Quote from: article
When you know someone who's undergone sex-reassignment surgery, the possibility of regret may feel like the proverbial elephant in the room. But what is the prevalence of regret, and why does regret occur?
ArticleWith all the resources available today, the HBSOC, the DSM, the therapy sessions, the hormone regimens, the real life experience, I really can't imagine how anyone could regret their SRS/transition in this day and age. ??? ??? ???
tink :icon_chick:
:: whew ::
What is THAT from?
I am older than dirt, and in all of my years, I have never, ever met a single soul, male, female, or whatever, that regretted anything they had done surgically. I think the story of the post-op person that freaks out because they had irreversable surgery is not just an anomally -- I think it is a fable, of urban myth proportions!
I think that you are more likely to find the holy grail than to actually find this one person that is sorry for what they did to change themselves.
On the other hand, if you want to find people that regret surgeries they have had, look no further than your local IS person. Of course,THOSE surgeries were chosen for them.
So, on the one hand you have no one that chose their surgery feeling the slightest twinge of regret, but on the other you have ALL of these people that are angry about the surgeries that were chosen for them. So, the next time you think the medical establishment is on your side, think again.
:: Grrrrrr ::
Yup! Grrrrr is my reaction as well. The only people who "have regretted their SRS/transition" are these (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html), but let's keep in mind that these people transitioned "ages" ago when there wasn't the kind of support system there is today.
Personally I have not heard any "recent" regrets either, and by "recent" I mean people who transitioned or had SRS "in the last decade or so"
tink :icon_chick:
Why do they keep dragging that old horse out? Stories of transsexuals who transition and later regret it seem to be so prevalent they've entered the urban legend category. Back in the 90's Kate Bornstein was on a Giraldo Rivera show about regretful transsexuals (she said she was there for 'balance', as on of the 'happy transsexuals.')
I'm certain there's the occasional regretful transitioner. but I think the true incidence is far below what is suggested by the number of times this 'issue' surfaces.
Karen
Could it be that our beloved Renee Richards is looking for fame? >:D Let's remember that she was used to it when she was a tennis player and all that scandal surfaced because of her SRS.
tink :icon_chick:
<SNARK>
Quote from: Tink on March 13, 2007, 10:38:41 PM
Could it be that our beloved Renee Richards is looking for fame? >:D
</SNARK>
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-K
Well, she does want to make some money on her book. But she has not said that she regrets transitioning has she?
I've never met anyone who has regretted transitioning either.
My recollection is that Renee Richards, in her book, said that she was "obssesed" with transitioning and that there was no way of avoiding it. I don't recall her saying that she was "happy" about transitioning but, rather, it was simply something that needed to be done.
I'm in that camp, also. As a post-op (since 1999), I would never tell anyone that I was "happy" about transitioning but rather that it was something I needed to do, like breathing. "Happy" puts too much of a cheerful slant on it and I think it may mislead some who transition into thinking that there is some nirvanna or Shangri-la at the end of being post-op.
The world is far too bigotted for me to ever be truly "happy" about my decision. I will always wonder, as Renee Richards wrote in her autobiography, why I felt compelled to do it. She, despite her knowledge of medicine, couldn't explain it and neither can I. That said, I would never go back -- that male growth was abhorrant to me. In that sense, being post-op is a success. There is NO REGRET about what I am now, anatomically. Unfortunately, I have to live in the world and I get sad when I read about other post-op TS's having difficulty. Added to that, I've faced discrimination even after being post-op. Being post-op is, unfortunately, like becoming part of a group that many in the world hate. So, even if my personal life is going along well, I feel sadness about the bigotted world. Transitioning, for me, hasn't ended that sadness. As the philosopher Dunne said, I am not an island. "Don't ask for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee." When bad sh**t happens to others, it hits me. It feels like a personal insult or assault, even though it's not directed at me.
I'm glad that others who are post-op find it to be an "urban myth" that there are unhappy post-ops. Psychology sessions in transitioning help in dealing with a bigotted world but, of course, there's no way to stop the hate. Like the AAA adage suggests, we have to ignore things we can't do anything about. For me, the operation relieved gender dysphoria but there is, unfortunately, no escaping the unhappiness that the world can shovel our way. Caveat emptor, buyer beware.
Teri Anne
Teri,
This is a powerful post. You've put into words the feelings I've had from time to time. I have no regret for doing what I had to do. I do hate what I've had to go through to do it.... and then put up with all of the little nasty stuff after the fact. There will always be discrimination in our liftime I'm afraid Teri. Perhaps the next generation will have it a bit easier.
Recently, my daughter wrote that she was sure that I "couldn't be happier" in a sarcastic way. Not only is it difficult for us to be happy but the world works against us as if to say that we have a responsibility to be miserable and guilty for the rest of our lives. I know that sounds negative but it is a heavy timber to lift from time to time.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 13, 2007, 11:49:38 PM
Well, she does want to make some money on her book. But she has not said that she regrets transitioning.
I've never met anyone who has regretted transitioning either. I
She describes herself as "merely someone who was miscast for Sex Change; a frustrated and terrible misguided ->-bleeped-<-"
Quote from: Dr. Richards"I wish that there could have been an alternative way, but there wasn't in 1975. If there was a drug that I could have taken that would have reduced the pressure, I would have been better off staying the way I was -- a totally intact person. I know deep down that I'm a second-class woman. I get a lot of inquiries from would-be transsexuals, but I don't want anyone to hold me out as an example to follow. Today there are better choices, including medication, for dealing with the compulsion to crossdress and the depression that comes from gender confusion. As far as being fulfilled as a woman, I'm not as fulfilled as I dreamed of being. I get a lot of letters from people who are considering having this operation...and I discourage them all.
I say that you'd better get on Prozac or any other medication available, or get locked up or do whatever it takes to keep you from being allowed to do something like it."
http://www.realityresources.com/reneerichards.htmI've always perceived her as someone who wasn't sure about her gender identity
If no people entering therapy and wanting SRS would not later regret it there would be no need for SOC.
Thus we have therapy dividing people into the categories that get/don't get SRS. However therapists are human and do make mistakes from time to time. Also in many cases the best interest of a TS person is not to tell everything (as that may slow things considerably down). Thus we have limited communication and therapists that are not perfect. Mistakes may happen.
Hmmm. I don't think that I can agree with this part of your POV.
QuoteThus we have therapy dividing people into the categories that get/don't get SRS. However therapists are human and do make mistakes from time to time.
I have always been of the opinion that a therapist is only there to advise you as to your options. You and I make all the decisions, so if there is a "mistake" made, than it falls on us, not the therapist. As I always say, if you don't care for what your therapist is telling you, get a second opinion. If the second opinion is the same as the first, maybe you or I need to reassess our position.
I feel like RR was simply too vested in the security of her previously male-centered world. She was a doctor, a person of means, and trained in a field that garners great respect. She went from that place, to accepting and embracing a diagnosis that deemed her mentally unbalanced, lost her practice, her social standing, and her income. So, my guess is that she is lamenting the loss of security and respect, that she would have never had if she had grown up as a woman. If you never had it, you don't miss it. Woman and men are still treated very differently in this society.
I'm sure the book deal has helped her survive, but it can't replace the self-esteem she lost when her medical career went into the dumper. Plus she had her private life dragged out into the open for everyone to review and comment on. She may as well have written the book at that point, because if she hadn't, someone would probably have dragged out all her personal info eventually anyway. Can you imagine the commotion if this would have happened during the 90's, with Geraldo, and Jerry, and all the others during sweeps month?
Thank Goddess I never watch network t.v. anymore.
I digress. Let me try to stop myself from veering off yet another thread. What I am alluding to, is that "they" are always trying to infer that someone will change their
sex and then regret it later. But, it seems that the only regret I can recall anyone lamenting has to do with a loss of social standing from switching their
gender role.
Can anyone else find a more motivating reason why
gender reassignment surgery and
gender role reversal should be treated completely separately by the therapy community?
To me, SRS and switching my gender role didn't just mean a loss of social standing. It was crueler than that. It was, as Renee Richards wrote, that she became not just a woman but a "second-class woman." I went from making $80,000 a year to now looking for minimum wage jobs (and am facing discrimination with even that goal). Most of us know of this possibility before committing to SRS but its definitely a different experience to live it. Yes, the RLT is designed to inform us of this reality but being a post-op TS can be like a rock on the shore. Eventually, the sandy waves crashing against us year after year can have a dissolving effect.
I'm glad for those who feel totally happy with their post-op lives and are able to dismiss (as they should) cultural bigotry. They say that adversity makes all people stronger. Don't count on it. I know I'm having a bad week but I don't think transitioning should be considered a panacea. Renee Richards is right -- If you can find another way out, do it. After transitioning, if you have good friends, family and a good job, anything is tolerable. If you don't, you feel those waves crashing, over and over...
For some of us, though we try to stand tall, we note that our feet are subtly becoming sand. I worry that my stress by cultural bigotry and self-inflicted self-hatred will end my life through an early heart attack or stroke. I told my ex that I was happy, in a sense, that she wasn't around to see my downfall in person and that I knew, from the beginning, the possibility that she had hitched herself to a falling star. Moving from Los Angeles to Washington state hasn't ended my unemployment. As I mentioned in another post, my former (male) name is known by the INFORMATION AGENCIES who do background checks. There are millions of these agencies so moving north hasn't given me the new life I sought. Whenever bad things happen to me, I want to crawl into a corner. I know I have enough money to live a long modest life without working (I'm 55). I find myself, from time to time, wishing for that heart attack. Unlike suicide, I wouldn't be blamed. People who know me wouldn't take on blame or guilt. I have no guts to commit suicide but do, in my sad moments, wish for closure. Anything to stop the pain.
A word of advice to pre-ops. Consider transitioning thoroughly if you have a thin skin like mine.
Teri Anne
In some countries the only option for second options is to move to an another country. Thus when looking at people wanting SRS "therapists decide" is the case.
Of course things are better in many countries, but those usually have more financial burdens associated with the process.
Teri,
Although I know you are having a very difficult time, I'm glad that you are brave enough to broach this subject. We, as a group, really hate to deal with this much less mention the possibility that it exists. I have had a very difficult time along these lines in my work history. There were a few companies I worked for that eventually were able to drive me out after finding out about my past. Since we are prone to depression in the first place, dealing with this seems overwhelming.
Your advice is sound. Consider this thoroughly before you move forward.
I can only tell you to keep trying hon. There are other companies. Not all of them will perform background checks. It is just a little too expensive and it is a pain. Look for another opportunity and another until you find your place. Or you can do what I did and start your own business. I also do volunteer work which is very satisfying.
Chin up Teri.
Cindi
Thanks, Cindi, for cheering me up. It's funny how shared circumstances can make you feel better. Your advice mirrors the advice of my best friend: do volunteer work, go to smaller companies (where they hopefully don't do background checks) and think about starting my own business.
I know some in this room will think (even if they don't post it) that I somehow slipped through the cracks and should not have been allowed the SRS operation. I assure you that, even if I were on an island by myself, there has always been something instinctual in feeling that the male appendage did not belong on me. I feel better in the shower.
I know that when I get a job that I'll feel happier. That is my nature, from my teenage years 'till now.
"Transsexual regret?" For me, even with all the pitfalls, there was no CHOICE about it. It had to be done.
Teri Anne
Thank you for your posts, Teri Anne. I can see this but so often it is easy to push aside the facts of the world-as-it-is, in an effort to relieve a lifetime of misery. Existence is suffering. Period. As several write lately, transitioning is a way to keep from that walk in the woods, for some. I keep wondering about working enough to make ends meet, get a little place in the woods, keep to myself until the elephant comes to sit on my chest. Sounds like giving up, though. There is enough fight in me to have a few more big battles, but I better pick them wisely. Maybe things can be better for my sons and daughters down the road. I keep fighting transitioning, even as I prepare for it. Happier in some ways, no doubt, more trouble and storms in other ways, no doubt. Sigh. I keep reading Chinese poetry from the 8th century.. it talks of why fight the battles.. sit.. enjoy what is now. The world will keep going, whirling around in absurd comedies. Keep your mind clear. Sage advice.. I try to follow, and yet it keeps swirling me onward. Had a dream 2 days ago that I was shot and killed by someone at work (it's a possibility), and reborn as a beautiful little girl.. the feeling of being comfortable in my own body was staggering. But in the end, I don't want to return. ok.. /ramble off
Blessings, Tara
I have about as much respect for a transsexual that regrets surgery as Reverend Ted Haggard who regrets thinking he was gay and having a five year affair with a gay prostitute and drug dealer. Poor Ted. So tricked by the system and the temptation of lucious, sinful and delicious gay sex.
Please.
Bri
Quote from: Yvonne on March 14, 2007, 01:55:05 AM
She describes herself as "merely someone who was miscast for Sex Change; a frustrated and terrible misguided ->-bleeped-<-"
that's what "she" is, a confused ->-bleeped-<- who underwent grs for the wrong reasons.
I am not sure people have regrets about SRS but I do think they can have regrets about the repercussions of their surgery. I read lots of guilt stories between married couples and the conclusion of loving relationships.
This site has shown me the stupidity of making decisions in a vacuum. I am guilty as charged. But it seems about as plausible as 300 Spartans holding off the Persian army for days as to get SRS in a vacuum. I am sure history has at least one transexual regret!
Transexuals probably lost a whole bunch of important things before SRS. Losing your job, spouse, children, friends, church, faith are all possibilities if one changes their gender. The repercussions probably take more healing than SRS.
However Tink I love the topic!
I have been ultra serious today and probably have left numerous folks in tears. All of a sudden I feel ultra silly. Do you know of any good magicians because I would need a lot more than a good surgeon?
W
Quote from: Wendy on March 14, 2007, 07:30:00 PM
However Tink I love the topic!
Originally I posted it under the
news forum, for that's how it was classified under the Advocate website, but then I noticed that it was more like an informative article than news, so I moved it here under Transgender Talk. I am glad you enjoyed it, Wendy.
tink :icon_chick:
Well,
after reading all of the posts, and feeling the pain being emanated, I feel like I should say something positive, even though I am like the last person to turn to in that regard.
My philosophy has always been, it can always be worse.
But there is this. All over the world, and thru the millenia, women have always gotten the short end of the stick. If I can't say anything inspirational, I can note the obvious.
We are all still here. We could not be here, were it not for the indominable ability for the average woman to slog thru the mire of whatever is thrown at her and to rise above it.
As long as you are able to endure, you have the chance to overcome all obstacles set before you, and all people trying to impede your way. All that you have to do is survive, to keep trying, to keep chipping away a little at a time. Eventually, even baby steps will lead you around the world. Everytime you feel like you are stuck, just remind yourself of those baby steps, because we all need to walk before we can run.
You might not be able to get ahead beating your head against a wall, but as long as you keep poking your head out there, eventually you will find a way around that damn wall -- I guarantee it.
KATIA - I hadn't heard of that quote from Renee Richards. So she called herself a "terribly misguided ->-bleeped-<-?" Geez, I must have missed that part in her book. Wow. I can see now why, if that's truly the case, why she would have so many questions after the SRS. I would have thought that a highly educated doctor would not have made such a tragic mistake.
TARA - I enjoyed your post. Yes, the world does indeed swirl around us and we need to remain calm. Budhist monks probably have the best grasp of how to turn the noise down and find peace in nature.
THUNDRA - I think I see an opening in the wall. Hmm, wow. What a pretty seashore.
Transsexual regret is, to me, kind of a waste of time and energy. What's done is done and we move onto the next place. They say that people should always ponder things ("an unexplored life is not worth living"). Sometimes, it's healthier to find other hobbies.
Teri Anne
I know transsexuals with regret, regret for what might have been, regret for their acquired personal circumstances, regret for the pain and suffering their transition did to those around them, but NONE haev regreted their transition.
Employment works; cash comes in, status provided, a reason to get up in the morning, the opportunity to meet other people, a future :) I just wish more in the trans "community" would help others through find work. I've helped 4 transsexual people find work and I've seen the difference it has made to their lives.
Ruth
Quote from: Teri Anne on March 15, 2007, 02:40:13 AM
I think I see an opening in the wall. Hmm, wow. What a pretty seashore.
Yep, that's shell beach. ;)
Melissa
Well, well,
look at what I stumbled onto at the Advocate:
http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid42890.asp
I found this quote interesting:
QuoteThis evaluation, unfortunately, favors those who can best convince "the system" of their need; thereby it occasionally disqualifies some who need the surgery while qualifying some who don't.
But even if that is so, the statistics she quotes list that somewhere around an average of 1% of those that undergo surgical intervention express later regret.
Now, is it just me, or doesn't it seem rather strange that 1% of candidates force the other 99% to march thru a veritable gauntlet, or minefield. I have to believe, that as time goes on, and the phobia against surgical intervention declines in the new generation of kids, that this process will one day be one hell of a lot easier on the participants.
I will go further out on a limb, and guess that at some point, when people in this process are viewed simply as men and women with a need for surgical correction, and not as transgendered males and transgendered females that are undergoing surgery that mutilates their body, that the process will be reversed: surgery first, transition second.
Why? Because men don't have to prove they can behave like men before they can have no breasts, and have a penis, and women don't have to prove they can behave as a woman before they can have breasts and a vagina. It is my observation, that if people had surgical correction before they transition, that it would remove 90% of the problems or other issues that arise from transitioning. Especially the bathroom thing.
Just my POV.
Also, it's possible that an inappropriate candidate may attempt to transition. If he (or she) is convinced they are transsexual and learn the right things to say to a gender therapist, a non-transsexual might slip through the screening process and obtain GRS, especially if they don't express their doubts or outright lie to their therapist.
Quote from: Yvonne on March 16, 2007, 03:33:53 AM
Also, it's possible that an inappropriate candidate may attempt to transition. If he (or she) is convinced they are transsexual and learn the right things to say to a gender therapist, a non-transsexual might slip through the screening process and obtain GRS, especially if they don't express their doubts or outright lie to their therapist.
Ya know, I've been wondering about that. My HRT letter mentions, amoungst other things,
"I see no sexual motivations for Kate's desire..."And I kept thinking,
"How does she REALLY know that?" Couldn't I just be hiding it, telling her what she needed to hear, "skirting" (lol) around the issue? I mean I've certainly learned enough from you kids to piece together a valid story.
Or would an experienced therapist pick up on that, and know something was amiss?
Or would someone with persistent erotic motivations find it difficult to hide anyway, such as showing up for therapy in lingerie carrying a whip?
(not that such things should necessarily disqualify someone - just saying it seems to be a red flag that therapists look for)
Kate
It's all in the detail Kate. If you just said to a therapist "I knew I was female since I was 4 and I had an awful childhood and was beat up and called a sissy and I was only attracted to men and then I did a bunch of things to prove I was a man and then I finally needed to transition", you have basically told a "classic" story. It's when you tell about the details of your life that it paints a much clearer picture. When I went to get my second therapy letter, I did a good job summarizing it all and was saying things like how coming to know I was female was a complex thing and how there were different phases in my life that when looked at as a whole you could tell. Another thing that can help is you just have a very female demeanor to you. Anybody can tell a therapist they are TS, but can they describe it in minute detail and come off as a completely believable woman? There's a lot to it.
Melissa
Quote from: Yvonne on March 16, 2007, 03:33:53 AM
Also, it's possible that an inappropriate candidate may attempt to transition. If he (or she) is convinced they are transsexual and learn the right things to say to a gender therapist, a non-transsexual might slip through the screening process and obtain GRS, especially if they don't express their doubts or outright lie to their therapist.
if someone is [convinced] they are transsexual, why on earth would they fabricate stories and lie to their therapists? isn't that worse than committing suicide? why would any non-transsexual [choose] to have grs? ???
Quote from: Katia on March 16, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
if someone is [convinced] they are transsexual, why on earth would they fabricate stories and lie to their therapists? isn't that worse than committing suicide? why would any non-transsexual [choose] to have grs? ???
Right, if they weren't a transsexual before and transitioned, they would certainly be a transsexual after that, but in the other direction. Why would any non-transsexual want to become one?
Melissa
There's one in Australia who's suing his doctors, even though he fudged his answers the second time round of psychiatric testing. The first time, he was rejected:
http://www.realityresources.com/alanfinch.htm (http://www.realityresources.com/alanfinch.htm)
I hope he loses.
Dennis
Quote from: Dennis on March 16, 2007, 01:31:40 PM
There's one in Australia who's suing his doctors, even though he fudged his answers the second time round of psychiatric testing. The first time, he was rejected:
http://www.realityresources.com/alanfinch.htm (http://www.realityresources.com/alanfinch.htm)
Dennis
this is a joke! people like [him] shouldn't be entitled to anything.
Quote from: dennisI hope he loses.
lol, so do i
Quote from: Dennis on March 16, 2007, 01:31:40 PM
There's one in Australia who's suing his doctors, even though he fudged his answers the second time round of psychiatric testing. The first time, he was rejected:
http://www.realityresources.com/alanfinch.htm (http://www.realityresources.com/alanfinch.htm)
I hope he loses.
Dennis
People like this make me sick. HE decides to lie and then blames everyone else just so he doesn't have to accept responsibility for his actions. In doing so, it harms all "real" transsexuals as a whole. People like this are actually on of the reasons my parents are having a hard time accepting this. They are worried I will have the same regrets, but if anything, I have been *extremely* honest with people. I'm sorry, people who regret transitioning enough to detransition should be shot. They are only a waste of oxygen.
Melissa
I wish Mr. Finch would be laughed out of the courtroom. And it sickens me that Leach and his crew are using this "arch manipulator" as an example. And where did that 10% dissatisfaction statistic come from?
And the friend who outed Mr Finch as a pathological liar is accused of suffering from, "the hellish emotional confusion which results from crossing gender lines." ???
I have a high level of suspicion of the veracity of anything that is on that site. I think Mr. Leach is an exploiter and a thief who preys on the insecurity and internalized worthlessness that trans people feel for his own gain.
helen
Quote from: Melissa on March 16, 2007, 01:44:34 PM
I'm sorry, people who regret transitioning enough to detransition should be shot. They are only a waste of oxygen.
I have to disagree with this. While being in that position would have to be a horrible mistake, people do make mistakes even with major decisions. The problem comes not when someone recognizes a mistake and detransitions, it comes when someone blames others for their mistake.
Quote from: Nikki_W on March 16, 2007, 05:18:03 PM
Quote from: Melissa on March 16, 2007, 01:44:34 PM
I'm sorry, people who regret transitioning enough to detransition should be shot. They are only a waste of oxygen.
I have to disagree with this. While being in that position would have to be a horrible mistake, people do make mistakes even with major decisions. The problem comes not when someone recognizes a mistake and detransitions, it comes when someone blames others for their mistake.
Ok, I didn't state exactly what I meant. I meant people who regret transitioning enough to detransition and then make some federal case about it to get money at the expense of all other transsexuals because they don't want to accept responsibility for their own actions. So I agree with you.
Melissa
Quote from: HelenW on March 16, 2007, 05:14:31 PM
I wish Mr. Finch would be laughed out of the courtroom. And it sickens me that Leach and his crew are using this "arch manipulator" as an example. And where did that 10% dissatisfaction statistic come from?
And the friend who outed Mr Finch as a pathological liar is accused of suffering from, "the hellish emotional confusion which results from crossing gender lines." ???
I have a high level of suspicion of the veracity of anything that is on that site. I think Mr. Leach is an exploiter and a thief who preys on the insecurity and internalized worthlessness that trans people feel for his own gain.
helen
I agree with you Helen, about being suspicious of anything on that site. I have seen Mr. Finch in other contexts though. He was featured on a Fifth Estate program about transitioning. In addition to being a liar, he is also a media whore.
Dennis
Quote from: Dennis on March 16, 2007, 07:09:38 PMIn addition to being a liar, he is also a media whore.
Maybe we need to introduce this guy to Annie Coulter? Whaddaya think? >:D
h
Quote from: Teri Anne on March 14, 2007, 12:45:31 AM
My recollection is that Renee Richards, in her book, said that she was "obssesed" with transitioning and that there was no way of avoiding it. I don't recall her saying that she was "happy" about transitioning but, rather, it was simply something that needed to be done.
I'm in that camp, also. As a post-op (since 1999), I would never tell anyone that I was "happy" about transitioning but rather that it was something I needed to do, like breathing. "Happy" puts too much of a cheerful slant on it and I think it may mislead some who transition into thinking that there is some nirvanna or Shangri-la at the end of being post-op.
The world is far too bigotted for me to ever be truly "happy" about my decision. I will always wonder, as Renee Richards wrote in her autobiography, why I felt compelled to do it. She, despite her knowledge of medicine, couldn't explain it and neither can I. That said, I would never go back -- that male growth was abhorrant to me. In that sense, being post-op is a success. There is NO REGRET about what I am now, anatomically. Unfortunately, I have to live in the world and I get sad when I read about other post-op TS's having difficulty. Added to that, I've faced discrimination even after being post-op. Being post-op is, unfortunately, like becoming part of a group that many in the world hate. So, even if my personal life is going along well, I feel sadness about the bigotted world. Transitioning, for me, hasn't ended that sadness. As the philosopher Dunne said, I am not an island. "Don't ask for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee." When bad sh**t happens to others, it hits me. It feels like a personal insult or assault, even though it's not directed at me.
I'm glad that others who are post-op find it to be an "urban myth" that there are unhappy post-ops. Psychology sessions in transitioning help in dealing with a bigotted world but, of course, there's no way to stop the hate. Like the AAA adage suggests, we have to ignore things we can't do anything about. For me, the operation relieved gender dysphoria but there is, unfortunately, no escaping the unhappiness that the world can shovel our way. Caveat emptor, buyer beware.
Teri Anne
it wa sgood reading your comments terri ann i can relae with how you feel i am about read to transition into this life gone back and forth with the hormones and i feel like its a curse i get closer every time i want to be able to go all the way with out feeling guilty nice picture by the way you look beautfull i like to go by diane valrie
I don't come to Susan's too often anymore. Rather surprisingly, I have a life post-op in every sense of the word,
family, friends, a job, a thriving life in the music world beyond my "day" job. I have no regrets, post-op, about the
surgery. I have always been a woman. The surgery just fixed a birth defect--in my mind--but, I have to lie about
my past. My spouse and I remain best friends...but in a sometimes uneasy relationship caught somewhere between
past and present. We both agree this current situation is far from perfect--I happily report our love has somehow
transcended this mess. Clients still call me "he". I cringe and dream of working elsewhere. I live an uneasy life
somewhere between stealth and out. Right now, it works...but for how long? Still, no regret. The alternative
for me was death--still is.
Dawn
Diane - Thanks for the kind words. Good luck in whatever path you choose.
DawnL - Good to "see" you again. I'm glad you have a thriving, busy, post-op life. My ex and I are still best friends. She remarried and is quite happy. Amazingly enough, last winter I flew to New York to visit both of them and stay in their guest room for a week. My ex drove me around showing me the sights of her town and New York. Her new hubby is remarkable - He treats me with respect as a friend. Obviously, if I still appeared to be a male (ie. if I was a guy), I don't think I would have been invited.
How life can turn.
Teri Anne
Quote from: Tink on March 13, 2007, 08:22:32 PMWith all the resources available today, the HBSOC, the DSM, the therapy sessions, the hormone regimens, the real life experience, I really can't imagine how anyone could regret their SRS/transition in this day and age. ??? ??? ???
tink :icon_chick:
About a year ago I was talking to a CD I know when she asked me if I intend to have SRS. I said yes. Then she said don't because a girl she was just talking to said she regretted it totally. When she told me who she was talking about I was shocked she had the surgery because in listening to her at a support meeting I felt she was nowhere near ready to have the surgery.
No matter how good the therapy or the therapist is there are people who can fool themselves and the therapist and manage to get that letter in their hands. Some people are looking to solve a problem and think this is the way to do it.
Julie
There was someone who came into the fourms a few months ago who regretted having surgery. The story sounded suspect. I thought it was a troll. But it may have been possible that she had the surgery many years ago before the standards were well established.
Cindi
:: sigh :: I know it sounds harsh, but this is why I say caveat emptor.
No matter what anyone does, if someone is hellbent on having surgery, for whatever reason, they will jump through the correct hoops to do so.
I personally feel that it is ridiculous for 1% of the patients to control the process for the other 99% that have their head in the right place. Especially since these 1% are going to do it their way no matter what.
Which is why I advocate that the surgery is between the surgeon and the patient. If the patient signs a release form, they are done, and the surgeon is not responsible. They [surgeons] are there to help people, but they can't be responsible for people that will lie to get their way.
I agree that people should seek out therapeutic help if they are under stress, and someone seeking to transition their gender would qualify. But this onus that was created for the therapist to act as a gatekeeper is to me, an outdated notion -- well-meaning, but pointless.
I think that therapists need to get back into the business of helping people deal with taking responsibility for their own actions, and out of the business of trying to manipuate people into a certain course of action.
Maybe, just maybe if that power were removed from them, than people coming into a therapists office would feel free to discuss their issues rather than telling whatever story was needed to obtain the service they desire. In essence, giving people more freedom and control over their behaviour could engender an environment, where a therapist could help a person discover that the issue(s) motivating them to feel compelled to obtain GRS or whatever, will not help them solve the issue. I don't feel that the current climate, somewhat adverserial, and definitely coersive, does anything to help the 1% from obtaining said GRS or other surgery anyway. Freedom is needed to develop a bond of trust, and if a person feels constrained from talking about issues out of fear of losing access to their compulsion, than nothing has been gained. That person will surely lie, because they have so much to lose, in their own mind.
Remove the barrier, and that person now has the freedom to actually talk freely to their therapist.
It may sound silly, and it may be contrary to everything everyone has been taught, but from my POV, the system isn't doing anything to help the situation as it is now. And we all know that the definition for insanity is to do the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. Even if this does nothing to help the 1% people, at least it has freed up the actions of the other 99%. And who here, if PO, would not have chosen to have corrective surgery at the getgo were it available? I can tell you what all the people I've known would say unanimously -- if I was going to do it anyway, why not get it out of the way, so as to focus on lifeskills instead of worrying about when or if surgery will become available.
To me, it like my Mother's theory on kids and candy. The more you restrict it, the more valuable it becomes. So, she used to place candy out in the middle of the table for any of us to grab what we wanted, when we wanted it. It was there, 24/7, twelve months per year.
Did we stuff ourselves with candy? No. We barely thought about it. It was just there. I think perhaps if surgery were removed from the holy grail of trassexualism, than the compulsion to have surgery might lessen as well.
Quote from: Thundra on March 17, 2007, 07:11:03 PM
Maybe, just maybe if that power were removed from them, than people coming into a therapists office would feel free to discuss their issues rather than telling whatever story was needed to obtain the service they desire. In essence, giving people more freedom and control over their behaviour could engender an environment, where a therapist could help a person discover that the issue(s) motivating them to feel compelled to obtain GRS or whatever, will not help them solve the issue. I don't feel that the current climate, somewhat adverserial, and definitely coersive, does anything to help the 1% from obtaining said GRS or other surgery anyway. Freedom is needed to develop a bond of trust, and if a person feels constrained from talking about issues out of fear of losing access to their compulsion, than nothing has been gained. That person will surely lie, because they have so much to lose, in their own mind.
Remove the barrier, and that person now has the freedom to actually talk freely to their therapist.
Not being completely honest with therapists is also not so uncommon for the 99% of people. E.g. liking bdsm or being poly are not contraindications to being TS (and have nothing to do with it), but some therapists may see them as sick and cause problems. Thus people end up polishing "unnecessary" details from their stories.
Quote from: Thundra on March 17, 2007, 07:11:03 PM
:: sigh :: I know it sounds harsh, but this is why I say caveat emptor.
No matter what anyone does, if someone is hellbent on having surgery, for whatever reason, they will jump through the correct hoops to do so.
I personally feel that it is ridiculous for 1% of the patients to control the process for the other 99% that have their head in the right place. Especially since these 1% are going to do it their way no matter what.
Which is why I advocate that the surgery is between the surgeon and the patient. If the patient signs a release form, they are done, and the surgeon is not responsible. They [surgeons] are there to help people, but they can't be responsible for people that will lie to get their way.
I agree that people should seek out therapeutic help if they are under stress, and someone seeking to transition their gender would qualify. But this onus that was created for the therapist to act as a gatekeeper is to me, an outdated notion -- well-meaning, but pointless.
I think that therapists need to get back into the business of helping people deal with taking responsibility for their own actions, and out of the business of trying to manipuate people into a certain course of action.
Maybe, just maybe if that power were removed from them, than people coming into a therapists office would feel free to discuss their issues rather than telling whatever story was needed to obtain the service they desire. In essence, giving people more freedom and control over their behaviour could engender an environment, where a therapist could help a person discover that the issue(s) motivating them to feel compelled to obtain GRS or whatever, will not help them solve the issue. I don't feel that the current climate, somewhat adverserial, and definitely coersive, does anything to help the 1% from obtaining said GRS or other surgery anyway. Freedom is needed to develop a bond of trust, and if a person feels constrained from talking about issues out of fear of losing access to their compulsion, than nothing has been gained. That person will surely lie, because they have so much to lose, in their own mind.
Remove the barrier, and that person now has the freedom to actually talk freely to their therapist.
It may sound silly, and it may be contrary to everything everyone has been taught, but from my POV, the system isn't doing anything to help the situation as it is now. And we all know that the definition for insanity is to do the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. Even if this does nothing to help the 1% people, at least it has freed up the actions of the other 99%. And who here, if PO, would not have chosen to have corrective surgery at the getgo were it available? I can tell you what all the people I've known would say unanimously -- if I was going to do it anyway, why not get it out of the way, so as to focus on lifeskills instead of worrying about when or if surgery will become available.
To me, it like my Mother's theory on kids and candy. The more you restrict it, the more valuable it becomes. So, she used to place candy out in the middle of the table for any of us to grab what we wanted, when we wanted it. It was there, 24/7, twelve months per year.
Did we stuff ourselves with candy? No. We barely thought about it. It was just there. I think perhaps if surgery were removed from the holy grail of trassexualism, than the compulsion to have surgery might lessen as well.
God
damn. I think she hit a bullseye with this one.
However, what you are suggesting, Thundra, is that people use common sense and honesty to get through life. As we all know, this is the best policy, but the majority of people (in this society in particular) are so terrified of
everything that they feel they need numbers and official documents and trained professionals to protect them from bad things.
Like you stated yourself. Numbers and restrictions mean nothing to overwhelming emotion; it can't be blocked. Where there's a will, there's a way.
Let's change the world, baby!
~ Blair
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 17, 2007, 05:55:29 PM
There was someone who came into the fourms a few months ago who regretted having surgery. The story sounded suspect. I thought it was a troll. But it may have been possible that she had the surgery many years ago before the standards were well established.
Cindi
Troll! ;)
tink :icon_chick:
Thundra, your argument for getting rid of the gatekeepers is logical and I can tell you that I had the same feelings, both preop and postop. I felt that anyone with 1/2 a brain could answer therapists' questions and get the letter. It's similar to the supposid gatekeeping that stores put applicants through when applying for minimum wage work. Some of the questions deal with theft: "Have you stolen property from previous employers?" Most people have taken pens from employers so the answer SHOULD be "Yes." "Would you find it difficult if the job you were assigned to was boring?" The answer COULD be, "Yes, I hate boring jobs" But no, you'll answer "No, no matter what the job is, there's always SOMETHING that I find interesting!" You answer, unless you're brain dead, is to always assert positive thinking -- either that, or you don't get the job, or you don't get the SRS permission letter.
The biggest problem with scrapping the gatekeeper aspect is that, despite your logical POV, therapists and doctors are scared like heck of being sued. You can imagine the headlines now: "Doctor and therapist sued by VICTIM who states he was conned into it." Violence and sex stories always leap to the front pages of newspapers because they sell. To have a non-gatekeeper setup to get SRS, you would have to have one heck of a WAIVER from being sued document. And, even then, some idiots just looking to pay off the hefty SRS expenses could sue. Most TS's have a strong sense of morality but it's that 1% that you talk about that wrecks it for us. That is true with most things: A small group of terrorists now make it so we ALL have to wait in slow security lines at airports. A few idiot high school kids shoot their guns at school and now we have schools with metal detectors at the entrances. One idiot puts poison into a food package and we all end up paying for higher packaging costs.
The only scenario I see where you and I could get our way of getting rid of therapists as gatekeepers is when, presumably ten or twenty years from now, medical experts narrow the specific gene or DNA component that causes transsexualism. Some will undoubtably argue, when they don't have that gene, "but I still feel like I have the body of the wrong gender." And they could be right. And 100 years from now, further medical studies might show that they were right, also.
It's hard. I know. I hated the idea of gatekeepers. Being I'm libertarian, I'm against a lot of society's controls. But,chin up and jump that hoop. In time, it'll be over with and you can get on with life.
Teri Anne
I personally do not believe being TS is genetic because it does not seem to be something that is passed down from parent to child and if that happens to be the case, it is so rare, that the data could not be used to prove it. If I could have had SRS from the very beginning, I probably still would have gone the route I'm going because I could not have afforded SRS at the beginning and living life as a woman with the wrong gentials is much more appealing than living as a man with a vagina. I didn't go through all of this to change my genitals, I did it to be a woman in as many aspects as possible and I feel living fulltime as a woman gives you more of those aspects than SRS does.
Melissa
QuoteThe biggest problem with scrapping the gatekeeper aspect is that, despite your logical POV, therapists and doctors are scared like heck of being sued. You can imagine the headlines now: "Doctor and therapist sued by VICTIM who states he was conned into it." Violence and sex stories always leap to the front pages of newspapers because they sell. To have a non-gatekeeper setup to get SRS, you would have to have one heck of a WAIVER from being sued document. And, even then, some idiots just looking to pay off the hefty SRS expenses could sue. Most TS's have a strong sense of morality but it's that 1% that you talk about that wrecks it for us. That is true with most things: A small group of terrorists now make it so we ALL have to wait in slow security lines at airports. A few idiot high school kids shoot their guns at school and now we have schools with metal detectors at the entrances. One idiot puts poison into a food package and we all end up paying for higher packaging costs.
A very valid analysis m'dear. It's
always that one idiot that screws up things for the everyone else.
But, I think that you get what you ask for -- not always right away, but eventually things change. And if people are willing to being coerced into a certain way of doing things, than it will not change. If however, people stand up and demand things to change, than eventually they will.
Queer people in general have more rights than people that go through this transition process, for that very reason. They demanded that things change. A good example is removal of homosexuality from the DSM-IV, as a mental illness. I think that over time, as more and more people transitioning demand that the status quo be modified, that the process will evolve into something where the patients have more control than they do presently.
I know that it is too late for the people that have been there, and done that, but it will definitely help the people still waiting to wade their turn thru the quagmire.
QuoteI personally do not believe being TS is genetic because it does not seem to be something that is passed down from parent to child and if that happens to be the case, it is so rare, that the data could not be used to prove it.
Personally, I don't think it really matters. If you have a condition, that can be treated by a variety of means, it doesn't really matter, to me, what causes it. And since
you are responsible for seeking out treatment, and paying for almost the whole cost of it with little to no help, than I don't see what right anybody has in trying to control your treatment regimen?
QuoteIf I could have had SRS from the very beginning, I probably still would have gone the route I'm going because I could not have afforded SRS at the beginning and living life as a woman with the wrong gentials is much more appealing than living as a man with a vagina. I didn't go through all of this to change my genitals, I did it to be a woman in as many aspects as possible and I feel living fulltime as a woman gives you more of those aspects than SRS does.
Understandable, and yet, wouldn't the transition have been simpler and fraught with less acrimony if you didn't have to constantly be worried about whether someone would accidently find out about your genitalia? I say again, no other woman has to have her genitalia inspected before she uses the restroom, so why should you? If it is your intention to have the surgery anyway, why not get it done if it is available to you?
Every other woman is born female, and grows into whatever kind of woman she becomes. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same? Nothing would stop you from doing everything else you have done, or intend to do anyway? So, why do it in opposite order than what usually occurs for most women? Born with vagina -- socialized as woman. I mean you have a distinct advantage over your opposites, those transitioning the other way, but that point also stands.
Why not have breast surgery first, take Testosterone second? I don't see a problem with this idea?
My first regret is that I did not transition in my teens. My second regret is that legal status of gender corrected persons is still a limbo depending on which state you were born in. I also don't like like argueing with my supposed peers, because they disagree with my decision to seek full female status, when they are happy just to be transsexuals.
http://groups.msn.com/EqualrightsforGenderCorrectedpersons
peace
JaneX
Quote from: JaneX on March 21, 2007, 10:02:41 PM
My first regret is that I did not transition in my teens. My second regret is that legal status of gender corrected persons is still a limbo depending on which state you were born in. I also don't like like argueing with my supposed peers, because they disagree with my decision to seek full female status, when they are happy just to be transsexuals.
http://groups.msn.com/EqualrightsforGenderCorrectedpersons
peace
JaneX
this thread is about regrets concerning grs , and not [about difficulties] in achieving transition.
JaneX,
We'd love to hear your story. Why don't you start a thread about it?
Cindi
This is a 2007 thread.
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