Hi ladies! I'm just popping in to bring up the same subject in your section of the forum as I did in the guys' section, to get as many different opinions on this topic as I can. :)
I've seen this floating around more and more lately, and the idea has really gotten me thinking.
If, as I personally believe (and I think many others do), being born transgender is a physical defect in which the brain does not match the body, then could we (should we) not be included in the intersex category? While our circumstances are very different, I don't think that should separate us entirely from a group of people who's identity problems lie in physical characteristics impairing their ability to present or be categorised as one gender or the other.
On a more personal level, I feel a lot more comfortable identifying as an intersex person than a transgender one (read: I have a physical birth defect, not a mental one). I also feel like explaining it to people this way might eliminate a lot of that ill-informed 'just because you think you're a man/woman, doesn't mean you are' backlash we seem to get from the public.
I don't know though, so I thought I'd present this for discussion. What do you girls think? Could transgender people be considered to have a specific kind of intersex condition? And do you feel more comfortable thinking of yourself as transgender, or as intersex? :)
I have a couple of friends who are IS, one of whom is also TG, and they consider there is a difference. One is external the other internal, so the issues faced are similar but not the same.
Karen.
What he seems to be saying is that it IS an external problem because our bodies are what's wrong with us, not our minds
Quote from: justmeinoz on January 16, 2012, 02:33:31 AM
I have a couple of friends who are IS, one of whom is also TG, and they consider there is a difference. One is external the other internal, so the issues faced are similar but not the same.
Karen.
Very true, however the biggest sex organ in the human body is the brain. So in a way I think that it could be considered that. We're just luckier in that we don't get mutilated when we are born. We get to choose later on in life.
Quote from: EmilyElizabeth on January 16, 2012, 02:35:29 AM
What he seems to be saying is that it IS an external problem because our bodies are what's wrong with us, not our minds
This is exactly what I was getting at, yes. :)
Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 02:28:19 AM
On a more personal level, I feel a lot more comfortable identifying as an intersex person than a transgender one (read: I have a physical birth defect, not a mental one).
((Don't take this as me being offended, I'm totally not :P))
I don't see my being more feminine or liking feminine aesthetics in myself as a "defect". Sure, I'm not like "most guys" (and perhaps have more in common with women)... but I see nothing wrong with diversity.
Really, I see being trans as rather beautiful...
Quote from: Rabbit on January 16, 2012, 03:55:28 AM
I don't see my being more feminine or liking feminine aesthetics in myself as a "defect".
I do apologise, I understand in hindsight that the word 'defect' can be taken in a bad way, when perhaps some people don't see their own condition or circumstances to be a bad thing. For me personally though, I do have a physical defect, or perhaps the word 'abnormality' would have served me better in this sentence? :) I would much rather my condition be viewed as such, than to have people believe I am mentally handicapped, or that my mind is otherwise affected by a disorder.
Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 04:02:01 AM
For me personally though, I do have a physical defect, or perhaps the word 'abnormality' would have served me better in this sentence? :)
As my character sculpting instructor likes to say "people are freaks".
His job is to study people and model characters. He spends a great deal of time looking at people and the extremely wide variations (ever look at peoples ears? there is a huge range of different types! In something so simple!). Noses, jaws, hips, waists, chests....even basic proportions!
A lot of times (in comercial media) you need to learn to "standardize" things to make them "look normal" (even when working from a photo reference and an actual person!).
That is a lot of what you are shown. A standardized watered down version of "a person" (male or female).
This isn't just in visual presentation... but also in how personalities are written and presented.
In reality though "people are freaks". There is such a huge diversity in every aspect of our bodies (and minds). This isn't a defect.. this isn't "wrong"... it isn't even actually abnormal (you just don't see it, because many feel like they need to hide their differences... that they need to conform and put on an act to fit in with "the guys" or whatever).
Don't be so harsh on yourself :) There is nothing wrong with you... we aren't meant to be all the same... diversity is a GOOD thing. The only time something becomes a "defect' is when it starts to negatively impact our condition... and, well, being trans doesn't negatively impact a person (it is societies judgement of it which does that).
Quote from: Rabbit on January 16, 2012, 04:24:37 AM
Don't be so harsh on yourself :) There is nothing wrong with you... we aren't meant to be all the same... diversity is a GOOD thing. The only time something becomes a "defect' is when it starts to negatively impact our condition... and, well, being trans doesn't negatively impact a person (it is societies judgement of it which does that).
I do not mean any offence at all by this, but telling me I do not have a defect or abnormality will not help me in any way. If I didn't believe within my own world view that I was different, there would be no need to change anything about myself in order to further improve my life, and my ability to survive in this world. Believing there is nothing wrong with a transgender person is the kind of thought process that stops us from accessing much-needed medical treatment.
As to your very final point, I would have to disagree completely. Looking down at myself and seeing a chest and nothing between my legs, where I should have no chest and a penis, is extremely harming to me, and most definitely impacts me negatively. This is not a social construct or other's judgement of my body, it is my own, and it is painful.
I do of course understand the thought behind your post though, and I appreciate the sentiment. :)
People who are intersex have a very broad and diverse range of experience of themselves with regard to gender identity, regardless of their physical attributes.
I think that until there's clear evidence that trangender issues all stem from physical causes (e.g. neurological, biochemical, genetic, etc.) it makes a lot more sense to keep the definitions separate, since the things that intersex people have in common and the things transgender people have in common don't overlap often enough, significantly enough, compared to the differences between intersex and transgender people's experience.
Just thought I'd drop this by, since Kreuzfidel posted it in the guys' section. :)
http://www.changelingaspects.com/Articles/Harry_Benjamins_Syndrome.htm (http://www.changelingaspects.com/Articles/Harry_Benjamins_Syndrome.htm)
http://www.shb-info.org/hbs.html (http://www.shb-info.org/hbs.html)
As there are apparently two threads on this, I guess I might just aswell also re-post my answer in both of them. :laugh:
This is what I wrote in the other duplicate of the Thread;
Funny, I was thinking about this very topic just yesterday.
My opinion, is that Born GID should indeed be included as a Intersex Condition, Not the least, because many HBS-transsexuals do also find themselves to actually have various Intersex Conditions and not seldomly the Klinefelders Condition.
However... As not all transitioners are so called HBS-transsexuals or born transsexuals, then this label could only be applied for a certain type of Transgendersim or Transsexualism, as far from anyone that transitions does it because the person already have a crossgendered Brain, but because they rather are attracted to the idea of living like the desired Sex than already being that Sex, so to speak.
So, as I said, this label could hence not be used as an Umbrella Label for ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism, but only for a certain type of Trans, as there would still be transitioners that transitions only because they wish to possess a body of the Opposite Sex, rather than because they are born transsexuals.
2 different things. Little cross-over in the classical definition of each.
Quote from: JennX on January 16, 2012, 10:35:39 AM
2 different things. Little cross-over in the classical definition of each.
But the classical definition of each is not what's being questioned here; what's being put forward is that the 'true' trans condition is a physical (and therefore intersex), condition.
Intersex: one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs.
If a trans person has a physically male brain, and a physically female body, then that person has both male and female organs. Even by the classical definition, that makes them intersex.
Hi,
I am both trans and IS, and i do consider typical cases of transgender identity and transition (I.e., identifying as the gender opposite one's assigned at birth gender,hormone replacement therapy, and social transition) to usually be a form of intersex. I had to qualify that statement twice though with words like "typically" and "usually". Sex, like gender, is a spectrum, and I think that although trans people are often not visibly intersex prior to taking hormones, that there is evidence that the nuerological differences typical in trans people are a form of sexual variation (intersex). Also, there are cases where trans people have other, undiagnosed, invisible intersex characteristics. Taking hormones absolutely makes one visibly, and undeniably intersex.
Where this gets tricky though is that there are a plethora of complicated emotional, political, cultural, and sexual factors that influence variant gender expression, transgender identity, and the decision to transition. It should also be noted that homosexuality is also frequently associated with sexual variations in neurological make up, as well as variant gender expression without transgender identity, gender transition or visible intersex characteristics. Can this also be considered a form of intersex? I think, by the lose definition of intersex that one uses to include trans people, it can (its interesting to think about where butch lesbian trans women and femme gay trans men fit on this spectrum, to say the least).
Also, despite some overlap in issues that are common to persons who were either born visibly intersex or spontaneously developed intersex characteristics during puberty and transgender identity (such as hormones, surgery, passing, legal issues, and the fact that gender transition is relatively more common amongst the intersexed), it is useful to have the concepts of trans and intersex separate in order to discuss what is different about them (involuntary intersex surgeries, involuntary hormone therapy, the unique issues that affect cis intersex persons like passing as one's assigned at birth gender, etc).
I'm not offended by trans people who were not born visibly intersex and only became visibly intersex via hormones and/or surgery (or not at all) identifying as intersex, but it is still important to me to be able to make a distinction between typical intersex and typical trans experiences. Personally, my intersex identity is more important to me than my trans identity in describing my experiences with sex and gender (and I simply cannot relate to the standard trans narrative as I have socially transitioned without hormones and" pass" better than I did prior to transition), although the unique language of the transgender experience also describes my own experiences in ways a purely intersex narrative cannot.
I mostly agree with you, Bane. However, a difference remains. Intersex people's differences are visible, physical and proved, whilst ours are more subjective and, at the very least, harder to investigate. So while I think that way of thinking is at least partly correct, It's still not okay to call us intersexed in medical terms.
If you're right, then the problem is most probably in the brain - I mean, physically, I don't think there are actual differences visible. However, the brain is a complex structure we still don't understand very well. They still have trouble diagnosing, treating and, above all, explaining mental illnesses that are undeniable and obvious, so imagine our case, where some scientists still contest the very existence of our situation.
Plus, the brain, despite representing our personalities, our very selves (unless some very breaking discoveries are made), is only a fraction of the body, so it's kind of hard to admit EVERYTHING but the brain is wrong. I think ->-bleeped-<- is unique in its status that is hard to define between mental illness and something else. Besides, it would be very new to science if you're right. If it's not a mental illness, what is it? It's not self-immune, it's not neurological... It's more like an incompatibility between the brain and the rest. How would they call that? How would they prove it? It's a complicated situation.
To summarise, I think you're right, but right now, I still think it's sort of fair to treat our situation as a mental illness, since we can't explain it - except with mere unproven hypotheses - otherwise just yet.
Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 10:47:04 AM
But the classical definition of each is not what's being questioned here; what's being put forward is that the 'true' trans condition is a physical (and therefore intersex), condition.
Intersex: one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs.
If a trans person has a physically male brain, and a physically female body, then that person has both male and female organs. Even by the classical definition, that makes them intersex.
Transgendered people do not have reproductive organs (and these are the type of organs they are referring to in the definition above, not your brain, heart, lungs, et al) of undefined sex or a combination of both sexes (ie hermaphrodite). This would classify an individual as inter-sexed. See the difference? We might have the mental characteristics, but lack the anatomy. Now, an inter-sexed person could also be transgendered, but no the other way around.
There are also a plethora of chromosomal disorders that could also be argued one way or the other as well.
Quote from: JennX on January 17, 2012, 12:03:31 AM
Transgendered people do not have reproductive organs (and these are the type of organs they are referring to in the definition above, not your brain, heart, lungs, et al) of undefined sex or a combination of both sexes (ie hermaphrodite).
The definition does not say reproductive organs; it says sexual organs.
Quote from: Bane on January 16, 2012, 10:47:04 AM
Intersex: one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs.
The brain is a sexual organ, so it still meets the criteria.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/374 (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/374)
as I stated in the other thread:
I think it would be more worthwhile to turn the stigma around and show the world that transgenders are not freaks rather than hiding behind another condition, which in no way shape or form, classifies your condition.
If you don't have sexual reproduction ambiguity or "abnormal" sex chromosome pattern then you aren't intersex.
I don't know...call it tough love or whatever, but I find it in poor taste to try to get society to accept you as intersex when you are not.
I am intersex. Transsexualism is a freakin walk in the park compared to the physical struggles I went through growing up (and being transsexual is hard too...i changed genders...i know the hell but its miniscule compared to the physical conditions I suffered from being intersex). I have lost count the many times I was rushed to the hospital because my hormones went out of whack every other year, developing co morbids that were extremely painful, having breasts in junior high school (not the man boobs....real breasts), not dating in high school for fear of sexual discovery.
When a transgender can say "oh im intersex" without even really knowing the hell some of us intersex people went through (because they don't like the word transsexual) is insulting; not to mention the attempt to romanticize the intersex condition.
Also, if we use the brain as an argument proving that transsexuals are intersex since the brain is a sex organ then 100% of every human being on this planet is intersex as everyone has various degrees of femininity and masculinity inherited within their brain. That's not how the diagnosis of intersex works. It's the sexual ambiguity of the sexual reproduction organs (downstairs...not in your head) and or the abnormal sexual traits of the chromosomes. If you wish to change how intersex people are diagnosed then you have to convinced the medical community that you are right....and I even disagree with you.
I think it would be better worthwhile to focus on transsexual traits and turning around the negative social stigmas of the word transsexual than trying to be something you are not.
That sounds a bit elitist to me. Whether one's struggles are simple or difficult should not dictate the validity of a condition, especially one that is so broad.
By technical definition, transsexuality appears to be an intersex condition, however I would concede that by the popular definition, it is not. So, by all means, change your views depending on who you're addressing... perhaps there is more than one solution to this problem of classification.
Quote from: Kelly J. P. on January 17, 2012, 12:58:30 AM
That sounds a bit elitist to me. Whether one's struggles are simple or difficult should not dictate the validity of a condition, especially one that is so broad.
By technical definition, transsexuality appears to be an intersex condition, however I would concede that by the popular definition, it is not. So, by all means, change your views depending on who you're addressing... perhaps there is more than one solution to this problem of classification.
I don't look at it as elitist whatsoever.
Imagine if you suffered through some type of painful sickness. Then you saw someone was exaggerating that same sickness to get others to accept them easier.
I compare it because I had a similiar life threatening illness and I knew someone in college who faked it to get extensions in their courses and got caught. Transsexualism is not intersex. It just isn't unless you are a transsexual and intersex...which I explained earlier does happen).
While the two may seem to be extremes, it's how I see it. If you see it as me being elitist then Im sorry you feel that way.
I understand your beliefs that transsexualism can be intersex but to the current leading medical experts on the condition of intersex, they will disagree. And from my own personal experiences living like this, I have to disagree too.
And trust me...I am not being elitist. If I could live without the conditions I did live, I would have gladly accepted that.
Quote from: Kelly J. P. on January 17, 2012, 12:58:30 AM
That sounds a bit elitist to me. Whether one's struggles are simple or difficult should not dictate the validity of a condition, especially one that is so broad.
By technical definition, transsexuality appears to be an intersex condition, however I would concede that by the popular definition, it is not. So, by all means, change your views depending on who you're addressing... perhaps there is more than one solution to this problem of classification.
Very well said. :)
I'm going to leave this well enough alone now I think, because it's clear we're all just going to have to agree to disagree, but the discussion has been interesting. :)
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 01:05:17 AM
Imagine if you suffered through some type of painful sickness. Then you saw someone was exaggerating that same sickness to get others to accept them easier.
Okay, I'll leave it alone right after this. :P To use my example of cancer again from before, would someone with melanoma be insulted when someone with prostate cancer was diagnosed? No one is saying the two conditions are the same; it doesn't mean they should be treated in the same way, or even by the same doctors or be seen by the medical community to be one and the same thing. But they ARE both cancer.
Quote from: Bishounen on January 16, 2012, 09:35:59 AM
As there are apparently two threads on this, I guess I might just aswell also re-post my answer in both of them. :laugh:
This is what I wrote in the other duplicate of the Thread;
Funny, I was thinking about this very topic just yesterday.
My opinion, is that Born GID should indeed be included as a Intersex Condition, Not the least, because many HBS-transsexuals do also find themselves to actually have various Intersex Conditions and not seldomly the Klinefelders Condition.
However... As not all transitioners are so called HBS-transsexuals or born transsexuals, then this label could only be applied for a certain type of Transgendersim or Transsexualism, as far from anyone that transitions does it because the person already have a crossgendered Brain, but because they rather are attracted to the idea of living like the desired Sex than already being that Sex, so to speak.
So, as I said, this label could hence not be used as an Umbrella Label for ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism, but only for a certain type of Trans, as there would still be transitioners that transitions only because they wish to possess a body of the Opposite Sex, rather than because they are born transsexuals.
Can you provide a reputable reference stating there's a difference? Because, frankly, it seems like a '->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou' attitude.. You keep spouting this idea, but I can't find a reference that supports it..
Quote from: kelly_aus on January 17, 2012, 01:44:16 AM
Because, frankly, it seems like a '->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou' attitude.. You keep spouting this idea, but I can't find a reference that supports it..
I don't think that's what Bishounen is trying to say at all. I believe he's referring to what was once known as a 'true' or 'born' transsexual. This is an irrelevant term now, but once only people who were diagnosed as having this condition were able to access treatment. A 'true' transsexual would mean a person who's gender is binary, but doesn't match their body. As opposed to someone who feels mostly male, or mostly female, but who does not land squarely at one end of the gender continuum or the other. :)
I've always been of the opinion that intersex and transgender are separate and distinct because, textbook definitions aside, intersex conditions are usually typified by genetic anomalies such as surplus, damaged, or missing chromosomes, that often result in genital ambiguities or dysfunctions, while transgender conditions are usually typified by identity anomalies or hormonal anomalies that are contrary to the body's non-anomalous genetic signature (usual XX or XY pairing). I'm not saying one is any "worse" than the other, just that they seem to me to be distinct.
I leave the secondary sexual characteristics out of my definition since they do not necessarily correlate well even in cisgender individuals. For example, Ann Coulter has a rather noticeable adam's apple despite being cisgender.
In other words, intersex = genetically anomalous genetic signature usually with a non-ambiguous gender identity, and transgender = genetically normative genetic signature with a mismatch between gender identity and unambiguous genitalia.
That said, I am not a biologist or psychologist so I may just be innocently and unintentionally blowing smoke.
Saying that Transgender = Intersex is dishonest, at least with our current understanding of the causes of transgender 'issues'.. And simply using it in order to avoid the stigma is just wrong and detracts from the often serious issues Intersex people have.
It's up to us to destigmatise the word transgender or transsexual, by getting out in the world and showing people we are just people, not freaks..
Well I'm sticking with my transgender/transsexual status. Right now, the rights we are fighting for is under that banner. And I see being Intersex as another issue that needs just as much public attention simply because there are babies out there who are surgically mutilated and some of them end up like us. Trapped in the wrong body. Who knows, maybe in time it will be found that the transsexuality is an intersex condition. But in the mean time, I support Annah's thoughts on the matter.
I've sometimes wondered if I had an IS condition myself. But I'm not sure I really want to know, And I dont know if I would care at this point. That would only open up a new can of worms if I was. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:52:41 AM
If you don't have sexual reproduction ambiguity or "abnormal" sex chromosome pattern then you aren't intersex.
I don't know...call it tough love or whatever, but I find it in poor taste to try to get society to accept you as intersex when you are not.
+100 I agree completely.
Quote from: kelly_aus on January 17, 2012, 03:44:57 AM
Saying that Transgender = Intersex is dishonest, at least with our current understanding of the causes of transgender 'issues'.. And simply using it in order to avoid the stigma is just wrong and detracts from the often serious issues Intersex people have.
It's up to us to destigmatise the word transgender or transsexual, by getting out in the world and showing people we are just people, not freaks..
I agree with this also. Combining the two terms just muddies the waters, and does a dis-service to both groups of people.
Quote from: kelly_aus on January 17, 2012, 01:44:16 AM
Can you provide a reputable reference stating there's a difference? Because, frankly, it seems like a '->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou' attitude.. You keep spouting this idea, but I can't find a reference that supports it..
Bane answered it very well. :)
That said, and if you want to see examples of such from a reputable reference, then you just need to stroll around on Susan's to find many evidences of the difference between Born Transsexuals and transitioners that rather wants to
live like a female because they fancy the idea of it(Which there is nothing wrong with at all).
Yes, you have seen it again and again. Everyone have.
Oh and that ->-bleeped-<-r than thou-attidude is
my line. ;D I often use it in my posts simply because I often see examples of that attitude, which I truly loath, as the persons holding the attitude says with their noses in the air that there are only one type of "acceptable" transitioner and people that transitions because of any other reasons, are inappropriate.
In fact, I don't believe that there are a right or wrong reason to transition as every transitioner functions differently and separately from each other and have different needs.
There are merely individuals that have a need to decide for others what to do.
Personally, and as stated many times in other posts, I consider every transitioner just as valid, as long as she/he genuinly transitions to be happier and in harmony with her/himself.
Someone that for instance yearns to merely posses a female body, rather than because s/he already have a female brain and wish to correct the body accordingly as the Born Transsexual, is just as "valid" and rightful to do so, as long as the person do not just want to do so "on a whim".
Sheesh,
* Someone that for instance yearns to merely posses a female body, rather than because s/he already have a female brain and wish to correct the body accordingly as the Born Transsexual, is just as "valid" and rightful to do so, as long as the person do not just want to do so "on a whim". *
I just have no idea how anyone would want to go through all that pain and trouble, just "on whim"... ever.
That is sooo presumptuous... only possible for someone that has not gone through the whole lousy messy process, to immagine.
It makes for these arguments that say, folks do that just so they can have a Man to 'do' them.
O-M-G.
Then how ever just so nice and make it all "valid" in the end. It's just sooo graceful, ain't it, not being considered a freak after all.
Honey, as far as I see it, you are SO way out on a limb.
But then it's your present experience and knowing - so I guess then it's "valid" also, yes?
...
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 17, 2012, 10:49:01 AM
That is sooo presumptuous... only possible for someone that has not gone through the whole lousy messy process, to immagine.
It makes for these arguments that say, folks do that just so they can have a Man to 'do' them.
O-M-G.
Then how ever just so nice and make it all "valid" in the end. It's just sooo graceful, ain't it, not being considered a freak after all.
Honey, as far as I see it, you are SO way out on a limb.
But then it's your present experience and knowing - so I guess then it's "valid" also, yes?
...
Axélle
Hello Axelle.:) Again. ;)
You seem to take this whole issue very personaly, for some reason. How come?
Funny thing is, that you and I have always gotten well along previously at Susan's, and all of the sudden you the last days have been angry and wanted to pick a fight.
Is there something that you want to talk about that I can help you with? If so, then My PM box is always open if you have something saddening your heart that you need to talk with a friend about.
That being said and to go to the matter of your thoughts; Heard of Danielle Berry?
QuoteDespite following the rules and being as honest as I could with the medical folks at each stage, nobody stopped me and said "Are you honest to God absolutely sure this is the ONLY path for you?!" To the contrary, the voices were all cheerfully supportive of my decision. I was fortunate that the web didn't exist then - there are too damn many cheerleaders ready to reassure themselves of their own decision by parading their "successful" surgeries and encouraging others.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fai.eecs.umich.edu%2Fpeople%2Fconway%2FTSsuccesses%2FDaniBuntonBerry.jpg&hash=42359245d9f71ac24d549487cb7a071d16711293)
Quote
I just have no idea how anyone would want to go through all that pain and trouble, just "on whim"... ever.
From Lynn Conway's site, Transsexual Womens Success;
QuoteThen we have those who "change sex" on a whim and have the financial means to do so, then afterwards have regrets and sue everyone in sight who "did this to them" - while not taking any responsibility whatsoever for their own actions.
If you honestly, truly, believe that all people that all people that transitions are HBS-transsexuals, then you need to open up your mind a bit.
I think what Bishounen might be trying to put forward is that there are people who are not completely one gender or the other, and who decide to take hormone treatment, or go through one form of SRS or another, in order to make their body look or feel more like the opposite sex. I know there are people on this forum who do so already. I believe he's trying to say that these people would not be considered 'true' transsexuals, which is correct by the old definition. That does not make their trans experience any less real, but it must be brought up in this discussion in order to differentiate those people from the group of trans people who might be considered intersex. :)
There is a statement on the HBS site that says something similar:
People born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome are persons with a binary gender orientation of either Man or Woman, as any other typical person within society. Their identity is woman or man, never "transsexual". Therefore they need a complete physical rehabilitation in order to function sexually and develop socially as any other individual within our society.
What this is saying is that only those who identify as a binary gender, and who feel the need for complete transition can be considered to have HBS.
Note that transsexualism (ICD-10) and transgender are not the same. Transsexualism is about correction of the phenotypic sex to accord with the sex of the brain and a person who has undergone sex affirmation treatment is simply a member of their affirmed sex. Transgenders, on the other hand, are people who have a psychological identification with, and live intermittently or permanently as members of the opposite sex, but do not actually take steps to correct their sexual morphology.
Here the term transsexual is taken to mean someone with HBS (or a 'true' transsexual), and transgender means everyone else under the trans umbrella. :) In other words, if one does not have that driving, desperate need for complete transition, then they do not have HBS. Obviously, there are a lot of trans people who don't fit into this category of 'true' transsexualism. Again, that does not make them any less trans, or their experiences any less valid. :)
It seem we degenerate into yet another "label fight" methinks.
So we can chew this thing for ever. The long and the short: just be what you are, go pick your label accordingly - or none at all, if you wish. Fine also.
If intersex blows your audience's hair back, well do your thing then.
If you go to a medical situation, hospital, GP, you may just want to fall in with what they understand intersex is for them (formerly hermaphrodite, yes?).
Why and for what reason would you want to call yourself intersex if you transsexual --- that's your own enquiry.
It does have the flavour of a cop-out to me. Like I had nothing to do with it... – mother nature, you see...
Also I still don't buy into this notion that the time you DO actually something about your condition, makes you some more or some less trans. Hm.
All it does, it makes you DIFFERENT trans, OK --- well and THEN so what?!?
If all are equal in the end --- WHY BOTHER TO GRIND ON WITH THOSE DISTINCTIONS?
Late transitioners by that token are MUCH more 'together' then, as they had so much more time to TRY their darntest to 'overcome', and deal with their condition.
MtF, manning up...until the last nail breaks.
The HBS child on the other hand, will have ALL the early support by granny, parents and sundry - ach shame - and so they now may transition even before puberty.
Good for them - if granny and the rest all had it right then. Not always they do either.
Then how about that? And in the end all are equal - even the ones that turn back and say they been bull-->-bleeped-<-ted by their expert advisers.
Life, hum
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 17, 2012, 01:04:38 PM
Why and for what reason would you want to call yourself intersex if you transsexual --- that's your own enquiry.
It does have the flavour of a cop-out to me. Like I had nothing to do with it... – mother nature, you see...
Woah.
Okay I'm sorry, I've been trying to be civil with this whole thing, I really have, and I even said earlier that I would accede and 'agree to disagree' with people on this one, and to back out. But are you
actually implying that this is somehow my fault? That I am somehow to blame for my condition, and that by saying I believe myself to be intersex, I am 'copping out'?
Because I'm sorry, but that has just rubbed me completely the wrong way...while I've been here carefully weighing my words to try my best to be respectful of all of the different parties involved in this debate, and trying so very hard to steer clear of a fight, you're coming out with clearly insulting comments like that?
Quite frankly, you can shove your 'flavour' right up your wazoo.
I have to agree with Bane. I don't like to point out at people, but I really feel Axélle-Michélle is being overly aggressive over here.
Technically I am intersexed because I have Kleinfelters (XXY chromosomes), but I don't have any female sexual parts (that I am aware of) except for slight breast development. The stats I've read state that the majority of people with Kleinfelters are not transexual.
I have been diagnosed with GID (a necessity if you hope to get HRT and SRS) but I feel that my problem is physical - my body does not match my insides. I'm not as concerned about what label that makes me, unless it also makes my life easier.
A migraine is not another word for a bad headache. It is a separate medical classification of a specific condition. If you'd had a migraine, you'd know, because you feel like you are going to die. Unfortunately, the world isn't happy with "bad headache" and instead has decided to appropriate "migraine." It's very irritating, and it makes it far more complicated to explain that I was crippled and entirely unable to function for 2 years, while me and my parents desperately hunted for a solution that would enable me to actually have a life - which meant going to half a hundred specialists of various descriptions and enduring some particularly unpleasant treatments.
However, a migraine will never kill you. It's pretend pain from chemical storms in your brain. A bad headache on the other hand could be say... a brain tumour or a blood clot or any other number of fun things. They also have entirely different treatments - some of which can be rather sucky if you use the wrong one. Like say using sumatriptan on a headache will make you feel nauseous and dizzy and like you just replaced your blood with hot lead. Whereas using sumatriptan on a migraine will make you feel nauseous and dizzy and like you just replaced your blood with hot lead, but it will also get rid of the migraine. Would be best to keep the two separate in my personal opinion.
At this point in time intersex and transsexualism are two separate conditions. Until our doctors decide otherwise, I would strongly suggest using the current diagnosis. Or in other words, I agree with what Annah said. Don't appropriate someone else's condition, it's SO not cool.
Quote from: Sarah7 on January 17, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
A migraine is not another word for a bad headache. It is a separate medical classification of a specific condition.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm getting from your post is another analogy similar to the one I made about cancer before? Except what you've done here is take two conditions that seem similar on a base level, and proven that they are completely seperate from one another. My example was taking two things that seem completely seperate, and proving that they are similar on a base level.
I'm afraid I don't see how your analogy is relevant to the discussion at hand, and I mean no disrespect by saying that. :)
Quote from: Sarah7 on January 17, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
Don't appropriate someone else's condition, it's SO not cool.
As to this, I guess I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I don't think a label as all-encompasing as intersex can really be appropriated in this way. Perhaps if we were trying to claim ownership of a specific form of intersex condition I could understand your anger a little better.
Kia Ora,
::) "Transgender = Intersex?"
::) Whatever rocks ones boat...They are just labels...And to the best of my knowledge I'm not IS, but some people are under the impression I must have been...I don't know and don't care...After all in the long run[the end results the same] it doesn't really matter !
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Bane on January 17, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm getting from your post is another analogy similar to the one I made about cancer before? Except what you've done here is take two conditions that seem similar on a base level, and proven that they are completely seperate from one another. My example was taking two things that seem completely seperate, and proving that they are similar on a base level.
I'm afraid I don't see how your analogy is relevant to the discussion at hand, and I mean no disrespect by saying that. :)
The analogy is relevant because I don't agree that they are both "cancer." We have SOME information about transsexualism, and a few decent theories, but the medical research is in its infancy. We aren't really at the point where we can even say THIS is what transsexualism looks like in the human body with any kind of certainty.
When the situation changes, and personally I believe it will, transsexualism may get reclassified as a type of intersex condition or it may get it's own medical classification. But we aren't at that point yet. And we probably won't get there for at least another 10 years due to the general stigma and lack of interest in investigating transsexualism.
So currently, we are discussing separate classifications, which are diagnosed separately.
QuoteAs to this, I guess I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I don't think a label as all-encompasing as intersex can really be appropriated in this way. Perhaps if we were trying to claim ownership of a specific form of intersex condition I could understand your anger a little better.
Oh I'm not angry, love. I just don't agree. I think "intersex" can be appropriated, in the same way any kind of identity label can be. And I don't feel as if we have sufficient evidence to back up any claim to inclusion at present. It would be different if the intersex folks were welcoming us with open arms or something, but if you want to see some real anger, make this post in an intersex forum.
As I have stated before, I strongly believe that trans is a subcategory of intersex.
Quote from: justmeinoz on January 16, 2012, 02:33:31 AM
One is external the other internal, so the issues faced are similar but not the same.
Wait a minute. There are chromosomal/genetic intersex conditions which show
no outward signs at birth, including:
-XX male (de la Chapelle syndrome)
-Complete AIS, the only sign is a lack of menstruation over a decade later but they have an otherwise normal puberty
There are other conditions which show no signs at birth, but prevent a normal puberty from occurring, such as gonadal dysgenesis. While speaking of "outward signs" then I would say transgender children and teens often exhibit many outward signs. Is not the brain's primary biological function to govern behavior?
Point being: chromosomes and gonads are just as "internal" as the brain.
Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 01:05:17 AM
Transsexualism is not intersex. It just isn't unless you are a transsexual and intersex...which I explained earlier does happen).
You know, if someone's going to claim it's wrong for transsexuals to also identity as intersex, I have a slight problem with the same person thinking that it's ok for intersex people (by popular definition) to also identify as transsexual.
If you're going to 'other' transsexuals, don't then try to lay claim to our identity also, after denying us what you perceive as 'your' identity based on the popular definition of intersexuality. That strikes me as wrong on multiple levels.
Quote from: Sarah7 on January 17, 2012, 03:06:27 PM
The analogy is relevant because I don't agree that they are both "cancer."
Ah, thank you for the clarification. In that case I retract my previous statement. :)
Quote from: Sarah7 on January 17, 2012, 03:06:27 PM
It would be different if the intersex folks were welcoming us with open arms or something, but if you want to see some real anger, make this post in an intersex forum.
I already did, I'm waiting for the backlash as we speak... :P
Quote from: Inanna on January 17, 2012, 03:31:51 PM
You know, if someone's going to claim it's wrong for transsexuals to also identity as intersex, I have a slight problem with the same person thinking that it's ok for intersex people (by popular definition) to also identify as transsexual.
If you're going to 'other' transsexuals, don't then try to lay claim to our identity also, after denying us what you perceive as 'your' identity based on the popular definition of intersexuality. That strikes me as wrong on multiple levels.
I have to say I agree with this completely. Annah, if by your definition intersex people are those who have ambiguouse genitalia or chromosomes, then how can you be trans at the same time, when you see this as a mental disorder with no physical grounds? If you are intersex, then by the standard definitions your gender identity has medical backing, and you're not in the 'trans crackpot' boat with the rest of us, being denied medical treatment.
If you're going to get offended and say I cannot possibly understand the things you've had to deal with, then I feel justified in finding it offensive that you would equate your experience with my own.
Kia Ora,
::) If all trans-people were to label themselves 'Intersex' would this win favour with the general public ? In other words would the general public be more sympathetic to ones plight ? "Ah you poor thing having to live with such a condition-I do hope you can get it 'fixed' !"=This type of sympathy... After all the intersex condition is recognised as a genuine 'medical/congenital' condition...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Bane on January 17, 2012, 03:43:11 PM
I already did, I'm waiting for the backlash as we speak... :P
I find their anger about being associated with transsexuals
very telling.
This was a very interesting read, ty bane! xo
Quote from: Danielle×o on January 17, 2012, 04:56:30 PM
This was a very interesting read, ty bane! xo
You're welcome? :P
Quote from: Inanna on January 17, 2012, 04:49:38 PM
I find their anger about being associated with transsexuals very telling.
I'm having a hard time not being offended by it myself, but that's only going to incite more anger, and turn conversation sour, so I'm trying not to dwell on it. :)
The general public doesn't have a clue what intersex means, so one would have to explain it to each person when mentioning it. Lots of people know what 'hermaphrodite' means in a crude sort of way and of course, it is a term that is discouraged because it is derogatory. People are more familiar with transgender/transsexual than intersex. So thinking it will make it easier just to say 'I have an intersex condition' won't cut it, there will be need for an explanation as to what the term means. Saying 'I was born that way', works with either term though. :)
Quote from: Hermione01 on January 17, 2012, 05:29:04 PM
The general public doesn't have a clue what intersex means, so one would have to explain it to each person when mentioning it. Lots of people know what 'hermaphrodite' means in a crude sort of way and of course, it is a term that is discouraged because it is derogatory. People are more familiar with transgender/transsexual than intersex. So thinking it will make it easier just to say 'I have an intersex condition' won't cut it, there will be need for an explanation as to what the term means. Saying 'I was born that way', works with either term though. :)
In regards to the general public you would be right, but this isn't just about that. If trans people were recognised by the medical community as having an intersex condition then we would be able to access medical treatment a lot more easily, and would no longer have to face being told we're crazy, or that this is a choice.
Quote from: Zenda on January 17, 2012, 03:55:19 PM
Kia Ora,
::) If all trans-people were to label themselves 'Intersex' would this win favour with the general public ? In other words would the general public be more sympathetic to ones plight ? "Ah you poor thing having to live with such a condition-I do hope you can get it 'fixed' !"=This type of sympathy... After all the intersex condition is recognised as a genuine 'medical/congenital' condition...
Metta Zenda :)
Zenda, you, as so often, hit the nail on its head.
Ofcourse, many Transsexuals, however, DO consider their condition to be an Intersex Condition, for the reason that they simply cannot see any other cause for how they have literally felt like one Gender ever since childhood, but nonetheless had the Anatomy of the other Sex, and for these people, I actually do find it not only very plausible, but even nearly a fact, that their condition is in actuality a type of Intersex Condition.
However... It is also apparent that some transsexuals, do, just as you said, want to be collected under the Intersex Umbrella as a safeguard, and only to have something to "blame" their state of being on(Which is fully understandable). For instance, if someone asks; "But why?" then they just have to reply; "Doesn't matter, cuz I'm born like this!".
In short, if the Intersex Label would be taken in usage as an actual, Medical term, then it could only be diagnosed by not only Psychiatric tests but also certain
Medical Tests on the patient in question; Tests developed to match the same biological anomalies that have been found in Scientific research in Transsexuals where the cause is very apparently Biological- Not to those that these anomalies are
not found in and their feelings are strictly Psychological in Nature, although they may feel just as strongly about their Identity as the 'Medical' and Biologically diagnosed type of Transsexual.
So, would it unite or just split up the Community even further?
Personally, I have absolutely no problem with the Label being used for only one type of Transsexual while other "labels" would apply for others, as I think that it would rather make the T-Community even
more diverse and rich, and truly show that everyone, even here, is different, despite at the same time sharing so much in common.
It would be awfully boring if everybody were and felt the exact same wayunder the TG-Umbrella and one single diagnosis applied to everyone.
Quote from: Inanna on January 17, 2012, 03:31:51 PM
You know, if someone's going to claim it's wrong for transsexuals to also identity as intersex, I have a slight problem with the same person thinking that it's ok for intersex people (by popular definition) to also identify as transsexual.
If you're going to 'other' transsexuals, don't then try to lay claim to our identity also, after denying us what you perceive as 'your' identity based on the popular definition of intersexuality. That strikes me as wrong on multiple levels.
I am an intersex person who presented to society as a male and then I transitioned as a presentation as a female. An Intersex person can be both. If you don't like it, complain to the medical and psychological societies....not me.
As far as it stands, if one is a bio female or a bio male and transitions to the other gender it is called transsexual. Not intersex. Sorry you don't like my answer, but until medicine and medical practice and applications change it is what it is.
To say one is intersex to avoid the taboos of the word transsexual is not only offensive to the intersex person but it can be offensive to the transsexual person as well....because the taboo becomes strengthen when a transsexual doesn't like their own diagnoses.
Im done with these series of cloned threads
Quote from: Annah on January 18, 2012, 10:28:30 AMI am an intersex person who presented to society as a male and then I transitioned as a presentation as a female. An Intersex person can be both. If you don't like it, complain to the medical and psychological societies....not me.
As I said before, I'm curious about how this works. Of course you can be trans, and if that's how you identify then I absolutely respect that, but from a purely medical point of view, if you are intersex then your gender identity (no matter which side of the spectrum it is on) has medical backing. Unless I'm missing something here, that puts you in a much stronger possition to justify your identity than the rest of us, as well as (I'm making an assumption here, please correct me if I'm wrong) much easier access to medical intervention and things like insurance coverage.
Quote from: Annah on January 18, 2012, 10:28:30 AM
[clipped]
As far as it stands, if one is a bio female or a bio male and transitions to the other gender it is called transsexual. Not intersex. Sorry you don't like my answer, but until medicine and medical practice and applications change it is what it is.
To say one is intersex to avoid the taboos of the word transsexual is not only offensive to the intersex person but it can be offensive to the transsexual person as well....because the taboo becomes strengthen when a transsexual doesn't like their own diagnoses.
[clipped]
Annah,
I'm COMPLETLY OF YOUR OPINION... maybe you will still read this on here.
And I'm of your opinion for the VERY reasons you explained.
Also I shall leave this stuff aside now, it is of no more value added to me either.
Thanks all,
Axélle
So much hate... Why does there have to be so much tension and undeserved attacks and assumptions of what people think? I'm quite disappointed.
Anyway, off-topic, Bishounen, I'm curious. Why are there Capitals in Your sentences like This? o.o
Quote from: Bishounen on January 18, 2012, 08:07:34 AM
In short, if the Intersex Label would be taken in usage as an actual, Medical term, then it could only be diagnosed by not only Psychiatric tests but also certain Medical Tests on the patient in question; Tests developed to match the same biological anomalies that have been found in Scientific research in Transsexuals where the cause is very apparently Biological- Not to those that these anomalies are not found in and their feelings are strictly Psychological in Nature, although they may feel just as strongly about their Identity as the 'Medical' and Biologically diagnosed type of Transsexual.
So, would it unite or just split up the Community even further?
Scientifically, it would be interesting to see how many transexuals actually have physical anomolies explaining their condition, yet I don't think we have the medical technology to determine this yet. Plus, what if it is a combination of physical and environmental. Environment can trigger genetic markers. Anyway, it would probably open up a whole new can of worms and strengthen the debate about who is and is not a "real" transexual. At this point, all of this talk is hypothetical since we don't have scientific backing, which is required for any theories to be supported by the medical community. Also raises the spectre of what would happen if you could test fetuses for this condition, just like what would happen if you could test fetuses to determine whether they were going to be gay or straight. Another can of worms, especially for a society that still has a long way to go in moral development.
Quote from: A on January 18, 2012, 11:40:21 AM
So much hate... Why does there have to be so much tension and undeserved attacks and assumptions of what people think? I'm quite disappointed.
Yes. Next it will be 'Handbags at dawn'. It's because of in-fighting that I'll more than likely go stealth. Why should I have pride in being transsexual when we can't even unite as a cohesive unit? We'd make a piss poor army. I may be intersex, I don't know. I know I certainly don't fit the usual profile for Transsexual. I'm short, standing at 5'5, little to no adams apple, been told my voice is gender neutral, I get period-like symptoms every month... How I have these symptoms is baffling to me because as far as I know I don't have the organs to make me feel like crap. But to be honest, I don't care.
There is one label that I do fit and do wear with pride: ME
I am happy and proud to finally be me. Anything beyond that is a sub-category. So whatever your opinion over this label war between IS and TS, just wear one label with pride. that you are yourself. Its a long hard road to earn that label. But you earn it and you cannot be denied it.
Quote from: Robertina on January 18, 2012, 11:58:30 AM
Scientifically, it would be interesting to see how many transexuals actually have physical anomolies explaining their condition, yet I don't think we have the medical technology to determine this yet. Plus, what if it is a combination of physical and environmental. Environment can trigger genetic markers. Anyway, it would probably open up a whole new can of worms and strengthen the debate about who is and is not a "real" transexual. At this point, all of this talk is hypothetical since we don't have scientific backing, which is required for any theories to be supported by the medical community. Also raises the spectre of what would happen if you could test fetuses for this condition, just like what would happen if you could test fetuses to determine whether they were going to be gay or straight. Another can of worms, especially for a society that still has a long way to go in moral development.
I believe that it may be only physical, only enviromental or both physical and enviromental depending from case to case.
As for the question whether it would be possible to test Fetuses for "this", I have actually pondered about that stuff aswell, and whether it would one day be possible(Which I think it will, atleast to a extent), to check if a fetus have "The HBS-Condition", or whatever they would coin it, and what it could mean.
Doubtless, a lot of fetuses would be aborted, to "Spare the sufferring". Probably many would view the unborn child as many people would view a fetus with Down's; As a "poor freak", or the like.
Then there is also the scenario of if this would perhaps somehow and eventually be treatable with Biotechnology and the Fetus, before a specific age, could be "cured".
That is also a somewhat unsettling scenario, as the appliers of the "cure", would actually change and decide the personality of someone, or how to word it.
There are many other questions that would arise aswell, that would be both unnerving aswell as, ofcouse, also having potentiall benefits if used correctly(Such as early treatment and preparation of the Family on the matter).
About the Scientific Evidence and the scenario being hypothetical, I think I must disagree, as I believe that the matter is rather
Theoretical than Hypothetical, as many new Scientific findings on Biological causes(For atleast some) have been made only during the later years aswell as discussions on how to view Transsexualism.
Quote from: A on January 18, 2012, 11:40:21 AM
Anyway, off-topic, Bishounen, I'm curious. Why are there Capitals in Your sentences like This? o.o
Where? How do you mean?o,o
Quote from: Bishounen on January 18, 2012, 08:07:34 AM
Zenda, you, as so often, hit the nail on its head.
Ofcourse, many Transsexuals, however, DO consider their condition to be an Intersex Condition, for the reason that they simply cannot see any other cause for how they have literally felt like one Gender ever since childhood, but nonetheless had the Anatomy of the other Sex, and for these people, I actually do find it not only very plausible, but even nearly a fact, that their condition is in actuality a type of Intersex Condition.
However... It is also apparent that some transsexuals, do, just as you said, want to be collected under the Intersex Umbrella as a safeguard, and only to have something to "blame" their state of being on(Which is fully understandable). For instance, if someone asks; "But why?" then they just have to reply; "Doesn't matter, cuz I'm born like this!".
In short, if the Intersex Label would be taken in usage as an actual, Medical term, then it could only be diagnosed by not only Psychiatric tests but also certain Medical Tests on the patient in question; Tests developed to match the same biological anomalies that have been found in Scientific research in Transsexuals where the cause is very apparently Biological- Not to those that these anomalies are not found in and their feelings are strictly Psychological in Nature, although they may feel just as strongly about their Identity as the 'Medical' and Biologically diagnosed type of Transsexual.
So, would it unite or just split up the Community even further?
Personally, I have absolutely no problem with the Label being used for only one type of Transsexual while other "labels" would apply for others, as I think that it would rather make the T-Community even more diverse and rich, and truly show that everyone, even here, is different, despite at the same time sharing so much in common.
It would be awfully boring if everybody were and felt the exact same wayunder the TG-Umbrella and one single diagnosis applied to everyone.
Underlined a few.
Keaira: I even have a lot of trouble understanding the very concept of pride in some areas... "I'm proud to be trans!" - "What, you're proud of having been unhappy for a birth defect, having suffered, having remaining masculine traits, and being unable to reproduce?"... "I'm proud to be gay!" - "What, you're proud of being yourself? What about being proud of having brown eyes?" It doesn't make sense... I mean, pride, in theory, is felt about something you feel is good, or better than the rest. Being proud of being what you are feels weird. I'd understand being proud of having transitioned instead of staying in unhappiness, or being proud of not letting oneself be put down by homophobia, but it'S not like being trans or gay is in any way superior to cis-ness and straight-ness...
And here I go rambling about something useless and unrelated.
Anyway, I don't really feel bad about a "can of worms" being opened. Scientists aren't fools. They wouldn't base themselves off physical examinations only until they're sure about what they're doing. Nor do I concern myself with changing a baby's personality. In the womb, personality is not formed yet, and I'm pretty sure 90% of it could still be entirely changed depending on environmental factors during pregnancy and infance, regardless of any doctor's interention. Doing such a thing would just make the child, and everyone, happier.
A: I honestly do not understand how my post can look like that from your place, as I have NOT underlined any word at all in that post whatsoever. ???
Extremely odd.
Quote from: Bishounen on January 18, 2012, 12:55:50 PM
A: I honestly do not understand how my post can look like that from your place, as I have NOT underlined any word at all in that post whatsoever. ???
Extremely odd.
Hahaha, Bishounen she underlined the words you capitalised, in answer to you saying you didn't see any. :)
Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 01:16:44 PM
Hahaha, Bishounen she underlined the words you capitalised, in answer to you saying you didn't see any. :)
Well, I did not Capitalise the underlined words either. ???
I did, however, capitalise
some words, but definitely not those underlined. ???
Quote from: A on January 18, 2012, 12:49:28 PM
Keaira: I even have a lot of trouble understanding the very concept of pride in some areas... "I'm proud to be trans!" - "What, you're proud of having been unhappy for a birth defect, having suffered, having remaining masculine traits, and being unable to reproduce?"... "I'm proud to be gay!" - "What, you're proud of being yourself? What about being proud of having brown eyes?" It doesn't make sense... I mean, pride, in theory, is felt about something you feel is good, or better than the rest. Being proud of being what you are feels weird. I'd understand being proud of having transitioned instead of staying in unhappiness, or being proud of not letting oneself be put down by homophobia, but it'S not like being trans or gay is in any way superior to cis-ness and straight-ness...
There are people who are 'out and proud'. Take Chaz Bono for example. He's pretty open about it and he is certainly giving Joe Public some exposure to the trans community. I used to answer questions people had at work openly. But I've had some bad experiences there that have made me reconsider. Before I might have answered someones question as far as my surgery status and then explain what the surgery entails. I now tell them that to us, that's considered akin to asking a woman "Can I see your vagina?" and so I wont disclose. And to be honest, if they really want to know, they can go do the research and figure it out. I mean I took 4 days off last year and when I came back I was asked by a couple of people, "So how did your surgery go?"
4 days? I mean come on. I'd be lucky to walk again in 4 days and not look like I was in the saddle too long doing it. So some people think I've had SRS. which I could care less about. I just want to live my life and not have to fight for every little thing cis-gendered people take for granted.
I take the whole "proud" thing as being shorthand for "I'm proud that I'm not ashamed, in spite of some of the world's best efforts to persuade me I should be."
I'm not proud of being trans and bi, I'm proud of no longer being ashamed to be trans and bi.
Bishounen: I swear I didn't change your post's capitals. But anyway, just forget it; it's not like it actually matters.
Padma: Makes sense. But in that case, I demand that Gay Pride is renamed Gay Pride of Not Being Ashamed Despite What You Say. What? Whaddya mean it won't fit on the flags?
Quote from: Padma on January 18, 2012, 06:25:19 PM
I take the whole "proud" thing as being shorthand for "I'm proud that I'm not ashamed, in spite of some of the world's best efforts to persuade me I should be."
I'm not proud of being trans and bi, I'm proud of no longer being ashamed to be trans and bi.
Definitely worthy of pride. ^_^
I am proud to be me.
Quote from: A on January 18, 2012, 06:59:52 PM
Padma: Makes sense. But in that case, I demand that Gay Pride is renamed Gay Pride of Not Being Ashamed Despite What You Say. What? Whaddya mean it won't fit on the flags?
Erm... shorthand? ;D
I'm not angry at anyone here, but I still think to call transsexualism intersex has a flavour for a "cop-out".
And to say it again: The reason for this notion is... that some folks appropriate the idea or condition of transsexualism to a "life-style" or a "choice".
Now if you have to deal with people that are of this mind-set you will have two VERY different reactions to being either intersex (no choice here, i.e. it's not your fault) or transsexual (you exercised a CHOICE, i.e. it's your fault - if not accepted/pass/etc.)
Maybe that will make it a bit clearer - it is the MOTIVATION that is be behind this idea of re-assigning our trans condition to an inter condition.
It is for that reason that I happen to agree with Annah's take - and incidentally the take of the medical profession as it stands at present.
Axélle
On the proud-thing, I have to answer with what I wrote in the "Are you proud of being Transgender-Thread;
"Yes(I am proud).
Although I would perhaps rather call me 'Gendervarianted', I am very proud of it, and also thankful- Nowadays, as it have enriched my life, my Intellect and my Conception of things, and tought me things in ways that had not been possible if I had not been the way I now am."
So yes, nowadays I am indeed proud of being this way, for it is not only responsible for who I actually am, but also the actual"Me", so to speak.
It is funny; Earlier, I thought of it as a curse and asked myself "Why" and dreamt about how it would have been if I was "Normal"- Nowadays, however, I even 'Shuther' at the idea of if that had actually been the case and I had been -quote- "Normal".
I am nowadays very thankful for being this way and think of it as an actual gift and a privilege.
Not the least, because being this way enables you to truly know whether someone genuinly loves you for being you and whether the person is a truly accepting person, or if they just "love" you with a quote but in reality is narrowminded about everything- You just wouldn't been able to know it if you had been "Normal".
I will not pretend that I am not very demanding myself regarding how my partner "should" be, but I think the reader knows what I am getting at.
I do not consider it a disease or affliction, as some other TG's do, but just a variation.
Although I can indeed very much understand those that truly feel that they have a disease/affliction, and especially so if they truly suffer from their bodies and also have extremely Sex-characteristic bodies that is just not part of them in any way.
My friend Werner (Venha) Van Helmut Steinert a 46 year old man thinks I should have been a girl.
Just because I am transgender, my friend Billy 36 year old thinks I'm great, and I look great (to him I'm hot and doing a good job with my looks)
I like just dressing the way I want to, it feels natural I guess. While my aunt thought I was possessed by a demon once, that was a jaw dropping experience...
She tried to exercise me! No joke, she was yelling Bible quotes of doubtful accuracy at me, I couldn't help, but to laugh and leave the house.
I like being seen as a girl, it's a nice change from being seen as "Thomas, that kid in the dress."
I totally agree that it is very likely that trans will one day be shown to be "in the brain." I know tons of LGBT people (and am queer myself), & with most of them it was evident since childhood. There is already some proof of a "gay gene," for example.
That said, I'm DEEPLY concerned about people trying to change the definition of intersex to say that trans is a "type of intersex condition." For ethical reasons & out of respect to trans people, I would never, as a non-trans person, seek to change the definition of trans -- especially w/o consulting trans people or against their will. Even more importantly, if our definition is changed , intersex people, particularly infants & children, will suffer even more than we already do. Intersex infants are operated on w/o their consent every hour b/c of physical differences that are visible. Even in the cases where the differences are not evident at birth b/c they are chromosomal, for example, we are STILL discriminated against, tortured, &/or stripped of our rights if/when this difference is discovered. This is evidenced by all the Olympic intersex athletes who were stripped of medals & denied the right to compete when a simple swab of the mouth for a chromosome test revealed that they were intersex (some of them ended up committing suicide as a result.) After these chromosome tests stopped, there have still been cases like that of Caster Semenya, who was accused of not being a woman & denied the right to compete during her "gender verification testing." She has not publicly revealed whether or not she is intersex, but one can assume that she is b/c it would have quickly been revealed with all the medical tests she was forced to undergo if she had been a non-intersex male or female. It seems she did not even know she was intersex herself but was publicly outed at the age of only 18 & was on suicide watch as a result. Even now that she has been allowed to compete, the rumor is that she was forced to take estrogen -- which she had never wanted to do -- in order to do so. As a result of my activism I was invited to be a expert panelist at the International Olympic Committee meeting on the topic of intersex women in competition. One of the arguments they tried to make is that there is already a structure in place for trans athletes to compete --where they have to medically demonstrate that they have transitioned enough to compete as their chosen sex -- so intersex people can just use the same one. They were trying to conflate intersex with trans to make it easier for them to deal with us despite the huge difference that trans athletes CHOSE to make whatever changes they made to their body -- they are not being forced into changing their body by athletic committees.
These are just a few examples which show the very real dangers & discrimination that intersex people are subjected to b/c our differences can be physically shown. Trans people are not vulnerable to these types of abuses because something "in the brain" cannot be revealed with medical tests.
Intersex people are struggling to get the right to do what we want, if anything, to our bodies--- a right which trans people already have, as everyone should -- & to attain the legal rights & protections that trans people already have in may countries. I do not think this is your objective, but you should understand that trying to change our definition directly works against intersex people & our struggle for human rights & autonomy over our bodies. It confuses people, most of which are already confused about what intersex is anyway. To this day, the majority of intersex people are not even out b/c it is such a personal thing to reveal (often pertaining to atypical genitals or sex organs), b/c our culture is SO attached to this idea of only "male" or "female" existing that it is psychologically difficult (as well as sometimes dangerous) to come out as something other than that, &/or because they are so traumatized by all the nonconsensual medical "normalizing treatments" they received as children.
As I said earlier, being gay/lesbian can also be said to be "in the brain." However, gays & lesbians are not trying to say they are intersex or change the definition of intersex to include them. Many have even argued, rightfully so, that although the "gay gene" theory is interesting, gays/lesbians shouldn't have to "prove" that it's something they're born with in order to not be discriminated against.
It is very easy for trans people to simply say that trans is something in the brain that one is born with, just as some gay people do. There is no reason to appropriate the intersex label/definition to do this.
Simply put, intersex people are not even "on the map" yet when it comes to people understanding what we are. Confusing people about what we are now, before we have even established ourselves within society, just makes it easier to make us surgically disappear. This is evidenced by a recent medical article by the American Assoc of Endocrinologists & Gynecologists that called intersex a subcategory of trans. They know better than most that we are not, but if they do this, call us trans, it makes their abuses easier to get away with b/c instead of having to admit that it is wrong to operate on someone's genitals against their will, if an intersex child grows up & says they don't like what was done to them or don't feel they are the sex they were surgically assigned to be, well then the medical establishment can just say, "oh, we didn't do anything wrong, you're just trans." And again, intersex gets disappeared.
Please do not facilitate the abuses against intersex people. Let intersex be intersex as we let trans be trans. We are comrades in the struggle against gender-variant phobia and should respect each other's needs as such. Thank you.
Hida Viloria, Chairperson, Organisation Intersex International
Quote from: tweener on January 25, 2012, 11:39:27 PM
That said, I'm DEEPLY concerned about people trying to change the definition of intersex to say that trans is a "type of intersex condition."
Intersex people are struggling to get the right to do what we want, if anything, to our bodies--- a right which trans people already have, as everyone should -- & to attain the legal rights & protections that trans people already have in may countries. I do not think this is your objective, but you should understand that trying to change our definition directly works against intersex people & our struggle for human rights & autonomy over our bodies.
First of all, I was not suggesting changing the definition of the intersex condition at all, but of changing the trans definition, which renders a lot of your points moot.
Secondly,
am I allowed to do what I want with my body? Because I'm fairly certain I've spent years now fighting for that right, and being denied it by the medical community. Now I'll be the first to admit I'm in the dark about intersex rights, so I can't comment on that, but I certainly know my own, and to say that I have the right to do with my body as I please, and am privy to legal rights and protection is
way off. I
should be, just like you should, but that doesn't make it so.
This said I respect your opinion on the matter, and thank you for the informative post. :)
This is only my opinion, but I think you should be using your efforts to strengthen the public image of transsexualism than to try to create additional definitions to the word Intersex.
This thread has run it's course imo.
Meh. To be honest, I don't want to have another label stuck to me. I mean I've wondered if I'm intersexed. I get period pains every month, no adams apple, 5'5, gender neutral voice. Why the heck do I seem to not fit the typical trans mold? But I don't see any benefit to finding out. Until science actually says that transsexuality falls under the IS category, I'm happy with having the two different groups being separate. But I'm also happy to support the IS community because we do face some similar struggles and some that are unique to our respective groups.
Quote from: Rabbit on January 16, 2012, 04:24:37 AM
Don't be so harsh on yourself :) There is nothing wrong with you... we aren't meant to be all the same... diversity is a GOOD thing. The only time something becomes a "defect' is when it starts to negatively impact our condition... and, well, being trans doesn't negatively impact a person (it is societies judgement of it which does that).
I know this is back tracking to like the first page but...
"Being trans" does impact negatively on my person, I complete self loathing from my features, my body, a great disdain for my genitals where I've been to the point of self harm over, a daily occurring feeling of my body being wrong that crushes my every possible moments of joy into the ground. This complete disconnect between my body and my mind.
For me having gender dysphoria has been such a negative experience without societies judgments that I can't view it as anything but a defect, like the OP.
Though I can't even begin to think of myself as "trans", to me I am a girl, a girl with a birth defect of the wrong genitals and chromosomes.
Kia Ora,
::) Just out of interest, do adult people with a recognised 'intersex' condition have to jump through the same hoops as people who were born 'transsexual', for example when it comes to counselling and psych assessments, RLE, etc before being allowed/eligible for surgery?
::) What I'm getting at, is it easier for intersex people to transition ? In other words not so much red tape ?
Metta Zenda :)
I honestly never thought about that.
Quote from: Keaira on January 28, 2012, 02:29:34 AM
I honestly never thought about that.
Kia Ora Keaira,
::) It would be interesting to compare the difference -if there is any difference in the way intersex and transex people are treated that is...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on January 28, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
Kia Ora Keaira,
::) It would be interesting to compare the difference -if there is any difference in the way intersex and transex people are treated that is...
Metta Zenda :)
It would. When I go see my doctor in March I am going to see if I can get some tests done. I may have Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome
Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome is a condition where a male has a uterus (typically small and underdeveloped) and/or other female gonadal material. The external genitalia and chromosomal structure (XY) reflect typical male development. The condition is typically diagnosed through pelvic ultrasound, MRI, or abdominal surgery for some other purpose later in life.
Which may be the cause for my period-like symptoms. Or Irritable Man Syndrome. Whatever the heck is causing it, I'll be happy with answers. I also wonder if that will change things about my treatment.
Kia Ora Keaira,
::) I've just googled Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome, blimey how many intersex conditions are there ?
::) I remember being checked out by my endocrinologist and him rattling on about something about my thyroid gland, my height[I'm 160cm] and my lack of an Adam's apple and minimal body hair...I didn't think much of it at the time...For quite a while I was under the impression intersex people could not have children, it was only in the last few years I found out some could...Still for me it's no longer an issue, my transition is well and truly over...
Metta Zenda :)
Kia Ora Zenda,
What did your doctor find?
I am diverging this thread from it's original intent. I'm sorry. We should try to stay on topic. I have a thread in which PMDS has been mentioned.
I just recently found that I am IS. How it has taken this long to find this out is beyond me... Whatever though. And, this is long after knowing that i'm TG. What does this mean? Like Keaira said, not much. The only major difference is that it makes things far more complicated. I've just tried to explain it to my parents, and they're completely lost.
@ Zenda, people have heard of transsexual before... most people, including doctors, have no idea what involves being intersexed. So, I doubt it.
I can see where you are coming from though, OP. I think IS and TG in many occasions go hand-in-hand, but I'm not so sure it should be added to the IS category.
If I do have PMDS, does that move me to the IS group with TS as a subgroup? Or the other way round? Which one comes first since both occur on the womb?
I guess what I'm trying to say is, that if I had to explain my medical history would I say, " I was born intersex but I corrected my body to match my gender" or would I tell them " I'm an MtF who later discovered she was intersex."
Which category from a medical standpoint is the more important?