I've seen this floating around more and more lately, and the idea has really gotten me thinking.
If, as I personally believe (and I think many others do), being born transgender is a physical defect in which the brain does not match the body, then could we (should we) not be included in the intersex category? While our circumstances are very different, I don't think that should separate us entirely from a group of people who's identity problems lie in physical characteristics impairing their ability to present or be categorised as one gender or the other.
On a more personal level, I feel a lot more comfortable identifying as an intersex person than a transgender one (read: I have a physical birth defect, not a mental one). I also feel like explaining it to people this way might eliminate a lot of that ill-informed 'just because you think you're a man/woman, doesn't mean you are' backlash we seem to get from the public.
I don't know though, so I thought I'd present this for discussion. What do you guys think? Could transgender people be considered to have a specific kind of intersex condition? And do you feel more comfortable thinking of yourself as transgender, or as intersex?
P.S. Will post the same in the ladies' section of the forum to see what they think as well. :)
Oh this is tricky for me to answer. I would very much like for the broader medical community (and society in general) to recognise transsexualism as a physiological/medical condition vs. a "mental health issue". In ways I feel that it is an intersex condition, but feel upset when I hear some intersex people saying we have no grounds being lumped into "their category" as it "trivialises" their conditions. So I really don't know exactly what I think :/
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 03:04:51 AM
In ways I feel that it is an intersex condition, but feel upset when I hear some intersex people saying we have no grounds being lumped into "their category" as it "trivialises" their conditions. So I really don't know exactly what I think :/
I understand what you're saying, but at the same time I really don't
understand it. How does a transgender person's condition 'trivialise' an intersex person's condition, when the intersex category itself encompasses so many unique physical characteristics? An intersex person can seem perfectly cisgendered, but have an X or a Y chromosome where there shouldn't be one, cliteromegaly, or a non-functional womb, etc etc.
I'm not saying we are the same as every intersex person, or that we face the same trials or circumstances that they do, but I do believe that our individual conditions may all be a part of the same root family.
In my opinion, yeah, transsexualism is just another intersex condition.
I belive being transexual are about gender-identity.
yeah maybe you could be born with a male brain and a female body so you would be kinda intersex, but if you still identify female then it wouldnt make much of a change.
also I guess it would be a bit strange to start jugding brain and genders, they dont have enough knowlegde on those points yet to know exactly.
I don't personally hold the view that transfolk somehow "trivialise" so-called "true" intersex people's conditions, Bane. It's just something that I have heard some intersex people say. I don't know how they justify this.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 05:53:52 AM
I don't personally hold the view that transfolk somehow "trivialise" so-called "true" intersex people's conditions, Bane. It's just something that I have heard some intersex people say. I don't know how they justify this.
Hahaha, yeah I know mate! :P
What do you think of this? http://shb-info.org/hbs.html (http://shb-info.org/hbs.html)
http://www.changelingaspects.com/Articles/Harry_Benjamins_Syndrome.htm (http://www.changelingaspects.com/Articles/Harry_Benjamins_Syndrome.htm)
Amazing! I just can't understand why this information, or view of our condition, is so hard to find! I've been looking up trans stuff on the net for years, looking for anything I could find about us, and I've never seen this before.
Thanks so much Kreuzfidel!
Cool beans! I just came across that the other day - your post reminded me. I quite like the way it sounds and it makes sense. I wish it would get more attention, too. Maybe one day...
Yeah that's how I view it, basically. I see it as a physical deformity and nothing more. Definitely not an identity; I am not my condition. I am not a "transman", "FTM" or "a transsexual" any more than someone with cancer is "a carcinoma".
Look up "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." There's a group of people who have that same idea, but don't identify as transgender or as transsexuals. I don't think of it as an intersex condition because I feel that would be appropriating intersex, and they face a variety of different obstacles.
Quote from: Nygeel on January 16, 2012, 08:51:33 AM
Look up "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." There's a group of people who have that same idea, but don't identify as transgender or as transsexuals.
Kreuzfidel linked to the Harry Benjamin Syndrome site earlier. I have to say the more I read about it the more I believe it to be correct, not that I didn't already think being transsexual was an intersex condition. :P
We're just now starting to see proof that shows that this could be a condition caused by genes and/or hormonal imbalances before birth:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030111005.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030111005.htm)
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/sex-change-trigger-gene-found/story-fn6bfm6w-1225964752675 (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/sex-change-trigger-gene-found/story-fn6bfm6w-1225964752675)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024)
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14424-transsexuality-gene-boosts-male-hormones.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news1_head_dn14424 (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14424-transsexuality-gene-boosts-male-hormones.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news1_head_dn14424)
Which would definitely make this a biological condition, not a psychiatric one, and legally that would make us intersex.
Quote from: Nygeel on January 16, 2012, 08:51:33 AM
I don't think of it as an intersex condition because I feel that would be appropriating intersex, and they face a variety of different obstacles.
I really don't understand this though. I am aware that we are facing very different circumstances to intersex people, and I could understand an intersex person being angry if we tried to equate our experience with theirs, but that's not what I'm puting forward at all. And if anything, the meshing of the T and the I might help our two minorities to get things done. :)
Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 02:24:44 AM
I've seen this floating around more and more lately, and the idea has really gotten me thinking.
If, as I personally believe (and I think many others do), being born transgender is a physical defect in which the brain does not match the body, then could we (should we) not be included in the intersex category? While our circumstances are very different, I don't think that should separate us entirely from a group of people who's identity problems lie in physical characteristics impairing their ability to present or be categorised as one gender or the other.
On a more personal level, I feel a lot more comfortable identifying as an intersex person than a transgender one (read: I have a physical birth defect, not a mental one). I also feel like explaining it to people this way might eliminate a lot of that ill-informed 'just because you think you're a man/woman, doesn't mean you are' backlash we seem to get from the public.
I don't know though, so I thought I'd present this for discussion. What do you guys think? Could transgender people be considered to have a specific kind of intersex condition? And do you feel more comfortable thinking of yourself as transgender, or as intersex?
P.S. Will post the same in the ladies' section of the forum to see what they think as well. :)
Funny, I was thinking about this very topic just yesterday.
My opinion, is that Born GID should indeed be included as a Intersex Condition, Not the least, because many HBS-transsexuals do also find themselves to actually have various Intersex Conditions and not seldomly the Klinefelders Condition.
However... As not all transitioners are so called HBS-transsexuals or born transsexuals, then this label could only be applied for a certain type of Transgendersim or Transsexualism, as far from anyone that transitions does it because the person already have a crossgendered Brain, but because they rather are attracted to the idea of
living like the desired Sex than already being that Sex, so to speak.
So, as I said, this label could hence not be used as an Umbrella Label for ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism, but only for a certain type of Trans, as there would still be transitioners that transitions only because they wish to
possess a body of the Opposite Sex, rather than because they are born transsexuals.
Quote from: Bishounen on January 16, 2012, 09:31:48 AM
So, as I said, this label could hence not be used as an Umbrella Label for ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism, but only for a certain type of Trans, as there would still be transitioners that transitions only because they wish to possess a body of the Opposite Sex, rather than because they are born transsexuals.
Absolutely! The HBS site talks about how HBS sufferers are only those who would have been described by the old terminology as 'True Transsexuals'. Of course there are still people in between the two genders, or who wish to change or present themselves as a different gender for other reasons, and these people would not be considered intersex.
My mind has been blown by this, and I feel awesome! I know it's silly to say, but by looking at all of this information I feel justified. :P I do not
want to have to identify as 'transsexual', I am just a man who was born a little skewed.
Personally, I would not group the two together as intertwined terms. I understand your line of thinking and your logic behind it, but intersex is a condition where one genetically shares both attributes of male and female gender or an ambiguous form of both genders.
The verdict is still out whether or not transgender is a pure physical issue.
Intersex, it is a clear cut answer. You'll know after a few medical examinations. Plus, I have a feeling that many transgender people wants to be labeled intersex because the word and condition of "intersex" isn't that much of a taboo when compared to "transsexual."
I am intersex and yes, in my opinion the differences are huge between intersex and transgender. Plus, many intersex people could be offended if you grouped them with transsexuals.
Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
Absolutely! The HBS site talks about how HBS sufferers are only those who would have been described by the old terminology as 'True Transsexuals'. Of course there are still people in between the two genders, or who wish to change or present themselves as a different gender for other reasons, and these people would not be considered intersex.
My mind has been blown by this, and I feel awesome! I know it's silly to say, but by looking at all of this information I feel justified. :P I do not want to have to identify as 'transsexual', I am just a man who was born a little skewed.
Lol You do not sound silly at all.:P In fact, I know exactly what you mean and the fact that there are more and more evidence coming out that point to that, atleast one type of GID, is withborn, it provides harder and harder blows in the face of those that want to make it out as being a mere choise, or even worse, a mental disease.
Speaking of it, and if you have not already seen it, I think the following article would interest you even further: http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0 (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0)
Quote from: Annah on January 16, 2012, 09:40:08 AM
but intersex is a condition where one genetically shares both attributes of male and female gender or an ambiguous form of both genders.
Wouldn't having a male brain and a female body be one who genetically shares both attributes of male and female? See this as one person having a distinctly male organ, and other distinctly female organs; the fact that the organ in question is the brain is irrelevant.
Quote from: Annah on January 16, 2012, 09:40:08 AM
Plus, I have a feeling that many transgender people wants to be labeled intersex because the word and condition of "intersex" isn't that much of a taboo when compared to "transsexual."
This is absolutely true. I
know I want to distance myself from that stigma. But does my wish in any way invalidate the circumstances of my condition?
Quote from: Annah on January 16, 2012, 09:40:08 AM
I am intersex and yes, in my opinion the differences are huge between intersex and transgender. Plus, many intersex people could be offended if you grouped them with transsexuals.
The differences between melanoma and prostate cancer are huge, but that doesn't mean they aren't both cancer. I really don't mean to offend by any of this, and I respect your opinion on this matter, but would you mind explaining why our being grouped together might make intersex people offended?
I guess I would be annoyed and angry if someone bunched me in with sociopaths, but I propose the integration of trans people into the intersex community, not the other way around. Doing so would eliminate the unfortunate stigma we carry... so I'm afraid I don't quite understand the reluctance or anger. :(
My gender identity is right for my brain. I don't believe gender is just a social thing it's how your brain is wired. It's my brain and body that don't match, yeah that's a physical problem, but it's not my junk and plumbing so I don't think it counts as intersex. The only way I would see it as a mental problem is if your brain is female, or something non binary, and your gender identity is something else.
I agree with Annah. I don't identify as intersex because (as far as I know) I'm genetically XX, my genitals were not ambiguous at birth, and my gonads are ovaries. It is only after transitioning that my genitals are "ambiguous" due to testosterone; my genetics and gonads remain the same (although those may be atrophied). Being intersex is typically seen as a congenital condition (condition existing at birth). While I do believe that being transgender is medical condition, I think it would be incorrect to call it intersex for those reasons.
There are so many different intersex conditions though, some of which are hormonal issues where the person was born with completely "normal" genitalia and the condition was not caught at birth. I still view transsexualism as an intersex condition because there is evidence that hormones in the womb cause the mismatched gender and sex.
Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 09:53:11 AM
Wouldn't having a male brain and a female body be one who genetically shares both attributes of male and female? See this as one person having a distinctly male organ, and other distinctly female organs; the fact that the organ in question is the brain is irrelevant.
This is absolutely true. I know I want to distance myself from that stigma. But does my wish in any way invalidate the circumstances of my condition?
The differences between melanoma and prostate cancer are huge, but that doesn't mean they aren't both cancer. I really don't mean to offend by any of this, and I respect your opinion on this matter, but would you mind explaining why our being grouped together might make intersex people offended?
I guess I would be annoyed and angry if someone bunched me in with sociopaths, but I propose the integration of trans people into the intersex community, not the other way around. Doing so would eliminate the unfortunate stigma we carry... so I'm afraid I don't quite understand the reluctance or anger. :(
I really understand how you feel but the brain is a very complex issue. Right now, the medical criteria terms for intersex is a variation of cross gender genetics and other sexual reproduction ambiguity.
If you wish to know if you are intersex you can request an examination.
Also, if you desire to make transsexuals recognized as intersex I would encourage you to contact medical experts in this arena and start a dialogue with them :)
I think the big push back from the intersex community comes from the overall feeling that the LGBT community likes to co-opt other things.
Also, the visible (or testable) component to intersex does put it in a different category and since most psychologists say transsexualism is still mental condition that doesn't work well. However, I do believe that there are definite situations where a fetus is exposed to high levels of hormones or other things and changes in the brain (and possibly the body) can occur. It happened in my case.
There's also a lot more intersex variation that most sources let on. It's in the hundreds really but most people just think it's chromosomal, a small set of conditions like CAH or true hermaphrodite. But there's tons of different variations on genitalia that can be classed as intersex too where you don't necessarily have major internal things wrong.
So really, I think it's the psychologists and doctors that are preventing transsexualism to be classed as intersex but my own personal belief is that in some cases it certainly could.
Hmmm... you bring up an interesting point. I agree that it would be easier if people saw us as having a real physical condition, however, physical conditions are generally limited to bodies, and not deformities of the brain.
I do, however, think that we should not be classified as a mental health problem, because I don't think that's the case. Normally those types of conditions can be treated or cured.
Just to throw this in, what do you think the significance of approximately 58% of FTMs in one study alone having pre-HRT polycistic ovarian syndrome is?
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
Just to throw this in, what do you think the significance of approximately 58% of FTMs in one study alone having pre-HRT polycistic ovarian syndrome is?
I would call it proof that there are physical aspects of our bodies that are causing our trans conditions. I doubt they will ever find one specific thing that can explain it, because the likelihood of someone being trans would rely on a lot of different affecting factors. This could be just one of the many things that affect our gender identity.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
Just to throw this in, what do you think the significance of approximately 58% of FTMs in one study alone having pre-HRT polycistic ovarian syndrome is?
Since there are plenty of "normal" females with this condition that kind of doesn't let that theory hold much water.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 17, 2012, 12:16:47 AM
Since there are plenty of "normal" females with this condition that kind of doesn't let that theory hold much water.
Since the percentage of 'normal' females who have the condition is between 5%-10%, I'd say it holds a lot of water. :P
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 16, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
Just to throw this in, what do you think the significance of approximately 58% of FTMs in one study alone having pre-HRT polycistic ovarian syndrome is?
The simple fact that 1 in 10 identifying genetic females also suffer from polycistic ovarian syndrome (my ex included) is not evidence that transsexuals are intersex.
Quote from: Bane on January 17, 2012, 12:21:05 AM
Since the percentage of 'normal' females who have the condition is between 5%-10%, I'd say it holds a lot of water. :P
it's actually 10% but it still does not define that person as intersex.
The definition of intersex is "The abnormal condition of being intermediate between male and female." Polycistic ovarian syndrome isn't a sign that you are a biological/physical cross between male and female.
Raven Kaldera, who is an intersex liaison for a non profit group (and also transgender) wrote an excellant editorial on the subject: http://www.ravenkaldera.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html (http://www.ravenkaldera.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html)
I'm still convinced that transsexuals want to use the term "intersex" because that word is more palatable and doesn't carry the weight of social stigmas that "transsexual" does.
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:26:08 AM
The simple fact that 1 in 10 identifying genetic females also suffer from polycistic ovarian syndrome (my ex included) is not evidence that transsexuals are intersex.
I didn't say it was. What it
is evidence of is an endocrine disorder that is five times more common in trans guys than in women.
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:29:51 AM
I'm still convinced that transsexuals want to use the term "intersex" because that word is more palatable and doesn't carry the weight of social stigmas that "transsexual" does.
Absolutely, I want to get as far away from that stigma as I can. But how does that wish in any way affect my actual condition?
Quote from: Bane on January 17, 2012, 12:34:12 AM
Absolutely, I want to get as far away from that stigma as I can. But how does that wish in any way affect my actual condition?
Because I think it would be more worthwhile to turn the stigma around and show the world that transgenders are not freaks rather than hiding behind another condition, which in no way shape or form, classifies your condition.
If you don't have sexual reproduction ambiguity or "abnormal" sex chromosome pattern then you aren't intersex.
I don't know...call it tough love or whatever, but I find it in poor taste to try to get society to accept you as intersex when you are not.
I am intersex. Transsexualism is a freakin walk in the park compared to the physical struggles I went through growing up (and being transsexual is hard too...i changed genders...i know the hell but its miniscule compared to the physical conditions I suffered from being intersex). I have lost count the many times I was rushed to the hospital because my hormones went out of whack every other year, developing co morbids that were extremely painful, having breasts in junior high school (not the man boobs....real breasts), not dating in high school for fear of sexual discovery.
When a transgender can say "oh im intersex" without even really knowing the hell some of us intersex people went through (because they don't like the word transsexual) is insulting; not to mention the attempt to romanticize the intersex condition.
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:46:00 AM
When a transgender can say "oh im intersex" without even really knowing the hell some of us intersex people went through (because they don't like the word transsexual) is insulting; not to mention the attempt to romanticize the intersex condition.
I understand exactly what you're saying, and I respect that you've had a very hard time of it, and there's no way that I could understand all of the things you've had to go through. But by this same logic would you deny that intersex people who go years without discovering their condition, because the type they have barely impacts their life, are any less a part of the intersex family than you, simply because they have a different form of the condition?
I thought that some intersex conditions, namely CAH, had nothing to do with the sex chromosomes and did not always result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 17, 2012, 01:53:34 AM
I thought that some intersex conditions, namely CAH, had nothing to do with the sex chromosomes and did not always result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility.
You're right, and this is something I've been trying to point out in both threads for a while now, and that everyone keeps ignoring...:P
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 17, 2012, 01:53:34 AM
I thought that some intersex conditions, namely CAH, had nothing to do with the sex chromosomes and did not always result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility.
But it's still a congenital, chromosomal abnormality. It has to do with hormones, but it's due to a genetic mutation. Who said that all intersex conditions relate to sex chromosomes and result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility?
According to the "Clinical Guidelines for the Management of Disorder of Sex Development in Childhood" (from the Intersex Society of North America):
QuoteDisorders of sex development (DSD) are defined as conditions involving the following elements.
* congenital development of ambiguous genitalia (e.g., 46,XX virilizing congenital adrenal hyperplasia; clitoromegaly; micropenis)
* congenital disjunction of internal and external sex anatomy (e.g., Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome; 5-alpha reductase deficiency)
* incomplete development of sex anatomy (e.g., vaginal agenesis; gonadal agenesis)
* sex chromosome anomalies (e.g., Turner Syndrome; Klinefelter Syndrome; sex chromosome mosaicism)
* disorders of gonadal development (e.g., ovotestes)
DSD consequently include anomalies of the sex chromosomes, the gonads, the reproductive ducts, and the genitalia. Note that the term "intersex" is avoided here because of its imprecision.
http://www.accordalliance.org/dsdguidelines/htdocs/clinical/index.html (http://www.accordalliance.org/dsdguidelines/htdocs/clinical/index.html)
i like to think of it as an intersext condition of the brain as there has been research done. the findings are that the grey matter of an ftm's brain develops like that of a man's brain and vice versa for mtfs. to bad the grey matter i am speaking of can not be imaged with current technology so the only 'transexual test' can be done when you are dead... sucks for us.
If being trans is due to physical differences in the brain that resemble more closely those found in people assigned a different sex at birth (as is becoming more and more likely from a scientific perspective), then the only way it can be considered not an intersex condition is if we deny that the brain is part of the body.
And if people with currently classified intersex conditions wish to maintain a distance from trans folks, then there should be a second umbrella term under which both groups (those of us whose differences are found primarily in the brain and those whose differences are usually more physically overt) are categorized.
Quote from: Adio on January 17, 2012, 02:47:35 AMWho said that all intersex conditions relate to sex chromosomes and result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility?
Actually, Annah did.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 17, 2012, 06:10:11 AM
Actually, Annah did.
Not trying to start a fight, but she did not say "all" (or always, etc.) intersex conditions cause infertility. Actually, the first mention of it was by you. I can't fully comment on the other part of your statement because she used a couple different wordings in her definition of intersex. However, none used an absolute that I can find.
Quote from: Adio on January 17, 2012, 02:08:48 PM
Not trying to start a fight, but she did not say "all" (or always, etc.) intersex conditions cause infertility. Actually, the first mention of it was by you. I can't fully comment on the other part of your statement because she used a couple different wordings in her definition of intersex. However, none used an absolute that I can find.
To be specific, the argument in question is not 'all result in infertility', but 'all result in ambiguous genitalia or infertility', which are two very different things. :)
Here:
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:52:41 AMIf you don't have sexual reproduction ambiguity or "abnormal" sex chromosome pattern then you aren't intersex.
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:52:41 AMThat's not how the diagnosis of intersex works. It's the sexual ambiguity of the sexual reproduction organs (downstairs...not in your head) and or the abnormal sexual traits of the chromosomes.
These were posted in the other thread Adio, which would explain why you couldn't find them. :)
Quote from: Bane on January 17, 2012, 12:21:05 AM
Since the percentage of 'normal' females who have the condition is between 5%-10%, I'd say it holds a lot of water. :P
And how much of the population do FTM transsexuals make up? Count that up and get back to me on whether 10% of the "normals" makes a difference.
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:46:00 AM
I don't know...call it tough love or whatever, but I find it in poor taste to try to get society to accept you as intersex when you are not.
To this, I'd just like to comment that I've spent my whole life HIDING facts about my body not being "normal". Trying to get "society" to "accept" me is pretty low on my life's to-do list. That might be someone else's crusade but it's not mine. Society is made up of majority rule anyway. But it's none of society's business what's really in my pants either.
Now if by "society" you really mean other intersex people, well that's a whole different statement. And this is part of what I touched on with an earlier comment I made.
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:46:00 AM
I am intersex. Transsexualism is a freakin walk in the park compared to the physical struggles I went through growing up (and being transsexual is hard too...i changed genders...i know the hell but its miniscule compared to the physical conditions I suffered from being intersex). I have lost count the many times I was rushed to the hospital because my hormones went out of whack every other year, developing co morbids that were extremely painful, having breasts in junior high school (not the man boobs....real breasts), not dating in high school for fear of sexual discovery.
When a transgender can say "oh im intersex" without even really knowing the hell some of us intersex people went through (because they don't like the word transsexual) is insulting; not to mention the attempt to romanticize the intersex condition.
Saying transsexualism is a, "walk in the park" I think it a pretty flippant attitude to take. It's not a walk in the park if you're a young person who doesn't really understand what's going on and has been close to suicidally depressed a lot in their life because their brain doesn't seem to match their body. Maybe in your own case your physical issues outweighed also being trans? But to call others trials and tribulations trivial in light of your own is not a great statement to make. One might even call it in poor taste.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 17, 2012, 06:27:06 PM
And how much of the population do FTM transsexuals make up? Count that up and get back to me on whether 10% of the "normals" makes a difference.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here, could you please clarify? :)
Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 03:35:24 AM
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here, could you please clarify? :)
I mean that FTM individuals are a very, very small percentage of the regular population and that non trans females who have PCOS can't really be compared because the numbers are a lot greater. If it were as you were stating, then a lot more "regular" females who had PCOS would be trans. You see what I'm saying?
Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 18, 2012, 03:54:50 AM
I mean that FTM individuals are a very, very small percentage of the regular population and that non trans females who have PCOS can't really be compared because the numbers are a lot greater. If it were as you were stating, then a lot more "regular" females who had PCOS would be trans. You see what I'm saying?
I think I understand now, yes. :)
However, I wasn't pointing to it as strong proof, or even as an important cause. If we are thinking of our condition as a physical one, then it is likely caused by a plethora of conditions that
when combined result in someone being born trans; not one or two conditions on their own. The fact that our population is a lot smaller than the general population doesn't affect the validity of the statistics; if science worked that way no one would be diagnosed with anything.
Here's one way to look at it:
Many, many people smoke cigarettes, but only ~.003% of smokers develop lung cancer. However, 90% of cases of lung cancer are found in people who smoke.
Similarly, 10% of female bodied people have PCOS, but only ~.002% are trans. However, 60% of trans guys have PCOS symptoms.
While the link between smoking and lung cancer is stronger and more established, there is enough correlation to suggest a link.
ETA: As far as I am aware, no one argues anymore that smoking does not cause cancer, even though most people who smoke don't get it.