I don't fit in with many other guys because I don't know how to talk to them. I don't know the boundaries, what is considered gay, or how to converse in general.... not because I'm not a guy but because I didn't learn it in childhood like they did.
I can talk to girls easily because I've been raised to do so, though I'm at a complete loss romantically with them and always get friend-zoned. Plus I don't really enjoy their company cause they're so unlike me.
I don't know how to make non-trans male friends - I have a total of 2 and one is stereotypically gay. Does anyone else have this problem, or advice?
I'm ALWAYS in the friend zone when it comes to the ladies. I don't know why, but I am. As far as cis guys. I generally have zero interest in talking to a football watching, beer guzzling cis guy. Not because I have an issue with them or because they're bad, but because I'm not one of them. However, I have had great conversations and friendships with cis guys who were into art and music like me. Those guys and I can talk for hours. So I think it's partially finding the right guy to have that friendship with. If you're into football, talk about it and strike up conversation. If you're into art seek out those kind-of guys. It's finding your niche. Not every cis guy is going to be your friend and you may not have anything in common with some of them. Try to find the ones you do have something in common with and start there. As far as interacting goes, watch other guys. Notice how they talk to each other and interact with each other. Each group will be different. African Americans will interact differently than a white or Hispanic groups. Hell, even cultures will be different. Surfers are a little different than football players. Men in Florida might be different then men in California, etc. Just watch and see and try to imitate. Hope that helps.
I understand.. I have found guys around other guys, and I'm talking blokey blokes - generally give each other crap, talk about girls, bodily functions, sports or what happened out on the sauce! I'm still sometimes unclear on where the boundaries are.. Sometimes I find I go a step too far and have hurt people's feelings - but the incident I'm thinking of, he is also a transguys so perhaps just that female socialisation??! And other times I've had people tell me I stop too soon, like I don't take it far enough!! So now I just don't care - I say what I want filtered for appropriateness obviously but I have stopped thinking 'oh that's not what a guy would say'... I am a guy, and if that's what I want to say, then that's what this guy says - you follow?!! At the other end of the spectrum you can have educational, arty type guys and have completely different conversations - obviously it depends on the person (guy or girl) you're talking to.
I find being yourself is the best way to be! Cliche I know.. But it's true. I too find it easier to chat with girls - but I have also found this to be a good conversation starter with some guys. For example just the other day my partner commented to me after one of the nurses got friendly and boisterous with me in the ED, that I am like best friends with all the pretty girls at the hospital - which led to a 'guys chat' about chicks! I must admit I enjoy the chatting with the ladies a lot of the time - and although I too am mostly in the friend zone, I'm not interested in the majority of them romantically anyways. Don't get me wrong - they're generally really pretty girls and I can appreciate them on that level lmao, but because I'm a friend and not seen as more, generally I get a little closer than other guys if that makes sense, like 'how do my boobs/ass look in this' etc hahaha!
My best advice would be to 'act as if'. Same principle as using the men's room - act like you're supposed to be there and be the guy you are. Blokes are simple creatures generally speaking - we take stuff at face value most of the time. So if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck - I'm gonna treat it as a duck! At most they may just see you as a different kind of duck - make sense buddy??!! It's a big thing to adjust to - I was socialised as 'female' for the better part of 25 years! It's not something that just happens overnight but I can promise it does get easier as you grow into the man you have always been ;)
j.
@ Aussie Jay, that was really helpful advice. I've been feeling the same way as the OP here... Very difficult knowing how to interact with guys. I feel very self conscious around them, I'm pretty camp personality wise and I've made points that I'm not going to try to be a macho man because, right now, that isn't me at all. But I feel like I have to kind of put it on a bit around certain guys. And I'm really good at making friends and talking to girls and everything... But the problem is, I like the company but when i hang with girls I don't pass, when I hang with guys I do more often than not.
I think I will just be myself as much as i feel comfortable with... Like, I'm happy if I get read as a gay guy because at least I'm being read as a guy, and being read as gay to me is like being vegetarian or something... Or like someone saying my hair is black when it's brown. I like girls, I like bacon, it's a preference. But on the other hand, I don't want guys to think I'm er, flirting? Or feel uncomfortable around me? Ah I don't know. I feel like all social interactions will be better when I am on T and I pass most of the time... Trying to guess what gender people think I am, trying to drop hints that nobody listens to... Eh... Because I'd be totally fine being flirty and camp around everyone as long as they know I'm a dude. When guys start trying it on, who think I'm female... I just think, how low are you going? I must be the butchest female you've ever seen, I make a godawful ugly lady, and if anything, I'm a lesbian... Just no... Come on... This stops me interacting with guys too, because I am a nerd and I hang around other loser nerds - and meet new loser nerds, and if a ''girl'' likes ubuntu and mass effect suddenly, no friendship just lusty eyes. Makes me feel a bit sick :P
Does interacting with other guys get better once on T, or is it more of an experience thing - the more you do it the more you know how to?
Sorry to ramble. :)
Quote from: Aussie Jay on November 27, 2011, 04:52:13 PM
I understand.. I have found guys around other guys, and I'm talking blokey blokes - generally give each other crap, talk about girls, bodily functions, sports or what happened out on the sauce! I'm still sometimes unclear on where the boundaries are.. Sometimes I find I go a step too far and have hurt people's feelings - but the incident I'm thinking of, he is also a transguys so perhaps just that female socialisation??! And other times I've had people tell me I stop too soon, like I don't take it far enough!! So now I just don't care - I say what I want filtered for appropriateness obviously but I have stopped thinking 'oh that's not what a guy would say'... I am a guy, and if that's what I want to say, then that's what this guy says - you follow?!! At the other end of the spectrum you can have educational, arty type guys and have completely different conversations - obviously it depends on the person (guy or girl) you're talking to.
I find being yourself is the best way to be! Cliche I know.. But it's true. I too find it easier to chat with girls - but I have also found this to be a good conversation starter with some guys. For example just the other day my partner commented to me after one of the nurses got friendly and boisterous with me in the ED, that I am like best friends with all the pretty girls at the hospital - which led to a 'guys chat' about chicks! I must admit I enjoy the chatting with the ladies a lot of the time - and although I too am mostly in the friend zone, I'm not interested in the majority of them romantically anyways. Don't get me wrong - they're generally really pretty girls and I can appreciate them on that level lmao, but because I'm a friend and not seen as more, generally I get a little closer than other guys if that makes sense, like 'how do my boobs/ass look in this' etc hahaha!
My best advice would be to 'act as if'. Same principle as using the men's room - act like you're supposed to be there and be the guy you are. Blokes are simple creatures generally speaking - we take stuff at face value most of the time. So if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck - I'm gonna treat it as a duck! At most they may just see you as a different kind of duck - make sense buddy??!! It's a big thing to adjust to - I was socialised as 'female' for the better part of 25 years! It's not something that just happens overnight but I can promise it does get easier as you grow into the man you have always been ;)
j.
Thanks... very helpful. I'll try to remember that. +1
Quote from: DevinJV on November 27, 2011, 05:46:46 PM
Does interacting with other guys get better once on T, or is it more of an experience thing - the more you do it the more you know how to?
Yeah it got easier for me. They don't look down upon me like a child anymore now that I don't speak with a squeaking high voice. I'm more confident around them. However, it doesn't resolve everything.
Quote from: Gifted on November 27, 2011, 04:10:11 PMI don't know the boundaries, what is considered gay, or how to converse in general
1) Whatever you do or say, act like you meant to do it.
2) If someone else disagrees with something you did or said, then REALLY act like you meant to do it.
3) If you're not sure whether something will be considered gay, then it probably will be.
Thanks guys - I try ;D! At first I thought blokes would see me as some sort of 'fake' guy you know - pre T especially!! It felt unfair to ask people to just accept me as a man. So in the beginning, I found myself content somewhat to socialise with girls and lesbians as that is all I had ever really known from 13yo onwards! I think too I saw it as a connection to my former self! Also at first I thought I was more genderfluid or genderqueer rather than simple male or female. I was a little afraid I would lose myself - but as I realised I was becoming more myself than I had ever been - realising that I was just male (and nothing in between) and as my need to be seen and pass increased - I tried to break away from that scene and the way to do that for me, was to make guy friends I could go out and socialise with - for my sanity I had to take that step back from the girls. I spent a lot of time at home avoiding them and wherever I could I hung out with dudes. Even when I felt out of my comfort zone I knew it was what I needed to do..
I still sometimes just want to hang out with the guys! All guys do, it's natural! I like my girl and lesbian friends don't get me wrong but at times they're a lot of work hahaha!! But I hardly worry about being seen as one of them anymore. I too, especially around chicks initially got mistaken for a gay man! Like you I didn't overly mind that as it was still being read as a guy!! But that seems to have stopped now too.. As the T changed my voice and my face it also became easier to slip into 'man' spaces and I just began observing more closely interactions between men, and men and women for that matter! I still do it from time to time.. Imitation, monkey see, monkey do - exactly the same thing kids do growing up and what I did when I was trying to fit in in my teen years with the girls.. It really can help, even movies and TV shows. And I just found over time some of my more feminine traits and mannerisms disappeared as I adopted new masculine ones I witnessed in my people watching :laugh:
Watch and learn - I spent years watching the way cisguys interact with one another. And no I'm not talking about ass-slapping post-footy beer-swilling fun, but the subtle cues, use of eye contact or lack of, taking up physical space, how comments are responded to, etc. I will not be able to do much socialising with cisguys until my voice dysphoria is resolved, but the few that I know treat me like one of them and know I'm trans.
It's a weird thing that most people don't consider about being trans. Sure, we are the gender that we identify as but we haven't had the fortune of years of gender grooming (replaced by unfortunate years of the wrong training). I have about an even mix of friends, perhaps more male-centered if they're not perfectly equal. I'd suggest going to groups and places for people with special interests to meet. I've gone to various groups and having something in common is a great icebreaker. Meeting friends of friends is something that's helpful too. Guys hang around with a lot of other guys and I've made plenty of friendships by just meeting them from time with other mates. In that case, the friend can be an icebreaker and your friend might have good taste in company. The third best way is to be friendly but not overly so. A lot of guys don't go around grinning and shaking hands but don't be afraid to be a little extroverted and not take random opportunities for granted. Chance has introduced me to some people I'm pretty close with.
As for the social cues, I suppose there's not much to do but sit and watch. I made friends with two cis guys this year starting college and they were track running hockey playing guys who were pretty stereotypically male. They were funny though, so we became friends and when we hung out I noticed boundaries and jokes and gestures. I was a pretty quick learner and most of it felt relatively natural anyway. :D
I've always had it easier making friends with guys than with girls. I suppose it helps that more guys than girls play video games, so at least there's that topic of conversation. I hang out with fellow nerds, so we talk about things like the hypothetical fourth dimension, ridiculous bugs in Skyrim, tabletop sessions we've had which were ridiculous, films we've seen... Most of my friends have Asperger's, so they may not be the best "role models" for things like body language. We don't really care about what's considered gay or not, since prejudice is stupid and a primitive rest of that apelike tribal behaviour.
Find guys with your interests.
Talk to them about said interests.
Impress them with factual knowledge about these interests.
Friends gained!
I'm currently a member of a Facebook group while stealth (I don't really like this term but I don't know what to replace it with), and it's a nice opportunity to socialize with cis-guys. It's a group for bronies, teenage male fans of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, so I suppose some of the "normal" parts of social interaction between guys may have fallen out of use. We're quite open about emotions, and can express that things are cute, which appears to be a no-no based on information gathered from threads here.
Sorry to make such a long and uninformative post. Maybe it has something mildly useful in it, you be the judge.
I only have 1 cis-male friend. He's the coordinator of our GLBTQ group, so we agreed not too get too friendy. But I really have no overwhelming desire to befriend say....straight cis-men. I'd actually just rather be friendless if there's drama and problems with my female friends.
I was beat up regularly by an ex-friend in primary school. He turned on me, and recruited 5 other guys to beat me up regularly for the next few years. I haven't really had a male friend at all since. So I guess that ruined friendships with guys for me.
Like other folks here, I recommend that you just find groups that have the same interests--gaming groups, knitting groups. Whatever. Spend time with the guys in those groups. Keep your eyes open. If you're worried that they'll clock you, start out with groups outside your usual stomping grounds. If the experiment goes well, keep going. If it doesn't, try another group.
I have rarely spent time with women in my adult life. Maybe that's why I fit in with the guys so well. So I suppose being steeped in male company helped me to pick up on all sorts of cues and body language. I guess I unconsciously do things and say things a certain way that people tend to read as male.
But I'm still pretty stupid at sussing out when other men are interested--at least, I don't figure it out till afterward, when it's too late to divert them. I thought that gay men would be much more up-front about hitting on other men, but that isn't always the case. I have a much older guy who seems to be interested, and only after I replayed our first conversation did I realize that my responses were exactly what I shouldn't have said if I wanted to dissuade him. Sigh.
I know what you mean and I agree that it is easier once on T. Since I have a male voice (and facial hair) I don't get guys trying to get me to prove myself more. I have a tough time occasionally because I don't like sports and I hate saying that because it sounds like a typical 'trans guy' thing to say (I'm stealth but I mean to those who know it seems unmanly of me) so I just justify it by saying I'm the nerd type. I try to find guys into video games and it seems to work a lot better.
I admit that at my work I act more masculine than I am around other men for the sake of socialization. But what's weird is that I still have managed to have more female friends at work while stealth though that might be because I am always paired up with women. I find it harder because my girlfriend really doesn't like it and thinks I should try to find more guy friends and I find myself in an odd situation where I want to hang out with girls but it looks and seems too inappropriate when I am used to it not being that way.
I actually wanted to add that I'm not too concerned about hanging out with men in particular. I just want to meet people and if they're all female so be it. I just want to be comfortable with myself and those I'm around. I don't care who it is I'm around as long as it works and they are awesome people.
I generally have zero interest in talking to a football watching, beer guzzling cis guy... However, I have had great conversations and friendships with cis guys who were into art and music ...
You know what I usually end up talking about with the guys in the band? Sports. You know what my jock friends want to talk about? Music. Drinking - something that both sides agree on. There is a reason that they tend to serve drinks with art, music and sports.
I'm a Cis guy..and i find it easier to talk to girls. When you talk to your close friends what do you talk about? I find that even with 'newbies'friends the topic has to go in the right direction for me and if not then its pointless. If you're not interested in 'art' then perhaps find common things you can deviate until you get something you do want to talk about. talk about experiences,what happened at work, your saving for a trip,have they been on a trip to a nice place...where is it? heaps to talk about.Something that came on the news,morning show.
Ask what they did,what they're doing, what places they like to visit...endless branches off that.
Try the positive approach,like "....then there's Derek,I really like working for Derek because being self employed,usually I've got a few jobs on at a time.Derek never hassles me and always pays on time." not "Rays a prick, i worked for him yesterday,and had to leave at lunchtime.About an hour later hes sending me texts asking where I am,I shouldn't have even started the job had i known what he was like."
The person you'r talking to will then probably tell you their story and you can feel the vibe whether they're going to be a good 'conversation buddy' or not. I don't like the footy talk,nor do I keep up with it.Occasionally ill hang around the Boys to hear it,and ask a few Q's to join in but the answers are usually at the furthest place in my mind by the next day.Hope that helped
Kristyn
I would kind of like to be friends with more guys, as all of my close friends are girls and I don't get a chance to interact with guys much. However, it doesn't bother me much. After all, I like them and the things we do together, so does their gender really matter?
I think it really depends on the locals, the area you live in. A lot of people are or eventually become products of their environment, at least somewhat.
I've had some friends I've had for a long time here, and thanks to my chattering about being nomadic and On the Road in my middle school and early high school years a few of them are into traveling, hitchhiking, survival/wilderness skills. So it's easy to be around them. I definitely have more female than male friends but I don't think about it personally, although I can tell some parents/adults notice it and perhaps wonder, in silent spaces and strange looks occasionally.
If I were you I'd just try to seek out friends with similar interests, that might say something about your lifestyle. For example, dumpster diving, crafts, music, etc.
i have trouble making guy friends i have one straight cis guy friend we only became friends because he is extremely friendly. i find it really hard to make friends both girl and guy friends but im better at talking to girls then guys. which might be why a lot of girls like me, im good at talking to them.
I think you guys are making too big a deal over this. I've had mostly male friends since childhood and it's not as though there is some "magical generalized way" that guys interact, unless you want to limit your interactions to insecure types who put up the whole macho facade. Then you pretty much have to learn to play the stereotypical jock/womanizer. Just act like yourself. The only thing that I've noticed (I've always been the opposite of what you described, I've always found it easier to interact with guys than girls. I always get the impression I have to be careful what I say around women, for some reason.) is that some women tend to take things much more seriously. But then in that case it really depends on the girl as well (or the guy for that matter). I've met many girls who also don't give a ->-bleeped-<-/aren't too caught up in "looking good" to have fun.
Then again, it could be a subculture thing. Most of my friends have been metalheads and gamers, and we tend to be a bit of a cruder bunch.
I've personally never had trouble interacting with guys, in my experience there are actually fewer social 'rules' with guys than with girls, and it's more okay if you accidentally offend someone.
This probably depends on what type of guys you're trying to talk to, but usually you can tell how a person wants to talk within a few minutes...so just be yourself. You don't have to worry so much about whether you're following some big invisible set of rules, everyone is probably too busy thinking about how they are portraying themselves to think too deeply on what you're doing.
Quote from: Berserk on November 30, 2011, 04:06:06 PM
Then again, it could be a subculture thing. Most of my friends have been metalheads and gamers, and we tend to be a bit of a cruder bunch.
metalheads are easy to befriend.
guy1: i like children of bodom
guy 2: me too!
guy 1: best friends!