I have noticed a few of us MTF's are suffering some symptoms that can be found in this list. The list comes from Dr Lee's website on estrogen dominance. I have a number of these symptoms and next Tuesday I am going to see a new Dr who has the knowledge to treat this condition.
This is a shortend list. The symptoms that were clearly related to a GG's body have not been listed.
Allergies
Cold hands and feet as a symptom of thyroid dysfunction
Copper excess
Decreased sex drive
Depression with anxiety or agitation
Dry eyes
Fat gain especially around the abdomen, hips and thighs
Fatigue
Foggy thinking
Gallblader disease
Hair loss
Headaches
Hypoglycemia
Increased blood clotting
Irritability
Insomnia
Magnesium deficiency
Memmory loss
Mood swings
Zinc deficency
With HRT we are exposed to high estrogen and many of us are not taking progesterone. My dr never told me about these possible effects. They may not even know about them. Progesterone is the treatment for these symptoms.
Huggs
Emily
Provided URL of Dr. Lee !
Quote from: Emily Ray on December 01, 2011, 05:45:16 PM
I have noticed a few of us MTF's are suffering some symptoms that can be found in this list. The list comes from Dr Lee's website on estrogen dominance. I have a number of these symptoms and next Tuesday I am going to see a new Dr who has the knowledge to treat this condition.
This is a shortend list. The symptoms that were clearly related to a GG's body have not been listed.
Allergies
Cold hands and feet as a symptom of thyroid dysfunction
Copper excess
Decreased sex drive
Depression with anxiety or agitation
Dry eyes
Fat gain especially around the abdomen, hips and thighs
Fatigue
Foggy thinking
Gallblader disease
Hair loss
Headaches
Hypoglycemia
Increased blood clotting
Irritability
Insomnia
Magnesium deficiency
Memmory loss
Mood swings
Zinc deficency
With HRT we are exposed to high estrogen and many of us are not taking progesterone. My dr never told me about these possible effects. They may not even know about them. Progesterone is the treatment for these symptoms.
Huggs
Emily
How many of these symptoms you had before HRT ? Do you suffer from other illnes ?
Do you have any idea of how many other things could cause these symptoms? Trying to blame it on not taking progestrone is going way too far.
Lol not really.
My only symptom is sexiness.
I may not have made myself clear and for that I apologize. I don't have all of these symptoms myself but those that I do have developed since I started HRT. Aside from the the promlems I have from the list above I am in perfect health and have been my whole life. I am not blaming all of them on progesterone deficiency. That is Dr Lee's position and that of many other doctors who are involved with women's health. If you don't think your symptoms are related to progesterone then you don't have to take it. But, you cannot discount the possibility. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions as I have done. Dr lee is a respected physician and has been treating estrogen doninance a term he coined and is now used by researchers in womens health.
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/estrogen_dom.html (http://www.johnleemd.com/store/estrogen_dom.html)
Other doctors who support Dr Lee's opinion
http://www.drnorthrup.com/womenshealth/healthcenter/topic_details.php?topic_id=118 (http://www.drnorthrup.com/womenshealth/healthcenter/topic_details.php?topic_id=118)
http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/183 (http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/183)
http://www.drlam.com/articles/Estrogen_Dominance.asp (http://www.drlam.com/articles/Estrogen_Dominance.asp)
http://www.drrind.com/therapies/estrogen-dominance (http://www.drrind.com/therapies/estrogen-dominance)
http://drbenkim.com/estrogen-dominance-health.htm (http://drbenkim.com/estrogen-dominance-health.htm)
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging-estrogen-progesterone.shtml (http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging-estrogen-progesterone.shtml)
Huggs
Emily
Quote from: Emily Ray on December 01, 2011, 07:45:23 PM
I may not have made myself clear and for that I apologize. I don't have all of these symptoms myself but those that I do have developed since I started HRT. Aside from the the promlems I have from the list above I am in perfect health and have been my whole life. I am not blaming all of them on progesterone deficiency. That is Dr Lee's position and that of many other doctors who are involved with women's health. If you don't think your symptoms are related to progesterone then you don't have to take it. But, you cannot discount the possibility. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions as I have done. Dr lee is a respected physician and has been treating estrogen doninance a term he coined and is now used by researchers in womens health.
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/estrogen_dom.html (http://www.johnleemd.com/store/estrogen_dom.html)
Other doctors who support Dr Lee's opinion
http://www.drnorthrup.com/womenshealth/healthcenter/topic_details.php?topic_id=118 (http://www.drnorthrup.com/womenshealth/healthcenter/topic_details.php?topic_id=118)
http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/183 (http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/183)
http://www.drlam.com/articles/Estrogen_Dominance.asp (http://www.drlam.com/articles/Estrogen_Dominance.asp)
http://www.drrind.com/therapies/estrogen-dominance (http://www.drrind.com/therapies/estrogen-dominance)
http://drbenkim.com/estrogen-dominance-health.htm (http://drbenkim.com/estrogen-dominance-health.htm)
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging-estrogen-progesterone.shtml (http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging-estrogen-progesterone.shtml)
Huggs
Emily
Look Girl, i do not want to burst your bubble but none of your linked doctors is woth anything, all of them just want to sell you something/
It al looks to me like snake oil BS
Yes, they want to sell you a $20.00 bottle of progesterone cream or a book. That doesn't make their ideas snake oil. If you want articles from medical journals then go to google scholar and research there. Maybe you would like me to open your pill bottles for you too. I don't have a horse in this race, I am only trying to help my sisters who are suffering very real symptoms that you haven't offered any solutions for.
http://m.aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/114/2/209 (http://m.aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/114/2/209)
http://www.ocala.com/article/20111101/COLUMNISTS/111039957?p=2&tc=pg (http://www.ocala.com/article/20111101/COLUMNISTS/111039957?p=2&tc=pg)
http://www.encognitive.com/node/4745 (http://www.encognitive.com/node/4745)
http://hiwaay.net/~eueda/progesterone/facts.htm#fact2 (http://hiwaay.net/~eueda/progesterone/facts.htm#fact2)
I have read a great deal more, but I am limited with posting links because I only access the web through my phone. Honestly, I think that you should really do some research on your own before you go attacking my ideas and post without putting forth one piece of evidence to support your belief that lack of progesterone can't cause any of the above listed symptoms
Huggs
Emily
Ummm I had almost all of these symptoms before anything, and right now I am on Spiro only and still have them ::)
I am not saying that low progesterone is the only cause of these symptoms, but if you do start estrogen and they get worse it might still be a factor.
High levels of unopposed estrogen can cause dangerous levels of glutamate in the brain which has been known about for over 50 years. It is called excitotoxicity. Will this cause MS or dementia? There isn't an answer yet, but I sure don't want to wait for the evidence to roll in and be one of the unfortunate sufferers
Huggs
Emily
Hello.
All those who have responded with negativity to Emily's post. I would like to know why you are wasting your time here. If you disagree that's fine. But if she posting links and all you have is stupid snake oil comments do you know what you look like? This is very serious business where talking about here girls. Progesterone and estrogen are a balance. When your testies were working the produced both T and P. Well for those who have been on HRT for a few months. Have you noticed there smaller and mushy? And when you orgasm just a little clear fluid comes out. Guess what. There not producing T and P like they used too. What do you think that does to the chemistry in your body. Load yourself up with E and spiro and maybe some finasteride. Think about it. Just how big an experts do you think your doctors are? They fight every few years over this stuff for the SOC (that's Standards of care for those who are new). I would also suggest you take a more active role in your own care because if you don't why should they. If you think about it we transsexuals have not really been treated with hormones for very many years. Only now is our treatment beginning to be taken seriously by a medical community that is untrained and where HRT is not very uniform. One doc will treat you one way. And yet another will treat you another. Get in the game ladies. And stop these childish comments unless you know what your taking about.
Isabella
The doctor who administers my HRT has been doing so for other patients for many, many years. Apart from dealing with trans people (guys and girls) she also specialises in HRT for menopausal women, so she is very educated on the pros and cons of various different treatments.. She is also a post-op trans woman herself.. Her opinion, which nicely matches my own research and prior studies, is that for MTF's progesterone is a waste of her time and the patients money.. She used to prescribe it, both as a regular daily dosage and as cyclical dosage, her patients mainly reported it made them moody and irritable.. And for those thinking it causes breast growth, stop reading trans sites and go read some real scientific data..
Oh, and progesterone is one of the products of the adrenal glands.. not the testes.. Where some of you get your info from simply amazes me..
I went the estro and progesterone ruote but when I grew a bloom of thick black body hair I did get lots of the symptoms listed.
not enough is known about hormones but personally I'd recommend sticking to E and S only over a second puberty lasting a couple of years or more.
Kelly-aus, yes progesterone is produced by the adrenal glands, but if you do a little reading of your own you will see that it is made by the testis as well. You can't get testosterone if you don't first convert cholesterol to progesterone. You can disagree with me all you want it doesn't make it any less true that estrogen unopposed can lead to high levels of glutamate in the brain and glutamate kills brain cells.
I'm listing a site that is real simple because some people can't understand the more complicated sites, but it doesn't make the information any less true. Kelly you real must have done a great deal of research if you missed the fact that progesterone is mostly produce by the testis in normal men. I suggest you do more reading yourself before you attack my post
http://www.ehow.com/facts_5275816_progesterone-levels-men.html (http://www.ehow.com/facts_5275816_progesterone-levels-men.html)
Lilacwoman- you choose not to take something because it makes your hair grow! How vain.
My HRT doctor who is an OB/GYN uses progesterone with some of her patients trans and non trans a
like. My psychiatrist is a transwoman and she recommended it for me and said that she would prescribe it if my hrt doctor didn't.
Doctors can have varying opinions on it and I have no problem with that. But don't put me into a box because I am trans and say that this hormone has no use in my body when I can go to a simple site such as wikipedia and read about all its various functions in the body.
HRT is not a one size fits all operation and people who try to stick simplistic solutions on others are causing harm.
Huggs
Emily
I was prescribed progesterone for a while... and in all that time I barely noticed a thing. Not the resolution of the symptoms you listed that I had, nor any of the possible positive effects that they are said to have. All that I noticed was that my mood tended to have fewer upswings.
I was a bit disappointed. It looks like I'm going to be breastless for a long while - and by breastless, I mean I have no business wearing any kind of bra, because I don't need support. Not that I could fit into any bras made... However, I use 32As to give the illusion of breasts in the meantime. Sometimes it's depressing, but I have to keep my hopes up - someday, I'll have as much boob as I want.
Kelly J.P. I'm sorry it didn't help you. I wear a 34A myself when in reality I am only a double A. I too am waiting for the day when I can have as much size as I want and sometimes it can be a really long wait.
Huggs
Emily
There was some discussion that the websites I linked to above are no more then snake oil. These are responsible Doctors some of whom are in regular practice. Dr Ray Peat. Has a PhD in Biology specializing in Physiology. He did his disertation on progesterone and related hormones in 1972. The other Doctors are equaly qualified to have valid opinions on this topic. Some of them like Dr Lee dedicated much of their life to the study and treatment of hormonal disorders in women. As a woman I would like to thank them for their efforts
Huggs
Emily
It seems that the problem is the adrenal gland and the levels of cortisol (hormone increased in response to stress), Please note that the elevated levels of estrogen are but a marker of the dysfunction and not the etiological agent per se.
Med Hypotheses. 2004;62(4):575-81.
Cortisol abnormality as a cause of elevated estrogen and immune destabilization: insights for human medicine from a veterinary perspective.
Plechner AJ.
Source
California Animals Hospital, 1736 S Sepulveda Boulevard, Suite C, Los Angeles, CA 90025, USA. info@drplechner.com
Abstract
For more than 35 years the author has treated multiple serious diseases in cats and dogs by correcting an unrecognized endocrine-immune imbalance originating with a deficiency or defect of cortisol. The cortisol abnormality creates a domino effect on feedback loops involving the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis. In this scenario, estrogen becomes elevated, thyroid hormone becomes bound, and B and T cells become deregulated. Diseases with this aberration as a primary etiological component range from allergies to severe cases of autoimmunity to cancer. The author has consistently identified excess estrogen or "estrogen dominance" as part of an endocrine-immune derangement present in many common diseases of dogs and cats. Ninety-percent of these cases involve spayed females and neutered or intact males, so the elevated estrogen cannot be attributed to ovarian activity. The author identifies the adrenal cortex as a source of the imbalance, which produces a variety of vital hormones. The author has developed an endocrine-immune blood test that measures cortisol, total estrogen, T3 and T4, and IgA, IgG, and IgM antibody levels. The protocol for corrective therapy involves the use of various cortisone medications, either standard pharmaceutical compounds or a natural bio-identical preparation made from an ultra extract of soy. The author's clinical success and the growing clinical applications of low-dosage cortisone therapy for humans strongly argue for sustained research into the nature, magnitude, and impact of cortisol defects, including an associated estrogen-immune problem, in the etiology of disease
Quote from: Jen61 on December 02, 2011, 08:25:59 PM
It seems that the problem is the adrenal gland and the levels of cortisol (hormone increased in response to stress), Please note that the elevated levels of estrogen are but a marker of the dysfunction and not the etiological agent per se.
Med Hypotheses. 2004;62(4):575-81.
Cortisol abnormality as a cause of elevated estrogen and immune destabilization: insights for human medicine from a veterinary perspective.
Plechner AJ.
Source
California Animals Hospital, 1736 S Sepulveda Boulevard, Suite C, Los Angeles, CA 90025, USA. info@drplechner.com
Abstract
For more than 35 years the author has treated multiple serious diseases in cats and dogs by correcting an unrecognized endocrine-immune imbalance originating with a deficiency or defect of cortisol. The cortisol abnormality creates a domino effect on feedback loops involving the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis. In this scenario, estrogen becomes elevated, thyroid hormone becomes bound, and B and T cells become deregulated. Diseases with this aberration as a primary etiological component range from allergies to severe cases of autoimmunity to cancer. The author has consistently identified excess estrogen or "estrogen dominance" as part of an endocrine-immune derangement present in many common diseases of dogs and cats. Ninety-percent of these cases involve spayed females and neutered or intact males, so the elevated estrogen cannot be attributed to ovarian activity. The author identifies the adrenal cortex as a source of the imbalance, which produces a variety of vital hormones. The author has developed an endocrine-immune blood test that measures cortisol, total estrogen, T3 and T4, and IgA, IgG, and IgM antibody levels. The protocol for corrective therapy involves the use of various cortisone medications, either standard pharmaceutical compounds or a natural bio-identical preparation made from an ultra extract of soy. The author's clinical success and the growing clinical applications of low-dosage cortisone therapy for humans strongly argue for sustained research into the nature, magnitude, and impact of cortisol defects, including an associated estrogen-immune problem, in the etiology of disease
Ok so I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you equating the blood chemistry of our 4 legged friend to the problem that Emily is talking about? Is that right?
Isabella
Quote from: Isabella_Anne on December 02, 2011, 08:47:18 PM
Ok so I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you equating the blood chemistry of our 4 legged friend to the problem that Emily is talking about? Is that right?
Isabella
No Honey Bunny, what I did was to look in the medical database (NCBI/PubMed) for papers containing the terms: estrogene and dominance. The best I can come up, related to this thread, was posted. Read it and make your mind, do not argue with me, I am just presenting you with a medical publication.
I learn longtime ago the futility of trying to educate the GID community, they belive what they want to belive, not worth my energies.
It would seem that Emily is correct, progesterone is produced by the testes.. My bad.. Mind you it has been nearly 20 years since I studied endocrinology..
This, however, doesn't change my stance that progesterone doesn't actually provide much benefit for the greater majority of MTF trans people..
[quote author=Emily Ray
Lilacwoman- you choose not to take something because it makes your hair grow! How vain.
I still say its stupidty to say I'm vain for not wanting to have thick black hairs on my hands and arms from taking progesterone
I would rather shave and get a good nights sleep, be able to think clearly and not suffer anxiety filled depression that would have to be treated with far more dangerous drugs and occasional hospitalizations. I don't think that is stupidity.
Huggs
Emily
Quote from: Emily Ray on December 03, 2011, 08:30:22 PM
I would rather shave and get a good nights sleep, be able to think clearly and not suffer anxiety filled depression that would have to be treated with far more dangerous drugs and occasional hospitalizations. I don't think that is stupidity.
Huggs
Emily
And yet there are those of us who don't take progesterone and function perfectly normally.. I wonder why that could be?
Kelly- that question is beyond my knowledge. If you don't have the issue be thankful, it doesn't mean that it is the same for everyone. I suffer from debilitating problems from my HRT, but I can't stop taking the estrogen or other problems will form. What do you suggest that I do since you want to be my doctor now?
I went to a blog by Dr Alan Jacobs a neuroendocrinologist and after posting a comment. He emailed me and agreed that with my symptoms I might benefit from natural progesterone. Read his blog and decide for yourself.
http://blog.alanjacobsmd.com/alan-jacobs-mds-blog/2010/03/the-yin-and-yang-relationship-of-estrogen-and-progesterone-in-the-brain.html#comments (http://blog.alanjacobsmd.com/alan-jacobs-mds-blog/2010/03/the-yin-and-yang-relationship-of-estrogen-and-progesterone-in-the-brain.html#comments)
Huggs
Emily
I'm going to bow out of this thread now.. You seem to think that progesterone will be the magic solution to your issues, based on something that, from what I've been able to find, is a theory mostly based on anecdotal evidence.. If it works for you, fine.. But don't spout it as some kind of gospel.. Frankly, I'd be speaking with your endo about alternatives.. alternative forms of E, alternate delivery methods.. even a different AA..
Kelly in the last 22 months I have had 4 endocrinologist and others acting as consultants. On Tuesday I will be seeing a new doctor who has been treating transgender patients for 15 years. It is known fact that estrogen and progesterone have impacts on mood and other biological processes. These are not theory alone. If you want to wait for evidence based practices go ahead. My quality of life is in the toilet and I need help. Judging by the number of readers of this post others are suffering as well. It is you Kelly who have offered no solutions to a very real problem. And as to it being the particular form of estrogen I take, I have used generic conjugated estrogen, estradiol patches, premarin, oral estradiol, and next week I will be starting estradiol cypionate IM. I will soon be on Prometrium and I do hope it works. I am not selling this as Gospel, but as a posibility that all of my previous Doctors refused to recognize while offering no solutions
Huggs
Emily
Quote from: Kelly J. Psomeday, I'll have as much boob as I want.
/quote]
My local department store has lots of pretty bras with gel inserts that will give a full cup or more improvement and at reasonable cost.
I resorted to one when the progesterone flattened my boobs and while I was saving for the implants. l left it in the bin in the room I had in the clinic.
progesterone is a mixed bag for me... I eventually decided against it.
when you add another hormone to the mix you have to observe carefully for all side effects.
Some side effects from when I took progesterone.
Positive effects:
Corrects problems with estrogen somtimes. including
Hyper-prolatcima
Microthrombi (That scary cramping in the back of my calfI somtimes got tampering around with my E level)
Minor negative:
Oilier skin and hair.
Some hair falling out (Mild)
increased sex drive.
Dry eyes.
Water retention (Swelling)
increased appitite.
Major:
Gum disease even when I was extremely careful to brush 3 times a day I couldn't stop it getting worse.
It's only for that last reason I decided against regularly taking it.
Pebbles, thank you for your comments, I would like to point out that we are all so different when it comes to this stuff. I personally would welcome oilier skin. Last winter my leg became a bloody mess because of an uncontrolable dry skin. Increased sex drive, and increased appitite also would be helpful.
We are all individuals and we will have an individual reaction to our medications. Just because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it is wrong for another. Doctors who only treat a diagnosis and not the patient in front of them are also wrong. To insist that progesterone has no function or use in the body of the TS woman goes against known facts and understanding of the role the hormone plays in the GG's body. It also lacks compassion that is so important in a healing profession.
Huggs
Emily
Quote from: Emily Ray on December 04, 2011, 08:37:46 AMWe are all individuals and we will have an individual reaction to our medications. Just because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it is wrong for another. Doctors who only treat a diagnosis and not the patient in front of them are also wrong. To insist that progesterone has no function or use in the body of the TS woman goes against known facts and understanding of the role the hormone plays in the GG's body. It also lacks compassion that is so important in a healing profession.
Oh I agree I'm certainly not of the school of thought that belives it dose nothing... but for some it might cause more problems than it solves others will get good results. as long as these facts are understood when taking such medication they know what to look out for if things go awry.
Allergies
Decreased sex drive- This is a symptom? I'm actually happy about it. :P
Fat gain especially around the abdomen, hips and thighs- Naturally, because women get weight gain there too.
Fatigue- well yea! the fact that I'm still trying to do my job, lifting metal bars and a huge-ass impact gun daily while my upper body strength drops away, its enough to wear anyone out!
Foggy thinking- no more than before.
Memmory loss- Gotten a little worse actually.
I get muscle cramping in my calves a lot more too.
Isabella estrogen has been used for about 60 years on male bodies so it is well researched.
Quote from: Emily Ray on December 03, 2011, 08:57:39 PM
I went to a blog by Dr Alan Jacobs a neuroendocrinologist and after posting a comment. He emailed me and agreed that with my symptoms I might benefit from natural progesterone. Read his blog and decide for yourself.
http://blog.alanjacobsmd.com/alan-jacobs-mds-blog/2010/03/the-yin-and-yang-relationship-of-estrogen-and-progesterone-in-the-brain.html#comments (http://blog.alanjacobsmd.com/alan-jacobs-mds-blog/2010/03/the-yin-and-yang-relationship-of-estrogen-and-progesterone-in-the-brain.html#comments)
Huggs
Emily
He did not respond to you post !
Jen, Do you read english or is it your second language? I said he emailed me his response. Do you want my email password so you can verify that I am not lying?
Huggs
Emily
Quote from: Jen61 on December 04, 2011, 01:01:51 PM
He did not respond to you post !
Emily did say that she received an e-mail, not that she received a response in the blog comments.
Case closed. Let's move on.
P.S. If you take issue with someone's comment and are feeling testy about it, please report it instead of responding in the thread.
Did Dr Jacobs actually write 'might benefit from progesterone' or 'would benefit'? We all say you might benefit but you might not and then what?
He said it makes sense to target the anxiety symptoms and insomnia with progesterone and that it is certainly worth trying. I don't think any responsible Doctor is going to use the word "would" when dealing with something such as medicine.
Huggs
Emily
I don't think that you have been saying anything like I might benefit from progesterone. It has sounded like to me that you don't feel that progesterone has any role in the body of a transsexual woman, my sources have been criticized as snake oil! One person posted an article from veterinary medicine about cats and dogs. So if I seem a bit short in some of my responses there is a reason. I know that progesterone has a great deal of controversy surounding it regarding its effects in breast development, but that wasn't what this post was about. I suffer very real symptoms from my HRT and by the number of times this post has been read I am not alone in this. If my wanting to help others who are suffering in silence makes me a bad person in your eyes than that is just the way it has to be.
Huggs
Emily
Quote from: Emily Ray on December 04, 2011, 03:26:16 PM
Jen, Do you read english or is it your second language? I said he emailed me his response. Do you want my email password so you can verify that I am not lying?
Huggs
Emily
Actually English is my 5th language :laugh:
I take your word for it. Bye-bye !
Well you write it very well Jen!
Huggs
Emily