My Transsexual Summer S01E02 (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqCTgOm2KhI&feature=related#)
QuoteThis video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
Haha, what? Yet I can easily watch it on the Channel 4 youtube channel or Channel 4 website because I live in Britain. :I
This is the first time I've heard a male voice saying "I don't want a huge one" when referring to his penis size.
I am seething with anger as i watch this.
I think reality shows like this minimize our experiences.
I wanted to pull my hair out that ive been trying so hard to grow to watch a women go from what she described as a "bad ->-bleeped-<-" to glamorous because of that privileged support network that helped her.
Shows like this upset me so much that isn't REALITY. I couldn't even finish that video because the blood just rose to my face.
I completely agree, Torn1990.
I got hot-faced and facepalmed like never before while watching this.
You know, honestly, I think it's stuff like this that actually made me MORE repressed about being trans. I really admire what these people are doing, but this show is such a poor example of an average trans person, at least for girls. I do think the guys seemed to be better examples, but I don't think I'm qualified to make that judgement. Can we just have one show about trans people where someone isn't going to get surgery or is covered in butterfly tattoos/memorbillia?
Let's all get our asses on our own show.
It's gonna be gangsta.
Quote from: JoeyD on November 27, 2011, 12:21:13 AM
Let's all get our asses on our own show.
It's gonna be gangsta.
This! This by a million billion bajillion kumquatillion jizzilian!
Just an observation here... the SRS patient REALLY needs to work on her voice, holy crap ...
i started watching this show but it made me cry.
not to sound too judgmental but none of those girls pass very well....and it made me feel like I look that terrible.
pretty sure I'm going to hell for that.
but anyway...is it just me or do none of those girls even try with their voices?
I think the show has gona long way to highlight the struggles that trans-folk face, ive seen a lot of myself in all of the women ont he show, Fear of going out, trying to hide behind make-up, the over-masculinised over compensating from the one who had her op and the over the top personality way of overcompensating that donna has.
I think when it comes to their passability, the one who had her op was a late life transitioner and that never helps and the one with the purple and black wig is just starting out. Drew wears too mcuh make-up but i think shes doing pretty well in general, if you have seen the cis-girls that roam the highstreets of england on fri-sat nights you would say she blends right in. And donna, well i dont think she wants to pass, if she wanted to blend in im sure she could looks wise but she is a loud and proud person and thats not her aim.
I know the show isnt perfect but its a lot closer to the truth than anything ive seen about trans people before.
Here is the main thread on the subject: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110369.msg835863.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110369.msg835863.html)
Quote from: A_Dresden_Doll on November 27, 2011, 12:18:28 AM
You know, honestly, I think it's stuff like this that actually made me MORE repressed about being trans. I really admire what these people are doing, but this show is such a poor example of an average trans person, at least for girls. I do think the guys seemed to be better examples, but I don't think I'm qualified to make that judgement. Can we just have one show about trans people where someone isn't going to get surgery or is covered in butterfly tattoos/memorbillia?
It seems there's a bit of a double standard going on here....I haven't heard one of the MTF's in this vid mention she's heavily into gunplay/weapons/shooting, baseball, a desire to join the army, not about fast cars or big trucks either...like I read frequently on these boards.
Those are 'average' examples of MTF's because there's a lot of them like that...
The MTF's in this vid are not masculine acting at all. Just a bit clumsy with their voices and in their tasteless presentation........which seems to represent their own cultural standards and class.
At least they're expressng their feminity instead of being and acting very masculine and claiming they're '100% women'.
Their MTF presentation is a matter of cultural standards and class combined with personal (vulgar, cheap) taste but what the heck? Dew's mother looks and sounds a bit like a passing MTF too...
The FTM's were nice, natural male and had some realistic thoughts (on not wanting to have a huge penis for instance)
I think reading only on these boards is an entirely different matter from being in the real world meeting MTF's in 3d AND hearing their voices.
<I know the show isnt perfect but its a lot closer to the truth than anything ive seen about trans people before.> I fully agree El!
I wasn't that shocked or amazed because the average Dutch TS looks, acts and speaks like this:
http://hellogoodbye.ncrv.nl/uitzendinggemist/fragment/hoe-gaat-nu-met-2-oktober (http://hellogoodbye.ncrv.nl/uitzendinggemist/fragment/hoe-gaat-nu-met-2-oktober) and yes: those are breastimplants.
The only thing that drives me nuts on most (if not all) of these videos is the MTF voices. Put some work into your voice!!!!!!!!!!! Some of those girls looked stunning but their voices instantly gave them away.
I guess I should be thankful, because non-trans people might watch this and then assume that all transgirl's will have manly voices. So I'll pass just a little bit better because I worked on my voice.
I actually thought Drew passed well. Sarah on the other hand looked so masculine it was scary.
I actually think the series is pretty good. It does tell the story of the struggles of many transsexuals quite well. And some pass quite well (when they aren't talking at least), some don't pass, some are just starting their transitions. But like Samantharz said, they need to work on their voices!
Quote from: Samantharz on November 27, 2011, 09:35:27 AM
I guess I should be thankful, because non-trans people might watch this and then assume that all transgirl's will have manly voices. So I'll pass just a little bit better because I worked on my voice.
I think non-trans people already think that way without watching that. I used to exploit this fact a lot to pass better too...
Quote from: Samantharz on November 27, 2011, 09:35:27 AM
The only thing that drives me nuts on most (if not all) of these videos is the MTF voices. Put some work into your voice!!!!!!!!!!! Some of those girls looked stunning but their voices instantly gave them away.
I guess I should be thankful, because non-trans people might watch this and then assume that all transgirl's will have manly voices. So I'll pass just a little bit better because I worked on my voice.
We need to really keep the myth going that all trans-women sound like James Earl Jones.
Quote from: Dahlia on November 27, 2011, 04:53:04 AM
It seems there's a bit of a double standard going on here....I haven't heard one of the MTF's in this vid mention she's heavily into gunplay/shooting, baseball, a desire to join the army, not about fast cars or big trucks either...like I read frequently on this boards.
Those are 'average' examples of MTF's because there's a lot of them....
The MTF's in this vid are not masculine acting at all. Just a bit clumsy with their voices and in their tasteless presentation........which seems to represent their own cultural standards and class.
At least they're expressng their feminity instead of being and acting very masculine and claiming they're '100% women'.
Their MTF presentation is a matter of cultural standards and class combined with personal (vulgar, cheap) taste but what the heck? Dew's mother looks and sounds a bit like a passing MTF too...
The FTM's were nice, natural male and had some realistic thoughts (on not wanting to have a huge penis for instance)
I think reading only on this boards is an entirely different matter from being in the real world meeting MTF's in 3d AND hearing their voices.
<I know the show isnt perfect but its a lot closer to the truth than anything ive seen about trans people before.> I fully agree El!
I wasn't that shocked or amazed because the average Dutch TS looks, acts and speaks like this:
http://hellogoodbye.ncrv.nl/uitzendinggemist/fragment/hoe-gaat-nu-met-2-oktober (http://hellogoodbye.ncrv.nl/uitzendinggemist/fragment/hoe-gaat-nu-met-2-oktober) and yes: those are breastimplants.
Well put. I watched the whole series and liked it. The only thing I couldn't get past was almost nobody had a passing voice.. not even close! Especially the one who got SRS at the beginning of the show. I'm sure some are put off by the constant emphasis on surgeries, but it's TV.. what do you expect? Surgery is interesting to people. At least the shows narration was done with dignity and not treated like an american show with excess drama and crudeness.
Having watched all three episodes so far already I think this show is definitely in the right vein of programming on trans issues, I think it's fairly mean spirited to come on an anonymous forum and rip into young (and not so young) men and women who have gone on T.V. and exposed some very personal feelings and issues to the world.
Ok, so their voices aren't perfect. As far as I can see that only makes it harder if it means that all the people you would expect to support them (the trans community) are going to go for the jugular and claim that they are not a good representation of trans men and women. They seem to me to be exactly the kind of men and women you meet in Ireland and the U.K. trans or not.
This is treating what the general public see as a weird thing with dignity and a search for real understanding not simply sensationalising everything. I personally have never seen a documentary cover the topic with such subtlety and respect for the individuals who bare their lives, even only for a short time, to help people understand.
What are the other portrayals of trans people in the T.V. media?? "Real" transpeople on Jerry Springer type shows? Dr. Phil's "balanced" look at trans kids? What about in fictional shows? How many of the trans characters we see are normal office workers compared to hookers or gold diggers.
I'm sorry if this comes across as a rant but it does really annoy me when people will pick fault with every single thing and neglect to look at the overall message. The main point I have seen is that the girls voices aren't good enough. Not one person has mentioned the fact that these are real people who volunteered to expose themselves to the world, and they can't even get some understanding from the people who have gone through the same thing, or are in the middle of it.
Everyone of you ladies must honestly admit to having fears of being a "bad ->-bleeped-<-" at some point. Even if you wouldn't phrase it that way the sentiment is the exact same as fears over bbeing passable, and Sarah is at the very start of her transition. In my opinion she jumped into full time life way too soon but it can't happen overnight.
Rant over! thanks for putting up with that diatribe
QuoteThis is treating what the general public see as a weird thing with dignity and a search for real understanding not simply sensationalising everything. I personally have never seen a documentary cover the topic with such subtlety and respect for the individuals who bare their lives, even only for a short time, to help people understand.
Have you seen transgeneration? It was a pretty good trans documentary. One of my favorite portrayals of trans in media so far.
no I have not seen or heard of it before now, I will have to check that out.
i'm not judging their passability
that's not why i'm upset with this show.
We are trans women, passing is not always an option for everyone
and i think all those people were beautiful
what i am pissed at is how the media was hung up on looks being
the most important factor when transitioning
and also how easily some of these women were able to achieve their transition
was extremely privileged. (not that privilege is always a bad thing.) Also, those were all white women and men who could
afford their transition, not a single person of color.
I do not have the option to go off to some "trans summer cabin of fun" to get support in my transition that is not reality.
Transition will be a long and painful process for me. The opportunity these trans people have on this show minimizes my experience in transition.
i ended up watching the whole show, I enjoyed it, but i definitely take issue with some of the way trans people were portrayed
To me, it was very obvious that a cis gender person is behind this.
Quote from: Queen Anne's Revenge on November 27, 2011, 12:22:11 PM
no I have not seen or heard of it before now, I will have to check that out.
Parts of it are up on youtube. Enough to let you get a feel for it.
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 27, 2011, 12:29:36 PM
i'm not judging their passability
that's not why i'm upset with this show.
We are trans women, passing is not always an option for everyone
and i think all those people were beautiful
what i am pissed at is how the media was hung up on looks being
the most important factor when transitioning
and also how easily some of these women were able to achieve their transition
was extremely privileged. (not that privilege is always a bad thing.) Also, those were all white women and men who could
afford their transition, not a single person of color.
I do not have the option to go off to some "trans summer cabin of fun" to get support in my transition
I sat alone in my room, transition have been a long and painful process for me. The opportunity these trans people have on this show minimizes my experience in transition.
i ended up watching the whole show, I enjoyed it, but i definitely take issue with some of the way trans people were portrayed
To me, it was very obvious that a cis gender person is behind this.
I'm sorry you feel that way, however if you look at the other 2 episodes (all 4 parts of all 3 episodes), you will come to find that one has self confidence issues with passing in public, and has difficulty finding a job, and I've learned things about FtM surgeries that I didn't know before. I'm sure I could go back and find other realities in the show if I went back and rewatched them all.
I understand that it is not showing a more depressing story about transitioning, and in not doing so, has failed to portray the full struggle with transsexualism. However, it is a brand new show and I hope it will get enough of a viewership to get into that eventually!
Of course a show about trans people is going to hung up on looks to a certain extent, it isn't made for the trans community it's made for the general public who would see it as an aesthetic thing. On top of that the psychological aspects of GID are comlpex and to a degree unexplainable to people who don't feel that way.
As for the retreat thing it is a bit unusual but I think it is good that they are highlighting more positives than negatives this way because, where I am at least, trans people don't make the news unless they are the victims of brutal crime or fighting legal battles for recognition, all the public see normally are negative aspects to being transgender. The diversity has more to do with the location, the U.K. is multicultureal but is still predominantly a white christian place, and the people on the show were all volunteers. I certainly wouldn't suspect there to have been any concious attempt to homogenise the people on the show.
Sunnynight, I found a source online for the full thing but I don't think it was ever broadcast on this side of the atlantic when it was made. I will watch it when I get a chance
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 27, 2011, 12:29:36 PM
what i am pissed at is how the media was hung up on looks being
the most important factor when transitioning
and also how easily some of these women were able to achieve their transition
was extremely privileged. (not that privilege is always a bad thing.) Also, those were all white women and men who could
afford their transition, not a single person of color.
I do not have the option to go off to some "trans summer cabin of fun" to get support in my transition that is not reality.
Transition will be a long and painful process for me. The opportunity these trans people have on this show minimizes my experience in transition.
i ended up watching the whole show, I enjoyed it, but i definitely take issue with some of the way trans people were portrayed
To me, it was very obvious that a cis gender person is behind this.
It has its flaws, but especially if a non-trans person produced it, it's pretty good!
And there is only so much variety they can include in it... I don't really want to bash it for not including all possible varieties in every category...
And speaking of variety, it's pretty good that they include people who do pass easily and people who don't...
Quote from: Queen Anne's Revenge on November 27, 2011, 12:06:31 PM
I'm sorry if this comes across as a rant but it does really annoy me when people will pick fault with every single thing and neglect to look at the overall message. The main point I have seen is that the girls voices aren't good enough. Not one person has mentioned the fact that these are real people who volunteered to expose themselves to the world, and they can't even get some understanding from the people who have gone through the same thing, or are in the middle of it.
... and I am one of those guilty of it! Well said and thanks for pointing that out :)
Quote from: Eve of Chaos on November 27, 2011, 03:07:18 AM
i started watching this show but it made me cry.
not to sound too judgmental but none of those girls pass very well....and it made me feel like I look that terrible.
pretty sure I'm going to hell for that.
but anyway...is it just me or do none of those girls even try with their voices?
Drew's voice is mostly androgynous, the others are hopeless. And none of the girls are even close to passing. I also found that a little frustrating, as again it's that stereotype that all trans girls look visibly trans. They are also all kinda hyper-femme. I like the guys better honestly.
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 27, 2011, 12:29:36 PM
i'm not judging their passability
that's not why i'm upset with this show.
We are trans women, passing is not always an option for everyone
and i think all those people were beautiful
what i am pissed at is how the media was hung up on looks being
the most important factor when transitioning
and also how easily some of these women were able to achieve their transition
was extremely privileged. (not that privilege is always a bad thing.) Also, those were all white women and men who could
afford their transition, not a single person of color.
I do not have the option to go off to some "trans summer cabin of fun" to get support in my transition that is not reality.
Transition will be a long and painful process for me. The opportunity these trans people have on this show minimizes my experience in transition.
i ended up watching the whole show, I enjoyed it, but i definitely take issue with some of the way trans people were portrayed
To me, it was very obvious that a cis gender person is behind this.
No offence, but for some of us, looking male is a big part of our dysphoria. It's not so much just "passing" in terms of society, but being able to see yourself as female. It's great if you don't have that dysphoria, and I'm sorry that you aren't well represented in media, but there ARE trans folk who care a lot about how they look.
It's also done in the UK for a UK audience, and is not representative of the US. In the UK, the NHS will pay for a good chunk of transitioning costs. Most of the folk on the show are not wealthy at all. And I do find it frustrating when people constantly assume a US-centric view of transition.
*It's also done in the UK for a UK audience, and is not representative of the US. In the UK, the NHS will pay for a good chunk of transitioning costs. Most of the folk on the show are not wealthy at all. And I do find it frustrating when people constantly assume a US-centric view of transition.*
This may seem like flogging a dead horse at this stage but I feel it is always vital to remember the context of things like this. THe amount of makeup drew wears is not unusual for girls in the U.K. As she explained her influence was the likes of Jordan and Jodie Marsh because they were viewed as desirable women (I have no idea why :P ) And what looks like a council house in wakefield doesn't speak of great wealth.
I think what we may be seeing here is simply a difference of culture between those familiar with the U.K. and those who are not.
if most of those girls practiced their voices, i really think they would have no problems blending in.
But an untrained voice will clock you every-single-time; no matter how much they physically blend
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on November 27, 2011, 12:40:11 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way, however if you look at the other 2 episodes (all 4 parts of all 3 episodes), you will come to find that one has self confidence issues with passing in public, and has difficulty finding a job, and I've learned things about FtM surgeries that I didn't know before. I'm sure I could go back and find other realities in the show if I went back and rewatched them all.
I understand that it is not showing a more depressing story about transitioning, and in not doing so, has failed to portray the full struggle with transsexualism. However, it is a brand new show and I hope it will get enough of a viewership to get into that eventually!
Honestly, i'm not sure why the show angers me so much, well i am... It is not that i want it to show some depressing story, not at all, i'd actually rather they show the benefits of being transgender and being able to transition so I thought the show was great in many ways too.
I ended up watching all the episodes. I just wished they talked more about trans people who don't have support networks, and how they are all white people. The opportunity these trans people have is not offered to trans people regularly so it is not accessible either, I will criticize anything that is put in the public eye especially when it comes to trans politics because they are usually problematic.
Sarah, I noticed your tattoo. It's nice. However you forgot to add the sibilant above the "sin." But the tattoo is nice.
Quote from: Sarah7 on November 27, 2011, 12:53:49 PM
Drew's voice is mostly androgynous, the others are hopeless. And none of the girls are even close to passing. I also found that a little frustrating, as again it's that stereotype that all trans girls look visibly trans. They are also all kinda hyper-femme. I like the guys better honestly.
IMHO, I think Donna was passable. Drew was too, she just looks much, much older than she really is. The other two girls, well.. Sarah may could POSSIBLY pass one day, but Karen is a lost cause. Karen for some reason got under my skin, too. I think it's because she was 50 and "making up for lost time" by wearing stuff that not only was out of her age, but was completely unflattering for herself. Plus she was the only one on the show who was getting SRS, and she was lumbering around like a male with the worst voice, etc etc.
Donna isn't hyper-femme IMO.
Lol Donna and Drew passed to me in appearance.
They need to stop talking through their noses though.
Sarah might just pass one day.
She needs to dress in clothes that flatter her though, not clothes meant for 14 year old girls.
Also the hair is bad.
Random streaks of color doesn't look good on older looking faces lol.
maybe thats just me, but it hurts her passability.
Karen's voice is.... -sigh-
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on November 27, 2011, 01:22:04 PM
Drew was too, she just looks much, much older than she really is. The other two girls, well..
The problem with a lot of MTF's is that they don't seem to realise that wearing tons of make up makes one look way older beyond their biological age.
Too much 'matte'foundation and powder makes your face look like a 'death mask'.
Painted on pencil 'stripe' way too thin eyebrows, let alone tattood eyebrows, makes even a GG's face look harsh, cheap, whorish, dumb and in some cases all the before mentioned.
Brownish/reddish painted on/tattood eyebrows are the worst looking.
PLUS it emphasizes relentlessly a masculine forehead/browridge.
As a GG once put it: 'having permanent make up tattood on your face is committing an easthecal crime'
Wearing false eyelashes, especially the cheap looking nylon ones make you look cheap, with strange, 'dead' eyes.
Bleach blonde or jetblack dyed hair makes a GG's face look older harsh, cheap, whorish, dumb etc, let alone an MTF face.
Being too thin makes ones face gaunt= masculine looking.
Etc......
Drew looks fine honestly, it's her voice that makes her appear trans.
You didn't have to criticize things that don't even clock her :P
I do think people are being a bit over-judgemental about this show so far. One, its a reality TV show, not a documentary - think big brother, or castaway or something - the people getting chosen were always going to have to have an appeal that the shows producers would be looking for. It's like x-factor where you need to be trans rather than able to sing. A bit larger than life in some ways is a given. As far as passability goes - well Drew and Donna don't look different from a lot of over made up late teens early twenties girls you'd see every weekend round England. It's a look.
As for it representing rich people - again, this is set in the UK. If you get the NHS approval, then therapy, hormones and surgeries are covered without cost. You can get GCS on minimum wage or drawing unemployment, you don't need to have 20-100,000 to burn or take out loans for. In the latest episode anyway, you get to see Lewis, who was denied top surgery via this route, organise fundraising to get a start on the saving he'll need to get it privately. Seems like everyone so far is on the low end of the wage spectrum, both personally and familialy. Working poor to middle class seems to be the spread.
I did read one comment about the racial make-up that I'd like to address. Again, it's the UK not the US. I'm not saying that there aren't any non-white trans people in the UK, not saying that at all, but the ethnic make up of the country is completely different. The US is something like 13-15% african american and then add to that mixed race Black + white/hispanic/indian/asian in terms of total demographics. The total black population in the UK if you add together the African, Caribbean, and mixed-race Black communities (which are all very different) is maybe a little over 2%.
To put it another way: The producers of the show have narrowed it down to 100 trans people to pick from, and magically these 100 people are representative of racial demographics. If it's being made in the US: 64 are white, 13 black, 9 white hispanic, 5 asian and the rest are native american, mixed race or other ethnicity.
In the UK that split is: 92 are white, 2 are indian, 1 is pakistani, 1 is mixed race, 1 is african, 1 is afro-caribbean and the other 2 are 2 from chinese, non chinese asian, bangladeshi or other. The fact that all the people on the show are white isn't as odd or misrepresentative as it would be in the US.
So far it doesn't seem to be doing too bad.
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 27, 2011, 01:08:27 PM
I ended up watching all the episodes. I just wished they talked more about trans people who don't have support networks, and how they are all white people. The opportunity these trans people have is not offered to trans people regularly so it is not accessible either, I will criticize anything that is put in the public eye especially when it comes to trans politics because they are usually problematic.
You really need to realise that America is not representative of the rest of the world. Things are different in the UK, this is representative of people here.
Quote from: pixiegirl on November 28, 2011, 07:34:55 AM
I do think people are being a bit over-judgemental about this show so far. One, its a reality TV show, not a documentary - think big brother, or castaway or something - the people getting chosen were always going to have to have an appeal that the shows producers would be looking for. It's like x-factor where you need to be trans rather than able to sing. A bit larger than life in some ways is a given. As far as passability goes - well Drew and Donna don't look different from a lot of over made up late teens early twenties girls you'd see every weekend round England. It's a look.
As for it representing rich people - again, this is set in the UK. If you get the NHS approval, then therapy, hormones and surgeries are covered without cost. You can get GCS on minimum wage or drawing unemployment, you don't need to have 20-100,000 to burn or take out loans for. In the latest episode anyway, you get to see Lewis, who was denied top surgery via this route, organise fundraising to get a start on the saving he'll need to get it privately. Seems like everyone so far is on the low end of the wage spectrum, both personally and familialy. Working poor to middle class seems to be the spread.
I did read one comment about the racial make-up that I'd like to address. Again, it's the UK not the US. I'm not saying that there aren't any non-white trans people in the UK, not saying that at all, but the ethnic make up of the country is completely different. The US is something like 13-15% african american and then add to that mixed race Black + white/hispanic/indian/asian in terms of total demographics. The total black population in the UK if you add together the African, Caribbean, and mixed-race Black communities (which are all very different) is maybe a little over 2%.
To put it another way: The producers of the show have narrowed it down to 100 trans people to pick from, and magically these 100 people are representative of racial demographics. If it's being made in the US: 64 are white, 13 black, 9 white hispanic, 5 asian and the rest are native american, mixed race or other ethnicity.
In the UK that split is: 92 are white, 2 are indian, 1 is pakistani, 1 is mixed race, 1 is african, 1 is afro-caribbean and the other 2 are 2 from chinese, non chinese asian, bangladeshi or other. The fact that all the people on the show are white isn't as odd or misrepresentative as it would be in the US.
So far it doesn't seem to be doing too bad.
Really interesting to know all of that pixie I did not expect that response at all.
I have to say, it still limits the show when it comes to my opinion still.
The experience of a gender transition for someone of color is just so different then for a white person. It would have been nice to have but I get the statistics i just don't mind because when it comes down to it, these are still marginalized white people.
I really do enjoy the show though now that I have watched all the episodes my impression changed. I thought it captured my experience quite well as a trans person still transitioning. I love that they talk about genitals, it allows for diversity in our community, and every one was super open about their struggles. I was surprised to see them keep that in. I really related with a mixture of all the trans women on the show.
Seriously, I can't imagine the audacity it takes to be one of the first trans people portraying trans people on reality television in the way it is being portrayed now.
skyanne: Can you elaborate on what you mean? Are you suggesting that I shouldn't even consider talking about race and politics that are outside of the U.S because i'm american and it according to you doesn't affect me? If they started shooting trans people on the streets of Uganda, that represents me still and i'd have an opinion about it :-\ You are right, it's different there, but the way transphobia plays out as we saw on the show in one episode, it's still very similar. I think we all still have things to talk about. Obviously the show has reached media here through youtube. We share the same media outlet. You still make a good point, but what happens anywhere in the trans community regardless of location will still effect us for x,y, and z reasons.
Quote from: Queen Anne's Revenge on November 27, 2011, 12:06:31 PM
Everyone of you ladies must honestly admit to having fears of being a "bad ->-bleeped-<-" at some point. Even if you wouldn't phrase it that way the sentiment is the exact same as fears over bbeing passable, and Sarah is at the very start of her transition. In my opinion she jumped into full time life way too soon but it can't happen overnight.
I can honestly admit to going out as a bad ->-bleeped-<-, when I first came out I went out several times as a woman & whilst I manged to pass (or just met some very polite, understanding people) I was unable to completely hide the shadow as within an hour or 2 after shaving no amount of make-up would hide it.
It took a few close calls for me to see sense & pull back, I find it very hard having to keep things hidden & not go out as female but i've been hit hard with the reality branch & now admit I have to wait until i've had extensive electrolosys & HRt for a while (I'll also be having FFS in the distant future).
My ex has said that whilst me & Sarah don't look alike, when i'm dressed as female then my body language & mannerisms are very much like hers, I also suspect that's because of my nerves & knowledge that I don't pass well, my heart goes out to Sarah because what she's done is far braver than anything I could ever do.
Torn I don't think anyone was saying that you should not read up on or have opinions about anythiong happening outside the USA whether trans related or not. My point and I'm sure the others as well was that you must try to see it from the perspective of the nation or region where it was filmed. Your last post showed that you get it.
I for 1 know how it can be frustrating sometimes as a non-american in an American dominated forum to try and explain the more subtle differences you don't see. The things like driving on the left and spelling words like honour with a "u", which this forums spellcheck doesn't understand ::) are easy for everyone to spot. What can be harder is trying to understand the socio-political climate of a land so far away when everything else seems the same, if you know what I mean.
For example I only recently learned that Americans have a stereotype of "dumb" Polish people. Whereas here they are all silent weightlifting plumbers in stereotype. The real everyday differences can be the most shocking because nobody has made big jokes or T.V. sitcoms have never exploited them for laughs so when you do come across them they seem hard to understand.
Thats my take on what I have been reading here anyway.
Quote from: Queen Anne's Revenge on November 28, 2011, 05:27:51 PM
Torn I don't think anyone was saying that you should not read up on or have opinions about anythiong happening outside the USA whether trans related or not. My point and I'm sure the others as well was that you must try to see it from the perspective of the nation or region where it was filmed. Your last post showed that you get it.
I for 1 know how it can be frustrating sometimes as a non-american in an American dominated forum to try and explain the more subtle differences you don't see. The things like driving on the left and spelling words like honour with a "u", which this forums spellcheck doesn't understand ::) are easy for everyone to spot. What can be harder is trying to understand the socio-political climate of a land so far away when everything else seems the same, if you know what I mean.
For example I only recently learned that Americans have a stereotype of "dumb" Polish people. Whereas here they are all silent weightlifting plumbers in stereotype. The real everyday differences can be the most shocking because nobody has made big jokes or T.V. sitcoms have never exploited them for laughs so when you do come across them they seem hard to understand.
Thats my take on what I have been reading here anyway.
I understand what you're saying. I stick to my issues with the show though not that any one is saying otherwise but i do think I got questioned on whether or not i experience gender dysphoria a page or two back just because i thought our focus on the appearances/voices of the the trans women was rather harsh at certain points as if the point of the show is irrelevant because according to some of us they don't pass well enough ::). (And out of all those women there is only 1 that's really still beginning transition. So we're criticizing women who are meeting transition goals that are difficult and rather then being happy for them we nitpick them for their male attributes and I think that is F'D up and transphobic.) I think I was a bit to vague on what I meant though because I was infuriated, and plus maybe i am so sensitive towards that subject at the moment because my gender dysphoria is shooting through the roof as i wait to start the hormone process in about a month.
i've never heard that stereotype on polish people. I think anyone in america with an accent/ has trouble with communicating in english runs the risk of being deemed stupid. It's unfortunate because they are the ones who are bilingual.
I understand what you mean about the focus on aesthetics but at the end of the day reality T.V. should never be a high water mark for total and balanced understanding. What riled me at the start of this thread was, like you said, why not be happy for people living the life they want and getting support from peers.
I chose the Polish example because it was one I only came across recently. Another one would be how it's baffling to me that politicians could go on a campaign trail saying they are in favour of getting rid of the entire department of education and be taken seriously as a candidate. If you tried that here you'd be carted away.
Quote from: Queen Anne's Revenge on November 28, 2011, 06:11:55 PM
I understand what you mean about the focus on aesthetics but at the end of the day reality T.V. should never be a high water mark for total and balanced understanding. What riled me at the start of this thread was, like you said, why not be happy for people living the life they want and getting support from peers.
I chose the Polish example because it was one I only came across recently. Another one would be how it's baffling to me that politicians could go on a campaign trail saying they are in favour of getting rid of the entire department of education and be taken seriously as a candidate. If you tried that here you'd be carted away.
Youre right about the reality tv bit, I just love to watch how cis gender folks are portraying transgender people on reality television. They're doing this so that they can make money ofcourse so what goes in the show is trying to appease to what audiences? not trans audiences, but other cis gender people.
okay so you're from Ireland. Can I just say.. i love the way you say mirror. :icon_yes:
You're making good examples. Perspective is definitely quite interesting especially when it comes to criticizing shows like these.
Mirror?? okay, random word to pick, i guess it really depends on what regional accent you're talking about I guess. I know that with the "generic" Yank accent it's pronounced "meerr", with only a vague hint of a second syllable :P I find that people always want to hear words like "three" because with a Dublin accent that sounds like "tree". "turty tree and a turd" is always a good one. Someone like Colin Farrell or a comedian called Andrew Maxwell would be a good indicator of my kind of accent, or Mairéad Farrell (no relation to Colin) or Gráine Seoige for the women.
If you want to see the extreme of that listen to an interview with singer Imelda May, you may not understand a word but at least it's real unlike Richard Gere's attempt. It was a massacre of language :'(
A little off topic, I just found that interesting.
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 28, 2011, 05:56:32 PM
but i do think I got questioned on whether or not i experience gender dysphoria a page or two back just because i thought our focus on the appearances/voices of the the trans women was rather harsh at certain points as if the point of the show is irrelevant because according to some of us they don't pass well enough ::)
I was responding to this statement made by you: "what i am pissed at is how the media was hung up on looks being the most important factor when transitioning." I pointed out that for some of us looks is extremely important to us due to it being tied up in our dysphoria, and that your dysphoria MAY be different. I never suggested, nor ever would suggest, that you don't have gender dysphoria - nor did it have anything to do with criticisms levelled at the show.
As for being overly critical of their appearances? I'm not. I'm realistic. And I do find it frustrating that there is an entirely invisibly passable bloke on the show, and not a corresponding girl, because it perpetuates the stereotype that all trans women are visibly trans due to their voice, appearance, or whatever. I find that assumption really disempowering, and pre-transition that kind of misinformation was TERRIFYING (that nobody corrected the woman who said nothing can be done about adam's apples is kind of awful, frankly). So ya, it bothers me. I'm not ->-bleeped-<-ing nitpicking, and I am happy for them. My criticism is levelled at the SHOW, not at them. Regardless, I like the show, but I still have problems with it. That is one.
Quote from: Sarah7 on November 28, 2011, 10:44:40 PM
I was responding to this statement made by you: "what i am pissed at is how the media was hung up on looks being the most important factor when transitioning." I pointed out that for some of us looks is extremely important to us due to it being tied up in our dysphoria, and that your dysphoria MAY be different. I never suggested, nor ever would suggest, that you don't have gender dysphoria - nor did it have anything to do with criticisms levelled at the show.
As for being overly critical of their appearances? I'm not. I'm realistic. And I do find it frustrating that there is an entirely invisibly passable bloke on the show, and not a corresponding girl, because it perpetuates the stereotype that all trans women are visibly trans due to their voice, appearance, or whatever. I find that assumption really disempowering, and pre-transition that kind of misinformation was TERRIFYING (that nobody corrected the woman who said nothing can be done about adam's apples is kind of awful, frankly). So ya, it bothers me. I'm not ->-bleeped-<-ing nitpicking, and I am happy for them. My criticism is levelled at the SHOW, not at them. Regardless, I like the show, but I still have problems with it. That is one.
I am personally concerned on what it means to pass on a mainstream show. Who gets to define passing? and why can't passing be self defined by the trans. person?
i see your point about the adams apple information that wasn't provided, that was a problem.
And looks are extremely important, I understand that, I just worry how cis audiences read that, and if there isn't enough information from the trans people being provided on how their transition has been fulfilling them and not just causing them social problems.
And women have adams apples as well, and some men don't. Such as my bf who was biologically assigned male.
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 28, 2011, 04:18:22 PM
skyanne: Can you elaborate on what you mean? Are you suggesting that I shouldn't even consider talking about race and politics that are outside of the U.S because i'm american and it according to you doesn't affect me? If they started shooting trans people on the streets of Uganda, that represents me still and i'd have an opinion about it :-\ You are right, it's different there, but the way transphobia plays out as we saw on the show in one episode, it's still very similar. I think we all still have things to talk about. Obviously the show has reached media here through youtube. We share the same media outlet. You still make a good point, but what happens anywhere in the trans community regardless of location will still effect us for x,y, and z reasons.
Please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that you don't understand the social and cultural differences. A more appropriate example would be you watching a show about transgendered people in Uganda and complaining about the under representation of white people.
Without understanding that other cultures are not American cultures, your opinions are always going to be misrepresentative.
Ive spoken to a few cis-people who have said they feel that donna and drew from the show both pass (if they werent watching a show with transexual in the title they wouldnt know). Also ive had a load of people saying that the show has opened their eyes to the emotional side of transition difficulties and gender dysphoria. Even if the show has some failings (which it was destined to purely because of the vastly complicated subject matter and the relative lack of information many cis-people would have had before watching it) I think its come a long way from any other trans-show that has aired in the UK
One other thing, i personally think that Drew and Donna both look better than me (better as in more passable) and they definately sound better aswell. Now i KNOW I pass sometimes, not all the time, probably not most of the time, but some of the time i pass. So it sort of hurts me to hear people questioning (or outright denying) their passability.
Quote from: El on November 29, 2011, 04:50:43 AM
Ive spoken to a few cis-people who have said they feel that donna and drew from the show both pass (if they werent watching a show with transexual in the title they wouldnt know).
Exactly.
Transwomen are way too harsh on each other.
Most cispeople are oblivious to things like that.
Quote from: Queen Anne's Revenge on November 28, 2011, 06:11:55 PM
Another one would be how it's baffling to me that politicians could go on a campaign trail saying they are in favour of getting rid of the entire department of education and be taken seriously as a candidate. If you tried that here you'd be carted away.
It baffles me as well, and I live and vote in the USA. American politics, and the complacency of a large percentage of our citizens has gotten pretty scary.
Z
Quote from: Skyanne on November 29, 2011, 02:45:39 AM
Please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that you don't understand the social and cultural differences. A more appropriate example would be you watching a show about transgendered people in Uganda and complaining about the under representation of white people.
Without understanding that other cultures are not American cultures, your opinions are always going to be misrepresentative.
Oh no I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth i just wanted to show you how i was interpreting them when I asked you to elaborate.
And absolutely, I just worry that since there are no people of color on the show the representation of trans bodies is still predominately white.
Transition for a person of color is a completely different story.
I'd be happy if Uganda could even do something like this, or even had access to the media. And yes if there was a misrepresentation of white bodies in Uganda relating to transition i'd be complaining about that to! But white people aren't marginalized in the same ways either.
Like the US, the UK has its masses of people of color as well, it's not completely different but it is as you described mostly white populated.
I'm merely discussing representation of trans bodies and how they are usually always all white people in america and in other places.
It's interesting to me that the argument becomes: It's a white population!
It's the privilege of whiteness that allows people to transition. i think they should have made sure they had ethnic diversity on the show when representing trans bodies. I definitely do alot of complaining and I realize that, but thats how things start to get fixed.
Just because its a white population doesn't mean there aren't trans people of color that live in the UK and are watching this show.And with that logic! It's a cis gender population all over, we might as well just cancel My Transsexual Summer altogether!
See, no, you're still not getting it.
There is no 'white priviledge' here. They're all transitioning on the NHS, meaning it's paid for by the state regardless of colour. Colour has absolutely no bearing on changing ones gender in the UK. You could be green and you would still go through exactly the same process.
Quote from: Skyanne on November 29, 2011, 01:34:45 PM
See, no, you're still not getting it.
There is no 'white priviledge' here. They're all transitioning on the NHS, meaning it's paid for by the state regardless of colour. Colour has absolutely no bearing on changing ones gender in the UK. You could be green and you would still go through exactly the same process.
Maybe this will help
http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf (http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf)
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 29, 2011, 01:41:25 PM
Maybe this will help
http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf (http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf)
Oh my God...the UK is not the US.
Beyond a few stubborn pockets of racism here and there, there is very little difference between being black/asian/white/whatever here. We are not culturally segregated that way.
We are a different country to you with a different culture and different attitudes.
Quote from: Skyanne on November 29, 2011, 01:44:18 PM
Oh my God...the UK is not the US.
Beyond a few stubborn pockets of racism here and there, there is very little difference between being black/asian/white/whatever here. We are not culturally segregated that way.
We are a different country to you with a different culture and different attitudes.
Are you seriously saying that there is no white privilege here in the UK?
Wow there is alot of PC in this thread.
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 29, 2011, 01:41:25 PM
Maybe this will help
http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf (http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf)
Arg... this could get ugly quick. Torn, I see where you're trying to go in terms of a general majority privilege in play; but, you don't seem to be grasping just how different the dynamics are. The privileges play out in different ways. One good example here is healthcare - there are a lot of added barriers in the US towards medical transition because you have to pay for it, and generally POC are less well off economically and less able to access credit. Not a factor in the UK due to the health system, which is mainly Skyannes point.
I could go on and on about differences in culture, history, religion, heritage, stereotypes between coloured populations in the UK and the US, but it would take forever. Your 'privilege of whiteness that allows people to transition' idea is not limited just to financial opportunity, I understand that. But the flat access welfare state model in the UK affects education and benefits access as well as healthcare.
There are trans people of colour in Britain. Some of them are almost certainly watching this show. But what you are just
not getting is that while a bit of ethnic diversity would be nice, given the minority status of trans people in the general population, finding a few for the show would be way more difficult than in the States. I'd like you to think about this - racial/ethnic diversity seems to be your thing; that's fair enough, it's important and it's a big thing in the US - but, it's not as big a social issue in the UK, and if you wanted to diversify the cast of the show, there are probably more disabled trans people than poc in the UK, never mind trans poc, so why not start there? Perhaps you should think about checking the privilages you bring with you before wading in to comment further. Just a thought.
Quote from: Nathan. on November 29, 2011, 02:31:31 PM
Are you seriously saying that there is no white privilege here in the UK?
Compared to the US? Yeah.
Quote from: Skyanne on November 29, 2011, 02:54:59 PM
Compared to the US? Yeah.
but that means it still exists :icon_shakefist:
PIXIEGIRL: completely understand. I still enjoy talking about it. Good point about disabled folks. I stand my ground, this show is problematic but that doesn't mean our dialogue has to get ugly, I hope it doesn't anyway. I think these conversations are necessary.
Must all races be represented in each programme or show, film etc? well why not ban all white people ? because it seems that it is the best solution to all the problems in the world..
Sorry but I am so sick of this. We hear it all the time in this country aswell. That we are bad people, racists, must be more tolerant, our history is nothing of value but the other cultures are everything and bla bla bla bla. In short= We are the scum of the earth.
And the strange thing is that it is almost always white people who is so upset about this. But those are usually the real racists anyway.
Anyway I am not sure if I like the show or not, but it could have been alot worse. It seems like the only one passing is Donna which actually reminds me of a female friend of mine and the guy (cant remember his name) is also someone I would not even hesitate on as being born as a male.
Drew does pass when not talking and I think that she could have chosen a less striking look, some of the clothes draws attention to her being not so curvy and she also seems pretty tall. And the laugh points her out.
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 29, 2011, 03:05:45 PM
but that means it still exists :icon_shakefist:
Sure, but it's not going to get any better by insisting that white and black people are inherently different and a black person can't relate to or learn from the experiences of a white person.
British people are British people, we need to stop splitting people into groups on the basis of physical characteristics.
Quote from: Skyanne on November 29, 2011, 03:22:52 PM
Sure, but it's not going to get any better by insisting that white and black people are inherently different and a black person can't relate to or learn from the experiences of a white person.
British people are British people, we need to stop splitting people into groups on the basis of physical characteristics.
I'll meet you at your perspective, I just don't completely agree because that dismisses culture.
Quote from: Torn1990 on November 29, 2011, 03:32:49 PM
I'll meet you at your perspective, I just don't completely agree because that dismisses culture.
Okay, but that's kinda the point I've been trying to make. In America, you have a real split in the cultures based on race. In Britain our culture is split on class. Skin colour is just not as relevant in determining someones experiences here as it is there.
I think this really has become a case of "2 countries divided by the same language". The culture difference is huge, of course there is racism in the U.K. just look at the BNP. The thing is it's really not the same scale as in the States at all. The class divide is a much bigger thing, as far as I can tell, looking in from a nearby and quite similar country.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I got the feeling that most of those guests on the show were not upper- or even upper-middle class. The possible exceptions are Fox and Max, but mostly because we saw less of their backgrounds and I couldn't place their accents. That to me seems far stranger than the race issue.
Watching the 4th episode now, 4/4 made me cry :( happiness and sadness this time :s