Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Already for pre-ops on HRT many already have sex drive dead, I wonder if post-ops have it all completely dead? Is there a way to fix this? Do some after operation take a slight dose of Testosterone to increase libido or the little amount produced by the adrenal is enough?

Please remember the mind is a very powerful tool.  You can make yourself be in the mood.

Quote from: Happy Girl on January 15, 2012, 08:12:01 AM
Already for pre-ops on HRT many already have sex drive dead, I wonder if post-ops have it all completely dead? Is there a way to fix this? Do some after operation take a slight dose of Testosterone to increase libido or the little amount produced by the pancreas is enough?

There are no Testosterone Production coming from the Pancrea.
You are thinking of the Adrenal Glands.
Usually, those gland produces a fully enough dose of Testosterone after SRS, however, for some people, the Libido is totally gone pre and post-op.
There may be different reasons for abscent Libido. One common cause when this happens, may be because the hormone doses needs to be adjusted and more Estrogene and sometimes also Progesterone, added, which normally solves the problem without any need for added Testosterone, while others, nonetheless, may in some occasions need very small amounts of extra Testosterone added their medication under Medical supervision.
Another more psychological reason in some MTFs that experience a total loss of Libido, may be because the person in question is not an actual "born transsexual" with a truly female brain, but perhaps transitioned because they were attracted to the idea of being a woman(Nothing wrong with that), and therefore the HRT will sometimes for such a person, function rather as a Chemical Castration rather than causing a welcome rewiring of the Libido, such as in the transsexual with a female wired brain, or how to word it.

Remember that every transitioner is different and transitions for different reasons.

To answer your question: of course I can only speak for myself..........NO, it's still alive, actually, better than it was before.

Well, well, now is Bishounen post-op I ask myself, to know some of his telling first hand i.e. by his own body?

The Adrenal gland info, I have no issue with. The HRT-zero-libido for when "non-transsexual" and on HRT, is leaning some out of the window... just my notion.
It's NOT all wrong, really, but sounds just a bit categorical the way it comes across.

Am I now ever so lucky to learn after SRS, that I'm transsexual after all?! - Since my libido was not 'killed off' even though my T was next to non-existent during my pre-op time? Kiss and tell --- such a good girl, hey :-)

That will take us back to the most important sex organ - the BRAIN.

It is my current experience that my libido has almost vanished – using less E and no AAs post-op, and past 4th month.
BUT --- GID is also gone, and I have the feeling that GID was a driver for pre-op libido.
You sooo desperate wanting to be in the right body that getting off, or having sex, surely was one way to just quell all this "in the wrong body pain" for at least a short while at a time.

Since GID is gone post-op (for most) the desperation-state has come to rest, and libido... well, it seems the brain has to readjust to that new post-op non-GID situation.

That is my finding so far.

Note, there are quite some post-ops that posted here and had one VERY lively libido - but I think all of them had also a period of re-adjustment, some 4 - 6 month, my best guess.

Mine, after 4 month is starting to show up - but NEVER in any way to be compared to that pre-op 'desperation libido'.

So, that's my personal experience and as always - YMMV.

Axélle

I'm pre-op and not on HRT, but both my T and E levels are 20.  I still have libido, but not like when I was taking T (I have Kleinfelters).  When on T, I had libido when I didn't want it, but now although I have feelings and desires, it is not out of control and much more influenced by my mind.  If I'm with a partner, I need to be romanced and warmed up, where as a guy can just "get it on."  I'm also much more turned on by emotional things rather than the sight of a good looking guy.  Just my own experience.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 15, 2012, 09:35:04 AM
Well, well, now is Bishounen post-op I ask myself, to know some of his telling first hand i.e. by his own body?

::) No, I am, however, "Spayed" since ten years, if you must know, plus, I also base my answer on experience from people I personally know, and, what other people have said about themselves on the matter

QuoteThe Adrenal gland info, I have no issue with. The HRT-zero-libido for when "non-transsexual" and on HRT, is leaning some out of the window... just my notion.

Probably because you translates it as being an statement about who is more "Valid" as a transitioner, when in actuality it is not about that at all as every transitioner is just as "Valid" regardless of reason for their Sexchange, as long as they genuinly does so to lead a better life in harmony with themselves.
I also added that it, in only some people, is a reason for abscent Libido- Not THE reason for everyone.
In fact, I brought up different reasons for abscent Libido.

QuoteIt's NOT all wrong, really, but sounds just a bit categorical the way it comes across.

Nothing at all is wrong in my answer, as it is not opinion but fact, as I have based my statements on what people have actually said themselves.

QuoteAm I now ever so lucky to learn after SRS, that I'm transsexual after all?! - Since my libido was not 'killed off' even though my T was next to non-existent during my pre-op time?

Good for you, then. :)
Just remember that just because someone have had SRS it doesn't mean that they are actual Transsexuals, as people can change Sex for all types of reasons.
I know a Gay guy that had intense Therapy and did HRT for two years time and was diagnosed as"True Transsexual" and was also willed the Surgery, only to, when he recieved the approval, turned around and refused it- And that only because he, as he said himself- "just wanted to ->-bleeped-<- with them".

QuoteThat will take us back to the most important sex organ - the BRAIN.

And, that is also the very reason why some MTF's with male brains response to HRT as an Castration- Not a Rewiring and intesifying of the Sexuality.
People that have changed Sex because they have wanted to posses a female body rather than because they have already been females with males bodies, often experience this problem, as their brains are more male than female. And yes, this type is not uncommon at all- In fact, all the older transitioners I know seems to have changed sex rather because they seemed more inspired by the IDEA of living LIKE a woman, than because they already were one, so to speak.

QuoteIt is my current experience that my libido has almost vanished – using less E and no AAs post-op, and past 4th month.
BUT --- GID is also gone, and I have the feeling that GID was a driver for pre-op libido.
You sooo desperate wanting to be in the right body that getting off, or having sex, surely was one way to just quell all this "in the wrong body pain" for at least a short while at a time.

Since GID is gone post-op (for most) the desperation-state has come to rest, and libido... well, it seems the brain has to readjust to that new post-op non-GID situation.

That is my finding so far.

Note, there are quite some post-ops that posted here and had one VERY lively libido - but I think all of them had also a period of re-adjustment, some 4 - 6 month, my best guess.

Mine, after 4 month is starting to show up - but NEVER in any way to be compared to that pre-op 'desperation libido'.

So, that's my personal experience and as always - YMMV.

Axélle

Congratulations to the surgery. :)
And, as you see, everyone is different and reacts different, that is just how it goes.

Well Bishounen, "Pretty Boy" um :-)

you sure seem to know some jolly bad SRS cases, as I hear you.

Now THAT is something I do not. All TGs I know got it pretty fine sorted for all I can note.

In fact, I'm asking myself how one would deal with such a situation in, say friends... it's so messed up and sad!

Strange to me is though, that you know so many... or quite some. It seems quite out of proportion to the ~ 1% of 'claimed' wrong sex re-assignments.

Maybe a cultural thing in your place of residence? --- Sounds like some Latin country to me. Just an intuition though.

In SA, you need to walk over 'burning coals' and then some, to get ANY letter of SRS referral. Then you get either a sh't job, for no money, locally - or need some US$ 15'000.00 in cash to have the alternative. I was lucky to still have the 'ready' ($$$) at the time.

I do ask myself how many wrong sex re-assignments will THAT situation leave for you?!

Yet, your country of residence may have a different approach to SoC, and so as you say --- we all different, or YMMV.

Axélle
PS: since you say "spayed" that would make you assigned female at birth (AFAB), if in deed you AMAB it would be "castrated" - like it or not, but that's the term what you be after an orchiectomy.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 15, 2012, 11:27:08 AM
Well Bishounen, "Pretty Boy" um :-)

Yep, that's Me.  ;D
If it was intended as a compliment, that is. :laugh:

Quoteyou sure seem to know some jolly bad SRS cases, as I hear you.

I never said they were bad cases such as in bad outcomes, except, perhaps, for the gay guy that decided to pull them on, but that cannot be considered an actual bad outcome, in my opinion, or atleast not according to his story.
Again, it is easy to translate it as being bad only because the transitioners I mentioned do not match the "Transpolitically Correct" image of what a true transsexual are, although there are indeed many transitioners that would really not qualify as being"true Transsexuals" at all that have nonetheless yet had fully happy transitions.

QuoteStrange to me is though, that you know so many... or quite some. It seems quite out of proportion to the ~ 1% of 'claimed' wrong sex re-assignments.

First we have to recognize that I never said that any of the persons I know they have expressed any regret- I only said that I would not call them born transsexuals, but rather people that transitioned because they were attracted tio the IDEA of living like a woman.
However, none of them, except for maybe one, seems to have had any regret. Although I have on the other hand not met them for years now, so I will admit that I do not know how they are doing nowadays.

QuoteMaybe a cultural thing in your place of residence? --- Sounds like some Latin country to me. Just an intuition though.

Lol. I am living in Sweden.
Although, I indeed agree that the reasons for transitioning is very much cultural, yes.
In Thailand, for instance, their culture in much functions according to their concept of Yin and Yang, and so does their concept of Gender; If someone, for instance, regardless of Biological Sex, is feminine, then that person is considered as "Meant to be a female" and if someone is Masculine, then that person is in the same way "meant to be a male", regardless of Gender Variant or whether they would be considered transsexual, crossdressers or even gays, according to Therapists in the West World.

And yet, they atleast seemingly turns out happy. Perhaps because they do not dwelve so much on trying to figure out their identities and also have another concept of Gender than the transitioners in the West World. And ofcourse, Thai-people recognizes Gendervarianted people as a natural part in their culture.
I do not know, I'm only guessing, but it would be interesting to see research on these cultural differences in MTF's and also, while on the topic, their Post-op Sexuality.

QuoteIn SA, you need to walk over 'burning coals' and then some, to get ANY letter of SRS referral. Then you get either a sh't job, for no money, locally - or need some US$ 15'000.00 in cash to have the alternative. I was lucky to still have the 'ready' ($$$) at the time.

I do ask myself how many wrong sex re-assignments will THAT situation leave for you?!

Depends. However, that strategy is hardly any guarantee that will automatically weed out true transsexuals from others, as even people that would not be considered as being Diagnosed Transsexuals may become extremely desperate and have even ruined themselves to be able to afford surgery.

QuoteYet, your country of residence may have a different approach to SoC

The rules in Sweden are both harder yet easier at the same time.
It is easier, because practically anyone that applies for Sex Change seems to nowadays be approved no matter who they are, which I find a bit weird, although not wrong in any way, if the patient actually turns out happy.
However, I also think the rules are harder as any person that is not willing to go the whole way, gets refused help. For instance, someone that ony wants hormone therapy and nothing else, is judged as inappropriate, which has caused patients to fake and modify their answers to get the help they need.
I know three persons that originally only wanted HRT and did not want to have any surgery, that nonetheless had surgery anyways only to get HRT. ::)

Please don't misunderstand me, Sweden is not as Iran or anything, and many people have been tremendously helped, but the rules would still need a bit modifying, in my opinion.

QuotePS: since you say "spayed" that would make you assigned female at birth (AFAB), if in deed you AMAB it would be "castrated" - like it or not, but that's the term what you be after an orchiectomy.

Okay, Neutered, then.
I can be a he I can be a She, I can be whatever you want me to be. ;)

Speaking strictly from my own experience. Pre-HRT my libido was low. During HRT pre-op my libido was zero. Post-op my libido was still next to nothing. That lasted for 16 years. Then in 2010 my endocrinologist changed my hormones from oral to patches. THAT made a BIG difference: my libido quickly returned. My only conclusion is that something in the oral HRT suppressed my libido, and the patch doesn't.

As they say: YMMV

Now Bishounen, you got me a bit baffled. (and sorry for being slightly off subject with this, if I may)

On WHO's deeper understanding do you have it, that those folks that transitioned, plus SRS where NOT "true" transsexuals"???

In the first place, that would need to be explained some more – maybe in another thread?
So they transitioned, had SRS and were happy, at least when you last heard of them, but then were never-the-less still some poor misguided souls, and just wanted to be female, but were not transsexual... hum.

Maybe they were, what the SoC calls GID-NOS (Gender Identity Dysphoria-Not Otherwise Specified)?

Folks like that are refused SRS according to SoC, but may have HRT! Another weird twist in how it is interpreted in Sweden, as you say.

Now, and once again WHO???! is the institution that decides a person is GID-NOS i.e. not to be allowed to have SRS? AND ON WHAT BASIS?!

This is why I wanted to call you out on your 'finding' of all those folks you happen to have come across, that are apparently GID-NOS... or essentially unsuitable for SRS.

All I could read so far is, it's based on a 'gut feeling' but nothing hard and fast - unless I overlooked some of your points that you made. Did they have the 'wrong' fantasies? Didn't they cross-dress enough and not early enough? Etc.

So here what we have are folks that aught not have SRS, wind up with 100% completely DEAD post-op sex-drive, are NOT transsexual, but are perfectly contended, up to the point you stopped hearing of them... Well then, I say.

Does that sound a little convoluted - or is it only me?

Just for some added perspective, I have myself first been qualified by my shrink's 'best transitioner' - then there was an éclat at the 'SA gender team' - and then all of the sudden I was 'down graded' GID-NOS. Punishment? Who's to say?

It is exactly for that reason that I been calling you on this issue.
I mean, who HAS that EXACT KNOWING that a person is, or is NOT transsexual? Other then the person him or herself?!

Are you a psychiatrist by any chance? And if so, look what happened to me.
Going subsequently to another shrink, I was cleared GID, fit for SRS with no issues what ever.
So again, who is to say, ME that is transsexual, or the shrink, or some other observer e.g. like yourself???

Food for though, um
Axélle

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 16, 2012, 10:35:51 AM
Now Bishounen, you got me a bit baffled. (and sorry for being slightly off subject with this, if I may)

No worries, I have that effect on people. :P

QuoteOn WHO's deeper understanding do you have it, that those folks that transitioned, plus SRS where NOT "true" transsexuals"???

Firstly, It is not a competition about who is the "real transsexual" and who isn't, as there are simply no such thing, in my opinion, apart then from HBS-transsexuals, that would be the closest thing to "true" transsexuals Clinically speaking, as they have known and been fully aware of their identity since childhood, which often differs from older transitioners, which not seldomly do not discover their GID-feelings until later in life, while yet others do aknowledge feeling different in childhood, although they can not always put the finger on exactly how.
The HBS-transsexual, however, knows exactly from the start how they feel and how they selfidentify- That is the difference.

The HBS-transsexual cannot hide their identities, the other type can. If people say that they have been in the Military and done bodybuilding and have six kids and whatever, they are for the most part- although not always- not HBS, as someone born with actual transsexualism cannot surpress it.

Both types, however, is just as "valid" for transition, in my opinion.

QuoteSo they transitioned, had SRS and were happy, at least when you last heard of them, but then were never-the-less still some poor misguided souls, and just wanted to be female, but were not transsexual... hum.

For what reasons do you consider them to be "poor misguided souls" just because they do not match your opinon on how a transitioner "should" be?

Again- Personally, I never ever said that they were misguided and poor; You did. I said that several of them were not HBS-transsexuals, as none of the older transitioners even knew that they were anything else than males untill they reached the middle age, when they developed the desire to have a woman's anatomy.
Several of them did have, however, a history of Transvestism and Crossdressing, but did not feel like anything else than male untill later in life.

QuoteMaybe they were, what the SoC calls GID-NOS (Gender Identity Dysphoria-Not Otherwise Specified)?

This is how that term is specified: 1. Intersex conditions (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia) and accompanying gender dysphoria

2. Transient, stress-related cross-dressing behavior

3. Persistent preoccupation with castration or penectomy without a desire to acquire the sex characteristics of the other sex, which is known as skoptic syndrome.

QuoteFor some people GID in the DSM-IV is comparable to transsexuality, whereas GIDNOS to them is more comparable to other transgender behaviour that may be seen as disordered. On the other hand, many transgender people themselves feel quite accurately described by the DSM-IV, and many have none of the symptoms listed above under NOS.

Transvestic fetishism has its own code, as a paraphilia rather than a gender identity disorder.

In my opinion, some of the people discussed would fit these descriptions, while others do not.

QuoteFolks like that are refused SRS according to SoC, but may have HRT! Another weird twist in how it is interpreted in Sweden, as you say.

On the other hand, it is not the most unusual thing for people to fake their answers and learn from webpages or friends what they should and should not say to the Gatekeepers and the Therapists.
There are gay guys that have posed as transsexuals only to be able to have SRS, as they have wanted a Vagina but other than that have not had any interest whatsoever of actually being a Woman. And if a gay guy can successfully manipulate the therapists, than why wouldn't others, too?

QuoteNow, and once again WHO???! is the institution that decides a person is GID-NOS i.e. not to be allowed to have SRS? AND ON WHAT BASIS?!

According to the reasoning and what a surgeon said in a TV-Interview on this, people that wanted to be, for instance, "->-bleeped-<-s" were considered an "Absurdity" and hence not what the doctors wanted to "Sponsor".
However, this interview was from 2004, so I will admit that I do not know their nowaday standpoint on this.
One of my closest friends, however, made herself a severe enemy with the shrinks. :laugh:

QuoteThis is why I wanted to call you out on your 'finding' of all those folks you happen to have come across, that are apparently GID-NOS... or essentially unsuitable for SRS.

Lol "Call me out", exactly how? And when did you do that? I must have missed it, sorry.
If you actually read what I wrote, you would not see any inconsistencies in what I said whatsoever.
Relax, you sound angry.

QuoteAll I could read so far is, it's based on a 'gut feeling' but nothing hard and fast - unless I overlooked some of your points that you made. Did they have the 'wrong' fantasies? Didn't they cross-dress enough and not early enough? Etc.

In short, they had "no idea" that they were transsexuals untill late in life which do not fit the croteria of a HBS-transsexual.
That being said, I have absolutely no problem with, for instance, an intense Transvestite that want to change Sex if the person is fully aware what it means. In fact, I think SRS should be avaible to more people than it is now.

QuoteSo here what we have are folks that aught not have SRS, wind up with 100% completely DEAD post-op sex-drive, are NOT transsexual, but are perfectly contended, up to the point you stopped hearing of them... Well then, I say.

Again: For what reasons do you think that they SHOULD not have had SRS?
You know, according to Anti-Trans people, you shouldn't have been allowed to have SRS either, as people with that opinion consider you "deranged" regardless of what you think and feel yourself, so for what reason should your judgement on what those people "should" do or not, be any more valid?

Secondly, I never said that they all ended up with dead pussies. In fact, one of them even ended up as a Nymphomaniac and I have sometimes wondered if she really does anything else at all than sleep aorund. :laugh:
On the other hand, that was the maingoal with her Surgery, so she got what she wanted. :P

QuoteDoes that sound a little convoluted - or is it only me?

It's only you.

QuoteJust for some added perspective, I have myself first been qualified by my shrink's 'best transitioner' - then there was an éclat at the 'SA gender team' - and then all of the sudden I was 'down graded' GID-NOS. Punishment? Who's to say?

Or pehaps just honest truth. As you said, who's to say.

QuoteIt is exactly for that reason that I been calling you on this issue.
I mean, who HAS that EXACT KNOWING that a person is, or is NOT transsexual? Other then the person him or herself?!

Aren't you somewhat shooting youself in the foot with this reasoning, given that you have, yourself, stated that YOU think that none of the individuals I told about, should had been allowed to transition?

QuoteAre you a psychiatrist by any chance?

Nope- Not on paper- No, but I am very interested in Psychology and enjoys studying it.

QuoteGoing subsequently to another shrink, I was cleared GID, fit for SRS with no issues what ever.
So again, who is to say, ME that is transsexual, or the shrink, or some other observer e.g. like yourself???

Either the shrinks simply had different opinions, or, you simply either counsiously or subcounsiously just modified your answers for the new shrink.

The former MTF Alan Finch, then Helen finch, did this very thing as he was denied Surgery from the first tests, and was even judged as being psychologically "too masculine".
Because of this, he learned what to say and what not to say, and simply did the tests once again later on, and was now judged as being fit for Surgery;

QuoteWhen I was 20, the doctors requested that I have a psychiatric assessment to see if I was suitable for the final surgery. My psychological responses were not only masculine, but they were more masculine than they would expect from an average man at my age. And I just couldn't believe it. I mean, it was like my whole dream had fallen apart. Eight months later I resat the testing and by that time I had learned what I should be saying, so in ink blots, instead of saying, "Oh, it's a blob," or, "I really can't see anything," well, then, there was a flower there, or a daisy. And the results came back and it said that the answers I'd given were more socially desirable, and, um, from a defensive pattern, but anyway, they agreed to do it.....

Helen: (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hungangels.com%2Fvboard%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D178898%26amp%3Bstc%3D1%26amp%3Bd%3D1211356198&hash=2cb88ead0c5cd17d5038d94a8821bcbc437b218b)

The Interview, by the way,  is kind of funny, as she in the interview is happy happy happy and says that she would "never regret this", only to do just that years later and say;

QuoteWhen I woke up after the operation, I just couldn't believe it because I felt like I'd been conned actually. I felt like I'd been ripped off. I thought I was going in for a soul transplant. I didn't feel transformed. I felt mutilated. The core of who I was, I felt, had been cut out. That's what it felt like.

QuoteFood for though, um
Axélle

Indeed it is.

Well, it goes to show it is not an easy subject to sort through by posts alone.

If one had SRS and subsequently feels in the wrong body yet all over - that sounds like some mistake would have happened. About 1% of SRS according to some stats.

As for EARLY or LATE transitioners... what we have here - is one HUGH gap in social empathy, insight & understanding toward what actually was the case in the 50s and 60s right up to the early 90s even.

I know TGs that got send to psychiatric wards in the late 60s, and were treated with electro-shock 'therapy' to fix their 'condition'.

If it's considered normal and not HBS, wanting to cut your penis off (like me) then there be VERY few "true transsexuals" in this world, according to this understanding.
I'm a late transitioner and not HBS, as I did not INSIST on dressing like a girl specifically, we all dressed the same till about 5 – 6, I loved my rag-doll, but then there were no gender toys as we have so many today.

... what we can not feel, we do not really understand... and that relates to those conditions at that time.

It is one big difference to READ or HEAR about something - or to actually EXPERIENCE it with your own being i.e. growing up in such an era and environment.

So, what we have then are LATE transitioners that are not "true transsexuals" according to this HBS-trans 'standard' , yet happy, most, - 1%, with a diminished or no sex drive, post-SRS. Now what does THAT all mean in terms what?
Why make a distinction if none is required, I may ask.

It's of some importance to ask this question, as there are those tendencies that old transitioners are just odd folks that want a vagina, and then that was it...
the lot all non-true-transsexuals as per definition HBS, as they aught to have transitioned in the early 50s (me) and be long done. Hm. Really?

And how many would those be? The current majority, all wrongly SRS assigned according to HBS?

Well...
and, I'm not angry, just quite taken by this line of argument – if I got it right, that is.

Axélle

Hope you don't mind a contribution from a non-op.

I don't have a sex drive as such, simply because I don't and never did, enjoy sex. I lack the appropriate equipment. Basically, I'm pulling a cart when I really want to be riding a bike.


But there do seem to be a number of post op girls complaining about their sex drive and their lack of relationships.

I'll be blunt with you. Get real.

OK, so you don't have a date. You and 90% of girls out there. You and 90% of boys out there. That's life.

You have the chance at a new start, a new start with something you probably should have had to begin with.

Life isn't about sex. Life is about life. Sex is just something that happens.

You grew up with a male sex drive, basically designed to impregnate as many females as possible.

But that isn't how women are designed.

:icon_yes:

Quote from: heatherrose on January 16, 2012, 04:00:25 PM

This

:icon_yes:

I add my agreement!
I find male libido devastating for me ( I can't focus, my body goes mad, and so on ) while when I am really in the mood and slow down to welcome feelings and not desperate chemical reactions, I find a seducing atmosphere growing inside, and this is my female libido ( it also reaches a point to start unwanted body reactions, but at least I know why, and It's more focused ), so I guess It's just a mind thing.
And, by the way, libido is just one of the passions that burn inside me! I need them all to be complete, so I am not focused on sex, it just comes and goes, it will and it won't happen.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 16, 2012, 12:10:42 PM

The HBS-transsexual cannot hide their identities, the other type can. If people say that they have been in the Military and done bodybuilding and have six kids and whatever, they are for the most part- although not always- not HBS, as someone born with actual transsexualism cannot surpress it.

Who says that people born with actual transsexualism cannot supress it?  Many have no choice, and sadly, often end up suicidal because of it.  You do what you have to do to survive.

In the U.S., it was against the law to be a homosexual up until maybe the 60's or even later.

      People were locked up in a psych ward for expressing their gender dysphoria in the early 70's.

      It was not only possible to suppress this condition, it became a matter of survival for many.   Until the Internet came along, many thought that they were "the only ones" and didn't even understand that transition was a possibility.

      Knowing that you were a female inside and being able to do anything about it were 2 different things in those days.

Amen, Joyce! 

Wow, thank you girls!
For a short while I was thinking to be all alone in this "late transitioner" not "real-transsexual" notion - of course gracefully allowed to stick around the REAL, HBS-standard measured item, that can not suppress it, from the cradle on.

As I said, it seems exceedingly difficult to put oneself into those earlier social environments and situations, for most if not all, of our much younger folks.
That can't be helped as such, but hopefully the presumptive attitude about what is "real..." and what apparently is not "real..."

Lastly what exactly be the definition of a 100% DEAD sex drive?
The more I think about it the less clear it seems to me.
As was mentioned earlier, it has something male, goal directed to it, yet not to say that some females would notice they are NEVER in the mood, often for most by a grumbling partner...
Finding the right partner, and voila libido often wakes up by some magic... :-)

And also, no offence to our young ones - please,
Axélle

I think someone in this thread needs to ditch their 'trannier-than-thou' attitude and go read the WPATH SoC's..

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 17, 2012, 12:09:16 AM

Lastly what exactly be the definition of a 100% DEAD sex drive?

Not intended to be flippant, but could that possibly be ... dead?

If we take sex as simply being an extension of a normal, social relationship, which is what it is, then having no drive means you have no drive to interact with anything.

It's just our modern, notions of being really clever that cause us to think of everything in boxes. Sex is reproduction.

Except it isn't.

If sex were about reproduction then there would be a baby for every time someone had sex. OK, so that might be pedantic, but how many people say, 'Wow, you look nice, let's jump on the back seat so I can end up pregnant!!'?

Sex is just a part of any social relationship. But convention, most, but not all human societies, then to confine it to a single of small group of partners. But it's only ever going to be fun if you treat it as fun.

It just happens. When you least expect it. When it does, you'll be as much up for it as he is. Until then, you have too many other problems to deal with, like paying your electricity bill.

Spacial,

you funnnny, he he.

But of course you spake some truth, aye.

Axélle

Quote from: heatherrose on January 16, 2012, 04:47:20 PM

First of all: What is your level of gender variance?
Secondly: How old are you?
Late teens, twenties, thirties?
I know you could not possibly be in your forties or older,
to be talking this crap and actually be "transgender"

Are you by any chanse, trying to define who is more worthy to make statements about gendervarianted matters? ;)
Look at my profile after the facts you requests- If you cannot find them there, then it is because I simply do not think it is of anyones concerns.
Sorry.*Shrugs*

Quoteand actually be "transgender"

The term 'Transgender'- Wikipedia:

QuoteWhile people self-identify as transgender, transgender identity includes many overlapping categories. These include cross-dresser (CD); transvestite (TV); androgynes; genderqueer; people who live cross-gender; drag kings; and drag queens; and, frequently, transsexual (TS).

Oops. Seems that 'Transgender' is an umbrella term that includes every gendervariant from Transsexual to Drag Queen.
Means that I am included too, sorry.

To nonetheless be polite and answer your inquiries about my Gender Identity, I would best describe it as a mix between Androgyne and HBS; HBS because I never had an "Awakening" as a transitioner I know had, a married Family father  that did not 'realize' his feelings untill middleaged(Now Post-op), but have simply had my Gender since literally a child and also openly dressed accordingly since pre-teens.
And Androgyne, because I despite my Gender nonetheless enjoys having a Non-specific Gender Exression and feels much more free that way than if I were to squeeze myself in a specific Gender ROLE, just because I have a certain brain wiring and feminine expressions.

That being said, there is absolutely no superiour attitude at all in any of my statements if you read them carefully- merely observations.
In fact, you are using more superiority in your statements, as you reason that if someone state something that is not agreeable to you, then that person is not a Transgender.
That, by the very definition, is the Trannier than thou-attitude.
That attitude do not look good on a Transgender-site as Susan's, so I would suggest that you might think over your usage of it.
Just a friendly advice. :)

QuoteI am a "late transitioner" and I feel slighted by the sentiment you set forth in your posting.

No need to, as I did neither intend nor word it as such, and, not the least, I have added on several occasions throughout the thread that this type of transitioner is just as "Valid"as the Born Type.

QuoteTo assume that some people of my age, just woke up one day and put "Sex Change" on our to-do list is asinine.

In fact, I did not say that at all, please re-read my post.
On the contrary, I do not believe at all that you just woke up and decided it on a whim, no, I said that older transitioners often seem to rather be driven by the idea of living like a woman than already being one in actual brain wiring.
That is the difference(Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with): The Born Transsexual- The HBS- Already have a Crossgendered Brain, and cannot hide their identity nor surpress it, while the person that rather fancys the idea of living like the other Sex, can surpress it as they were not born with Gender Identity of the desired Sex.
However, sometimes and in some cases, a yearning may be, over time, confused for an actual identity, and when a transitioner of the described type tells about their feelings and reasons for wanting to transition, they often say things like "I was always different", "I have always envied the women in my family", "I longed to be a woman", and so on, which they later on takes as conclusive evidence that they must be Born Transsexuals.
Hence, and when communicating with other transitioners, they may modify their back-history to be more "Acceptable" in the eyes of HBS-transsexuals, simply because they do not want to be judged as "Not real"(Because of the famous trannier than thou-attitude) .

QuoteFrom what point of view are you making these assertions?

From people I actually know and have actually met throughout the years- Try it out, you may find it to be very enriching.

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 17, 2012, 12:58:48 AM
I think someone in this thread needs to ditch their 'trannier-than-thou' attitude and go read the WPATH SoC's..

Yes, they indeed should. And read the posts alittle better, too.

Quote from: Bishounen on January 17, 2012, 10:16:31 AM
That is the difference(Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with): The Born Transsexual- The HBS- Already have a Crossgendered Brain, and cannot hide their identity nor surpress it, while the person that rather fancys the idea of living like the other Sex, can surpress it as they were not born with Gender Identity of the desired Sex.
However, sometimes and in some cases, a yearning may be, over time, confused for an actual identity, and when a transitioner of the described type tells about their feelings and reasons for wanting to transition, they often say things like "I was always different", "I have always envied the women in my family", "I longed to be a woman", and so on, which they later on takes as conclusive evidence that they must be Born Transsexuals.

Gender expression varies greatly by culture, time, and individual.  I don't imagine that most transexual children were allowed to openly express their correct gender without severe reprocussions.  As others have said, we were forced to be someone that we were not, and back in the day before internet didn't even know other such people existed.

No matter how much you deny it in your words, you still imply that late transitioners are inferior to "the born type"  as you call them.  My brain is as female as someone that was allowed to express themselves at an early age.  You make it sound like late transitioners do it out of some fancy notion, but the reality is that opportunities vary for everyone.  If we were allowed to be ourselves without fear, things would have been different, but I for one, was not, unless I would have preferred to get the crap beat out of me by my father and then get put into a psych ward - no thank you.

Quote from: Robertina on January 17, 2012, 11:40:04 AM
Gender expression varies greatly by culture, time, and individual.

Actually, no, as every known culture on Earth, regardless of Era or place, knows exactly what a feminine male is and can also all describe that feminine male in the same way, despite none of the cultures at the time having ever met each other.
The only thing that differs from cultures, are various "doings" and tasks - However not the actual Gender Expressions. Neither Native Americans or even the Biblical Cultures would agree with you on that.

QuoteI don't imagine that most transexual children were allowed to openly express their correct gender without severe reprocussions.  As others have said, we were forced to be someone that we were not, and back in the day before internet didn't even know other such people existed.

It is not a matter of being allowed to express it or not. If a HBS-person could truly surpress themselves, then there would never have been any such individuals ending up in the Psychiatric Wards in the old days, for being- big quote- "deviant".
Christine Jorgenssen changed Sex in the 1950's although even mere Crossdressing was considered "perverted" and even illegal in thosedays, simply because she could not surpress her true identity until at most her early twenties.
A HBS cannot surpress themselves, period.

QuoteNo matter how much you deny it in your words, you still imply that late transitioners are inferior to "the born type"  as you call them.

Incorrect. In fact, You are- I, on the other side, have never said or even impliyed such a thing- merely that they are different.
Unless, ofcourse, you are implying that being different and have different resons for transitioning is unacceptable..?

QuoteMy brain is as female as someone that was allowed to express themselves at an early age.

Well then, in that case you are a HBS-transsexual. No need to get your undies in a bunch, in other words. :)

QuoteYou make it sound like late transitioners do it out of some fancy notion

Not at all, as I, in fact, stated clearly that it do not applies to all late transitioners.

Quotebut the reality is that opportunities vary for everyone.

As I also have stated a few times now. ;)
 

QuoteIf we were allowed to be ourselves without fear, things would have been different, but I for one, was not, unless I would have preferred to get the crap beat out of me by my father and then get put into a psych ward - no thank you.

So you made the right choise. I have nothing else to say than to congratulate you on doing that choise and walking the path that was right for you. :)

Quote from: Bishounen on January 17, 2012, 10:16:31 AM
Are you by any chanse, trying to define who is more worthy to make statements about gendervarianted matters? ;)
Look at my profile after the facts you requests- If you cannot find them there, then it is because I simply do not think it is of anyones concerns.
Sorry.*Shrugs*The term 'Transgender'- Wikipedia:Oops. Seems that 'Transgender' is an umbrella term that includes every gendervariant from Transsexual to Drag Queen.
Means that I am included too, sorry.

To nonetheless be polite and answer your inquiries about my Gender Identity, I would best describe it as a mix between Androgyne and HBS; HBS because I never had an "Awakening" as a transitioner I know had, a married Family father  that did not 'realize' his feelings untill middleaged(Now Post-op), but have simply had my Gender since literally a child and also openly dressed accordingly since pre-teens.
And Androgyne, because I despite my Gender nonetheless enjoys having a Non-specific Gender Exression and feels much more free that way than if I were to squeeze myself in a specific Gender ROLE, just because I have a certain brain wiring and feminine expressions.

That being said, there is absolutely no superiour attitude at all in any of my statements if you read them carefully- merely observations.
In fact, you are using more superiority in your statements, as you reason that if someone state something that is not agreeable to you, then that person is not a Transgender.
That, by the very definition, is the Trannier than thou-attitude.
That attitude do not look good on a Transgender-site as Susan's, so I would suggest that you might think over your usage of it.
Just a friendly advice. :)
No need to, as I did neither intend nor word it as such, and, not the least, I have added on several occasions throughout the thread that this type of transitioner is just as "Valid"as the Born Type.
In fact, I did not say that at all, please re-read my post.
On the contrary, I do not believe at all that you just woke up and decided it on a whim, no, I said that older transitioners often seem to rather be driven by the idea of living like a woman than already being one in actual brain wiring.
That is the difference(Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with): The Born Transsexual- The HBS- Already have a Crossgendered Brain, and cannot hide their identity nor surpress it, while the person that rather fancys the idea of living like the other Sex, can surpress it as they were not born with Gender Identity of the desired Sex.
However, sometimes and in some cases, a yearning may be, over time, confused for an actual identity, and when a transitioner of the described type tells about their feelings and reasons for wanting to transition, they often say things like "I was always different", "I have always envied the women in my family", "I longed to be a woman", and so on, which they later on takes as conclusive evidence that they must be Born Transsexuals.
Hence, and when communicating with other transitioners, they may modify their back-history to be more "Acceptable" in the eyes of HBS-transsexuals, simply because they do not want to be judged as "Not real"(Because of the famous trannier than thou-attitude) .
From people I actually know and have actually met throughout the years- Try it out, you may find it to be very enriching.

The born and non born difference is just in your mind my dear. I am ok with it if makes you feel better, maybe even more beautifoul than other unlucky older transgenders.
But i assure you everybody can suppress whatever she is forced to suppress since she is a child, and this is prooven, especially in the psichiatric diseas correlated, making all the assumptions of the inability to suppress for the arian transsexuals and the whole following theory just a non sense, as it is. But again, if it makes you feel better it's ok

As for me
I was always trans, i just had to suppress every desire toward it, sex, friendship, games, even more simple feelings, i lived a chaotic hell for this reason, cause there was no chance to be happy at all triing to act as a man and making my man impersonation satisfy my women needs, and I also have to feel like someone who is less female.
Female or not female is not in things you do, not in the clothes you wear since a child ( if my mother would have put on me a girl dress since i was 4 i think my fate would be different, and i do tried to tell something was wrong with all of the man things for me ) it is a feeling and therefore has no spectrum, you can't quantify a feeling! Try to give a number to it! Some are lucky that can live with their own feelings and be accepted, some have to suppress them.
If you think some is born and some has a different feeling maybe you can just agree with whom beliefs there's no feeling at all and thinks we're just a mass of perverts, it's easier. As you see discrimination never stops.
Hi

We all in this forum are waiting your approval to know if we are female enough

Quote from: Bishounen on January 17, 2012, 12:30:49 PM
It is not a matter of being allowed to express it or not. If a HBS-person could truly surpress themselves, then there would never have been any such individuals ending up in the Psychiatric Wards in the old days, for being- big quote- "deviant".
Christine Jorgenssen changed Sex in the 1950's although even mere Crossdressing was considered "perverted" and even illegal in thosedays, simply because she could not surpress her true identity until at most her early twenties.
A HBS cannot surpress themselves, period.

Haha! Really? You're bringing up the old HBS categories? You are 30 years out of date there. Those got discarded AGES ago.

And just 'cause you can't hide what you are, doesn't mean you come out, and doesn't mean people get it. When I was growing up in my society, everyone just thought I was gay - no psych wards required. Oh, and I'm a dyke, which means I don't exist as far as those old categories go. Since transsexualism was linked to heterosexuality in Harry Benjamin's model. Hell, even he agreed that the model wasn't right eventually. :P

Quote from: Sweet Blue Girl on January 17, 2012, 12:40:00 PM
The born and non born difference is just in your mind my dear.

They are? Funny, I thought they were in every therapists minds, too, as that is, after all, what they base their conclutions on.
But, let us hypothesize that there, as you say, are no differences; If there are none, as you say, then how come there are people that in modern days have been diagnosed as true transsexuals and yet have turned out later on to not be so at all?

Opinions? No, I do not ask for the percentage of regret, but asking why these people exist if every diagnosed transsexual are the same and, "true", as you hint it?

QuoteI am ok with it if makes you feel better, maybe even more beautifoul than other unlucky older transgenders.

That is too kind of you. :) However, I am probably the only one in this thread that do not need such validation. :)

QuoteBut i assure you everybody can suppress whatever she is forced to suppress since she is a child, and this is prooven, especially in the psichiatric diseas correlated, making all the assumptions of the inability to suppress for the arian transsexuals and the whole following theory just a non sense, as it is. But again, if it makes you feel better it's ok

Again, please see previous post.^

QuoteAs for me
I was always trans, i just had to suppress every desire toward it, sex, friendship, games, even more simple feelings, i lived a chaotic hell for this reason, cause there was no chance to be happy at all triing to act as a man and making my man impersonation satisfy my women needs, and I also have to feel like someone who is less female.

Nor have I said that there would be any reason for someone wanting to be a woman to surpress that, regardless of reason.

QuoteFemale or not female is not in things you do

In fact, it is, as the things you do is a result of the Identity you posses.
I am sorry to be blunt, but it somewhat sounds as if you have been brainwashed by the Gender Neutrality Theory which goes that Gender is Cultural- Not Biological, and hence, Gender Expressions have nothing at all to do with Gender Identity, which, ofcourse, you also know yourself.

Quotenot in the clothes you wear since a child ( if my mother would have put on me a girl dress since i was 4 i think my fate would be different, and i do tried to tell something was wrong with all of the man things for me ) it is a feeling and therefore has no spectrum, you can't quantify a feeling!

You do know that Feeling verses Knowledge of Identity is two different matters which not necessarily even needs to be the same thing, right(although it ofcourse also can)?
If you knew you Gender since that age, then your feeling was also correct. However, the way you use "feeling" sounds somewhat vague as if you did not really know what you felt, rather than that you just were different. And as I have demonstrated, feeling different, in these cases, do not necessarily equals HBS.

QuoteAs you see discrimination never stops.
Hi

Oh I wholeheartedly agree on that.

QuoteWe all in this forum are waiting your approval to know if we are female enough

You do? I thought you said that you were so sure about yourself already? If you are needing another persons approval about your identity, then that is one of the very few indications that I would take as "Not genuine".


Sincerely/B

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 17, 2012, 12:52:56 PM
Haha! Really? You're bringing up the old HBS categories? You are 30 years out of date there. Those got discarded AGES ago.

The Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association's
Standards Of Care For Gender Identity Disorders, Sixth Version
February, 2001 http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf)

*Hugs*

QuoteAnd just 'cause you can't hide what you are, doesn't mean you come out, and doesn't mean people get it. When I was growing up in my society, everyone just thought I was gay - no psych wards required. Oh, and I'm a dyke, which means I don't exist as far as those old categories go. Since transsexualism was linked to heterosexuality in Harry Benjamin's model. Hell, even he agreed that the model wasn't right eventually. :P

If even people today are fighting even over the current guidelines, then for what reason would any guidelines regardless of age, be considered as "perfect" guidelines..?

Quote from: Bishounen on January 17, 2012, 12:30:49 PM
Actually, no, as every known culture on Earth, regardless of Era or place, knows exactly what a feminine male is and can also all describe that feminine male in the same way, despite none of the cultures at the time having ever met each other.
The only thing that differs from cultures, are various "doings" and tasks - However not the actual Gender Expressions. Neither Native Americans or even the Biblical Cultures would agree with you on that.

I said "gender expression"  varies.  I can show you some Cambodian men that, by U.S. cultural standards, would be considered very feminine, or even gay, but in their culture they are acting like typical men.  Another example is that both Cambodian men and women wear skirts, but slightly different, yet the difference is probably not noticeable to most westerners who don't know the culture.  Even in western culture, in the past it was unheard of for women to have short hair, but now it is quite common, yet still there are those that consider it masculine. 

My point is that I can be a woman inside yet not express this openly by wearing women's clothes, using female mannerisms, etc.  I have to be concious of it and work at it, but it can be done, even though it leads to greater GID.  Perhaps we just won't agree on this, but I think there are plenty of examples of transexuals who have not expressed their true gender, for a variety of reasons.  To imply that such individuals do not really have brain wiring according to their perceived gender borders on hurtful, imo.

Is this going ANYWERE? This starts to sound like some cock-fight rather then hen-pecking by now.

Should we consider to lock it?

It's not getting anywhere, as I can see.

Just a dilly old girly saying...
Axélle

Quote from: Bishounen on January 17, 2012, 01:08:29 PM
The Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association's
Standards Of Care For Gender Identity Disorders, Sixth Version
February, 2001 http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf)

*Hugs*
If even people today are fighting even over the current guidelines, then for what reason would any guidelines regardless of age, be considered as "perfect" guidelines..?

First, I'd point out that those guidelines you linked do not in any way include the original Benjamin scale, despite his name being part of the organization that produced them.

Secondly, those are out of date. Here is the current seventh version : http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf (http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf)

I wouldn't consider any of the guidelines perfect. Where did you possibly get that from anything I wrote? I was just pointing out that the original ones were worse than most. At least from my perspective. I'd be a Benjamin type 6 on all criteria except for sexuality, and just that would have been enough to prevent me from getting help. Thankfully we've moved on since then.

Quote from: Robertina on January 17, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
I said "gender expression"  varies.  I can show you some Cambodian men that, by U.S. cultural standards, would be considered very feminine, or even gay, but in their culture they are acting like typical men.

Yes, please add some links about those Cultures, they sound very interesting. :)

QuoteAnother example is that both Cambodian men and women wear skirts, but slightly different, yet the difference is probably not noticeable to most westerners who don't know the culture.  Even in western culture, in the past it was unheard of for women to have short hair, but now it is quite common, yet still there are those that consider it masculine.

I see your påoint, however I disdagree that it is gender expressions. Hairstyles and clothes says nothing about how a person actually express themselves in movements, speach and behaviour, as a consequence of the persons actual.
For instance, a Cis-woman can put on a suit and a hat and cut her hair short, but that do not mean that her Expression, despite her clothing, is anything else than feminine.

QuoteMy point is that I can be a woman inside yet not express this openly by wearing women's clothes, using female mannerisms, etc.  I have to be concious of it and work at it, but it can be done, even though it leads to greater GID.  Perhaps we just won't agree on this, but I think there are plenty of examples of transexuals who have not expressed their true gender, for a variety of reasons.  To imply that such individuals do not really have brain wiring according to their perceived gender borders on hurtful, imo.

Ofcourse you can, fully agree about that, and as I also said, the previous examples of people not born with a Crossgendered brain, do not apply to every transitioner but only a type of transitioner, as every transitioner is different.

In my opinion, it is actually more potentially hurtful to suggest that all transitioners, even if they truly are happy, are born transsexuals, as it applies some kind of Superiority in the T-Community that a transitioner HAS to live up to, instead of being allowed to openly be just another type of transitioner and still being accepted for just that.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 17, 2012, 01:16:17 PM
Is this going ANYWERE? This starts to sound like some cock-fight rather then hen-pecking by now.

Should we consider to lock it?

It's not getting anywhere, as I can see.

Just a dilly old girly saying...
Axélle

Seems we finally agree on something. :laugh: I would not mind having it locked at all. ::)

Funny, and all this only because I stated different reasons for why someone may loose their sexdrive. :laugh:

I had to look up what this HBS stuff is, not having any idea.  My information shows that it is a different set of SOC by a non-medical person and it is not endorsed by the medical community, as is the WPATH SOC. 

Even so, the HBS itself says, "Diagnosis:
Harry Benjamin's Syndrome is distinctive in that it is a self-diagnosed condition; that is, people with HBS are exclusively aware of its presence and the onus for articulating its existence lies with them.

Regrettably, most HBS patients are aware of it from early childhood, long before they are old enough to articulate its essence.  As a result, they invariably suffer an existence of prolonged isolation and confusion.  Ironically, once capable of understanding the nature of their dilemma, they are almost universally stigmatized into keeping it secret until such time as they can no longer tolerate suffering its destructive effects. " 

The HBS says that these individuals must often keep their condition secret, ie., not expressing your true self and gender.

Anyway, I agree with Axelle and I'm bowing out of this thread - I have more important things to do, like determine my hose size and find some affordable yet pretty shoes that will fit my big footsies!

Hi All,

I'm locking this thread it doesn't seem to be serving any great purpose and has certainly drifted from the OP. It is also starting to get a bit aggro and to be honest I could use a break from aggro threads.

If anyone feels strongly about unlocking feel free to ask FA or Susan

Thanks
Cindy