The Christopher Street Bar, a gay drag bar in florida, has enacted a dress code policy for it's patrons. I hesitate to even post this, as I frankly don't have a problem with this particular case for some reason. But it is of interest, even if only for the ethical debate it represents.
The club provides this official "canned" description:
Christopher Street implemented a dress code based on dozens of customer complaints. The previous location was having a problem with older "straight" guys dressing as women (without undergarments I might add) and causing problems with our Gay cliental. It got to the point were something had to be done. Based on suggestions from Our guest and then on the advise of our attorney, we put a dress code in effect which allowed us to control the problem without discriminating based on race, sex, creed or religion. Since placing our dress code policy in effect the problem seems to have been solved. With the exception of two individuals, who I will not name, everyone has been very happy with this solution, business has tripled, we have Not had one altercation between guest. It seems the problem has been solved with the exception of the very few who want to make this Something it is not, We thank you for your understanding and hope this clears up any confusion.
When asked for clarification, the owner allegedly emailed:
We welcome everyone to our club. In response to customer complaints, we have enacted a dress code policy that simply states to dress gender appropriate. Since placing this policy in effect, the customer response has been overwhelmingly positive. The club does not discriminate based on race, religion, sex etc. It is simply a dress code policy to ensure that all patrons have an enjoyable visit.
I wrote the owner and asked specifically what he meant by "gender appropriate;" that is, if I, as a transitioning transsexual would be allowed to enter, dressed in ordinary female attire. I received:
This really is not even an issue. We have only turned two individuals away based on our policy and those two both were problem people at our old location.... We enacted a dress code policy worded on the advice of our attorney. You cannot have a dress code policy that is only good for some people and changes for others, it must be the same across the board. I understand that the public not knowing the situation would think this is not a fair code. I assure you it truly has never been an issue. If someone goes out for the evening dresses appropriately (as if they were going to an Olive Garden for dinner) they would not even be noticed. If someone dresses in women's night clothing or lack of it, a five oclock shadow and an attitude towards our gay cliental, we have at least protected our cliental and guests from problems.
I DO think a generic policy was a clumsy way to solve a problem with two individuals, but somehow this just doesn't bother me. He did say "gender appropriate," not "birth-sex appropriate." And besides, it is a GAY DRAG BAR. Going there as an erotically-dressed hetrerosexual crossdresser just seems... I dunno... rude somehow.
Maybe I'm wrong, I mean half of me is screaming, "it's discrimination!" But the other half is saying, "come on, it's a gay bar - let them have their space." I mean I'm sure a gazillion bars have official or unofficial rules to maintain their "theme," such as lesbian, gay, biker, punk, goth, etc.
My disinterest was NOT received well on another forum ("undermining back stabber", "idiot", etc.).
Kate
Wow. Apparently all they are saying is they only want passable people to be able to dress as their gender. Now, what I wonder is, if a lesbian came in there dressed in jeans and a tanktop, would THEY be kicked out?
Melissa
It sounds to me that the bar owner was using the dress code to prevent certain kinds of behavior, which perhaps in their mind is associated with people that dress in the proscribed manner. Kinda like using a hand grenade to scare away some pesky pigeons, in my opinion.
It is discrimination but over a behavior or set of behaviors that are under a person's conscious control so I'm not sure if it's unfair discrimination. Especially if the people in question were "causing problems" with their clientele.
I suspect the enforcement of this code will be the telling point so I would just wait and see.
hugs & smiles
helen
Since they said "gender appropriate" as opposed to "sex appropriate" I don't have a problem with it. My gender is female and I dress that way.
And as I'm sure they like paying customers, they won't give anyone a hard time without a better reason than how they're dressed.
My 2 cents.
Karen Lyn :icon_female:
Sounds like a few jerks were ruining things for the bunch and they had to take steps to avoid this and have a legal leg to stand on in case things got bad. While I hate to think that my passability is what allows me to be at a club or not, it is already going on. This place just seems to be more up front about it and not due to not liking those who may be a bit different but because trouble makers forced it upon them.
Without knowing the whole story, this one is a really tough call.
Quote from: Kiera on March 16, 2007, 06:47:56 PM
Melissa, I would think not.
Which was my point Kiera.
Quote from: Kate on March 16, 2007, 04:48:22 PM
You cannot have a dress code policy that is only good for some people and changes for others, it must be the same across the board.
They succinctly state that it applies to everyone, but then they are fine with a woman dressing in men's clothing.
Melissa
I think Helen's got it again. It's the enforcement that will tell what they really mean.
Gay bars are used as a dumping ground for everyone who doesn't fit the straight, gender-conforming norm. And that's not what gay bars are about. They're about giving a space to gay people to be gay. It's no more unfair of them to say, this isn't a trans/crossdresser space than it is for a straight bar to say that. In fact, I'd say it's more unfair for a straight bar to say it.
Just because a bar caters to gay people doesn't mean they cater to S/M, cross dressers, or any other different from the norm community. They deserve their space too.
Dennis
Here's my personal experience with the gay community. In my area, the trans and gay communities are tied fairly close together. I'm one of those bonds and by that I mean, one of the local gay bars recently added a transgendered category to their pride representatives (Mr. Ms. etc.) and I hold that title. In fact I was the first in the area. As a result I end up being active in the local community a lot and many of the gays and lesbians understand I am a woman. I'm also bi and they understand that means attracted to straight men and lesbians (or other bi women). Like I said, they realize I'm a woman and not a man that wears women's clothes. Some of it has been through me explaining it, but I think they can tell even just by my demeanor. Pretty much if a gay guy hits on me I let him know right off the bat that I'm not interested and if they get insistent (and they usually do) I end up getting angry at them. I even had 2 who was shocked when they realized my breasts were actually real and backed off a lot at that point. It will be nice when I have my surgery since I'll just be able to tell them I don't have a penis. Of course the last time they didn't bother me 1 bit because I guess I passed or maybe because I was wearing jeans or both.
So as I mentioned, I'm bi right now, so my involvement in the gay community will continue some and I'll keep on educating some of those men who don't get it at first.
Melissa
Quote from: Melissa on March 17, 2007, 10:02:06 AM
So as I mentioned, I'm bi right now, so my involvement in the gay community will continue some and I'll keep on educating some of those men who don't get it at first.
Good for you Melissa!!!!
QuoteThe previous location was having a problem with older "straight" guys dressing as women (without undergarments I might add) and causing problems with our Gay cliental.
I understand where they are coming from on this however. A few years ago, I was leaving a bar in Atlanta and sitting outside on the hood of a car was someone wearing a VERY short skirt and no underwear other than a pair of sheer pantyhose. The way they were sitting, everything and I mean EVERYTHING was visible down the leg of his pantyhose. (I won't dignify this person with a fem pronoun) Personally I found it quite disgusting. I would think that if someone dressed club appropriate and not like a $25 working girl on some street corner, they would not have a problem being admitted. And if they did, find another club or bar.
Bev
Tink,
What an exciting experience and a terrible one, all at the same time. They all knew you and did not recognize you? Well, done, my little faerie. But so sorry you had to go through the stares. How did BF react?
And I do agree with you that the gay community just doesn't really get it sometimes (nor do we always understand their concerns.) At the risk of vastly oversimplifying things, the gay community seems to want to live in a respected but admittedly "alternative" lifestyle. I've never wanted anything more than to fit in with society and not be seen as different from any other woman. That's why, for me, the flag waving just doesn't interest me.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on March 17, 2007, 12:04:50 PM
the gay community seems to want to live in a respected but admittedly "alternative" lifestyle. I've never wanted anything more than to fit in with society and not be seen as different from any other woman. That's why, for me, the flag waving just doesn't interest me.
Exaaaaaactly.
That's what I'm realizing more and more, and why I'm so frustrated when our critics suggest we're "pushing an agenda" or asking them to "accept diversity." The bitter irony is that we're not asking anyone to accept our differences, we're asking them to accept us as "one of them" in a way - the only real difference being the route we took to get there.
I think I realized that I've been selfishly hitching myself onto the fight for freedom of gender expression and even sexuality simply because it protects me right NOW, while I transition, while it *appears* as if I'm "gender variant" or expressing mannerisms and expressions incongruent with my sex.
But truth be told, it's not where I want to be, I don't *identify* with it - it's just a temporary phase I have to try and get through in my attempt to become boring, mundane and mainstream.
Kate
My two cents...
The owners obviously don't want their establishment to become a "den of inequity" where unseemly characters making a mockery of women are accepted. If I owned a public place I'd want to attract clientele that fits the image I have of the place and I'd discourage attire that is not within the image I want the place to convey.
I'm not much a fan of some drag queens because I feel they give us a bad name and mock women. Men showing up in nightwear with 5 o'clock shadows hurt our image. They are very obviously male. When main-streamers see them they think this is what a transvestite/transsexual is and they tend to lump real transwomen in with them. It's counteractive to all of us who venture out as normal women and the work we do to educate the public as to who we really are.
Bottom line: I see no problem with the dress code and if it were my place I'd do the same thing.
Julie
Drag queens were in the front lines at Stonewall in 1969, bravely fighting for all our rights, gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, transsexual, etc.
zythyra
Quote from: JulieMarieI'm not much a fan of some drag queens because I feel they give us a bad name and mock women.
I don't like the idea of drag queens representing us in anyway either for the same reasons you've stated.
I don't fight to be "one of them" because I never had a desire to be a clone. I fight to have the same rights that everyone else has in our society. Hopefully the education aspect that I do will help with tolerance and acceptance but right now I want to not have to fear for a job or housing. I may even want to marry down the line. I don't trust others to speak up for me so I have to do it myself.
However, in the end I know it is how much I may appear to be like one of the crowd that has brought about the general acceptance I have experienced. When I lectured last the two people who came up to me told me how good I looked right away and then started talking about other things.
As for DQs, the ones that I have met do it for entertainment. They play off of stereotypes in order to get a laugh. Most have been really friendly and presented as a gay male outside of the few times per month that they get all dolled up and have some fun.
As for some of the other stories. Yes, if someone is going in without underwear and flashing the patrons, they need to be given the big boot or even have charges pressed against them.
It's hard to say where I'd fall on this dress code position. There just isn't enough information to form a reasonable opinion. But it does sound like there were a couple of characters who were willing to ruin a good thing.
As for the gay/lesbian/ts thang.... I know that there are differences. They are clearly cut from our perspective. The public doesn't see it at all. In any case, I am so pleased that the common front of the LGBT represents us in fighting for equal rights. I think that generally, the gay community is one of our strongest allies. I would hesitate to do anything to antagonize them ;) We enjoy many fruits of their labor.
Cindi
Quote from: LostInTime on March 18, 2007, 08:54:25 PM
I don't fight to be "one of them" because I never had a desire to be a clone. I fight to have the same rights that everyone else has in our society. Hopefully the education aspect that I do will help with tolerance and acceptance but right now I want to not have to fear for a job or housing. I may even want to marry down the line. I don't trust others to speak up for me so I have to do it myself.
I could just hug you right now. :)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: LostInTime on March 18, 2007, 08:54:25 PM
As for DQs, the ones that I have met do it for entertainment. They play off of stereotypes in order to get a laugh. Most have been really friendly and presented as a gay male outside of the few times per month that they get all dolled up and have some fun.
I personally have no problems with dragqueens. Heck, just yesterday I was helping one with her makeup a bit because she needed a woman's touch. ;D
Melissa
If they don't want to be a T bar then they don't have to be, imagine if a bunch of erotically dressed crossdressers invaded any other establishment, they'd get kicked out.
In my personal experience I used to avoid going to gay bars with friends as people would read me and I really just did not enjoy it, no fuss was caused just the knowing glance or the over emphasized female address by the bar staff, it bothered me, so I stopped going until I had 100% competence in my passing and now if the group I'm out with head that way I'll go too and not make some lame excuse, it's not like I frequent them by preference, just I have a fair few LGBT friends.
I go to a gay club in a city near where I live. For one, they don't care that someone with estrogen likes to hang out. I get great treatment from the bartenders (who know I am T) and I have only been read on occasion. Most of the guys are pretty nice and I have found only some of the older ones have a problem with T people popping in. Some nights I am the only gal there and on others, there's a good mix between gay, straight, bi, TS, and CD.
There is another gay club where the gay leather crowd likes to hang. Since I am in the leather community I called them up once and asked when they were open and when a good time to get there would be. the guy on the other end just kept saying, "Ma'am, you probably won't like it here." So I spent my money elsewhere. Heck I can hang out with leather folks just about anytime.
Hmm another reason not to go to bars now. :( Oh well...
-- Bridget
Quote from: Julie Marie on March 17, 2007, 04:44:37 PMI'm not much a fan of some drag queens because I feel they give us a bad name and mock women. Men showing up in nightwear with 5 o'clock shadows hurt our image. They are very obviously male. When main-streamers see them they think this is what a transvestite/transsexual is and they tend to lump real transwomen in with them. It's counteractive to all of us who venture out as normal women and the work we do to educate the public as to who we really are.
It certainly sounds convenient to dismiss people based on the ignorance of "main-streamers."
Presumably the rule is being applied in a relatively "common-sense" fashion (considering only the two trouble-makers have been victims of it), but it's still nonsense. In the first place, there is no such thing as "gender appropriate." If there was, though, it seems to me that the
drag queens themselves would be pretty high on the list of people who
don't meet the criteria. (Duhhh?)
You are a private establishment; you retain the right to deny anyone, for any reason, end of story. You do not need to invent generalized policies which on the surface would seem to affect many more people than necessary just to rid yourself of two jerks. Tell them to stay the hell away from your bar. Problem solved.
Most dragqueens though are GAY MALES presenting as female for a night... what this establishment seems to want to stop are the STRAIGHT MALES from comeing in wearing erotic womens clothes, being obnoxious, and not presenting as female, but male in erotic womens clothing.....
On the other subject, I really dont like the local GLB sceen much... they dont really have any sort of nitch for the TS person, infact I feel either unwelcome or threatened when I go to some of the GLB bars down town... Its really wierd... Also my straight friends have had a much easyer time understanding and accepting me than the gay and lesbian ones have... I mean seriously, I still have some fighting me on it...
the dress code thing sounds terribly boring, and even though the intentions might not have been discriminatory, technically it is. exactly who defines "gender appropriate"? couldn't that same person just determine "appropriate"?
back in the "olden" days, transsexual women were some of the most welcome patrons of all the nightclubs in NYC. (studio, cellar, garage, limelight, gg's)of course, we were often referred to innappropriately as "drag queens" or just "queens" or "princess", but we never had to wait to get into the hottest places. we were always waved in while all of the "straight" and "gay" men and women were left standing in line and waiting for that purple rope to be lifted. and who were those who were eventually turned away at the door? people who wouldn't fit in, and wouldn't add to the clubs ambience. they were either boringly straight and conservative or overly sexually explicit - like leather boys with their bum hanging out the back of leather chaps, crossdressers who were obviously men in dresses, or cheap whores (transsexual or gg) who wore just weren't wearing enough. of course, these clubs were amazingly successful, and once inside things could get downright bacchanalian. but that was just before aids - sigh.
as far as all of you that want to fit into the mainstream, god bless. go forth and be mundane. i am no youngster and i suppose i fit into that category as well. i no longer desire to be "fabulous" - that is, after all, something that young women are obsessed with. on the other hand, don't forget your "roots". any gender discrimination is aimed directly at our community, and we are a tiny minority. we cannot afford to ignore it.
we don't have the rights of mainstream america. no matter how well we assimilate or pass, pre-op or post-op, you are one "out" from being fired, having your marriage declared invalid, being denied the right to marry, or having your husbands ss benefits removed. as a transsexual, you have no technical right to exist in this nation. there are NO federal guidelines in writing, and no law, allowing for you to alter the gender marker on a federal identification document. there are "policies", but there is no law protecting your rights. these "policies" are passed by word of mouth, like instructions from a "mafioso" capo to a soldier. your rights change from one state to the next. there is no federal inclusion in "hate crime" laws. you are not being represented or protected. we are presently "undefined". whatever rights you enjoy can be removed with impunity. recently, the right to apply for valid immigration status as a married partner was "removed" for anyone who is transsexual. it absolutely does not matter if you are "legally" married in a state or a nation that recognizes your rights. if you are transsexual, your application will be denied.
my conclusion? i am personally offended by any reference to a "gender appropriate" notice at an establishment. it is an attack on our community, intentional or not. the word appropriate would suffice, and would benefit the club as well as the clientelle. after all, they do have a bouncer standing by the entrance and he can easily describe what appropriate means to anyone who wants to enter. no brainer.
i dont like this bashing of gay and lesbians as anti trans....
im the trans wellfare rep for my universities lgbt organisation, and thier all very understanding to the extent that my sexual orientation isnt considered part of this. but none of them have any sort of discrimination, and i feel if a bar wants to maintain a certain clientelle, its its business...
if they wish only people who identify female, to dress as female i can see thier point,
some random straight guy walking in in a babydoll with beer gut and trucker hat mouthing off at gay men, which is the gist i got from the letter, i can understand them not wanting...
lesbian fashion doesnt constitute chrossdressing, as women socially can, lets face it, this isnt a social norm yet, and we need to allow people to defend those who identify female to dress as first or id as men to be men), THEN once acepted move on to other areas,, we cannont simply lump this on society and demand acceptance, its not that easy. we need to look more tactically, and more politically and deal with every little gain we can, scrabble for ground.... this isnt blitzkreg, its trenchwarfare...
Quote from: Rachael on April 26, 2007, 04:56:38 PM
this isnt blitzkreg, its trenchwarfare...
If we want to talk in term of warfare strategy and tactics we must first learn from history. :eusa_hand:
-Trench-warfare :eusa_wall: with each side entrenched in a static position bombarding each other and attacking in wastefull frontal assaults until one side is totally exhausted has been well discredited after World-war I.
-Blitzkrieg :icon_pistoles: as its name implies and as proved by the outcome of World-war II and presently by the situation in Iraq is not sustainable in the long run.
-Nowadays, as shown by any victorious liberation movements all over the world the best tactic seems to be Guerilla-warfare! :icon_suspicious: Blend in, infiltrate, strike, confuse and most importantly gather a popular support base. :icon_yes:
But these are only the wild rantings of an old Warrior Queen. :icon_peace:
HLLL&R
Maebh
i dont know about you, but im happy with being a sleeper agent.... i wont be striking or confuseing anyone thanks...
hearts and minds game however, is the way forward, be the british in iraq, not the yanks, lets be a friendly face, humans, not robots with guns.... (for guns read boobs)
Jeri,
I love the way you think! I wish I could have met you back then! What a great time we could have had!
Cindi
Quote from: Kate on March 17, 2007, 02:08:39 PMI think I realized that I've been selfishly hitching myself onto the fight for freedom of gender expression and even sexuality simply because it protects me right NOW, while I transition, while it *appears* as if I'm "gender variant" or expressing mannerisms and expressions incongruent with my sex.
But truth be told, it's not where I want to be, I don't *identify* with it - it's just a temporary phase I have to try and get through in my attempt to become boring, mundane and mainstream.
I totally relate to this, Kate. I'm coming to realize I'd been taking the same tack regarding androgyny and genderqueer-- and the reason was that I didn't pass well as a woman at first, therefore I was seen as de facto genderqueer, like it or not. So I rallied to cries of "smash the gender binary" etc.
Now that I've begun to pass adequately, and can see my future as a woman from here-- I have to admit what I really care about is just being a woman. I will continue to be an activist for LGBT equal rights, not because I feel anything in common with transgender people, but simply because it's the right thing to do. My temporary, involuntary genderqueer status has had the positive effect of opening my eyes to discrimination, and I'm not going to retire from that fight. However, I will fight on as just another woman. I tend to dress rather conservatively for a woman and I'm happy that way.
The only time I went to a drag bar was during the Atlanta conference of an LGBT group I belong to, and some gay friends of mine invited me to go along. Why not, try anything once. I was not impressed by the show or the scene, but then I don't drink and I dislike bars in general. They're boring. I very much enjoyed my visit to a lovely lesbian teahouse in Atlanta, though. I thrive on female energy, while male energy leaves me feeling excluded. I'm just all about being a woman and that's it.
Quote from: Hypatia on August 26, 2007, 11:36:02 AM
Now that I've begun to pass adequately, and can see my future as a woman from here-- I have to admit what I really care about is just being a woman. I will continue to be an activist for LGBT equal rights, not because I feel anything in common with transgender people, but simply because it's the right thing to do. My temporary, involuntary genderqueer status has had the positive effect of opening my eyes to discrimination, and I'm not going to retire from that fight. However, I will fight on as just another woman.
Go raibh míle maith agat Thanks a million. Now that you have resolved your gender identity, now that you have reach the goal of being who you wanted to be, you could easily settle cosily in your life as an accepted woman and forget about the ones still strugling with these issues. Your empathy, your experience and commitment will always be a great asset to all fighting against discriminations.
Love, Light and Respect.
Maebh
Níl a bhuiochas ort, a rún.
(You're welcome, dear.)
Quote from: Hypatia on August 26, 2007, 01:09:16 PM
Níl a bhuiochas ort, a rún.
(You're welcome, dear.)
Gurb amhlaidh duit The same to you.
LLL&R
Maebh