on what you don't or what others do have. Turn the envy into an aspiration to be the best you can be. (I know, easier said than done.)
Quote from: ZeldaHeart on November 21, 2011, 09:20:00 PM
I came out at 14 but had to wait until 17 for spiro and 18 for estradiol.
Awe that sucks...i would have went DIY hormones instead of waiting.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 21, 2011, 09:22:38 PM
Awe that sucks...i would have went DIY hormones instead of waiting.
I don't think that's a good thing to advocate for...there's nothing wrong with waiting until you are under the supervision and care of a doctor. In fact, suggesting DIY hormones is pretty dangerous.
Quote from: ZeldaHeart on November 21, 2011, 09:20:00 PM
I came out at 14 but had to wait until 17 for spiro and 18 for estradiol.
Also, no need to feel envy :) We all have lived our own lives and all follow different paths. Focus on what YOU have now and not on what you don't or what others do have. Turn the envy into an aspiration to be the best you can be. (I know, easier said than done.)
I'm almost like you, I came out to my family at 14, had to wait until 18 for spiro, 19 for estradiol... tho I'm on cyproterone acetate insted of spiro now
I wish I had "useful experiences" I could use as good points to not having transitioned younger... But the only thing I could've possibly missed is a lot of sadness, years of solitude, conflicts and loss of time on a computer.
I hope I can get rid of the bitterness when I can finally start HRT.
Whoa, there, depressing. Time for bed!
Quote from: AndromedaVox on November 21, 2011, 10:02:03 PM
I don't think that's a good thing to advocate for...there's nothing wrong with waiting until you are under the supervision and care of a doctor. In fact, suggesting DIY hormones is pretty dangerous.
Yeah i agree, waiting to be under a doctor's care is safer but some mental health professionals act as "gate keepers" when it comes to refferal letters for HRT and sadly most doctors won't prescribe you hormones without that letter so many ts boys & girls opt for DIY hormones especially the ones that are young and don't want to go through male or female puberty.
I was just saying that's what "I" would have done, not implying anyone had to follow in my footsteps.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 22, 2011, 12:45:35 AM
Yeah i agree, waiting to be under a doctor's care is safer but some mental health professionals act as "gate keepers" when it comes to refferal letters for HRT and sadly most doctors won't prescribe you hormones without that letter so many ts boys & girls opt for DIY hormones especially the ones that are young and don't want to go through male or female puberty.
I was just saying that's what "I" would have done, not implying anyone had to follow in my footsteps.
100% agree, I actually self-medicated a bit before I got prescribed them... But it was too expensive for me that I could only afford half the dosage... I couldn't really get them younger because my family didn't agree with it and I didn't have a credit card to order... it's sad that some T damages are irreversible :'(
Quote from: lonely girl on November 21, 2011, 10:19:13 PM
I'm almost like you, I came out to my family at 14, had to wait until 18 for spiro, 19 for estradiol... tho I'm on cyproterone acetate insted of spiro now
Wow, that feels good that someone else had to go through the same thing that I did. Wasn't it awful waiting? My main puberty was between the years that I didn't get any help. Everything is good now, though. Did you go through much puberty between the years of waiting? Also judging by your pictures, you are adorably beautiful.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 21, 2011, 09:22:38 PM
Awe that sucks...i would have went DIY hormones instead of waiting.
Rukia, you are so right! I actually was DIY Spiro for a year between the ages of 14-15 and then DIY estrogen with the spiro for 3 or 4 months. I started growing breasts at 15 but eventually my parents figured out and it was very hard to DIY at that point. My mom took me to many therapists but they all were unfamiliar with trans issues. Then, we saw a documentary on ABC about the mazzoni center in Philadelphia and they did everything!
QuoteI was just saying that's what "I" would have done, not implying anyone had to follow in my footsteps.
Maybe use a different wording next time?
It's been my experience that "I would have..." is almost always interpreted (and implied) as a suggestion in English (especially American English).
I only mention it because I do agree that advocating, or even being perceived as advocating, the use of unsupervised prescription drugs for a minor is a little...err
Quote from: Butterflyhugs on November 22, 2011, 01:24:54 AM
Maybe use a different wording next time?
It's been my experience that "I would have..." is almost always interpreted (and implied) as a suggestion in English (especially American English).
I only mention it because I do agree that advocating, or even being perceived as advocating, the use of unsupervised prescription drugs for a minor is a little...err
Lol I see your point but people are going to find out how regardless of me saying anything, this is the internet.
Back on topic - I came out at 18 and started HRT at 19. After about a year and a half into HRT decided to de-transition. Four years later at 24 started therapy and hormones again...blah.
Quote from: ZeldaHeart on November 22, 2011, 01:20:38 AM
Wow, that feels good that someone else had to go through the same thing that I did. Wasn't it awful waiting? My main puberty was between the years that I didn't get any help. Everything is good now, though. Did you go through much puberty between the years of waiting? Also judging by your pictures, you are adorably beautiful.
It was super awful of course :'( I did go thru some puberty... nasty stuff :embarrassed: T damaged my body, it is passable now but not feminine/pretty enough (maybe just my genes). grew facial hair and leg hair too (f*** yuck). My face definitely got a bit more masculine as well. I was grateful, however, that my voice stayed pretty much the same since 12, its kinda androgynous and passable without any practice. And thank you for your compliment :) I can't make myself think that I'm pretty tho... But I think you are extremely femme and beautiful ^^
I told my parents when I was 14, but I didn't even know what options I had (didn't know the term "transsexual", didn't know you could take hormones, and stuff like that). So both my parents and I just pretended I never said anything. So the testosterone had another decade of wrecking my body. The only fortunate thing is that it turns out that I have a low level of it naturally, and I can pass without doing much, but I still wish transition had happened a lot earlier for me... Even though I probably shouldn't feel this way, I have to say I envy those of you who transitioned so many years earlier...
lonely girl: I feel necessary to tell you I think you are definitely wrong in your opinion about your looks. In my head, it's not even discutable. You're not just "really cute". You're at a level of cuteness I don't see every week,, in my college with 1000+ 17-20-year old girls.
You're being awfully hard on yourself. If we were discussing if you could be on the great magazine covers, then I'd say it's quite possible that it's a no. But the question whether or not you are pretty is like asking if it's cold today in Antarctica. Maybe not the coldest ever, but still very cold. Please acknowledge that you are most probably in the top 5% pretty girls.
I agree lonely girl. You are gorgeous.
Quote from: A on November 22, 2011, 04:43:11 PM
lonely girl: I feel necessary to tell you I think you are definitely wrong in your opinion about your looks. In my head, it's not even discutable. You're not just "really cute". You're at a level of cuteness I don't see every week,, in my college with 1000+ 17-20-year old girls.
You're being awfully hard on yourself. If we were discussing if you could be on the great magazine covers, then I'd say it's quite possible that it's a no. But the question whether or not you are pretty is like asking if it's cold today in Antarctica. Maybe not the coldest ever, but still very cold. Please acknowledge that you are most probably in the top 5% pretty girls.
Quote from: Felix on November 22, 2011, 08:45:59 PM
I agree lonely girl. You are gorgeous.
thank you あさん ＆ Felix :) you people give me more confidence... But I tell you tho, I try not to show my flaws in pics, when you see me IRL maybe you will think otherwise :icon_yikes:
Let's see...
Breakdown at 22, followed by self med 1 (3 months) at 22. Stopped because I ran out of money that my parents couldn't trace. Self med 2 (3-4 months) at 24. Stopped for a couple reasons, one of which was meeting my ex-gf and deciding to give that a shot. Started seeing my therapist at 26. Started hormones under doctor supervision at 26. Full time in my last 2 months of being 27. GRS will hopefully be around my 29th birthday, depending on insurance etc.
27 wish I would of had the guts at 13
Started a month and some ago, a month after my 22nd birthday, still self-medicating. Wish I would've started doing it sooner, but I didn't even know what all the confusing feelings meant, and what was wrong with me. So, still better than doing it many years later, I suppose.
I am SO glad no-one let me self medicate at the age of 14 or so, there might have been advantages but although i knew i was trans at 14 and am transitioning in my early 20s there were other things that i was sure about when i was 14 that i know i was mistaken about now.
The whole idea of self medication makes me feel uncomfortable especially in children, hormones are more than just magical things that will make you into a pretty princess (although with a bit of luck they can help you get there) they are dangerous chemicals that affect your genes and can cause major problems if dosages are not properly monitored or if the person taking them has pre-existing medical conditions. People have died from self medicating these drugs so please do not think that it is anyway safe to take them without proper medical guidance. I understand that the procurement of hormones via a doctor is hard in a lot of places but trusting your life to internet "facts" suspect companies and chance does not seem like a good idea.
Im not trying to have a go at anyone who self medicate or who have done so in the past. I just want to help warn people that hormones are very very dangerous.
Some things that estrogen can affect: blood clotting, liver function, muscle density, bone density, links to strokes and dementia, heart attacks and various forms of cancer
Some things Spiro can affect: Possible risk of internal bleeding, can cause rashes, loss of muscle control, drowsiness and raised pottasium levels in the blood (thats caled hyperkalemia and it also happens when people get the lethal injection in the USA, the third injection is potassium chloride and that is what kills the person)
I dont want to be all doom and gloom but people HAVE to understand the risks they are taking when self medicating hormones.
Well, I started dressing and going out finally in public at 45. I guess a year later , I had the discussion with a doctor . I had to stop H R T a year later due to some medical issues . Now I'm being cleared to go back on again Hoo reyyyyyyyy ! ellen
If I could, I would definitely be under supervised regime. However, we only have one sex therapist (who is also supposed to be a gender therapist) and even that one's awful. After 8 months of waiting, I had the appointment a few days ago and she told me outright that she didn't think I would qualify as a transgender just as I entered her office. I discussed the issue with her for a few more minutes before I had enough and walked out.
We don't have trained psychiatrists specialised in the gender field, insurance covered or otherwise. And I don't have the means to visit any of the neighbouring countries where they're supposedly more developed in the field. So all I was left with was self-medication, which I decided for after months of research; or increasing depression. If I end up dying because of the medications, I won't mind. It's what I wanted to happen in the first place before it.
I'm sure many others like me (or in a worse position) are out there.
Regarding selfmedication in transgendered children, it is not as simple as commentating the issue with "oh but that's dangerous, big no-no!".
For a transgendered child, puberty can be extremely traumatic, and, as some here probably already knows, over 40% of transgenders have tried or done suicide before or during transition.
This number would be drastically lower if medication had been more avaible- and not any least pre-pubertaly avaible- for those that took to suicide.
A transgender would gladly much rather take the risks with selfmedicating in time to avoid the pubertal changes, than to live them through only to "have to" top themselves later.
As an example, sad threads like the linked one would not exist if the problems had been dealt with in time: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110787.0/topicseen.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110787.0/topicseen.html)
I consider my transition start date as when I started HRT. That was:
Thirty Six
Quote from: Bishounen on November 24, 2011, 12:19:27 PM
Regarding selfmedication in transgendered children, it is not as simple as commentating the issue with "oh but that's dangerous, big no-no!".
For a transgendered child, puberty can be extremely traumatic, and, as some here probably already knows, over 40% of transgenders have tried or done suicide before or during transition.
This number would be drastically lower if medication had been more avaible- and not any least pre-pubertaly avaible- for those that took to suicide.
A transgender would gladly much rather take the risks with selfmedicating in time to avoid the pubertal changes, than to live them through only to "have to" top themselves later.
As an example, sad threads like the linked one would not exist if the problems had been dealt with in time: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110787.0/topicseen.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110787.0/topicseen.html)
The answer is proper medical care not recklessly administering dangerous drugs to children with no medical checks, example im gonna put forward is myself, if i had self medicated at the age of 14 i would have probably died, i had a serious liver condition i didnt know about at the time that nearly killed me on its own, if you add hormones to that i would have been a gonner for sure. I remember being a young teen living with dysphoria and of course its horrible but considering there are properly trained gender specialists all over the world and even some properly certified specialists available over the internet that can authorise HRT in a properly monitered manner (obviously check credentials).
I hope this link is ok:
http://transgenderlondon.com/self_medication_and_hrt.htm (http://transgenderlondon.com/self_medication_and_hrt.htm)
A part of it is "making sure you arent a crossdresser" based and im not suggesting that anyone here is or isnt anything but the parts on the medical process and risks i found informative when i was looking into HRT.
At the end of the day you should at least get regular blood tests. Ill say no more on the matter.
I'm going to try to be very careful and mindful of safety and forum rules, but I don't think any of us should dismiss another person's self-care decisions out of hand. Harm reduction might be a better focus for scrutiny.
I just worry people arent armed with the facts :(
Quote from: AndromedaVox on November 21, 2011, 03:43:29 PM
Blockers at 14
HRT/Full time at 15
Breast Augmentation at 17
SRS at 18
I still haven't had labiaplasty yet...I don't even know if I'm going to, so I guess I'm pretty much done with physical transition.
Having the surgery at the age of 18 was a good time, you could then have a family and boyfriend in the future. Also you can forget your past. i wished i could start my hormone earlier. I was not as brave as you.
4
58.
Joelene
I cant believe ive been full time for 20 months now, I was so terrified of going full time without hormones and now im still not on them yet but ive realised my voice needs changing to help me "pass" more than anything the hormones can do. Its amazing how your perspective can change! I think im gonna get som proffessional help with my voice i just dont seem to be able to get it right on my own
40
20, started HRT, been on for 2 months now, I want to go full time but I'm not confident enough to do it alone yet, and I don't have any support.