A recent thread about the drama with the elitist post-ops sprouted a question in my mind after I've made observations online and in real life among the TG/TS people I know.
It seems like there is a pecking order in the TG/TS hierachy, going like this:
Post-op w/wo implants
Pre-op on hormones and w/implants
Pre-op on hormones and w/o implants
Non-op, but dressed full time
Non-op, but dressed part time
Andro/Transgendered, but dress occasionally
Closeted dresser
Feti->-bleeped-<-ic ->-bleeped-<-
What do you think? I have consistently observed for the most part, in the descending order, one looks down on the next one with superiority and an upturned nose, and so on.
Eh, I don't pay any mind to it. If you like me, great. If you don't, doesn't bother me. If you feel you are superior to me, you'll only be impressing yourself.
I'm Jesus, so...
If I were to put any stock into this, I'd say age of starting hrt is a factor, with girls like Kim Petras being at the top (or "luckiest" being a better description). But I don't.
Quote from: stldrmgrl on November 30, 2011, 08:11:34 PM
Eh, I don't pay any mind to it. If you like me, great. If you don't, doesn't bother me. If you feel you are superior to me, you'll only be impressing yourself.
Agreed.
Quote from: MsDazzler on November 30, 2011, 08:04:05 PM
Non-op, but dressed full time
Even though I am not non-op, I think the way this is written, it seems to imply that they are just full time crossdressers, not the best way to phrase that, to be honest. They do take hormones and live their lives as women, they just don't take the candles off the cake after they blow them out.
I've sworn to myself that if I ever got implants and/or SRS, I would never become haughty and lord it over my fellow sisters who have not received either of them.
Quote from: MsDazzler on November 30, 2011, 08:04:05 PM
A recent thread about the drama with the elitist post-ops sprouted a question in my mind after I've made observations online and in real life among the TG/TS people I know.
It seems like there is a pecking order in the TG/TS hierachy, going like this:
Post-op w/wo implants
Pre-op on hormones and w/implants
Pre-op on hormones and w/o implants
Non-op, but dressed full time
Non-op, but dressed part time
Andro/Transgendered, but dress occasionally
Closeted dresser
Feti->-bleeped-<-ic ->-bleeped-<-
What do you think? I have consistently observed for the most part, in the descending order, one looks down on the next one with superiority and an upturned nose, and so on.
I think its a pretty interesting theory, but I wouldn't say all of what category looks down at the next one with superiority.
I also seen threads similar where it may seem that way.
But so far what I seen(I'm still new here so, HEY THERE ;)!!) so far surprised me :o. I've seen people look down just like your saying. And its very possible that it may be related to the hierarchy, but not absolute. Each level in your hierarchy reaches another extreme level in a transition process. Like so far I consider myself an IDK-op lol. but really I'm at the Non-op, but dressed part time Level. But during my transition so far I started out as a closeted dresser -> Andro/Transgendered, but occasionally -> Non-op, but dressed part time. As far as looking down, I don't. However, I can see where this can easily happen. Some people may have a belief that since they reached a higher extreme and accomplished so much that it may give them empowerment and possibly an envy shift. An envy shift of wanting to be a girl/boy for so much and so long that now they reached it, where does that energy go now? Possibly for some people it all that energy goes the other way were they feel they should be envied; and ..
I'll stop there. I'm just F'n around with theories. lol.
I'm just going with your logic of thinking. But I still think its just some people acting that way and not everyone at the level of hierarchy.
Hugs for everyone :)
Quote from: stldrmgrl on November 30, 2011, 08:11:34 PM
Eh, I don't pay any mind to it. If you like me, great. If you don't, doesn't bother me. If you feel you are superior to me, you'll only be impressing yourself.
^ this
I don't think there's a hierarchy. It's more like, when someone calls themselves a woman because they compulsively stole their mother's underwear, you can't help but go....
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyVqA5.jpg&hash=bf31baf1c8065f1e367faef72f4fa2a5e602e667)
Quote from: pretty on November 30, 2011, 10:41:32 PM
I don't think there's a hierarchy. It's more like, when someone calls themselves a woman because they compulsively stole their mother's underwear, you can't help but go....
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyVqA5.jpg&hash=bf31baf1c8065f1e367faef72f4fa2a5e602e667)
I stole my Mom's underwear though and turned into a shirt for me!
I think I'm at the bottom, since I embody all those catty gay stereotypes!!! LOL... I'm a transgender performer/dancer(Think an adorable Amanda Leopore)...part time drag queen. I'd rather sleep with a bi/gay man than any straight guys. T-Girls be hating on me cuz I was the "gay best friend" of girls first...LOL
But seriously, there is no heirarchy... You can get srs and not know how to socialize as a woman.
I've never been aware of a hierarchy and I do not think there is anything useful in the concept. I have friends in all of your 'categories' and we all get on as friends and sisters.
Cindy
I haven't noticed it locally, but have become aware of a similar thing amongst some Lesbians.
well, if you went to Divas (a transgender night club in SF), you can see all the pecking order in its glory, lol. The tentative or newbie crossdressers tend to sit in the back and dark, being passed over and ignored in lieu for the implanted Barbie TS dolls by panting men. ;)
And let s not go into how they flaunt their boobs and asses in the bathroom and outside on the street, heh. You can just see the superior attitudes radiating from them.
A lot of people are concerned with pecking order and looking down and looking up. I try not to concern myself with those people. If they don't want to hang with me I don't want to hang with them. I like hanging with all nice people!
I thought the hierarchy went
1/ Me
2/ everyone else
;)
Quote from: MsDazzler on December 01, 2011, 08:44:05 PM
well, if you went to Divas (a transgender night club in SF), you can see all the pecking order in its glory, lol. The tentative or newbie crossdressers tend to sit in the back and dark, being passed over and ignored in lieu for the implanted Barbie TS dolls by panting men. ;)
I think you should check out Power Exchange. Thats where all the cool folks hang out. LOL.
Perfect place to go and spread your legs. ;)
Quote from: MsDazzler on December 01, 2011, 08:44:05 PM
And let s not go into how they flaunt their boobs and asses in the bathroom and outside on the street, heh. You can just see the superior attitudes radiating from them.
Yeah, I avoid the Loins it's a modern day Ethiopia...I want a decent man, not some guy who wants to boing me for my dick, at least gay men are out of the closet...preferably the Castro, Marina, Haight, or Richmond. But hell no, I avoid the Mission and The Loins.
Quote from: MsDazzler on December 01, 2011, 08:44:05 PM
well, if you went to Divas (a transgender night club in SF), you can see all the pecking order in its glory, lol. The tentative or newbie crossdressers tend to sit in the back and dark, being passed over and ignored in lieu for the implanted Barbie TS dolls by panting men. ;)
And let s not go into how they flaunt their boobs and asses in the bathroom and outside on the street, heh. You can just see the superior attitudes radiating from them.
Why would you assume that's indicative of the wider community? I think our sampling here at Susan's is far more representative. Here we mostly be normal folk.
Quote from: Colleen Ireland on December 03, 2011, 10:03:24 PM
Why would you assume that's indicative of the wider community? I think our sampling here at Susan's is far more representative. Here we mostly be normal folk.
Not really. A lot of the types here wouldn't be caught dead at Power Exchange or DIVAS. Most of the transwomen here are like computer programmers and nerdy. They reflect the large "silent" community which seems to be getting a large amount of exposure as of late.
My point exactly. I, for one, am a computer programmer, but nobody would call me nerdy.
Quote from: Colleen Ireland on December 03, 2011, 10:30:08 PM
My point exactly. I, for one, am a computer programmer, but nobody would call me nerdy.
How are you sure they wouldn't?
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 03, 2011, 10:14:29 PM
Not really. A lot of the types here wouldn't be caught dead at Power Exchange or DIVAS. Most of the transwomen here are like computer programmers and nerdy. They reflect the large "silent" community which seems to be getting a large amount of exposure as of late.
And that was her point. Most of us wouldn't be at a drag club because as she said we're normal everyday people. You don't have to be into drag to be a transsexual woman. Even you yourself said "They reflect the large "silent" community."
Also how many of us live where there is no such local outlet? We have 1 gay club in the area and it serves for all of LGBT. I'm sure there are areas where you would have to drive to get to even that type of club. Are you saying that there are no transsexuals there?
This whole ->-bleeped-<-r than thou idea that pops up every so often is a ridiculous idea that is HURTING our community. We're already a very small minority we can't afford to fight amongst ourselves.
And just what is wrong with 'computer programmers' :P
ive seen that hierarchy (for the most part) played out on Susan's during two different events. It's a nasty hierarchy to be sure.
Quote from: Annah on December 03, 2011, 10:42:24 PM
ive seen that hierarchy (for the most part) played out on Susan's during two different events. It's a nasty hierarchy to be sure.
One was when I called for respect over being a non op.
I don't care either way about the heirarchy...I can turn off my computer and resume to normal life. Some of us are nerds, some of us used to be gay man, some are more femme than others. Doesn't give anyone else an advantage over anyone else.
Quote from: Jeneva on December 03, 2011, 10:35:29 PM
And just what is wrong with 'computer programmers' :P
Nothing. Just we come from different places on the trans scale.
welll i admit to being a nerd - i love video games!!! :)
and speaking of divas, I am going there tonight myself. should be interesting! :)
Quote from: MsDazzler on December 03, 2011, 11:06:15 PM
welll i admit to being a nerd - i love video games!!! :)
and speaking of divas, I am going there tonight myself. should be interesting! :)
Oh.... got pics?
unfortunately, the ones at the top of that hierarchy who think they're all that and a bag of chips are blinded by the fact that they are considered lowest of the low in terms of the larger hierarchy of being a "real man" or "real woman." so, the only hierarchy i follow is my own.
Unknown where I am placed on this and I don't care.
I'm transgender. Not by choice.
I'm non-op. I cannot afford any surgery of any kind with my limited income.
I'm on HRT. This does a lot to quell my dysphoria and actually improved my physical health. I'm not going off of it anytime soon.
I have not crossdressed during this attempt....Yet.
I have not been called by a female pronoun by anyone outside the TG community. I'm too old to care about what others address me as.
To me there shouldn't be any hierarchy here. Just those that are more experienced in this process who can advise the rest of us through it.
Meow.
Joelene
I'm on top and it feels good. :)
Quote from: FullMoon19 on December 04, 2011, 01:17:21 AM
unfortunately, the ones at the top of that hierarchy who think they're all that and a bag of chips are blinded by the fact that they are considered lowest of the low in terms of the larger hierarchy of being a "real man" or "real woman." so, the only hierarchy i follow is my own.
Getting the surgery doesn't make someone else better than anyone, nor does prancing around on a stage.
You mean the cisgender heirarchy?
I'm sure there some people that are elitist, But I want to go Op, and I'll probable ghost after. I mean going post op for me will be more because I just want to be a girl. I don't want to beheld up as trans. Just a girl. So I figure the girls that stick around after are in it for more complicated reasons.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 04, 2011, 01:23:18 AM
Getting the surgery doesn't make someone else better than anyone, nor does prancing around on a stage.
You mean the cisgender heirarchy?
right, i meant cisgender. since there's more cisgender people than transgender, the larger society isn't convinced our genders are "real."
Quote from: FullMoon19 on December 04, 2011, 02:21:26 AM
right, i meant cisgender. since there's more cisgender people than transgender, the larger society isn't convinced our genders are "real."
And yet we tear each other apart with rusty hooks. I mean society is finally accepting gay people, if you ignore the suicides.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on December 04, 2011, 02:21:26 AM
right, i meant cisgender. since there's more cisgender people than transgender, the larger society isn't convinced our genders are "real."
Oddly enough, nobody in the larger society ever said I wasn't real. That only happens on transgender forums.
You can get srs and not know how to socialize as a woman.
True that, and I've seen people who work the street the other way only to find out that once you're 'one of the boys' they really don't act any nicer to you and they are not going to change the rules for you.
Really, this stuff only works in two ways. One, it's lets people who have terminally low-esteem issues have one more issue, and it lets deluded people have one more delusion. Other than that I think most people just ignore it and since I never see it play out in real live I just assume it's some sort of 'blog' thing and that makes it even easier to ignore..
Any time one looks down on the other is because of insecurity within one self. Pretentious behavior and prejudice are the fruit of such fear of others, and fear of self, having unresolved issues. No surprise that transgender folks would fall into a "unresolved issues" category, but it is not reserved only to us but also to the entire population at hand.
I would suspect that in fact transgender population has way lower instance of such behavior because we had been exposed to prejudice our selves and know how much it can hurt, therefore, grow more tolerant and accepting.
I for one accept any form of human expression because I know that acceptance is the most basic of human needs. This isn't to say that I am any sort of a saint :) NO, in fact I do have moments of doubt, and seeing a crossdresser making no effort to seem at the least feminine and then making a comment to me about me wearing jeans and not "the proper attire such as a dress" drives me nuts at first! But then I smile, perhaps say "it isn't clothes which make the woman" and resume the conversation wanting to know more about the person and perhaps their story and why the world is the way it is.
Quote from: Jennifer.L on December 04, 2011, 02:09:12 AM
So I figure the girls that stick around after are in it for more complicated reasons.
Some who are post op are here to support others and to be a voice against those others who feel it is best that they can forcefully try to label someone based upon their own convictions.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftransgirldiaries.com%2Fcomics%2F2009-10-07-20091007.gif&hash=620a291b0e836966a5d821ffca6d8d74950d45f8)
http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=123 (http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=123)
Quote from: Sunnynight on December 04, 2011, 11:23:06 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftransgirldiaries.com%2Fcomics%2F2009-10-07-20091007.gif&hash=620a291b0e836966a5d821ffca6d8d74950d45f8)
http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=123 (http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=123)
that is what some people follow on here. anyway, how does one manage to be an XX intersexed transsexual? there's also such thing as trisomy x. when some has three x chromosomes, which makes them more womanly than cisgender women. gemma ward has it.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi817.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz94%2FMaylene466%2F990626gemma_ward_thumb-makeupforwoman.jpg&hash=c8c21531a5c8b372146de7ea3486b3635ef29b16)
Quote from: Sunnynight on December 04, 2011, 11:23:06 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftransgirldiaries.com%2Fcomics%2F2009-10-07-20091007.gif&hash=620a291b0e836966a5d821ffca6d8d74950d45f8)
http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=123 (http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=123)
hmmm i guess i fall on the sixth scale currently...
Kia Ora,
::) When it comes to what trans-people think of each other in the cyber world or support group setting, is irrelevant, it's what happens when living in the real cis world that counts...
::) I was a pre-op blender[for 4 years] and now I'm a post-op blender[for the past 6 years]- I use the term blender in the sense cis society accepted my affirmed gender identity and treated me as such and that for me was the only thing that counts...
::) Who really gives a toss what other trans-people [pre, non, or post -op] think...One is only creating more problems for themselves if they do.
::) Like others here, I have the luxury of participating in this cyber world forum wearing my trans-cap as and when I please and once off the computer the cap comes off and I slot back into the cis [real] world as a female [be it a neo-cis female]...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: FullMoon19 on December 04, 2011, 01:10:17 PM
that is what some people follow on here. anyway, how does one manage to be an XX intersexed transsexual?
Well I can relate to this. I am technically intersex (more than just the chromosome IS) and I classify myself as transgender a lot. I do have a reason:
I presented male for most of my life. Now I present female. To me, I transed the gender identification....crossed.
Others may disagree but eh, it's fine. It's how I describe who I am.