Is it because there are other areas you need to work on like voice, body, etc? Or have you always passed since FFS?
That's an interesting and realistic question.
I've watched a TV documentary about FFS a couple of years ago and while the (dr O) results were technically good you could read the patients as MTF in a blink.
They were filmed completely healed after FFS....one moving like a quarterback, swaying her shoulders, one wearing a sleeveless mini dress in public perfectly putting on display her masculine shoulders, arms and figure, one who's voice was very deep....
FFS isn't a panacea. It's just a tool used on only one thing: the face.
I really wondered what those MTF's thought of themselves while watching themselves in motion on film, wearing the totally wrong clothes exposing their male fysique and moving like a quarterback?
I was really wondering too......what's the use of having this expensive, extensive, invasive major surgery......when even a blind person can read them from a miles distance because of the rest of their overall appearance?
Did they really expect to pass after FFS?
The documentary was strictly about FFS itself, not passing.
i dont think many ffs people will admit this question since they spent tens of thousands of dollars on the procedure.
However, as Dahlia stated, i have seen mtf who were "clockable" after ffs. One of them was a friend of mine i met on another website. I knew her before ffs and after. Honestly, she looked almost the same in my opinion and she spent 25,000 with Dr. Spiegal.
Also, as I said earlier on this site, your face could look perfect but if you opened your mouth and start talking, all that money and surgery will not help you as people will know.
Quote from: Annah on December 23, 2011, 12:30:03 PMHonestly, she looked almost the same in my opinion and she spent 25,000 with Dr. Spiegal.
Yup. That's why I didn't choose Spiegel.
I passed before FFS, so I guess I can't really help.
But they are right. It changes your face. That's it. If you have issues with your body shape, voice, or movement, it isn't going to make that much difference.
On the other hand... I pass in men's tops. with short andro hair, no makeup, and I'm 6' tall. I'm not sure whether that would have been possible for me without FFS.
And I went to Spiegel. He is good at small adjustments, which is what I got.
On the subject of clocking/passing:
Those who know do not speak;
Those who speak do not know.
- Tao Te Ching, Chapter 56
Quote from: JenJen2011 on December 23, 2011, 01:00:11 PM
Yup. That's why I didn't choose Spiegel.
Look at that girl who chose him on youtube...she looked so plastic and her voice didn't change. Compare to that FWC who has had no surgery, just knew how to use makeup and has a perfect voice.
Physical appearance accounts for a lot... But only so much.
My friend went to dr O a few years back and while someone could put two and two together and come up with the fact she is trans, she never would have passed before. She had extensive work done to her brows, Jaw, chin and nose with her hairline pulled forward and a trach shave. It was a lot of money but I think she got every penny spent back in confidence and overall happines with her body.
Huggs
Emily
The most incredible transformations I had seen from Dr. O was Meghan (a staff here). She's absolutely gorgeous both inside and out. I would date her in a heartbeat lol.
The second most incredible transformation I had seen was from Dr. Suporn's clinic with Chloe Prince.
I think getting clocked is all about the way one is presenting herself.
No one needs to be pretty, one has only to be woman.
And I mean to BE a woman not pretending to be a woman.
When you are feeling a woman and act like a woman there will be no such thing as being clocked.
There are plenty of cis woman who aren't pretty or so very feminine, are they clocked?, no!
That's what I mean, be authentique, be yourself and you will be fine.
For the record, I am never clocked and I didn't had any ffs, I am not super pretty, just one of the other girls.
Quote from: annette on December 24, 2011, 06:37:24 AM
I think getting clocked is all about the way one is presenting herself.
No one needs to be pretty, one has only to be woman.
And I mean to BE a woman not pretending to be a woman.
When you are feeling a woman and act like a woman there will be no such thing as being clocked.
There are plenty of cis woman who aren't pretty or so very feminine, are they clocked?, no!
That's what I mean, be authentique, be yourself and you will be fine.
For the record, I am never clocked and I didn't had any ffs, I am not super pretty, just one of the other girls.
I don't know. I know some girls who get clocked and they know through and through they are a woman and they are very confidant and presents themselves very well.
I've been clocked a few times this year and I'm pretty convinced I am a female. Working in the mall will do that to you.
Quote from: annette on December 24, 2011, 06:37:24 AM
I think getting clocked is all about the way one is presenting herself.
No one needs to be pretty, one has only to be woman.
And I mean to BE a woman not pretending to be a woman.
But y'see from another perspective...Many parts of society sees us(?) as men pretendin to be women.
Hence why it's recommended people start hormones early, get ffs, etc....
Thinking FFS alone will make you passable, if you weren't before, is unrealistic. Just as is believing one surgeon makes you passable while another doesn't. One's chances of passing after FFS begins with one's canvas. After that you will still need a passable voice if you intend to speak. You will need to rid yourself of male mannerisms. You will need to know HOW to speak, HOW to act and HOW to dress.
Your bone structure will play a part in your passibility. If you're built like an NFL lineman, you will have a much tougher time passing than if you are built like a "90 pound weakling". But I have seen very large women have no problem being seen as women just by speaking. Look at it like a math equation, F-M=? If there are more M's, you won't pass. And some M's have more weight than others.
I can get clocked any time I want. I could look my absolute best and get clocked by someone staring at the floor simply by using my old voice. And there isn't a GG in this world who wouldn't get a shocked look if they spoke with my male voice. I imagine their dating life would end immediately too, at least with straight guys.
So yes, there is more to passing than having surgeries. How much more depends on where you are before you begin your transition.
Honestly, I've never liked most of Dr. S's work and I feel like many of his patients either look the same, look plastic, look odd, or look even more masculine than before. I prefer Dr. O's (when he's not off leaving people's jaws dislocated) and Dr. Mayer's, who is my favorite FFS surgeon so far by far. Really, FFS is a serious change, a doctor has to spend time studying the aesthetic of the patient's face, and then the anatomy, to make sure it can change. You can't just go in and do whatever. Even on a very masculine face, you have to do the perfect changes in order to get that person to resemble a woman, and it's never textbook.
Like on my own morphs, I worked on them forever, and even millimeters of various changes made the difference from "haggard man" and "I could at least look like a woman if I tried hard/I look a feminine, young looking boy.", which would change my entire life, my entire career, and my entire inner self. My morphs didn't follow exact FFS rules, and if a surgeon did the typical ski slope forhead and nose on me, or didn't do enough, I'd look so horrible it's unreal. The surgeries have to be specific and natural, they really do. The goal shouldn't always be to shave away and make someone look plastic, or to be so conservative it's unreal. The surgeons have to do what is seriously specific to the person's face and should think less about typical rules learned in textbooks, though they are a start for the surgeons out there who are clueless to what girls and guys really look like (many have no clue.)
Like, I believe in the method of small perfections. I believe in doing small touches to literally whatever you need until it looks perfect. For some people, one surgery changes everything. Others need small changes all over, maybe a little Juviderm for a stubborn butt-chin, maybe a little bump taken off the nose, maybe a little change in the forehead contour, maybe a little skin treatment. Some folks just require hormones and that it. I believe in finding a perfect harmony in the face, and that doesn't mean perfect model features, that means finding the perfect harmony that aligns and represents your personality. Even in the world of womanhood, a Transperson who is a slutty stripper doesn't want a look that comes together and paints them as a mature, aged, haggard person. A mature, intelligent Transperson doesn't want features that make her look plastic or too fake. A very collected, perfectionist person doesn't want features that make them look like a cage wrestler. Even beyond what a doctor may label as symmetry, the features have to represent who you are, past gender, and that's what's so tough with surgery.
*However, in today's time, 99% of the people out there prefer symmetry over unorthodox features so as long as the doctor has some sense about him, symmetry should satisfy most folks anyway.
I knew this one woman who was tall and very readable, but she had an AMAZING voice. When she would sit down and start to talk, I would almost immediately forget she was trans. Any physical issues she had seemed to disappear. Voice is very, very powerful and money spent on voice therapy might be much more effective than FFS.
I've sometimes thought of FFS for myself, but I am constantly assured, by words and in the reaction of people around me, that I don't need it. I work in front of the public every day and don't seem to be ever read. I played softball on a lesbian team in shorts, t-shirt, spikes and a baseball cap (very butch) and nobody on that team read me either. I came out to a couple of them after the season and their jaws hit the ground. I posted on FB the other day about how depressed I was about my looks and saying "how can people buy me as a girl" even though I can still see a bit of him in there. One of the softball ladies basically said she bought me as female with my softball clothes and added that "even butch you are femme."
I think my desire for FFS is partly to "lose" myself in a way. So that I can erase the bits of him that I see that nobody else save for some family and a maybe a few close friends see. It is also vanity. I want to be prettier and I think many women desire that. Cosmetic surgery is a booming business among women for a reason. I'm a 38D in bra size too and I still wonder if breast enhancement might help. I don't want them bigger, just fuller and rounder and with more cleavage. My friends and girl friend think I'm crazy. I think we need to recognize that the need and want for FFS goes simply beyond the desire to pass. I want to be beautiful and desired.
Anyhow, just my two-cents. FYI, JenJen, if that is you in your avatar, you are beautiful. I wouldn't change a thing on your face.
I agree with Annette in that it is all about how your project yourself. Having say that I think that if you can afford it, why not go for, it will help.
I would not let the advertised pictures fool you. I saw this pictures of this woman, she looks pretty, but then I saw her in youtube in her frumpy skirt and from the back she looked like a bear in a dress. She could use a body contouring
I am toast, I will not have any monies to do anything, except an orchi, for the next six years, so I will have to make do with just my charm.
Jen61
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 24, 2011, 03:21:04 PM
But y'see from another perspective...Many parts of society sees us(?) as men pretendin to be women.
Hence why it's recommended people start hormones early, get ffs, etc....
It's absolutely not a bad thing to have good looks and someone with manly looks can have a good deal with ffs.
But looks are not the only thing, I mean you can have the looks of an angel and talk or walk like a lorrydriver, than many parts of society will see you as a man pretending to be a woman.
It's like the duck theory, when it sounds likes a duck, it walk likes a duck, it flies like a duck, it must be a duck.
Feel yourself a girl as you were born a girl, when one feels that way, the whole behaviour is that way, I mean, the walk, the move, the voice but also the language/words that are used, believe me, no one will ever see you other than woman, because, they see only woman.
Don't play a role, we did that for long enough by now, just BE a woman and you ARE a woman.
It will certainly help
Quote from: annette on December 24, 2011, 06:11:41 PM
It's absolutely not a bad thing to have good looks and someone with manly looks can have a good deal with ffs.
But looks are not the only thing, I mean you can have the looks of an angel and talk or walk like a lorrydriver, than many parts of society will see you as a man pretending to be a woman.
It's like the duck theory, when it sounds likes a duck, it walk likes a duck, it flies like a duck, it must be a duck.
Feel yourself a girl as you were born a girl, when one feels that way, the whole behaviour is that way, I mean, the walk, the move, the voice but also the language/words that are used, believe me, no one will ever see you other than woman, because, they see only woman.
Don't play a role, we did that for long enough by now, just BE a woman and you ARE a woman.
It will certainly help
i guess to apply your message, people would have to have their compass point in the right direction, and there seems the problem. How do you get a sense of direction beyond the visceral needed of the daily experience ?
.
He did an amazing job. Congrats! But you had a very feminine face to begin with. Like Sarah said, he's good with making minor adjustments.
Your photos are fantastic Elle. I wish I had started transitioning a bit sooner in life.
Quote from: MADI! on December 26, 2011, 02:11:56 PM
Your photos are fantastic Elle. I wish I had started transitioning a bit sooner in life.
I agree. Now I'm depressed. lol. You are a stunning girl Elle.
Quote from: Melody Maia on December 26, 2011, 09:49:30 PM
I agree. Now I'm depressed. lol. You are a stunning girl Elle.
Why? Just because someone is phenomenally beautiful doesn't mean you should be depressed. You got pretty lucky yourself.
Everything happens for a reason and some of us were meant to transition sooner than others. Self accept the life you have and make it great.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 26, 2011, 10:03:44 PM
Why? Just because someone is phenomenally beautiful doesn't mean you should be depressed. You got pretty lucky yourself.
Everything happens for a reason and some of us were meant to transition sooner than others. Self accept the life you have and make it great.
Oh I self-accept. I know I have been luckier than the great majority of transwomen who started at my age and I also realize beauty is fleeting. I am grateful for what I have and that I have the financial ability to have surgery where others want it and can't have it. However, I have never ascribed to the "things happen for a reason" view of life. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 26, 2011, 10:03:44 PM
some of us were meant to transition sooner than others. Self accept the life you have and make it great.
Most of the time we disagree, but this time I do absolutely agree with you.
you look stunning.
Quote from: elle2011 on December 26, 2011, 05:20:01 AM
I have to come to the defend of Dr Spiegel, as I had FFS with him five months ago, literally I am still swollen in areas, and I know I haven't seen the full result. I'll tell you what I had: Brow bone reduction, brow lift, hairline adjustment, and jaw and chin recontouring.
This is me and my boyfriend three months after FFS I believe in the EuroStar going from Paris to London
On my way to the Marchesa fashion show during this year's New York fashion week
And most recently with a change of hair color visiting a friend in Miami
I will say this, I've seen many FFS patients, specially now here in Thailand who simply because they have FFS it doesn't mean they pass. Their bodies are shaped like an upside triangle, and their voices are rougher.. these usually are the older patients. I am 22. And I am fairly lucky, at 5'3 and 105lbs, with breast augmentation, ffs, and now srs recovering in Thailand. I think passing is a full package kind of deal. And for the love of god, dress to flatter your bodies girl, why the hell would you wear a tube top or tube dress as opposed to a full skirt that will instantly open up your hips, with a beautiful blouse?
Before FFS, and I believe at the beginning of HRT
Body before it all, me kissing my friend
At 17
Quote from: MADI! on December 26, 2011, 02:11:56 PM
Your photos are fantastic Elle. I wish I had started transitioning a bit sooner in life.
I wish I had know of FFS and transitioning at a very early age.
Elle, you are stunningly beautiful
I am always amazed when a nice face is made stunning with make-up. If only I could apply it right :-(
I think it's strange that just on another thread, all sorts of people insult me for simply wanting a revision rhinoplasty to repair a nose that is still ultra-masculine (Tom Hanks nose), when Elle had an absolutely stunningly feminine face pre-surgery that I would die to be born with, and she then had surgery to basically look like a supermodel, and successfully got it, with a dozen members being all like "OhEmGee why didn't I do this when I was young?".... I just don't get it. People always tell me to put up with what life gave me, but when this member didn't put up with being anything less than a supermodel in terms of appearance, I don't see why I have to put up with looking like haggard impassable Tom Hanks - especially since I'm younger than Elle! I just don't see why absolutely no one on this forum just can't say "Hey, yeah, you need some surgery, definatly go for it!" for once. It's actually really important to me to hear at least ONE person say it, can't help it.
Quote from: R&T-Place on January 07, 2012, 07:11:49 AM
It's actually really important to me to hear at least ONE person say it, can't help it.
Have you had a consult with an FFS surgeon yet? Personally I value the opinion of a specialist over that of a friend or family member. You could argue the surgeon has a vested interest to over-sell to you, but in terms of the specifics on any procedure they'll be able to give you the best advice on what is best for you.
I do agree that it's a little odd that our community generally advises against FFS. I think it's partly due to politeness as it's not particularly helpful to tell someone they definitely need a difficult and expensive operation. On a more positive note, I think it is good that we don't encourage each other to become plastic barbie dolls!
I'm having FFS in April and I accept that most people won't fully support my decision on this one. I've had plenty of time to seriously think it over and I feel informed on the matter, so that's good enough for me. It's my life :)
Quote from: R&T-Place on January 07, 2012, 07:11:49 AM
I think it's strange that just on another thread, all sorts of people insult me for simply wanting a revision rhinoplasty to repair a nose that is still ultra-masculine (Tom Hanks nose), when Elle had an absolutely stunningly feminine face pre-surgery that I would die to be born with, and she then had surgery to basically look like a supermodel, and successfully got it, with a dozen members being all like "OhEmGee why didn't I do this when I was young?".... I just don't get it. People always tell me to put up with what life gave me, but when this member didn't put up with being anything less than a supermodel in terms of appearance, I don't see why I have to put up with looking like haggard impassable Tom Hanks - especially since I'm younger than Elle! I just don't see why absolutely no one on this forum just can't say "Hey, yeah, you need some surgery, definatly go for it!" for once. It's actually really important to me to hear at least ONE person say it, can't help it.
there is a difference between those getting ffs under a normal self esteem who wants to look more female and those who look up to someone who has had 55 plastic surgeries as a hero and role model.
Im usually terrified of red lipstick but I played with it a bit today while laying in bed resting from srs.
Quote from: R&T-Place on January 07, 2012, 07:11:49 AM
I think it's strange that just on another thread, all sorts of people insult me for simply wanting a revision rhinoplasty to repair a nose that is still ultra-masculine (Tom Hanks nose), when Elle had an absolutely stunningly feminine face pre-surgery that I would die to be born with, and she then had surgery to basically look like a supermodel, and successfully got it, with a dozen members being all like "OhEmGee why didn't I do this when I was young?".... I just don't get it. People always tell me to put up with what life gave me, but when this member didn't put up with being anything less than a supermodel in terms of appearance, I don't see why I have to put up with looking like haggard impassable Tom Hanks - especially since I'm younger than Elle! I just don't see why absolutely no one on this forum just can't say "Hey, yeah, you need some surgery, definatly go for it!" for once. It's actually really important to me to hear at least ONE person say it, can't help it.
Go for it. :) But I would also like to add that people's opinions on a forum shouldn't determine whether you have surgery or not. Do it for yourself, no one else. I have had surgery to correct some features of myself I didn't like, if I had more money to play around with, I would definitely have more done. I'm doing it for myself. I think I have realistic expectations though.
@elle2001, you are very beautiful. :)
Quote from: Laura26 on January 07, 2012, 10:22:46 AM
I do agree that it's a little odd that our community generally advises against FFS. I think it's partly due to politeness as it's not particularly helpful to tell someone they definitely need a difficult and expensive operation.
I think it's because most people don't have 20-30k or more to throw around, if they do they're either rich or that's their entire life savings lol. My grandparents are paying for both my FFS & SRS surgery so I guess i'm one of the lucky ones. I know that i'd never in a million years be able to pay for surgery on my salary alone (I work at starbucks as a coffee whore lol!) so having a wealthy family helps bigtime.
I think it's still very possible to get clocked even after FFS, voice is probably the most important thing for passing successfully. You can be an ugly woman and still pass because of your sweet feminine voice but if you sound like a construction worker it doesn't matter how pretty you are cuz as soon as you open your mouth and speak your clocked instantly.
Quote from: MacKenzie on January 11, 2012, 04:50:32 PM
I think it's because most people don't have 20-30k or more to throw around, if they do they're either rich or that's their entire life savings lol. My grandparents are paying for both my FFS & SRS surgery so I guess i'm one of the lucky ones. I know that i'd never in a million years be able to pay for surgery on my salary alone (I work at starbucks as a coffee whore lol!) so having a wealthy family helps bigtime.
I think it's still very possible to get clocked even after FFS, voice is probably the most important thing for passing successfully. You can be an ugly woman and still pass because of your sweet feminine voice but if you sound like a construction worker it doesn't matter how pretty you are cuz as soon as you open your mouth and speak your clocked instantly.
Yeah, voice is very important indeed !
There's so much more to being a woman than just a feminine face! Body, voice, mannerisms.